@spool32 Thank you! I own them all already, and unfortunately, @burnage beat you to it. Thanks though guys, I would have missed this without you all and it warms my heart.
I don't want to turn this into a comparison thread, but I do like how DOTA doesn't give a damn if supports can deal damage
Yeah, let's have an ult deal a potential 17k damage without items, that's cool
Supports should do good damage, I think the problem is that marksmen are so fragile at the early levels, that damage dealing supports just murder them.
Good? I don't think there's anything wrong at all with the idea of marksmen being weak early game and strong late, with supports having the opposite power curve.
Right now we've got a weird situation where some marksmen are very strong in lane and it makes even the strongest supports feel relatively weak at what should be their strongest point. When I think about lane bullies in bot lane at the moment, I think Lucian, Cait and Draven.
yeah I think that would good as well, but Riot doesn't think so, so *shrug*
0 CS supports have been riding the coattails of ADC's overpowered scaling, but that is changing even at 0 CS, let alone at higher gold values.
WAT?
OK lets break it down
1) ADC's lategame scaling is a necessity to have lategames that end and are not slapfights between tanks and are also not dumb hypercarry 1v5 shit.
2) ADC's ride the coattails of 0 CS supports winning their lane for them at level
3) The problem has never been 0 CS supports the problem has been that support abilities are amazingly strong and create balance issues elsewhere. Its just as much an issue when mids become supports as it is when supports become mids. And supports that scale tend to become mids really really fast*.
I mean lets be honest here who has played Sona in ARAM? Who thinks that Sona loses lane?
If Sona doesn't lose lane and Sona super dunks when she has lots of Gold who is going to think that Sona is going to have a problem in Season 4 even with some reduced ratios? Sure she has to buy Lucky Pick and Sightstone first. But Lucky pick has AP on it and Sightstone has HP on it, two things she wants to build anyway! I think I am kinda OK with Sona having her laning power reduced a bit and her scaling cut back.
While its also true that Zyra/Annie/Fiddles are going to be really strong (IMO Annie/Fids more than Zyra due to the nerfs and Zyra's slightly weak levels 1-2 compared to Annie/Fiddles) they suffer from the same issues that the traditional supports do. The need to build a gold item and Sightstone before building their damage. Additionally its not their scaling which makes them dangerous and good as Supports its their ability to work in a 2v2 lane.
Think about why Orianna isn't a good support. Its not because of her base damage, base ability damage, auto attack damage/range, or general strength. Those are all amazing. Its because if you miss your command attack you're useless for 3-5 seconds. In mid lane, alone, you can counter this by backing off yourself or using it to clear minions and give yourself the advantage. Additionally you can more easily leverage auto attacks against a mid than you can against an ADC. Where auto attack harassing will almost always trade two for one unless your ADC is very on point with your attacks.
Annie on the other hand doesn't have this issue. She can't miss her Q and her W is hard to miss. In a duo lane centered around auto attack range with bushes to provide cover the range on her abilities is less important. So while Annie has problems in Mid she has less in bot. Similarly fiddles doesn't get much from his fear mid lane but gets a lot out of it when he has a partner to back him up. It is also easier for him to get advantageous crow bounces because in mid lane you can back away from creeps in order to reduce the likelyhood but bottom you have to do that AND split yourselves in order to make that work
*Though i would argue that this is less of a threat now that DFG has been nerfed and its harder to straight up buy Veigar/Syndra level 1v1 burst.
I don't want to turn this into a comparison thread, but I do like how DOTA doesn't give a damn if supports can deal damage
Yeah, let's have an ult deal a potential 17k damage without items, that's cool
Supports should do good damage, I think the problem is that marksmen are so fragile at the early levels, that damage dealing supports just murder them.
I'm not sure I have a problem with a champ type that has ADC scaling being really hard to get going.
That said, as Salvation said, AP ratios is a good way to fix that, along with lower base damage at low ranks, that quickly escalates. Vlad Q is a good example of a pretty weakspell at rank 1 that becomes a character defining spell at rank 5, being as it deals about 6x more DPS and HPS, as compared to, for example, Annie Q, which grows in power by a little under 3x.
I don't want to turn this into a comparison thread, but I do like how DOTA doesn't give a damn if supports can deal damage
Yeah, let's have an ult deal a potential 17k damage without items, that's cool
Supports should do good damage, I think the problem is that marksmen are so fragile at the early levels, that damage dealing supports just murder them.
