I really have a hard time believing that Lucian is now horribly OP when the consensus not long ago was that there was no reason to pick him over other ADCs.
Of course there are always reasons for each view, but the fact is that whether one view or other is defended depends purely on trend.
Lucian was never bad. When he came out most of us said "His Q takes getting used to, his W sucks other than for proccing passive, and his ult is pretty trash in most scenarios." All of this remains true today. Some people like @Sampsen were like "Trust me guys, even in spite of those things his passive makes him a beast."
They also slightly buffed him in 3.12 making his Q lead champs, but the biggest thing that made him explode was when Corki was nerfed, because after Corki's buffs he was even more of a stupidly auto-won lane than Lucian is now.
Welp. I have played enough to improve my fundamentals from cardboard to high bronze. When I'm not playing MM or Support, I'm enjoying jungle. Faves are Volibear, Wukong, and when playing with my friends in a 5 man aoe comp - Amumu. Suggestions for who to pick up next? Seems like Udyr and Shyvanna are hawt?
Welp. I have played enough to improve my fundamentals from cardboard to high bronze. When I'm not playing MM or Support, I'm enjoying jungle. Faves are Volibear, Wukong, and when playing with my friends in a 5 man aoe comp - Amumu. Suggestions for who to pick up next? Seems like Udyr and Shyvanna are hawt?
I think Udyr is in a good spot, but I would honestly avoid Shyvana, I feel like she is on the way to nerftown.
Some advice though, if you don't mind me giving it, is to stick with what you know you like. You will get far more LP being a master of 2 champs than you will being competent at 10.
Welp. I have played enough to improve my fundamentals from cardboard to high bronze. When I'm not playing MM or Support, I'm enjoying jungle. Faves are Volibear, Wukong, and when playing with my friends in a 5 man aoe comp - Amumu. Suggestions for who to pick up next? Seems like Udyr and Shyvanna are hawt?
I think Udyr is in a good spot, but I would honestly avoid Shyvana, I feel like she is on the way to nerftown.
Some advice though, if you don't mind me giving it, is to stick with what you know you like. You will get far more LP being a master of 2 champs than you will being competent at 10.
I still find it funny that they talk about having to nerf Poppy more if she ever sees play, but they let Riven by with no nerfs.
Two vastly different situations. You can tune Riven mechanically. Adjust some numbers, reduce a duration, alter an Ultimate. Her signature as a character(Her Q) is fundamentally not unbalanced in the least, so no matter what you do for her, you have a baseline identity.
Poppy's baseline identity is going immune to nearly all damage, pinning her target to a wall/turret, and pounding them into dust, with LITERALLY no counter play. That is Poppy's identity as a character.
Her Charge/Wall Pin by itself, isn't good enough, design wise, to base your entire kit off of it. Meanwhile, Diplo is too goddamn broken of a mechanic to balance at all. Too short and it's useless. Too long and she is an invincible godqueen. There is no in between.
Both of her signature abilities remove counterplay from the equation. Which, in turn, make her impossible to tune.
Even now, the only reason why Poppy isn't disabled is because she's physically unable to get to 25 minutes in the current meta, jungle or otherwise. Because once she does, no matter what you build, she becomes invincible, and then GETS WORSE as time goes on.
Honestly, it's pretty incredible that a design that bad has continued to exist for this long.
Oh, question. Is there any actual way to beat a decent Lucian in lane?
The best strategy against him that I've come up with so far is "survive laning and hope that my team's marksman outscales him", but if there's an alternative I'd love to hear it.
No. Bot lane is about winning trades until it's time to all in. Much like pre-nerf Draven before him, Lucian wins trades with everybody and wins most all ins. I mean, you can obviously win the lane if the enemy support is better than Lucian's support, etc. But assuming equal footing all around, Lucian's passive makes him take a dump on all comers.
Sivir, shield beats his harass, your harass is off the chain. Don't do trades, don't do all ins, just bully him out.
