AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
in warsong some rogue with slightly better or same gear as me was shadowstep, ambushing me for 3700. he was also terrible and i dominated him one on one, but it's a fun spec for wsg and such.
me and my rogue teammate both speced 31/0/30 (fuck premed, vigor fo lyfe) and we rocked a lot of worlds.
on top of that, you miss out on a great deal of good shit from other trees
But I want to be pretty deep in that tree for Deadliness and Sinister Calling anyway?
For stabbin' in the back
stab stab stab
why exactly?
because AP and Agi mean stabbing harder?
Plus, Master of Subtlety is pretty deep, too. I think what I'm going for is a build that basically does pretty explosive damage right at the opening of a fight, emphasizing things like backstab.
on top of that, you miss out on a great deal of good shit from other trees
But I want to be pretty deep in that tree for Deadliness and Sinister Calling anyway?
For stabbin' in the back
stab stab stab
why exactly?
because AP and Agi mean stabbing harder?
Plus, Master of Subtlety is pretty deep, too. I think what I'm going for is a build that basically does pretty explosive damage right at the opening of a fight, emphasizing things like backstab.
It's been awhile since I looked at builds like this, but, how does this look?
You can take out the 3 in Serrated Blades and put it in Ambush, if you wish.
tyrannus on
0
INeedNoSaltwith blood on my teethRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
With Serrated Blades in particular, am I going to want to DoT my enemies? Since what I am trying to do is stab a dude in the back, that might make it hard to stun/gouge them to position myself?
While you probably won't DoT much, the armor reduction is delicious. Especially against cloth.
Serpico on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited June 2007
You seem to have the mindset of rogues prior to the xpac.
Get yourself out of that mindset. The days of instagibbing anything meaningful are long gone.
If you're speccing it just to have fun and dick around, then shit man by all means do it, because it is pretty fun to goof around in. However, if you actually want to be effective with daggers then spec mut or SF premed.
on top of that, you miss out on a great deal of good shit from other trees
But I want to be pretty deep in that tree for Deadliness and Sinister Calling anyway?
For stabbin' in the back
stab stab stab
why exactly?
because AP and Agi mean stabbing harder?
Plus, Master of Subtlety is pretty deep, too. I think what I'm going for is a build that basically does pretty explosive damage right at the opening of a fight, emphasizing things like backstab.
There's nothing wrong with SS at all if all you plan to do is battlegrounds. The PVE damage is probably the worst a rogue can spec, and for arena there are much better specs.
You can still do decent dmg with ambush in a 30/0/31 daggers build. Premed> coldblood (or not) ambush> Kidney shot >bs >bs >coldblood evis or just skip the kidney shot and cb evis.
The difference between this and a SS build is the ambush is like in 2k range instead of 3k. You're giving up a lot for SS, and IMO the only really appealing thing about it is the teleport, Great for BG's.
I'm pretty new to rogues as well; Is the 30/0/31 daggers build more for PvP or PvE, or a combination of both? Also, which tree would you guys recommend going down first?
PS.
This thread has helped me tons. Thanks a bunch!
Most people say go down the combat tree for lvling and pick up swords. I would personally disagree and say daggers is faster leveling and a more steady grinding build.
Sinister Striking with some sort of Sword or Mace is just much more convenient when it comes to leveling.
I really have never seen this as a really solid point. You have to be pretty lazy if getting behind something to stab it is a problem. It's really not that hard to get behind mobs leveling. Once you get cheap shot and kidney shot it's solid. Plus you're going to kill shit WAY faster than just SS spamming.
Sinister Striking with some sort of Sword or Mace is just much more convenient when it comes to leveling.
I really have never seen this as a really solid point. You have to be pretty lazy if getting behind something to stab it is a problem. It's really not that hard to get behind mobs leveling. Once you get cheap shot and kidney shot it's solid. Plus you're going to kill shit WAY faster than just SS spamming.
The thing is, you're killing so many mobs when you're leveling that it's easier to just spam a couple of buttons as you go along. Having to get behind the mob somehow, whether it's gouge or kidney shot is fine and all, but when you have to do it to that many mobs it becomes tiresome.