Then you make their Level 1 damage shit and their Level 12 damage meaningful
This shit is not that difficult
Problem is league has item scaling instead of meaningful ability scaling. Which means that supports won't do decent damage unless they get items, or they are utterly broken when paired with items. Perhaps having absurd base values with almost no item scaling is one way to solve it, but that would just lead to them being played solo and destroying with their absurd base values at level ~8 or so and going full cdr/tank to amplify that into winning before the other team can build items for the people who need them to be effective.
All told, if you really want supports to be more impactful damagewise, it is easier to somehow give them more gold, which S4 is trying.
Think about why Orianna isn't a good support. Its not because of her base damage, base ability damage, auto attack damage/range, or general strength. Those are all amazing. Its because if you miss your command attack you're useless for 3-5 seconds.
Not sure about this. I'd say the reason that Ori isn't a good support at the moment is because she needs items and/or blue buff; her 0 item utility isn't quite good enough to compensate for bringing no damage and her horrendous mana problems. With more gold I think she's going to be in an alright spot, even if she won't be top tier (and I think Karma's going to be in a similar situation).
If Ori's Q gave hard CC of some form she'd probably have seen a lot of play in season 3.
I don't want to turn this into a comparison thread, but I do like how DOTA doesn't give a damn if supports can deal damage
Yeah, let's have an ult deal a potential 17k damage without items, that's cool
Supports should do good damage, I think the problem is that marksmen are so fragile at the early levels, that damage dealing supports just murder them.
Good? I don't think there's anything wrong at all with the idea of marksmen being weak early game and strong late, with supports having the opposite power curve.
Right now we've got a weird situation where some marksmen are very strong in lane and it makes even the strongest supports feel relatively weak at what should be their strongest point. When I think about lane bullies in bot lane at the moment, I think Lucian, Cait and Draven.
Not really sure that that is true. Lane bullies are enabled by their supports being strong (maybe with the exception of Lucian because he is both a strong fighter and has an escape) just as strong supports are enabled by a lane bully. Part of the reason that people think lane bullies are so strong compared to supports is that there are very few non-lane bully supports left. Everyone besides Janna who can't play bloodsport at level 2/3 is out of favor because the ones that can go bloodsport all over the ones that cant.
I mean if i have Lucian/Janna and you have Sona/Varus, it doesn't matter that Lucian is a bully ahead of Varus. Sona/Varus are going to out bully Lucian/Janna. Sona will buy D-shield first back and then rofl stomp Q Powerchord Lucian's face off while Janna can do nothing to stop it. They will double ult Janna/Lucian at level 6 and kill them before Lucian can get an E off to escape. On the other hand reverse the situation so that its Lucian/Sona and Janna/Varus. Varus actually has a slight edge in this lane because he can Q on the back end of a fight after Lucian has E'd away. But with Sona it doesn't matter. Because Lucian has the sutain and poke advantage. Because the Sona/Lucian combined poke will force Varus out of lane.
Now i know I am comparing one of the best bully supports to one of the worst. But it explains the situation very well. The only time the relative power of the ADC overpowers that of the Support is in gross missmatches. (Like Cait/Vayne). But in closer matches the support matters a lot.
Edit: I am not sure what ELO you're at Burnage, but even at my ELO people are really bad about getting countered bottom lane(they pick into it a lot and pick poor first picks who can easily be countered). And i think this carries over to seeing more the disparities in ADC's than those in supports. I cannot tell you how many times i've been wrecked in lane because someone thought they would pick a marginal bully with my Janna and then get outpicked with a hard counter or counter to my support pick.
Over 32 million people tuned into the match via online streaming, and across TV stations in China, Korea, and "other countries." This is in comparison to the 8.2 million fans that viewed last year's Season 2 finals, a number which was also surpassed by a Season 3 peak viewership of over 8.5 million people that included both Online and TV numbers.
Imagine if Riot could sponsor a major Dominion event that got even, let's say, 2% of these numbers. That would likely lead to a sustained increase in the mode, and if they could achieve something as radical as say, 25%, Dominion would be gigantic.
