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[WoW] Rogues:Cheat Death: 100% chance to stab yourself in the groin.
tyrannus
i am not fatRegistered User regular
i am not fatRegistered User regular
This is a fairly old post, but relevant.
Feel free to ask any questions to people like Wavechaser, and the like. I don't play WoW anymore.
This is not an end all post, I do not think I can make it as such. I just want to give you a broad overview.
Why would I make a rogue?
Control, damage, and a fantastic world PvP class. Ganking some feral druid who thinks he's badass when he as 15% hp is excellent. Bypassing content with a friendly druid who thinks your ass is cute is also quite fun.
If I want damage, I'd play a mage
Perhaps, but the damage a rogue offers is fun on demand burst damage so much so that it can become something you can rely on. Also, it's more fun then standing back spamming fireball. PVP is even more fun with as many tricks and aces a rogue has.
You can't gank in the expansion, people have like 10,000hp
You'll still be able to dish out some mean ganking damage. And abuse improved sap, which has been increased to 100% for 2 points. You'll be hard pessed to find a reason to not get it, unless you really like burning blinding powder faster than Azou goes through Big Macs.
You still haven't sold me, but fine, I bite. Tell me, what should I use for leveling?
All joking aside, you can really level anyway you want. From experience though, I'd shoot for your 31 point talent as quick as possible and get a nice pair of swords. You can actually go from a Wingblade to a Outlaw Sabre to a Jade Broadsword and Sword of Omen to a Vanquisher's sword to a Thrash Blade to Dal' Rends to BC content gear, or old MC style stuff. Swords are fantastic to level with.
What race should I be? undead, right?
Yes. Cannibilize reduces downtime grindng, underwater breathing is fun for escaping players (you'll be doing this a lot) and ganking (Imp sap + gnome + water = hilarity), and WoTF frees up a trinket slot.
But yeah, you can be any race but with the recent nerf to thistle tea, blood elf is looking pretty hot, too. But I like undead, even if we wear socks to war.
Explain to me the trees, because I am horrible
Assassination is something to make your finishers deadlier with stuff to generally increase your yellow damage's potential, be it combo point generation (Seal Fate, Mutilate) or increased damage (Imp Evis, Imp Kidney shot, Find Weakness)
Combat is basically white damage and energy management. Making things cost less energy, do more damage, and add to a weird tempo of energy (Combat potency, Adrenaline rush), or adding to your white AND yellow abilities potency, like, +to hit, + to offhand damage, +parry, +dodge, etc.
Subtlety is the utility and opener tree. It doesn't offer a lot of extra damage like Assassination or Combat does, so it also offers things to overall and boradly increase your damage. Deadliness, Sinister Calling, Shadowstep, all amazing talents. In a 20ass/0cbt/41Sub build, your damage will not be lacking, and your opening combo point generation will be fantastic. You will, by far, have your first 5 combo points faster than any build that doesn't go at least 30 points into subtlety, and usually those are the most important.
These are just overviews, if you have questions, I'll gladly answer them and update this guide.
You're a fag. How are rogues in PvP? I hear they bitch a lot.
Each spec you play with is different. With hemo, you'll have an astounding amount of control and reasonable damage and fantastic combo point generation, allowing for multiple finishers per fight.
With full combat, you will be more deadly out of stealth and be just a walking force to be reckoned with. Melee will cry, casters will bitch, and warlocks will post on forums about how you killed them in a stunlock.
With any dagger build, your modem will be your best friend, alongside crippling poison. A good ping and crippling are usually required for daggers, which explains the reasoning behind mutilate (a tad) REWARDING the player for doing something he'd ordinarily do.
The best build is the most fun build, and whichever you decide is a fun build is the best build. Personally, however, I am in a toss up between 31/0/30 and 30/0/31 - a 20 energy cheap shot (basically), or 5 combo points immediately is a tough decision for me.
The rogues that bitch a lot suffer delusions induced by a lack of available cooldowns, or are just not that great at the class, or are good at understanding what they need to do but their micromanagement is horrible.
There are just some classes, too, that are just insane to fight as certain specs. A combat rogue (exluding daggers) might not fare so well against a frost mage willing to burn cold snap, but will be far more comfortable taking on that warrior with 10,000 hp.
Some good tips for using daggers -
In a situation where he's crippled and you're not, run/jump through him. Don't dick around running around him, that takes time and could have you running around with full energy like an asshole for awhile.
When you're crippled and he's not, blind or vanish, depending on the fight.
I will go into class versus class details in this thread, but that task is gigantic.
I want more general tips, you convulsing asstard.
