I don't like losing my deadly poison stack to envenom
Considering with Mutilate you will almost instantly have another Deadly Poison up the second you use Envenom, and the fact that Envenom FAR outdamages Eviscerate, I definitely recommend using Envenom over Eviscerate when you have the opportunity.
As for Cold Blood - Mutilate, try doing a 5cp, 5 Deadly Poison stack Cold Blood Envenom. You are wasting CB by using it with mutilate since only one dagger gets the crit bonus on your attack.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
you haven't used cb->mute enough obviously
because it has double crit every time I have used it
I have used it hundreds and hundreds of times
I just feel like I get more benefit from mutilate critting than eviscerate critting.
Lethality and seal fate and all that
Now I don't have said poison talents but envenom simply does less damage when I test it. I guess I'll test it more often and apply what the talents would do to it. Enough people say envenom is great I must be doing something wrong.
But man my mutilate does like 3000 damage when both hands crit (and they always do with cb)
Everything you stated above is wrong. I'm not going to dig up the post, but I specifically remember reading a blue response back in the day (when Mutilate was first getting implimented) that stated explicitely that Cold Blood only affected your mainhand attack since Mutilate is considered two seperate attacks. Unless someone here can point me to some patch notes that clearly says Cold Blood affects both attacks with Mutilate, I call BS on your "Always crits both attacks" comment.
Everything you stated above is wrong. I'm not going to dig up the post, but I specifically remember reading a blue response back in the day (when Mutilate was first getting implimented) that stated explicitely that Cold Blood only affected your mainhand attack since Mutilate is considered two seperate attacks. Unless someone here can point me to some patch notes that clearly says Cold Blood affects both attacks with Mutilate, I call BS on your "Always crits both attacks" comment.
I remember using CB in all those fights. It makes both hits crit.
It was that if your MH crit with cold blood, and your OH didn't hit because your target was dead, your OH would retain the cold blood. I think that's what they fixed.
It was that if your MH crit with cold blood, and your OH didn't hit because your target was dead, your OH would retain the cold blood. I think that's what they fixed.
This was back in the days of implimentation, people were picking apart the Mutilate Skill, and the big question everyone had was "Does Cold Blood affect both attacks"? The Blue response was that no it does not because Mutilate is considered two seperate attacks, therefore Coldblood only affects one of the two. Maybe they changed it upon implimentation and never said anything, but I never use CB with Mutilate because of that and I'm kind of pissed that I went this long not knowing about it being fixed.
Yeah, I always get 2 crits on Mutilate with CB too.
And all those who say evis > envenom are either very unlucky with poison procs, or haven't tried it. Back when I first got envenom I felt the same way, that there wasn't any point in using it since it removed deadly poison. Now I've pretty much removed eviscerate. Even with raid buffs and improved evis I never saw more than 2.1 crit in PvE, and hit for about 1.1.
In comparison, 2 more talents that also gets me more poison damage, makes my envenom much stronger. I've never hit a 5 point envenom for less than 1.5k, and with lots of AP buffs and/or stormstrike I usually HIT for 1800. Crits are always 2.9k +, almost never below 3k. Last Gruul run, using only envenom and SnD, I only used a non-poisoned mutilate once as far as I can remember, and that was with instant OH. When I run double deadly, even with 0/5 imp. poisons, I normally get a 5 stack in the time it takes me to get energy for another mutilate and envenom. I've noticed a significant boost in dps since I started using it. + It's better for the e-peen.
Although envenom is well worth it over evis, especially if you have 5/5 on both poison talents, it's stormstrike that makes it shine. Almost NOTHING else uses SS charges, half the time both will expire, other half the shammy tosses in an earthshock for good measure, although it's very inefficient. It's a free 20% boost to your finisher. Even with near 0 buffs (1853 AP) I crit for 3.4 - 3.5k with it.