Sivir is right up there with Lucian and Jinx right now as the strongest ADCs, but her strength is mostly about her spellshield and her ult. Her spellshield has a very long CD at early levels. Lucian can Q several times while she waits on her shield to be back, and on top of that she might have to spellshield his support's harass too. Then he just Es directionally when she Qs and get free double shots on her and takes no damage from her Q. She definitely doesn't beat him in lane without wildly outplaying him.
sivir is almost permaban at OGN right now
speaking of "kits that were released that the NA general public thought were trash"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. These kits were trash until nerfs/buffs. Sivir has been regarded as insanely powerful ever since her rework. Lucian was garbage until he got buffed and Corki, the burst king, got nerfed to shit. Nasus being a powerhouse again in S4 means Lucian is doubly effective. Lucian's Q, before it was buffed to track targets, was as shit as Corki's Q is now that you can casually walk out of its targeting circle before it lands.
Tired of hearing this line 800 times about every strong champion. "People thought Ez was bad but then..!" but then he got a ton of buffs. Shocking.
+6
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
I don't understand this. I don't think I can watch SaltyTeemo, I'm not the right kind of person.
Singed without Tenacity
Caitlyn with Ignite/Teleport and builds BT/Shiv/Hurricane
Nocturne with Elder Lizard/PD/Hydra
Oh, question. Is there any actual way to beat a decent Lucian in lane?
The best strategy against him that I've come up with so far is "survive laning and hope that my team's marksman outscales him", but if there's an alternative I'd love to hear it.
No. Bot lane is about winning trades until it's time to all in. Much like pre-nerf Draven before him, Lucian wins trades with everybody and wins most all ins. I mean, you can obviously win the lane if the enemy support is better than Lucian's support, etc. But assuming equal footing all around, Lucian's passive makes him take a dump on all comers.
Sivir, shield beats his harass, your harass is off the chain. Don't do trades, don't do all ins, just bully him out.
Sivir is right up there with Lucian and Jinx right now as the strongest ADCs, but her strength is mostly about her spellshield and her ult. Her spellshield has a very long CD at early levels. Lucian can Q several times while she waits on her shield to be back, and on top of that she might have to spellshield his support's harass too. Then he just Es directionally when she Qs and get free double shots on her and takes no damage from her Q. She definitely doesn't beat him in lane without wildly outplaying him.
sivir is almost permaban at OGN right now
speaking of "kits that were released that the NA general public thought were trash"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. These kits were trash until nerfs/buffs. Sivir has been regarded as insanely powerful ever since her rework. Lucian was garbage until he got buffed and Corki, the burst king, got nerfed to shit. Nasus being a powerhouse again in S4 means Lucian is doubly effective. Lucian's Q, before it was buffed to track targets, was as shit as Corki's Q is now that you can casually walk out of its targeting circle before it lands.
Tired of hearing this line 800 times about every strong champion. "People thought Ez was bad but then..!" but then he got a ton of buffs. Shocking.
The truth for these statements are typically in the middle. Ezreal is a great example. Ez was already doing well in the asian meta. People had already figured out the revolutionary strategy of "max W". He was doing very well, but he was not yet the powerhouse that he would be. Then he received mana reductions to his W, strengthening the playstyle that had not yet caught on in the NA scene. This was the catalyst to clue people in on it, and Ez exploded. While he would have been good without the buff (and people didn't respect that he would have been good without it), it carried him to the representation he eventually got.
Both the Lucian and Sivir buffs did nothing more than make them further excel at what they already were good at. You can argue that they weren't good enough at that thing to be competitive but that's because only the characters that are overpowered were competitive.
Lucian and Sivir were good at release but the public rejected them. The public rejected Draven initially too! Doublelift famously called him trash. It took some time - and no buffs - to get Draven competitively popular and he was eventually nerfed for it. Whatever your feelings on how people receive new champions, it has been the case for the last year that people do a very poor job of evaluating a new ADC's strengths, apparently to a greater degree than other roles for some reason.
+1
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I would like to use Hurricane sometime, but I can't think of any situation it actually makes sense on a marksman.
It's makes too much sense
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I still think Hurricane is decent on Jinx if you're okay with giving up some dueling power for increased teamfighting poke and faster tower killing.
On Jinx? You'll get far better poke with straight AD and a Statik Shiv than you ever will with a Hurricane. What would you take out of the standard marksman build for the Hurricane?
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I still think Hurricane is decent on Jinx if you're okay with giving up some dueling power for increased teamfighting poke and faster tower killing.
On Jinx? You'll get far better poke with straight AD and a Statik Shiv than you ever will with a Hurricane. What would you take out of the standard marksman build for the Hurricane?