All I really know is that nova = blind. feared? break and blind before you eat an intercept. NS heal to full? Kill his faggy poison cleansing totem and searing totem and blind + bandage. Rogue open on you, but suck at stunlock? Blind. Druid runs into caster form and not cast abolish poison on himself? You get the picture. It's a way to get them to stay the fuck still. All your fearsome damage is done up close. Just need to use some control and know your energy.
Do not kidney shot if below 30/20 energy unless you have some way of getting back a good chunk of that energy. Use your energy ticks of timing for when your stun will run out. Use StunWatch if you're lazy.
Restealth when you can.
You need +10 energy in some manner or form if you want to truly stunlock. vigor, 1/2 dirty deeds, NS 5 piece bonus. use blind as a link between CS and gouge diminishing returns. An epic stunlock will, on live, do a LOT of damage. Level 63 rogues are able to 100->0 (Stunlock someone from full HP to no HP without them getting a shot in) by abusing blind.
You can get blinding powder and other poison stuff from junkboxes off of humanoid mobs.
Engineering is also amazing to link stunlocks, stop runners, and all around just a fun rogue profession.
More tips to be added as this is just going as a flow.
This isn't going anywhere, you should've had some outline
Yeah, well, you're a dick. I need you to ask questions and inspire me to put more stuff in the guide after going over with you personally about it.
Well, asshead, okay. If I do raid, what kind of shit can I expect?
What a wonderful question, I'll let one of those gays answer it for you.
Originally typed by that douchebag Unai
Well, unfortunately, Blizzard has decided to continue the trend of tier 4 to tier 5 by making every single class except for warlocks gheyer than tree droods (and making druids even gayer)How is that even possible? -Tyr.
The rogue tier 5 can only be described by a cross between Shredder from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and a slightly more chubby and flamboyant Skeletor from He-man. Also, blizzard hates Undead Rogues so they will continue to wear socks. Enjoy your future raiding rogue!
TO BE CONTINUED
Questions and answers
Both TT and the Trinket are nerfed. DEE COLON.As you see it, would the ZG trinket make up the diff between a BE and a UD? Since the UD would have a free spot because of WoTF.
Certainly both are races that most casters will moan and complan about. It doesn't really answer your question, but know that I've broken fear and seduce a LOT and use cannabilize all the time. I'd say the diff between a BE and an UD is what classes they'll do well against.
Ive heard people say fists are better DPS than swords for combat. Your opinion? Also Maces yea or neah?
I've heard this spread about as common knowledge, but as I see it, it's just as good. An offhand sword can proc a MH spec. But, it resets the swing timer for the main hand. But, the neat thing I think is that, instead of attacking 1.0 seconds later, you attack that very second. It still gives you more hits than you would get with a fist-spec, although with the scaling down of crit gear, the +5 crit is going to be nice for raiding. The only way to check is to do some crazy math I'm not ready for yet. But with a Hand of Justice and sword spec, a GM quickblade and a nice MH sword and windfury, you'll just be OOZING white damage.
Maces are alright, they're not as bad as people say they are but mace spec is kinda on and off. It offers not really anything in terms of raiding anymore, even with the talent being merged into its own form of Weapon Expertise. And, as Jelu mentions, Fist spec is usually amazing, but I find that pure, unadulterated damage comes in the form of combat daggers. I look at other guild's damage meters and using their CD rogue is on top of the other rogues, but I'm sure someone in the thread will note some other anecdoctal evidence to claim otherwise.
Whore your AP and hit. You want at least 12% before you go with crit. AP adds to all your damage, yellow and white. AP and hit with a bit of crit. You want a good balance of crit and hit and AP because a non-crit backstab for 700 will be better than a critical backstab of 1000.As a combat rogue what kind of gear would I be looking for? Would it be different from a dagger rogues? same question visa-versa?
Remember, a non-crit backstab is worse for you to get than a dodged backstab, which was the misinformed gripe about surprise attacks. As it was, people assumed a 1 tiered hit/crit/dodge thing. If it was dodged, then SA would say it hit, therefore it couldn't crit. But that's not how it works. It’s a two tiered system. It was a fine talent, but it’s still pretty good now.
Fuck yes, think of expose armor (improved) as a 35% increase in all damage done to the target as long as the debuff is there. It's necessary to dps down a holy priest obsessed with healing and getting through the mitigation of a shadow priest, for burning down a shaman or paladin, and just generally a fun little insult to use on mages.is imp expose armor worth it? explain why?
Premed-CS->Expose->Gouge/Blind->Shadowstep->Ambush is a FUCKTON of protential damage.