I have to admit, I wonder about it being practical and the talents that boost it boost your DPS overall anyways, I just wonder about letting deadly hitting that 5 stack and then instantly removing it. It seems pretty cool to use, it's just I pvp a lot and don't see it being as handy as Eviscerate is on squishy targets.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited April 2007
envenom is not worth it in pvp
and you will never even use deadly in the arena
Is PvPing against warriors / hunters / locks, etc really as bad as Ming makes it out on his website?
in arena, warriors are just stupid broken
keeping in mind mt 2v2 partner lacks experience as a paladin, on top of gear, so I'm not facing ultra-geared teams
however I am in Bloodlust bg, so I do face avid pvpers
locks that know what to do are very, very nasty and are almost impossible to burst down, but they are manageble
hunters that are bm and have a good partner are almost unkillable, RED PET is just about the most horrible thing for a rogue ever, any other spec is not difficult at all
warriors with a shaman/paladin/priest can fuck off and die
just
fuck
fuck warriors square in the fucking ass
rogues have lots of problems overall in the arena because they have to balance survivability with damage while classes like warriors and locks don't
Is PvPing against warriors / hunters / locks, etc really as bad as Ming makes it out on his website?
Warriors yes, Hunters and Locks, not as much.
If I see a Warrior, i'll just go the other direction, it isn't even worth it. If the guy has even an ounce of skill he will wipe the floor with your face. Same goes for Pallies and Shaman, they have too much armor and can heal through all of my damage without much trouble, it's just not worth the trouble to even attempt to solo them.
As for Hunters, if they get the jump on me, yeah it's game over unless I run for it. If I get the jump I can usually win the fight. Same with Warlocks, cept now with CloS I still have a chance even if they see me first.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited April 2007
you know what I love?
Can opener warriors.
know why?
I know ahead of time that they are fucking terrible and I will kill them easily.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
in arenas, where you don't have the time to bleed out a warrior they are a real pain.
warrior/paladin is pretty much impossible for my warlock/rogue 2v2. warrior/shaman really isn't a problem if i kill the poison cleansing totem, blind and then throw some hurt on the warrior, or if the shaman is bad i can just sap him then blind when sap breaks.
i can absolutely not kill a resto shaman until he runs out of mana. it's just.. ridiculous.
Warr/pala in 2v2 is a pain, probably one of the most broken matchups. Warr/shammy/pala in 3v3 is also stupid, have a good one in our BG, and only beat it once in about 8 fights, all the others ending 3 - 0 to them. They are better rated than us, but still.
Locks are in somewhat the same situation as us, the less players the stronger they are. Not a huge problem in my experience, although I'm lucky enough to have one of the best/best geared locks in the battlegroup on my team. I haven't really fought hunters 2v2, but they're ridiculously easy to kill in 3v3, even when BM. Can only remember one time a hunter's actually done much against us (running lock/rogue/pala or priest).
Envenom is useless in PvP because wound is win. And even if you got 5 deadly on, it's only worth it aganst plate/mail, and then only if it'll kill them, otherwise rupture is probably better.
Since BC came out I've NEVER beaten an arms warr when starting out of stealth. I also have less than 30% win when I get opener. It's like a nightmare, I know I'm fairly good at PvP, have at least 60% win rate against pretty much every other class, and it annoys me to no end when people say warrs are easy. It's not like they're all geared/skilled either, maybe I just have bad luck For the record, I had pretty much flawless in duels/1v1 against all warrs pre BC, unless they were dwarf or outgeared me.
Resto shammies are impossible in group fights (which is the problem with the warr/shammy/pally matchup. No CC or slow, warrs are stupid good dps, and we can't kill healers. Our one win we somehow managed to burn down and kill the warr, probably just luck), but IMO they're ridiculously easy in 1v1.
Need to get a new 2v2 team, been ages since I did that, and I really miss it
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
it's funny. i played my arms warrior for so long, and would laugh at all the rogues. especially back in the arcanite reaper days, two shotting bitches all day long. now i sit on the other side and cry.
i fought this little gnome fucker once. i played it about as perfect as i could i think. did like 85% damage before i was even hit. he then hit for 2500, 2000 and then 2500 and i died (deep wounds ticked off a ridiculous amount of my hp.)