Think about why Orianna isn't a good support. Its not because of her base damage, base ability damage, auto attack damage/range, or general strength. Those are all amazing. Its because if you miss your command attack you're useless for 3-5 seconds.
Not sure about this. I'd say the reason that Ori isn't a good support at the moment is because she needs items and/or blue buff; her 0 item utility isn't quite good enough to compensate for bringing no damage and her horrendous mana problems. With more gold I think she's going to be in an alright spot, even if she won't be top tier (and I think Karma's going to be in a similar situation).
If Ori's Q gave hard CC of some form she'd probably have seen a lot of play in season 3.
Nah, Ori is one of the strongest lane bullies mid where she gets items she still doesn't see a tonne of play. Its the same reason that Ori only played by the very best players in the world and even then only really in competitive games where her team can communicate a missed ability, and even then will still straight lose the game on a missed Q every once and a while. Ori only really needs a lot of mana to clear waves not to harass or fight in lane. She doesn't really buy a lot of scaling damage as much as she buys CDR and MP/5 to mitigate her Q weakness. Her max scaling damage is lower than Annie and comparable to Lux who are some of the comparatively lowest scaling damage in the game but her base damages are pretty good* and her auto attack is nearly as strong as Lulu's (but much snappier).
Ori's problem is this. If she misses her Q her ULT and W are on cooldown for 3-5 seconds. If she misses her ult she can do nothing for 3-5 more seconds. If she can shield someone she can only ult whomever is around them.
Otherwise think what she provides right now. She gets free zone control in the bush due to ball vision. She can hold the ball there to prevent the enemy support from sticking around in there and doesn't even need to use a ward. She can then leverage this vision to harass the enemy. The only problem is that as soon as she uses that Q on the bush the enemy team can exploit it and attack your carry. You can shield him and speed him up but that is ALL you can do. You can't do damage you can't slow you can't ult. If you don't utilize the bush vision you have the same problem if you miss your abilities.
*You have to realize that Orianna has an extra damage ability as compared to many mages. Her combo is Q,R,W,E. Q moves the ball and does damage, R keeps them in, W does damage, and E does damage as it moves to shield (and then with the shield you can move in to auto attack). This combo however requires you to hit your Q and your ult
Sona doesn't have on demand CC before she hits 6 either. But she is a strong support before that because her Q + Powerchord are more or less guaranteed
Edit: Additionally there are two other problems
1) Her escape realistically only effects 1 person. She has to E and W and so her support and herself have to be close together to make it work on both. This is not always viable due to AoE CC abilities
2) She has to level up 3 abilities to be effective which makes her power spike late rather than early. Q in order to reduce the CD and minimize her downtime. W to do damage/slow more/speed up more. E to shield most. If she levels Q first her base damages are actually kinda low. Q has great sustained damage but bottom lane brawls are more bursty. 30 damage/level and still probably not getting two off in a fight is low. W gets 45/level and more slow which is what you would want to level first. On a 9 second CD this is comparable to Sona's Q damage (50/level on a 7 second CD) but since you get better bonus AA damage all the time and base damage on Q and E your team fight is actually a bit stronger.
I like bears. I really dig Sej in concept. Kick ass lady on a bear? Sign me up.
Does she have a steep learning curve?
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Over 32 million people tuned into the match via online streaming, and across TV stations in China, Korea, and "other countries." This is in comparison to the 8.2 million fans that viewed last year's Season 2 finals, a number which was also surpassed by a Season 3 peak viewership of over 8.5 million people that included both Online and TV numbers.
Imagine if Riot could sponsor a major Dominion event that got even, let's say, 2% of these numbers. That would likely lead to a sustained increase in the mode, and if they could achieve something as radical as say, 25%, Dominion would be gigantic.
Riot pls.
32 million is insane. Like bona fide better than TV numbers. The walking dead I think hit 24 million for their season opener?
I don't want to turn this into a comparison thread, but I do like how DOTA doesn't give a damn if supports can deal damage
Yeah, let's have an ult deal a potential 17k damage without items, that's cool
Supports should do good damage, I think the problem is that marksmen are so fragile at the early levels, that damage dealing supports just murder them.