For some reason I see Twitchs build the Hurricane often. I'm pretty sure it happens every game that I play against a Twitch
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
On-hit Teemo with hurricane is pretty lol-worthy imo.
@ Sampsen and I Needed a... Thanks for the tips. Sejuani was interesting when free, but didn't click for me. Will revisit.
I've been trying to get a little time with every champion, just enough that I know their kit when I'm facing them. Can I all in or will they destroy me? Can I steal blue and cripple their first five minutes in jungle? Etc. So learning the other popular junglers is my goal, not finding a new main champ for that role.
I assume hurricane is popular at low elo because it covers a lot weaknesses players at level have. Helps with last hitting/farming, you indecentally push which helps with taking towers, and the attack speed helps people chase better (I assume bronze 5 players mostly right click to chase instead of orb walking).
I will note that the exception to my "people underestimate new ADCs this year" rule is Jinx whom everyone recognized as the avatar of our lord and saviour Infinity Edge made flesh.
C'mon. This is absurd. Nerfs to Corki may have been the reason for Lucian's increase in popularity, but he is exactly as strong as he was before those nerfs. So if he was not overpowered before he is not overpowered now.
When they nerf Lucian and another ADC becomes FOTM will it get nerfs too? And then the next one that becomes popular? This looks like the opposite of power creep.
C'mon. This is absurd. Nerfs to Corki may have been the reason for Lucian's increase in popularity, but he is exactly as strong as he was before those nerfs. So if he was not overpowered before he is not overpowered now.
When they nerf Lucian and another ADC becomes FOTM will it get nerfs too? And then the next one that becomes popular? This looks like the opposite of power creep.
riot is pretty consistent about nerfing an adc that flat out wins any trade.
On-hit Teemo with hurricane is pretty lol-worthy imo.
@ Sampsen and I Needed a... Thanks for the tips. Sejuani was interesting when free, but didn't click for me. Will revisit.
I've been trying to get a little time with every champion, just enough that I know their kit when I'm facing them. Can I all in or will they destroy me? Can I steal blue and cripple their first five minutes in jungle? Etc. So learning the other popular junglers is my goal, not finding a new main champ for that role.
There are far, far too many variables in every game to be able to learn that information by just playing champions a handful of times each. I really really mean it that you are better off by playing a couple champions obsessively. You will fully understand when you can invade with Volibear because you've played him 300 times and have seen many different situations, whereas if you play Nocturne 5 times, you will learn very, very little outside of his kit. Yes, that jungle Taric one time wrecked your shit, but why did he? If you were playing your main, you would have a much clearer picture of what happened and what you could do to not have it happen again, but if it's a champion you aren't comfortable on, it won't tell you much.
Playing a game or two to understand their kits can be useful, but you aren't going to get more in-depth information without playing a ton of games on a champion.
I still think Hurricane is decent on Jinx if you're okay with giving up some dueling power for increased teamfighting poke and faster tower killing.
On Jinx? You'll get far better poke with straight AD and a Statik Shiv than you ever will with a Hurricane. What would you take out of the standard marksman build for the Hurricane?
PD or Shiv. I'm fairly sure a pure AD build with Hurricane on her is likely to deal more damage overall in a teamfight than Shiv will - the range increase to her rocket splash is pretty substantial. For single targets Shiv is absolutely better, though.
When they nerf Lucian and another ADC becomes FOTM will it get nerfs too? And then the next one that becomes popular? This looks like the opposite of power creep.
It's also exactly how Riot balances, so yes, this is what will happen.
C'mon. This is absurd. Nerfs to Corki may have been the reason for Lucian's increase in popularity, but he is exactly as strong as he was before those nerfs. So if he was not overpowered before he is not overpowered now.
When they nerf Lucian and another ADC becomes FOTM will it get nerfs too? And then the next one that becomes popular? This looks like the opposite of power creep.
He was that strong for one patch. 3.12 saw Lucian quality of life buffs, 3.13 saw Corki gutted. Suddenly there's a gap opening for a ranged burst ADC with an escape! The reason you see Riot constantly tuning the flavor of the month ADC is because it makes the non-tournament bot lane options really boring. It's often just strongest champ X and champions who lane comfortably against champ X.