Sure, I'm just 39, but I fucking love dotting warriors to death with garrote, 5x deadly poison and a 4-point rupture. That + autoattacks and SS = me running to the next target, leaving them behind bleeding out on the ground.
Yeah, it's still fun at 70. Difference is that when the running starts, they intercept, hamstring, and crit you for at LEAST 50% of your hp before you're out of intercept stun
Yeah, it's still fun at 70. Difference is that when the running starts, they intercept, hamstring, and crit you for at LEAST 50% of your hp before you're out of intercept stun
Intercept > MS > Overpower > OLOLyourdeadinunder5seconds
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Sure, I'm just 39, but I fucking love dotting warriors to death with garrote, 5x deadly poison and a 4-point rupture. That + autoattacks and SS = me running to the next target, leaving them behind bleeding out on the ground.
that stops when the warrior has a 110 dps weapon and 10k hp
also you don't die in 5 seconds if you have 9k hp
PiptheFair on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
Sure, I'm just 39, but I fucking love dotting warriors to death with garrote, 5x deadly poison and a 4-point rupture. That + autoattacks and SS = me running to the next target, leaving them behind bleeding out on the ground.
that stops when the warrior has a 110 dps weapon and 10k hp
also you don't die in 5 seconds if you have 9k hp
2.5k ms, 2k autoswing, 2.2k whirlwind, 2k autoswing. that's a 5 second span and it's happened to me. add in deep wounds ticking for over 200.
Well, firstly your best bet for a dagger is either Whispering Blade of Slaying from Murmur, who also drops Ass pants, or failing that just buy a Ced's Carver. Get Warp Splinters Thorn from the Warp Splinter in Bot as an oh. It's the best non-epic oh you can get for the most part.
Next, your talent build is a little confusing. I can't really tell if you're going for pvp or pve.
Also, go to Shadowmoon Valley and do the Gorefiends armor line to get your Stealther's Helm of Second Sight. It's a fantastic hat for both pve and pvp.
Your cloak is good for, but Delicate Green Poncho from Nagrand is much better for pve purposes.
Find a group to chain kill the first 2 bosses in Mana Tombs when you have the buff to get you enough Shards to buy Excorcists Band, also you can get the quest to kill Kargath in Shattered Halls to get a hella nice ring whose alliance name I forget.
Get the Spymistress's Bracers for pve and Marshalls for pvp. Those should start you off for now.
Well, firstly your best bet for a dagger is either Whispering Blade of Slaying from Murmur, who also drops Ass pants, or failing that just buy a Ced's Carver. Get Warp Splinters Thorn from the Warp Splinter in Bot as an oh. It's the best non-epic oh you can get for the most part.
Next, your talent build is a little confusing. I can't really tell if you're going for pvp or pve.
Also, go to Shadowmoon Valley and do the Gorefiends armor line to get your Stealther's Helm of Second Sight. It's a fantastic hat for both pve and pvp.
Your cloak is good for, but Delicate Green Poncho from Nagrand is much better for pve purposes.
Find a group to chain kill the first 2 bosses in Mana Tombs when you have the buff to get you enough Shards to buy Excorcists Band, also you can get the quest to kill Kargath in Shattered Halls to get a hella nice ring whose alliance name I forget.
Get the Spymistress's Bracers for pve and Marshalls for pvp. Those should start you off for now.
Ok excellent, thankyou.
My build - i was basically trying to get as much DPS out of it without losing my awesome sutblety talents and my other bag o' tricks. And i wanted a PVP/PVE balance.
When we (hopefully) get a free respec on the next patch i will probably respec for higher DPS. I don't know what to go for though. Never tried Hemo. Never strayed past the first couple of talents in Combat. I am totally clueless as to what to do here also.