Hopefully I can be shed some more light on this but as it seems in a 41 talent point combat build, as long as you have a quick offhand and LOTS of poison and vile poison, shiv'll out damage SS. Why? Because shiv is yellow damage, so it has to be normalized, and it's normalized at 2.4 for AP. Also, it'll instaly apply your gay old instant poison. It really excells at high armor targets (dur, poison > armor), and adds combo points and costs less energy than SS, so even on low armor targets, the combo point gen from shiv'll make up for SS. I'm sure they'll do something to change it, but still, it's nice.Which is better DPS Shiv or Sinister Strike?
Sure. There's a ton of options now and for me to suggest one would be presumptuous of how I think you should spend your money.You said engineering is a good profession for rogues would you recommend any others considering the info youve collected in the beta.
Weaponsmithing for instance. being able to make and use those sick maces or swords. or Tailoring nets, jewelcrafting trinkets, etc.
in reference to Azou's dumbassery
YOU ARE SO FUCKING WRONG!
But a lot of people misunderstand how the dual wield penalty works. If you dual wield, you have only an 85% chance to hit with both the mainhand and offhand before talents and gear. Your offhand also suffers a -50% to damage before talents. +15% to hit will allow you to attack a mob your same level and never miss with white damage. +23.9% hit will allow you to attack a level 63 mob and never miss with white damage. +5% will allow you to attack a mob your same level and never miss with yellow damage.
Over 50% of a rogues damage comes from white hits which is why PvE rogues enjoy stacking so much hit instead of crit.
With ordinary auto-attack ("white damage") weapon strikes, Dual Wielding adds an additional 19% to the attacker's miss rate. This penalty applies both to auto-attack strikes with the off-hand weapon and to auto-attack strikes with the main hand weapon. Since the base miss rate of all characters is 5%, dual-wielding will increase your miss rate to 24%(19%+5%).
(This applies when the target's Defense skill equals the attacker's weapon skill. For each point the target's Defense skill exceeds the attacker's weapon skill, the miss chance increases by 0.04%. For each point the attacker's Weapon skill exceeds the target's Defense skill, the miss chance decreases by 0.04%. See Formulas:Weapon Skill.)
Important note: Prior to version 1.8, dual wield's miss chance had a hard cap of 19%, meaning that all dual-wield auto-attacks had a minimum 19% miss chance regardless of how much +hit% gear was equipped. In version 1.8, this hard cap was removed. The exact wording of the 1.8 patch note was:
"Items which provide +hit chance will now be allowed to counteract the increased miss chance penalty of dual-wielding."
Take a rogue for example vs. a 63 monster, he has 5%+(0.04%*15)= 5.6% base miss chance (assuming he has 300 weapon skill and the monster has no special internal Defense skill bonuses), plus 19% dual wield miss chance, leaving us with a total miss chance of 24.6%.
Note that the +19% miss chance for dual-wielding only applies to ordinary auto-attack melee attacks. It does not apply to any special attack powers that cost rage, energy, or mana -- neither instant attacks such as Sinister Strike, nor on next swing attacks such as Heroic Strike, incur the dual wield miss penalty. So, with 6% +hit from gear/talents a dual-wielder will never miss with an instant attack (although the attack can still be dodged, parried, or blocked -- see the Attack table article). However, a dual-wielder would need 25% +hit if he wants to remove the miss chance for auto-attack/white damage totally.
Hey, look, shit about hitting and missing! Not sure if it's accurate, but...
http://evilempireguild.org/guides/attacks.php
I'm still bad! Your guide fucking sucks!
Watch some rogue videos, if you can find Ming's stuff, those are good.
Unsouled's videos are fantastic, and Nerf Sap 8 is good as well.
Give me some links, you talking red baboon-ass.
FINE. FINE. FUCK YOU.
http://roguecrap.blogspot.com/ Theorycraft for rogues. Updates regularly, but not daily.
http://www.worldofming.com Arrogant rogue, but useful. Offers in depth talent guides.
http://shadowpanther.net/ Incldues FR gear, NR gear, anything and a method of comparing gear, in case you can't decide if you like stormshroud over devilsaur.
tyrannus on
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Posts
Fixed for more badassery.
Also, screw undead, humans are the master race.
However, combat swords has ONE THING that combat fists don't.
GRAND MARSHALL LONGSWORD AND SWIFTBLADE.
Yes mob, I'm going to slap you in the face with my gold and silver colored wangs kthxbye.
I'm 14/41/0 pure dps, no utility.
One-eyed chicks are hot.
As I have stated preiviously, combat swords or DIE. Right now my Rogues sitting at 29, 6 Marks of Honor away from the Protectors sword. Now, this is going to have two parts.
One, should I get the level 28 Version? Or just level to 30 and get the 38, and just ghetto it till then?