And I disagree that there will be a huge difference in actual kill time, as even if your DPS is a lot higher, which I don't buy into necessarily, you have to factor in the time you spend sitting there with a mob while it's gouged and you're regaining energy and the fair number of mobs that will block/parry/dodge both your gouge and your kidney shot, leaving you SOL if you haven't taken imp SS and if you aren't keeping a mace or sword in your bag anyway.
At around level 30 I was almost never using gouge in a normal rotation. By the time you're in your late 30's you can get seal fate and from there it's pretty much CS BS KS BS BS dead. Wht's the difference as a combat rogue? CS SS SS SS KS SS? Only time you need gouge is if you're unlucky with crits or something misses. I think the 5% hit is probably the strongest aspect of lvling combat, especially because there is like NO HIT prior to 60.
The problem I have with leveling combat is it offers no crit and because the combo point generation is so slow you're going to take more damage, at least I was. When I respec'd from combat around 30 I noticed a pretty big difference. But that's just me, they're both viable. I just don't see combat as the absolute best lvling build.
Haha no I know, I'm just musing here. I just remember leveling and checking out the forums and like everyone on there militantly defending combat as the best leveling spec period.
Anything combat is good, and combat/mut is good because you just need to pick up precision and DW spec to be competitive in pve.
Shoggoth on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
random bg rogue : how much do you ambush crit for?
me : i don't ambush
random : well ok, how much bs?
me : 1800-2200
random : that's garbage
random : you should ambush
me : ok
Thanks, Shoggoth. I'll have to play around with the talent calculators and see what interests me the most.
When it comes to solo'ing, my first priority is simply to have fun, even if that means making the game more of a challenge. I'm highly in favour of using daggers because I love the act of stunning (either with gouge or kidney shot) then slipping around for a backstab or two.
But as for PvE raids, obviously I'd prefer to be as effective within the group as I possibly can, but at the same tme I'd love to sick with a dagger in the main-hand. So maybe I'll eventually give the Mutilate/Combat build a try.
Hell, I might even give the 31/0/30 build a go for some PvE'ing just to see how well it works, if at all. I figure the constant action point stack-up (premed, seal of fate) would be very helpful for finishers that help the group, such as kidney shot and expose armor. However, I realize I wouldn't be doing as much damage as I would with a Mutilate/Combat build.
Up to KZ pretty much any build is usable, unless the guild is progressing and you want to help it go faster. In 25 man raids and on, any build that isn't combat or mut/combat will...well, suck. Even mut/combat looses a lot of its punch, but I'd still use it if you want daggers. It's the most fun raiding build to me, since it gives us shitloads of options for cycles. And before Magtheridon or so I didn't notice any difference whatsoever between my mut/combat and full combat (fist) build. Whether it's the encounters, or me/my fellow dpsers gearing up that made the difference I don't know but I find it's a lot harder to beat the other dpsers with mut now.
Things have finally started to drop for me now, got 1 new item the last 2 months before the last reset, and now I've got 2 items + fully upgraded KZ ring (haven't gone in 2 weeks >>) since wed. First T4 too. And my hit is finally aproaching decent levels.
I know for a fact I'll have a problem with sticking to a pure-PVE or pure-PVP build once I hit 70 because my interest never stays focused on one aspect of the game for too long. I'll raid for a week or so before jumping into world raids and/or battlegrounds for the next week, then jump back to raiding after, and so on. This is why I'm torn between the Mutilate/Combat and SoF/Premed build, as I'd like to minimize the amount of respecs I need to do.
Then again, I hear gold in Outland (I've only been to Shattrath so far) is very common to stumble across through quests.
IMO, hemo if your PvE consists of heroics or lower and PvP of low-mid rank arena/BGs, combat mut for raiding/high rank arena (which appears to not be an issue
So does envenom eat a stormstrike charge because holy fuck I got a big one in Kara. Bigger than usual at least. It could have been the buffs though, I'm running at like 1k more than I usually do.
FrylockHolmes on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
my and my rogue partner both have very nice gear and we both do extremely well in kara, gruul and ssc (trash and lurker) with combat/mut. mag not so much because we click cubes as our ranged dps consists of some retards who can't be trusted to push a button every two minutes.