- i got the Ass pants from Murmur as you can see, Helm of second sight is my next target then.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited May 2007
don't try to balance pve with pvp in your build unless you spec hemo
it just does not work
With regards to arena, I think the only problems I ever have are with warriors and feral druids that can bear form and kick my ass. Oh, and demo locks. Every other class is a gigantic pushover, even with my subpar daggers >D
If you are a good rogue, and have good gear, you can go hemo and do great in raids and pvp. The only problem is, you can do so much better in pve if you go some combat variation. Now, for me, I can't do it because I needs me some pvp. When we progress into Serpentshrine I will probably give in, but I pull my own weight right now.
I have a hard time believing you can get top dps on more than one or two gimmick encounters with a hemo build unless you seriously outgear/skill the locks/spriests in your guild. Before BC I could top damage with hemo, and completely dominate with combat swords, but now I only top meters in about half the bossfights, and that's with combat swords/mutilate. I tried raiding with hemo, but my damage dropped a LOT, over 100 dps. Any good mage should also outdamage you. Pretty much any class would crush you on Gruul. Great for 5-man and PvP though.
They are nerfing the tailored sets, so locks/spriests should do less dps than before. Add glancing change and less running out/healing from cleaves, and we're set for nr 1!
So I'm sitting at 193 hit rating in my PvE gear, and which was.. I forget, 12%-ish increased chance to hit. 2.1 will be granting me 203 when it hits, assuming I don't upgrade my shoulders by then (I'll get the best of you someday, chess event) so I'm wondering where I should start tapering off and not going as crazy for +hit as I do right now. Anyone have any projected numbers or anything on that?
300, which gives you just over 24% hit with precision. I actually beieve you need 308 or 315 to get 0% miss, but that's only against lvl 73, and I'd rather get AP/crit at that point.
Until you reach 300, hit is better than crit point for point (unless you're mutilate with low crit), but prefer balancing stats. Assuming your sig profile is correct I'd work on AP for now, personally my goal (in the far future) is 200 hit, 8k hp, 1550 AP and 25% crit, currently lack about 50 hit, 65 stam and 2% crit, but I still use blues (Master's Threads even, got my shoulders though!) and lack some enchants. I recognize that hit is the best stat, but it's so hard to notice the difference that I tend to sacrifice it for other things >>.
With your stats I'd say keep getting hit and also some AP, your hp/crit looks great atm.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
also that once useless poison trinket from romeo now has 30 hit rating in 2.1
Posts
Considering with Mutilate you will almost instantly have another Deadly Poison up the second you use Envenom, and the fact that Envenom FAR outdamages Eviscerate, I definitely recommend using Envenom over Eviscerate when you have the opportunity.
As for Cold Blood - Mutilate, try doing a 5cp, 5 Deadly Poison stack Cold Blood Envenom. You are wasting CB by using it with mutilate since only one dagger gets the crit bonus on your attack.
because it has double crit every time I have used it
I have used it hundreds and hundreds of times
I just feel like I get more benefit from mutilate critting than eviscerate critting.
Lethality and seal fate and all that
Now I don't have said poison talents but envenom simply does less damage when I test it. I guess I'll test it more often and apply what the talents would do to it. Enough people say envenom is great I must be doing something wrong.
But man my mutilate does like 3000 damage when both hands crit (and they always do with cb)
it
is
very
annoying.
Also:
Everything you stated above is wrong. I'm not going to dig up the post, but I specifically remember reading a blue response back in the day (when Mutilate was first getting implimented) that stated explicitely that Cold Blood only affected your mainhand attack since Mutilate is considered two seperate attacks. Unless someone here can point me to some patch notes that clearly says Cold Blood affects both attacks with Mutilate, I call BS on your "Always crits both attacks" comment.
I remember using CB in all those fights. It makes both hits crit.
This was back in the days of implimentation, people were picking apart the Mutilate Skill, and the big question everyone had was "Does Cold Blood affect both attacks"? The Blue response was that no it does not because Mutilate is considered two seperate attacks, therefore Coldblood only affects one of the two. Maybe they changed it upon implimentation and never said anything, but I never use CB with Mutilate because of that and I'm kind of pissed that I went this long not knowing about it being fixed.