Then you make their Level 1 damage shit and their Level 12 damage meaningful
This shit is not that difficult
Problem is league has item scaling instead of meaningful ability scaling. Which means that supports won't do decent damage unless they get items, or they are utterly broken when paired with items. Perhaps having absurd base values with almost no item scaling is one way to solve it, but that would just lead to them being played solo and destroying with their absurd base values at level ~8 or so and going full cdr/tank to amplify that into winning before the other team can build items for the people who need them to be effective.
I don't think expecting most supports to do the same kind of damage as, say, Fiddles or Annie at level 1-6 is that out there. Maybe very slightly less to compensate for the utility on their spells. Damage, in many ways, is its own utility.
Over 32 million people tuned into the match via online streaming, and across TV stations in China, Korea, and "other countries." This is in comparison to the 8.2 million fans that viewed last year's Season 2 finals, a number which was also surpassed by a Season 3 peak viewership of over 8.5 million people that included both Online and TV numbers.
Imagine if Riot could sponsor a major Dominion event that got even, let's say, 2% of these numbers. That would likely lead to a sustained increase in the mode, and if they could achieve something as radical as say, 25%, Dominion would be gigantic.
Riot pls.
32 million is insane. Like bona fide better than TV numbers. The walking dead I think hit 24 million for their season opener?
I'm guessing it's not 32 million concurrent, but total.
Still fucking incredible, but I would love to know how many concurrents they managed. Probably into the millions at least.
But an example is dreamhack summer 2011, which had over 3 million total, maxed at 179k concurrent.
edit: TI3 seems to have broken 1 mil concurrent, so figures league would pull a fair bit more.
The buff to his Q slow makes him an unstoppable chaser again. His early tower dive potential is maximum.
9/21 with flat AD reds/quints. His clear times are insanely fast while maxing Q. Pretty sure he has one of the best jungle clear times next to Shyv. Ancient Golem->Tabi->(Locket/SV/Randuins/Hydra/Thornmail/Sunfire) to preference.
Yeah, Olaf getting his chase back is nice but unfortunately if your team is megaderplord and doesn't take any CC and/or your top lane also goes something squishy you're pretty fucked. I also found he'd get pretty low on mana with Q spam, which can leave him vulnerable on invades, but YMMV.
IMO I'd really want Mallet on him these days if you can swing it, I just don't know when you'd build it. Last time I got to play him I tried out Golem->Swiftness->Cutlass and then had to go tanky after that. The chase was pretty good but I definitely feel like I want the Mallet to get even more control back on. I'd even try to just do Pickaxe instead of Cutlass if I was doing that, then Giant's Belt+Chain+Negatron then finish things.
I don't really think you can afford to build mallet on anyone, it's too weak of an item. Shurelya or Randuins (active) work far better in terms of locking down a target long enough to kill them. I tried Bork but I don't really like it as Olaf often has to run in, burst while soaking up damage and get out. Bork is more of a constant dueling item. While Olaf can do that, in teamfights it's not likely to be what you are able to do. I tried it on him and it feels really shitty.
Speaking of invades Olaf is one of the better jungle duelists. He absolutely shits on Lee unless Lee is ahead or catches Olaf offguard when Lee is one of the junglers I hate seeing the most. He'd probably have more trouble versus Udyr and Shyv but he's a big jungle and 2v2 bully.
I like bears. I really dig Sej in concept. Kick ass lady on a bear? Sign me up.
Does she have a steep learning curve?
No. She is fairly straight forward and awesome. The only tricks to her kit are the following:
1) Q lets her move through terrain, be aware of that.
2) You can Q and Flash during the animation to gain extra distance to hit the knock up. This works precisely like Shen's dashing taunt ability.
3) When you Q and land it, you want to press W and auto attack to trigger the frost debuff, then hit your E to slow the target so they take the full amount of W damage.
4)If you press your W but aren't in auto range, you can press W again after like 1 second and start the whirling animation, this is really strong when someone is just outside of your auto range, but the W can still hit them.
5) Your R has a really really long range, and even if it doesn't hit someone dead on, it will slow them if they're within the shatter radius of the throw.
The buff to his Q slow makes him an unstoppable chaser again. His early tower dive potential is maximum.
9/21 with flat AD reds/quints. His clear times are insanely fast while maxing Q. Pretty sure he has one of the best jungle clear times next to Shyv. Ancient Golem->Tabi->(Locket/SV/Randuins/Hydra/Thornmail/Sunfire) to preference.