Also, I wish to have two giant swords of fuckawesome. Is it viable to still use the PVP 60 rewards through the Outlands?
One-eyed chicks are hot.
I'd personally go for the level 60 pvp rewards, but that's just me.
Okay, swords, you have so many fucking choices. At level 30, you have a few levels until you can use the sword of omen / sword of serenity. At level 28, you could still be using an Outlaw Sabre or a Zealot Blade.
2 levels from 38, you can slurp up a Vanquisher's Sword.
To be fair, leveling up with shitty swords would suck if he's not going to run instances.
And if I'm not mistaken, there are a couple of badass swords that are rep rewards once you hit 70. I'd be perfectly okay with waiting until 70 to grind out the rep for them, if I can still use the GM blades.
And yeah, my rogues is going to be the GET IT THE FUCK TO 60 character for me, then sit back, relax and PVP for the dual swords of awesome, then GET IT THE FUCK TO 70, and then, well, who knows.I don't really plan on stopping anytime to grind out any instances in between, unless I absolutley HAVE to.
In the 19 bracket: kill half the horde team solo, no twink enchants.
In the 20s bracket: kill anyone 1 on 1 easy.
In the 30s bracket: pretty good in combat, warriors slightly harder, a bit easier to cc to death.
In the 40s bracket: completely raeped by anyone with any sort of cc, i.e. everyone.
nobody pvps in the 50s
60 pvp was fucking retarded with anything other than your epic geared main, so that doesn't count either.
Yeah, the increased armor/abilities as you get higher and higher really negate any advantage a combat swords build has. Clothies are always quick kills, but the higher and higher you get, the more you need burst damage in order to kill, well, anything really.
That is all.
You can do fine with most builds in PvP, burst damage or no. All it comes down to is choosing your fights wisely. There are some classes you just don't fuck with. The only class I would say that is a make or break fight depending on your build would be Mages. Mages are pretty much the only class I would say require burst damage to take down effectively.
Now all I have to do is nail a spot in one of the Karazhan Teams and its all Biscuits and Gravy 8-)
@ Reigner: Where the fuck are you? I need to talk to you.
Anyways, in 2.1.0, besides cleaves and other bad shit being nerfed, Glancing Blows are going to reduce less damage from melee.
My guild's premier rogue is Grand Marshal Graveyy.
Nice thread here. But I think Leonidas is a warrior not a rogue. Respect to you rogues here, I am thinking of making a rogue too. Does a Tauren Rogue would do good or are there any race that would fit better?
Tauren can't be rogues.
Note the cheeks.
Note the eyes.
Now, take a look at the thread title.
1) WAVECHASER SUX
2) world pvp is dead
3) ganking people with 15% hp is hardly rogue exclusive or fulfilling ( more than occaisonally ;p ). pick healthy targets vying for veins/flowers you want. it'll force you to not suck and is 100x as fun.
4) Sap + drowning hasnt worked for well over a year. i forget why, but im pretty sure the drowning damage now breaks sap.
5) UD are great, orcs, gnomes, dorfs are all good as well.
6)Explain to me the trees, because I am horrible = kek
imo the trees are a depressing affair. while most other classes can select specs across their trees to basically change the toon they are playing (shadow vs holy, ele vs enh vs resto, fury vs prot, etc) rogue trees are instead geared towards what you want to do. no matter the path you take, your role is the same: short term CC via stuns/disables and three fucktons of DPS. this is true in both pve and pvp.
if you want to pve: Combat has the highest DPS for any fight longer than ~10 seconds.
if you want to pve/pvp a bit both: Assasination has some fun toys, some burst damage, and some great CP gen.. but ultimately, its less dps then Combat, even before taking into account poison-invulnerable targets. the excellent CP gen might be faking more control than Combat, but its a red herring. You dont get an extra KP to put those CP's into, so they funnel into DPS finishers which dont add up to par with combat.
if you want to pvp: Subt has great control and weaker DPS, and plenty of tricks.
7) rogues bitch alot because as L33T N4NJ4R 4$$4$$1nZ we attract a good deal of the lowest common denominator among the 12-14 year old wow populace, see especially the NE and UD populace. thankfully, a good portion of this demographic shifted into the hunter and warlock fields over the past year, and the rogue forums are sometimes bearable now.
8)Well, asshead, okay. If I do raid, what kind of shit can I expect? farming consumables, spamming your primary attack and keeping SnD up, learning to move - alot, making fun of huntards, learning that what you thought was good might not be cutting the mustard and adjusting. and yes, you can possibly look like skeletor.