Take it from a warrior. Blue responses from community managers are worthless.
Blame sentence structure on lurking se++ way too long
And all those who say evis > envenom are either very unlucky with poison procs, or haven't tried it. Back when I first got envenom I felt the same way, that there wasn't any point in using it since it removed deadly poison. Now I've pretty much removed eviscerate. Even with raid buffs and improved evis I never saw more than 2.1 crit in PvE, and hit for about 1.1.
In comparison, 2 more talents that also gets me more poison damage, makes my envenom much stronger. I've never hit a 5 point envenom for less than 1.5k, and with lots of AP buffs and/or stormstrike I usually HIT for 1800. Crits are always 2.9k +, almost never below 3k. Last Gruul run, using only envenom and SnD, I only used a non-poisoned mutilate once as far as I can remember, and that was with instant OH. When I run double deadly, even with 0/5 imp. poisons, I normally get a 5 stack in the time it takes me to get energy for another mutilate and envenom. I've noticed a significant boost in dps since I started using it. + It's better for the e-peen.
Although envenom is well worth it over evis, especially if you have 5/5 on both poison talents, it's stormstrike that makes it shine. Almost NOTHING else uses SS charges, half the time both will expire, other half the shammy tosses in an earthshock for good measure, although it's very inefficient. It's a free 20% boost to your finisher. Even with near 0 buffs (1853 AP) I crit for 3.4 - 3.5k with it.
and you will never even use deadly in the arena
in arena, warriors are just stupid broken
keeping in mind mt 2v2 partner lacks experience as a paladin, on top of gear, so I'm not facing ultra-geared teams
however I am in Bloodlust bg, so I do face avid pvpers
locks that know what to do are very, very nasty and are almost impossible to burst down, but they are manageble
hunters that are bm and have a good partner are almost unkillable, RED PET is just about the most horrible thing for a rogue ever, any other spec is not difficult at all
warriors with a shaman/paladin/priest can fuck off and die
just
fuck
fuck warriors square in the fucking ass
rogues have lots of problems overall in the arena because they have to balance survivability with damage while classes like warriors and locks don't
Warriors yes, Hunters and Locks, not as much.
If I see a Warrior, i'll just go the other direction, it isn't even worth it. If the guy has even an ounce of skill he will wipe the floor with your face. Same goes for Pallies and Shaman, they have too much armor and can heal through all of my damage without much trouble, it's just not worth the trouble to even attempt to solo them.
As for Hunters, if they get the jump on me, yeah it's game over unless I run for it. If I get the jump I can usually win the fight. Same with Warlocks, cept now with CloS I still have a chance even if they see me first.
Can opener warriors.
know why?
I know ahead of time that they are fucking terrible and I will kill them easily.
warrior/paladin is pretty much impossible for my warlock/rogue 2v2. warrior/shaman really isn't a problem if i kill the poison cleansing totem, blind and then throw some hurt on the warrior, or if the shaman is bad i can just sap him then blind when sap breaks.
i can absolutely not kill a resto shaman until he runs out of mana. it's just.. ridiculous.
Locks are in somewhat the same situation as us, the less players the stronger they are. Not a huge problem in my experience, although I'm lucky enough to have one of the best/best geared locks in the battlegroup on my team. I haven't really fought hunters 2v2, but they're ridiculously easy to kill in 3v3, even when BM. Can only remember one time a hunter's actually done much against us (running lock/rogue/pala or priest).
Envenom is useless in PvP because wound is win. And even if you got 5 deadly on, it's only worth it aganst plate/mail, and then only if it'll kill them, otherwise rupture is probably better.