Yeah, Olaf getting his chase back is nice but unfortunately if your team is megaderplord and doesn't take any CC and/or your top lane also goes something squishy you're pretty fucked. I also found he'd get pretty low on mana with Q spam, which can leave him vulnerable on invades, but YMMV.
IMO I'd really want Mallet on him these days if you can swing it, I just don't know when you'd build it. Last time I got to play him I tried out Golem->Swiftness->Cutlass and then had to go tanky after that. The chase was pretty good but I definitely feel like I want the Mallet to get even more control back on. I'd even try to just do Pickaxe instead of Cutlass if I was doing that, then Giant's Belt+Chain+Negatron then finish things.
I don't really think you can afford to build mallet on anyone, it's too weak of an item. Shurelya or Randuins (active) work far better in terms of locking down a target long enough to kill them. I tried Bork but I don't really like it as Olaf often has to run in, burst while soaking up damage and get out. Bork is more of a constant dueling item. While Olaf can do that, in teamfights it's not likely to be what you are able to do. I tried it on him and it feels really shitty.
Speaking of invades Olaf is one of the better jungle duelists. He absolutely shits on Lee unless Lee is ahead or catches Olaf offguard when Lee is one of the junglers I hate seeing the most. He'd probably have more trouble versus Udyr and Shyv but he's a big jungle and 2v2 bully.
I was thinking Mallet to offset for lack of lockdown but Randuin's would also work if you can burst hard enough, that's fair. I dunno, I miss building Mallet on melee bruisers.
You think Hydra is better at running in and bursting and getting out than BoRK? I don't know that I agree with that. IMO Hydra is the constant dueling item since you're more likely to get a second use out of it, whereas BoRK just gives you a burst, slow, and the lifegain once at the start (or whenever).
And yeah, I dunno, I was getting dumpstered even by Elise on invades, was pretty shitty. Having to walk back and forth to catch the axe in a stationary fight is sketchy as hell.
Jungle Olaf isn't that great of a duelist if you're maxing Q which you probably will be. The CD on his non maxed E is an eternity. The free attack speed from his passive and the attack speed on his W help, but a lot of popular junglers can handle him 1v1. Pre 6 Elise should definitely smash him. He's not really tanky without items so early game he can be susceptible.
I agree that he beats Lee Sin in 1v1 and 2v2 though.
I am trying to figure out if Nautilus would be a better jungler or support in season 4. He seems like a pretty boss support with all his cc to help his marksman out.
Now i know I am comparing one of the best bully supports to one of the worst. But it explains the situation very well. The only time the relative power of the ADC overpowers that of the Support is in gross missmatches. (Like Cait/Vayne). But in closer matches the support matters a lot.
Sure, I wasn't saying that the support doesn't matter at all. Obviously they do. But I certainly feel that the power levels between supports and marksmen are much, much closer than they should be in the early levels of the game. Sona might be one of the strongest early game supports, but it's not uncommon (in my experience, at least) for a Cait or Draven to be able to smack her and her marksman around even when their own support is playing poorly.
Edit: I am not sure what ELO you're at Burnage, but even at my ELO people are really bad about getting countered bottom lane(they pick into it a lot and pick poor first picks who can easily be countered). And i think this carries over to seeing more the disparities in ADC's than those in supports. I cannot tell you how many times i've been wrecked in lane because someone thought they would pick a marginal bully with my Janna and then get outpicked with a hard counter or counter to my support pick.
I'm Gold 1, and I still see things like the odd first pick Leona. It's not quite as bad a few months ago but I'll agree that many players don't take bot lane synergy and counters into account when picking for it.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
u dudes are all bad the reason orianna sux is that these bads are building ap orianna
orianna should be AD check her attack speed scaling omg...
I am trying to figure out if Nautilus would be a better jungler or support in season 4. He seems like a pretty boss support with all his cc to help his marksman out.
I've always felt like support Nautilus has the drawbacks of Leona and Blitzcrank without the benefits of either.
I am trying to figure out if Nautilus would be a better jungler or support in season 4. He seems like a pretty boss support with all his cc to help his marksman out.
I've always felt like support Nautilus has the drawbacks of Leona and Blitzcrank without the benefits of either.
Only think Leona has he doesn't really is that her hook type thing goes through minions it seems to me. I haven't played Blitz since I started playing again so I can't really compare them so you'd have to enlighten me on what he brings Naut doesn't.