Now that I'm in Outland and will soon have two decent daggers I'm considering going for a mute spec. I'll have a warlock buddy to grind with, so I can get used to positioning.
Also: annoying that special attacks don't start autoattack if you don't have enough energy for the special attack. Easy to fix with a macro, but still...
Also: annoying that special attacks don't start autoattack if you don't have enough energy for the special attack. Easy to fix with a macro, but still...
I dunno. I think if I went to sap/garotte/cheap shot/ambush a mob and for whatever reason didn't have the energy for it, the last thing I would want to do is start auto-attacking.
So does envenom eat a stormstrike charge because holy fuck I got a big one in Kara. Bigger than usual at least. It could have been the buffs though, I'm running at like 1k more than I usually do.
It does. I regularly got 3.2k envenoms with 4CP when I was mutilate, vile poisons + stormstrike + ignore armor put together is what really brings it over evis in some situations. Got a 4.8 one in KZ with the 20% more dmg debuff, and a 4.2k normal 5-point.
So does envenom eat a stormstrike charge because holy fuck I got a big one in Kara. Bigger than usual at least. It could have been the buffs though, I'm running at like 1k more than I usually do.
It does. I regularly got 3.2k envenoms with 4CP when I was mutilate, vile poisons + stormstrike + ignore armor put together is what really brings it over evis in some situations. Got a 4.8 one in KZ with the 20% more dmg debuff, and a 4.2k normal 5-point.
Yeah, I nearly broke a 4k 5 point crit last night on Moroes. It was surprising to say the least, I nearly blew vanish because I thought he was going to whip around and destroy me.
Also: annoying that special attacks don't start autoattack if you don't have enough energy for the special attack. Easy to fix with a macro, but still...
in warsong some rogue with slightly better or same gear as me was shadowstep, ambushing me for 3700. he was also terrible and i dominated him one on one, but it's a fun spec for wsg and such.
me and my rogue teammate both speced 31/0/30 (fuck premed, vigor fo lyfe) and we rocked a lot of worlds.
I just specced 30,0,31 after picking up the sword of the cosmo's from Mechanar. This weekend in Kara I actually was doing really well. 2nd on the meters behind a Rogue wielding the Emerald Ripper MH, 80-something DPS OH and sporting a Mutilate Combat build.
All in all, i'm pretty happy with 30,0,31.
Edit, Hemo, not the dagger variant.
And Shoggoth, combat swords is a lot faster for leveling. There isn't even an argument there. Yes, daggers are viable, but not even close to as efficient for leveling.
Posts
me and my rogue teammate both speced 31/0/30 (fuck premed, vigor fo lyfe) and we rocked a lot of worlds.
is it not good?
no, it's pretty terrible
on top of that, you miss out on a great deal of good shit from other trees
But I want to be pretty deep in that tree for Deadliness and Sinister Calling anyway?
For stabbin' in the back
stab stab stab
why exactly?
because AP and Agi mean stabbing harder?
Plus, Master of Subtlety is pretty deep, too. I think what I'm going for is a build that basically does pretty explosive damage right at the opening of a fight, emphasizing things like backstab.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihecRx0oiZZEMc0MGRcbo
You can take out the 3 in Serrated Blades and put it in Ambush, if you wish.
Like I said I am a noob at this, only level 25.
Get yourself out of that mindset. The days of instagibbing anything meaningful are long gone.
If you're speccing it just to have fun and dick around, then shit man by all means do it, because it is pretty fun to goof around in. However, if you actually want to be effective with daggers then spec mut or SF premed.
There's nothing wrong with SS at all if all you plan to do is battlegrounds. The PVE damage is probably the worst a rogue can spec, and for arena there are much better specs.
You can still do decent dmg with ambush in a 30/0/31 daggers build. Premed> coldblood (or not) ambush> Kidney shot >bs >bs >coldblood evis or just skip the kidney shot and cb evis.
The difference between this and a SS build is the ambush is like in 2k range instead of 3k. You're giving up a lot for SS, and IMO the only really appealing thing about it is the teleport, Great for BG's.
PS.
This thread has helped me tons. Thanks a bunch!