Since BC came out I've NEVER beaten an arms warr when starting out of stealth. I also have less than 30% win when I get opener. It's like a nightmare, I know I'm fairly good at PvP, have at least 60% win rate against pretty much every other class, and it annoys me to no end when people say warrs are easy. It's not like they're all geared/skilled either, maybe I just have bad luck
Resto shammies are impossible in group fights (which is the problem with the warr/shammy/pally matchup. No CC or slow, warrs are stupid good dps, and we can't kill healers. Our one win we somehow managed to burn down and kill the warr, probably just luck), but IMO they're ridiculously easy in 1v1.
Need to get a new 2v2 team, been ages since I did that, and I really miss it
i fought this little gnome fucker once. i played it about as perfect as i could i think. did like 85% damage before i was even hit. he then hit for 2500, 2000 and then 2500 and i died (deep wounds ticked off a ridiculous amount of my hp.)
Intercept > MS > Overpower > OLOLyourdeadinunder5seconds
that stops when the warrior has a 110 dps weapon and 10k hp
also you don't die in 5 seconds if you have 9k hp
2.5k ms, 2k autoswing, 2.2k whirlwind, 2k autoswing. that's a 5 second span and it's happened to me. add in deep wounds ticking for over 200.
Sorry i lost my internets for a while there.
Heres my armoreez.
http://armory.wow-europe.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Auchindoun&n=Jek
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Well, firstly your best bet for a dagger is either Whispering Blade of Slaying from Murmur, who also drops Ass pants, or failing that just buy a Ced's Carver. Get Warp Splinters Thorn from the Warp Splinter in Bot as an oh. It's the best non-epic oh you can get for the most part.
Next, your talent build is a little confusing. I can't really tell if you're going for pvp or pve.
Also, go to Shadowmoon Valley and do the Gorefiends armor line to get your Stealther's Helm of Second Sight. It's a fantastic hat for both pve and pvp.
Your cloak is good for, but Delicate Green Poncho from Nagrand is much better for pve purposes.
Find a group to chain kill the first 2 bosses in Mana Tombs when you have the buff to get you enough Shards to buy Excorcists Band, also you can get the quest to kill Kargath in Shattered Halls to get a hella nice ring whose alliance name I forget.
Get the Spymistress's Bracers for pve and Marshalls for pvp. Those should start you off for now.
Ok excellent, thankyou.
My build - i was basically trying to get as much DPS out of it without losing my awesome sutblety talents and my other bag o' tricks. And i wanted a PVP/PVE balance.
When we (hopefully) get a free respec on the next patch i will probably respec for higher DPS. I don't know what to go for though. Never tried Hemo. Never strayed past the first couple of talents in Combat. I am totally clueless as to what to do here also.
- i got the Ass pants from Murmur as you can see, Helm of second sight is my next target then.
it just does not work
Pure pve combat daggers
Pve mut build
Arena daggers
Pvp Mut
just some builds you can play around with
Good pvp, good PvE. Nothing to complain about.
With regards to arena, I think the only problems I ever have are with warriors and feral druids that can bear form and kick my ass. Oh, and demo locks. Every other class is a gigantic pushover, even with my subpar daggers >D
They are nerfing the tailored sets, so locks/spriests should do less dps than before. Add glancing change and less running out/healing from cleaves, and we're set for nr 1!
Ye, I know what awaits at 70. So I enjoy it while it lasts.
One-eyed chicks are hot.
Until you reach 300, hit is better than crit point for point (unless you're mutilate with low crit), but prefer balancing stats. Assuming your sig profile is correct I'd work on AP for now, personally my goal (in the far future) is 200 hit, 8k hp, 1550 AP and 25% crit, currently lack about 50 hit, 65 stam and 2% crit, but I still use blues (Master's Threads even, got my shoulders though!) and lack some enchants. I recognize that hit is the best stat, but it's so hard to notice the difference that I tend to sacrifice it for other things >>.
With your stats I'd say keep getting hit and also some AP, your hp/crit looks great atm.
also that once useless poison trinket from romeo now has 30 hit rating in 2.1
wish i hadn't let it get sharded.
What the hell is that glow from? That's fucking rad.