Use a move command after a hop to cancel the wind-down animation then immediately attack after the move command, then hit the next hop to cancel the auto-attack wind-down animation then repeat until there is nothing left to murder.
Use a move command after a hop to cancel the wind-down animation then immediately attack after the move command, then hit the next hop to cancel the auto-attack wind-down animation then repeat until there is nothing left to murder.
This is one of the reasons I'll never be super good at games. I'm a bad clicker
Use a move command after a hop to cancel the wind-down animation then immediately attack after the move command, then hit the next hop to cancel the auto-attack wind-down animation then repeat until there is nothing left to murder.
hmm I think I was already doing this instinctively. I just never realized it.
Posts
@spool32 Thank you! I own them all already, and unfortunately, @burnage beat you to it. Thanks though guys, I would have missed this without you all and it warms my heart.
yeah I think that would good as well, but Riot doesn't think so, so *shrug*
WAT?
OK lets break it down
1) ADC's lategame scaling is a necessity to have lategames that end and are not slapfights between tanks and are also not dumb hypercarry 1v5 shit.
2) ADC's ride the coattails of 0 CS supports winning their lane for them at level
3) The problem has never been 0 CS supports the problem has been that support abilities are amazingly strong and create balance issues elsewhere. Its just as much an issue when mids become supports as it is when supports become mids. And supports that scale tend to become mids really really fast*.
I mean lets be honest here who has played Sona in ARAM? Who thinks that Sona loses lane?
If Sona doesn't lose lane and Sona super dunks when she has lots of Gold who is going to think that Sona is going to have a problem in Season 4 even with some reduced ratios? Sure she has to buy Lucky Pick and Sightstone first. But Lucky pick has AP on it and Sightstone has HP on it, two things she wants to build anyway! I think I am kinda OK with Sona having her laning power reduced a bit and her scaling cut back.
While its also true that Zyra/Annie/Fiddles are going to be really strong (IMO Annie/Fids more than Zyra due to the nerfs and Zyra's slightly weak levels 1-2 compared to Annie/Fiddles) they suffer from the same issues that the traditional supports do. The need to build a gold item and Sightstone before building their damage. Additionally its not their scaling which makes them dangerous and good as Supports its their ability to work in a 2v2 lane.
Think about why Orianna isn't a good support. Its not because of her base damage, base ability damage, auto attack damage/range, or general strength. Those are all amazing. Its because if you miss your command attack you're useless for 3-5 seconds. In mid lane, alone, you can counter this by backing off yourself or using it to clear minions and give yourself the advantage. Additionally you can more easily leverage auto attacks against a mid than you can against an ADC. Where auto attack harassing will almost always trade two for one unless your ADC is very on point with your attacks.
Annie on the other hand doesn't have this issue. She can't miss her Q and her W is hard to miss. In a duo lane centered around auto attack range with bushes to provide cover the range on her abilities is less important. So while Annie has problems in Mid she has less in bot. Similarly fiddles doesn't get much from his fear mid lane but gets a lot out of it when he has a partner to back him up. It is also easier for him to get advantageous crow bounces because in mid lane you can back away from creeps in order to reduce the likelyhood but bottom you have to do that AND split yourselves in order to make that work
*Though i would argue that this is less of a threat now that DFG has been nerfed and its harder to straight up buy Veigar/Syndra level 1v1 burst.
I'm not sure I have a problem with a champ type that has ADC scaling being really hard to get going.
That said, as Salvation said, AP ratios is a good way to fix that, along with lower base damage at low ranks, that quickly escalates. Vlad Q is a good example of a pretty weakspell at rank 1 that becomes a character defining spell at rank 5, being as it deals about 6x more DPS and HPS, as compared to, for example, Annie Q, which grows in power by a little under 3x.
Problem is league has item scaling instead of meaningful ability scaling. Which means that supports won't do decent damage unless they get items, or they are utterly broken when paired with items. Perhaps having absurd base values with almost no item scaling is one way to solve it, but that would just lead to them being played solo and destroying with their absurd base values at level ~8 or so and going full cdr/tank to amplify that into winning before the other team can build items for the people who need them to be effective.
All told, if you really want supports to be more impactful damagewise, it is easier to somehow give them more gold, which S4 is trying.