9) well you'd be wrong. i'm combat swords with mixed epics and lvl 115 blues mostly, and a less experienced rogue in weaker gear generally keeps up with me using reflex blades. this is just one/my example, but in general your "look everyone presents examples and math and shit to say fists are better, but i say swords are just as good ok?" argument is VERY compelling. ps - not compelling.
10) misinformation
there is a single 'roll' to determine the outcome of an attack. the old SA was a nerf to DPS.
11) even with all the talents that improve shiv: vile poisons, sword spec, DW spec, etc; with the best gear in the game to support the style, it does not out damage SS. again, your gut feeling is spreading misinformation. maybe you should post a link to wowwiki instead of writing FAQ's?
12) also lies atm.
comments on hit/miss below, some @ Rent, mostly at other misinformed posters:
no. base 5% miss, +19% DW miss penalty. so, your base miss with a white attack is 24% before talents and gear, assuming a target with Defense skill = to your Weapon skill (read: same level, usually. most level 70 players and mobs of some classes will have modded Defense skills via their own talents/gear etc.)
100-24 = 76. you have a base 76% chance to hit before talents or gear, NOT 85%.
correct.
no, you need 24%.
this statement is so fucked up i dont know where to start. OK.
no one gives a shit about hitting level 63 mobs as level 70. as this is a noob guide, we should endeavor to explain that Boss Mobs are effectively Your Level + Three. so, that used to mean 63. Now it means something else. see if you can figure it out.
To continue~ in order to hit a boss with every white or yellow attack, you should plan on the boss having more defense skill than you have weaponskill. this means you'll need to pad the normal minimum %'s you need a bit. so, instead of needing a minimum 5% to not miss any yellow attacks, you should aim for maybe 6-7%. if you wanted every white attack to land, you'd need maybe 25-26% instead of just 24... though getting that high would be pretty difficult to reach. In practice, 9-15% are common values so you're covered on yellow and get what you can for white.
correct.
pretty much. if this is untrue for you, You're Doing It (pve) Wrong.
NO U.
Fixed.
MISINFORMATION
Ganking people at 15% health is very fun and fulfilling, especially if you've had a bad day.
Actually, if I remember correctly (which I do) it was only a nerf to Combat Dagger builds DPS in relation to backstabs.
point stands, 1 'roll' resolves each attack.
re: what SA was a specific nerf to~ hell yeah combat daggers. theoretically there would be a crit% break point, above which SA would be a nerf for any spec... but it's prolly be pretty high for anything that doesnt cost 60 energy ;o
Read this.
What is known, however, is that a special attack made against a mob or a shield-carrying player can be blocked and be a crit at the same time. This result is impossible under the mutually-exclusive attack results table described in the preceding section.
Tigole quoate:
The Rogue Situation
We’ve done a tuning pass of many of our dungeons/bosses/encounters to ensure that nothing overly punishing occurs to “melee DPS’ that would lead people to favor ranged DPS over Rogues/DPS Warriors etc.
Also, we’ve changed the NPC cleave mechanic so that it’s now a frontal cone ability rather than a 360 degree chain attack. Sweeping Strikes has been removed from all Burning Crusade NPC’s.
We’re also reducing the Glancing Blow damage penalty for creatures 1-3 levels higher than the player. This will have a significant effect on melee DPS as it relates to endgame melee dps. More details on this at a later time.
.....
I am so happy in the pants about this
- Delissi
Okay are you dumb or what?
get back to leveling your 50th warrior
i need to play my rogue more... mace spec for the win
But as for my misadventures with my blood elf rogue; arcane torrent is all kinds of fun with casters
and the comments of "ick it's a blood elf rogue" are always so helpful
Blizzard disabled your ability to make a new character? It's like I'm on the official priest forum.
First off, I hate that I'm a fucking Nelf. Sword of Omen rapes the Serenity blade of sissyness. And the Outlaw Sabre is a QUEST reward for you guys. I been using a CB with FIREY for christssakes. And a fucking PRISON shank.
Well, at least the Zelot Blade is OH MY GOD THAT'S HALF MY MOUNTS COST.
Sooo.....one Jade Serpentblade it is....
NO
ok i've never seen that so apologies if im mistaken on that front, however this one anomaly in the one-roll theory doesnt have me buying into multiple rolls just yet, personally. in reality, i doubt we'll ever get a 100% accurate picture without someone haxing into bliz, and for all intents and purposes one-roll matches up to what we see in game. id more readily believe something like~
(simplified)
1-5 miss
6-10 parry
11-15 blocked crit
16-50 crit
etc
built into a single roll.
not all of us have unlimited time to grind up new chars to 70
I have the time.
I just don't have the goddamn inclination.