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhecox0sqZZEMj0MhRc0o
Most people say go down the combat tree for lvling and pick up swords. I would personally disagree and say daggers is faster leveling and a more steady grinding build.
I really have never seen this as a really solid point. You have to be pretty lazy if getting behind something to stab it is a problem. It's really not that hard to get behind mobs leveling. Once you get cheap shot and kidney shot it's solid. Plus you're going to kill shit WAY faster than just SS spamming.
The thing is, you're killing so many mobs when you're leveling that it's easier to just spam a couple of buttons as you go along. Having to get behind the mob somehow, whether it's gouge or kidney shot is fine and all, but when you have to do it to that many mobs it becomes tiresome.
And I disagree that there will be a huge difference in actual kill time, as even if your DPS is a lot higher, which I don't buy into necessarily, you have to factor in the time you spend sitting there with a mob while it's gouged and you're regaining energy and the fair number of mobs that will block/parry/dodge both your gouge and your kidney shot, leaving you SOL if you haven't taken imp SS and if you aren't keeping a mace or sword in your bag anyway.
The problem I have with leveling combat is it offers no crit and because the combo point generation is so slow you're going to take more damage, at least I was. When I respec'd from combat around 30 I noticed a pretty big difference. But that's just me, they're both viable. I just don't see combat as the absolute best lvling build.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboxZMeVbMVzV0hRt
You can take pretty much any weapon specialization, fists and swords are my favorite though.
Five mans favors burst a little more I would assume something like:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wMe0oEbsizVobIVb0V
Anything combat is good, and combat/mut is good because you just need to pick up precision and DW spec to be competitive in pve.
me : i don't ambush
random : well ok, how much bs?
me : 1800-2200
random : that's garbage
random : you should ambush
me : ok
/ignore
When it comes to solo'ing, my first priority is simply to have fun, even if that means making the game more of a challenge. I'm highly in favour of using daggers because I love the act of stunning (either with gouge or kidney shot) then slipping around for a backstab or two.
But as for PvE raids, obviously I'd prefer to be as effective within the group as I possibly can, but at the same tme I'd love to sick with a dagger in the main-hand. So maybe I'll eventually give the Mutilate/Combat build a try.
Hell, I might even give the 31/0/30 build a go for some PvE'ing just to see how well it works, if at all. I figure the constant action point stack-up (premed, seal of fate) would be very helpful for finishers that help the group, such as kidney shot and expose armor. However, I realize I wouldn't be doing as much damage as I would with a Mutilate/Combat build.
Things have finally started to drop for me now, got 1 new item the last 2 months before the last reset, and now I've got 2 items + fully upgraded KZ ring (haven't gone in 2 weeks >>) since wed. First T4 too. And my hit is finally aproaching decent levels.
Then again, I hear gold in Outland (I've only been to Shattrath so far) is very common to stumble across through quests.
I do great in both PVE and PVP.
Now that I'm in Outland and will soon have two decent daggers I'm considering going for a mute spec. I'll have a warlock buddy to grind with, so I can get used to positioning.
I dunno. I think if I went to sap/garotte/cheap shot/ambush a mob and for whatever reason didn't have the energy for it, the last thing I would want to do is start auto-attacking.
It does. I regularly got 3.2k envenoms with 4CP when I was mutilate, vile poisons + stormstrike + ignore armor put together is what really brings it over evis in some situations. Got a 4.8 one in KZ with the 20% more dmg debuff, and a 4.2k normal 5-point.
Yeah, I nearly broke a 4k 5 point crit last night on Moroes. It was surprising to say the least, I nearly blew vanish because I thought he was going to whip around and destroy me.
...and what might that macro look like?
I just specced 30,0,31 after picking up the sword of the cosmo's from Mechanar. This weekend in Kara I actually was doing really well. 2nd on the meters behind a Rogue wielding the Emerald Ripper MH, 80-something DPS OH and sporting a Mutilate Combat build.
All in all, i'm pretty happy with 30,0,31.
Edit, Hemo, not the dagger variant.
And Shoggoth, combat swords is a lot faster for leveling. There isn't even an argument there. Yes, daggers are viable, but not even close to as efficient for leveling.