Not sure about this. I'd say the reason that Ori isn't a good support at the moment is because she needs items and/or blue buff; her 0 item utility isn't quite good enough to compensate for bringing no damage and her horrendous mana problems. With more gold I think she's going to be in an alright spot, even if she won't be top tier (and I think Karma's going to be in a similar situation).
If Ori's Q gave hard CC of some form she'd probably have seen a lot of play in season 3.
Not really sure that that is true. Lane bullies are enabled by their supports being strong (maybe with the exception of Lucian because he is both a strong fighter and has an escape) just as strong supports are enabled by a lane bully. Part of the reason that people think lane bullies are so strong compared to supports is that there are very few non-lane bully supports left. Everyone besides Janna who can't play bloodsport at level 2/3 is out of favor because the ones that can go bloodsport all over the ones that cant.
I mean if i have Lucian/Janna and you have Sona/Varus, it doesn't matter that Lucian is a bully ahead of Varus. Sona/Varus are going to out bully Lucian/Janna. Sona will buy D-shield first back and then rofl stomp Q Powerchord Lucian's face off while Janna can do nothing to stop it. They will double ult Janna/Lucian at level 6 and kill them before Lucian can get an E off to escape. On the other hand reverse the situation so that its Lucian/Sona and Janna/Varus. Varus actually has a slight edge in this lane because he can Q on the back end of a fight after Lucian has E'd away. But with Sona it doesn't matter. Because Lucian has the sutain and poke advantage. Because the Sona/Lucian combined poke will force Varus out of lane.
Now i know I am comparing one of the best bully supports to one of the worst. But it explains the situation very well. The only time the relative power of the ADC overpowers that of the Support is in gross missmatches. (Like Cait/Vayne). But in closer matches the support matters a lot.
Edit: I am not sure what ELO you're at Burnage, but even at my ELO people are really bad about getting countered bottom lane(they pick into it a lot and pick poor first picks who can easily be countered). And i think this carries over to seeing more the disparities in ADC's than those in supports. I cannot tell you how many times i've been wrecked in lane because someone thought they would pick a marginal bully with my Janna and then get outpicked with a hard counter or counter to my support pick.
Imagine if Riot could sponsor a major Dominion event that got even, let's say, 2% of these numbers. That would likely lead to a sustained increase in the mode, and if they could achieve something as radical as say, 25%, Dominion would be gigantic.
Riot pls.
Nah, Ori is one of the strongest lane bullies mid where she gets items she still doesn't see a tonne of play. Its the same reason that Ori only played by the very best players in the world and even then only really in competitive games where her team can communicate a missed ability, and even then will still straight lose the game on a missed Q every once and a while. Ori only really needs a lot of mana to clear waves not to harass or fight in lane. She doesn't really buy a lot of scaling damage as much as she buys CDR and MP/5 to mitigate her Q weakness. Her max scaling damage is lower than Annie and comparable to Lux who are some of the comparatively lowest scaling damage in the game but her base damages are pretty good* and her auto attack is nearly as strong as Lulu's (but much snappier).
Ori's problem is this. If she misses her Q her ULT and W are on cooldown for 3-5 seconds. If she misses her ult she can do nothing for 3-5 more seconds. If she can shield someone she can only ult whomever is around them.
Otherwise think what she provides right now. She gets free zone control in the bush due to ball vision. She can hold the ball there to prevent the enemy support from sticking around in there and doesn't even need to use a ward. She can then leverage this vision to harass the enemy. The only problem is that as soon as she uses that Q on the bush the enemy team can exploit it and attack your carry. You can shield him and speed him up but that is ALL you can do. You can't do damage you can't slow you can't ult. If you don't utilize the bush vision you have the same problem if you miss your abilities.
*You have to realize that Orianna has an extra damage ability as compared to many mages. Her combo is Q,R,W,E. Q moves the ball and does damage, R keeps them in, W does damage, and E does damage as it moves to shield (and then with the shield you can move in to auto attack). This combo however requires you to hit your Q and your ult
Sona doesn't have on demand CC before she hits 6 either. But she is a strong support before that because her Q + Powerchord are more or less guaranteed
Edit: Additionally there are two other problems
1) Her escape realistically only effects 1 person. She has to E and W and so her support and herself have to be close together to make it work on both. This is not always viable due to AoE CC abilities
2) She has to level up 3 abilities to be effective which makes her power spike late rather than early. Q in order to reduce the CD and minimize her downtime. W to do damage/slow more/speed up more. E to shield most. If she levels Q first her base damages are actually kinda low. Q has great sustained damage but bottom lane brawls are more bursty. 30 damage/level and still probably not getting two off in a fight is low. W gets 45/level and more slow which is what you would want to level first. On a 9 second CD this is comparable to Sona's Q damage (50/level on a 7 second CD) but since you get better bonus AA damage all the time and base damage on Q and E your team fight is actually a bit stronger.
Bears.
I like bears. I really dig Sej in concept. Kick ass lady on a bear? Sign me up.
Does she have a steep learning curve?
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
32 million is insane. Like bona fide better than TV numbers. The walking dead I think hit 24 million for their season opener?
I don't think expecting most supports to do the same kind of damage as, say, Fiddles or Annie at level 1-6 is that out there. Maybe very slightly less to compensate for the utility on their spells. Damage, in many ways, is its own utility.
I would say that Sej is incredibly simple.
Charge into fools, W fools, E fools. Don't miss your ult.
I'm guessing it's not 32 million concurrent, but total.
Still fucking incredible, but I would love to know how many concurrents they managed. Probably into the millions at least.
But an example is dreamhack summer 2011, which had over 3 million total, maxed at 179k concurrent.
edit: TI3 seems to have broken 1 mil concurrent, so figures league would pull a fair bit more.
Speaking of invades Olaf is one of the better jungle duelists. He absolutely shits on Lee unless Lee is ahead or catches Olaf offguard when Lee is one of the junglers I hate seeing the most. He'd probably have more trouble versus Udyr and Shyv but he's a big jungle and 2v2 bully.
No. She is fairly straight forward and awesome. The only tricks to her kit are the following:
1) Q lets her move through terrain, be aware of that.
2) You can Q and Flash during the animation to gain extra distance to hit the knock up. This works precisely like Shen's dashing taunt ability.
3) When you Q and land it, you want to press W and auto attack to trigger the frost debuff, then hit your E to slow the target so they take the full amount of W damage.
4)If you press your W but aren't in auto range, you can press W again after like 1 second and start the whirling animation, this is really strong when someone is just outside of your auto range, but the W can still hit them.
5) Your R has a really really long range, and even if it doesn't hit someone dead on, it will slow them if they're within the shatter radius of the throw.
Man, I like Koi Nami, but I am so, so bad at Nami...
You think Hydra is better at running in and bursting and getting out than BoRK? I don't know that I agree with that. IMO Hydra is the constant dueling item since you're more likely to get a second use out of it, whereas BoRK just gives you a burst, slow, and the lifegain once at the start (or whenever).
And yeah, I dunno, I was getting dumpstered even by Elise on invades, was pretty shitty. Having to walk back and forth to catch the axe in a stationary fight is sketchy as hell.
I agree that he beats Lee Sin in 1v1 and 2v2 though.
something something 8000 dollars.
PSN: BrightWing13 FFX|V:ARR Bright Asuna
Very, very much this.
I am sorry, we are expensive to feed.
Ultimate defense if you miss your ult:
"Rozz taught me everything I know"
"Im just a bear."
PSN: BrightWing13 FFX|V:ARR Bright Asuna
Sure, I wasn't saying that the support doesn't matter at all. Obviously they do. But I certainly feel that the power levels between supports and marksmen are much, much closer than they should be in the early levels of the game. Sona might be one of the strongest early game supports, but it's not uncommon (in my experience, at least) for a Cait or Draven to be able to smack her and her marksman around even when their own support is playing poorly.
I'm Gold 1, and I still see things like the odd first pick Leona. It's not quite as bad a few months ago but I'll agree that many players don't take bot lane synergy and counters into account when picking for it.
orianna should be AD check her attack speed scaling omg...
Nashors + Wits + Hurricane. Gotta rock that passive.
Shouldn't have given up playing the piano all those years ago, obviously.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
This is true, just watched xpeke dominate dudes with AD ori.
explain?
This is one of the reasons I'll never be super good at games. I'm a bad clicker
hmm I think I was already doing this instinctively. I just never realized it.