I still think Hurricane is decent on Jinx if you're okay with giving up some dueling power for increased teamfighting poke and faster tower killing.
On Jinx? You'll get far better poke with straight AD and a Statik Shiv than you ever will with a Hurricane. What would you take out of the standard marksman build for the Hurricane?
PD or Shiv. I'm fairly sure a pure AD build with Hurricane on her is likely to deal more damage overall in a teamfight than Shiv will - the range increase to her rocket splash is pretty substantial. For single targets Shiv is absolutely better, though.
I don't think it would be good, but I understand your reasoning.
When they nerf Lucian and another ADC becomes FOTM will it get nerfs too? And then the next one that becomes popular? This looks like the opposite of power creep.
The problem with Hurricane is that you have to be within three people to use it effectively. If you're within three people as a marksmen, you're fucking dead.
Now, as a pushing item for range champs, I can see that. Make Shiv melee only and give Runaan's non-ASPD stats, and now you're going somewhere.
Posts
Edit - She is also #1 for the past month, which is even more telling.
Lucian was never bad. When he came out most of us said "His Q takes getting used to, his W sucks other than for proccing passive, and his ult is pretty trash in most scenarios." All of this remains true today. Some people like @Sampsen were like "Trust me guys, even in spite of those things his passive makes him a beast."
They also slightly buffed him in 3.12 making his Q lead champs, but the biggest thing that made him explode was when Corki was nerfed, because after Corki's buffs he was even more of a stupidly auto-won lane than Lucian is now.
I think Udyr is in a good spot, but I would honestly avoid Shyvana, I feel like she is on the way to nerftown.
Some advice though, if you don't mind me giving it, is to stick with what you know you like. You will get far more LP being a master of 2 champs than you will being competent at 10.
and one of those two champions should be Sejuani
PSN: rlinkmanl
Two vastly different situations. You can tune Riven mechanically. Adjust some numbers, reduce a duration, alter an Ultimate. Her signature as a character(Her Q) is fundamentally not unbalanced in the least, so no matter what you do for her, you have a baseline identity.
Poppy's baseline identity is going immune to nearly all damage, pinning her target to a wall/turret, and pounding them into dust, with LITERALLY no counter play. That is Poppy's identity as a character.
Her Charge/Wall Pin by itself, isn't good enough, design wise, to base your entire kit off of it. Meanwhile, Diplo is too goddamn broken of a mechanic to balance at all. Too short and it's useless. Too long and she is an invincible godqueen. There is no in between.
Both of her signature abilities remove counterplay from the equation. Which, in turn, make her impossible to tune.
Even now, the only reason why Poppy isn't disabled is because she's physically unable to get to 25 minutes in the current meta, jungle or otherwise. Because once she does, no matter what you build, she becomes invincible, and then GETS WORSE as time goes on.
Honestly, it's pretty incredible that a design that bad has continued to exist for this long.
Tired of hearing this line 800 times about every strong champion. "People thought Ez was bad but then..!" but then he got a ton of buffs. Shocking.
Singed without Tenacity
Caitlyn with Ignite/Teleport and builds BT/Shiv/Hurricane
Nocturne with Elder Lizard/PD/Hydra
whyyyyyyy
because bronze 5, that's why.
Joe's Stream.
These are all reasons to be watching SaltyTeemo.
The truth for these statements are typically in the middle. Ezreal is a great example. Ez was already doing well in the asian meta. People had already figured out the revolutionary strategy of "max W". He was doing very well, but he was not yet the powerhouse that he would be. Then he received mana reductions to his W, strengthening the playstyle that had not yet caught on in the NA scene. This was the catalyst to clue people in on it, and Ez exploded. While he would have been good without the buff (and people didn't respect that he would have been good without it), it carried him to the representation he eventually got.
Both the Lucian and Sivir buffs did nothing more than make them further excel at what they already were good at. You can argue that they weren't good enough at that thing to be competitive but that's because only the characters that are overpowered were competitive.
Lucian and Sivir were good at release but the public rejected them. The public rejected Draven initially too! Doublelift famously called him trash. It took some time - and no buffs - to get Draven competitively popular and he was eventually nerfed for it. Whatever your feelings on how people receive new champions, it has been the case for the last year that people do a very poor job of evaluating a new ADC's strengths, apparently to a greater degree than other roles for some reason.
They eat that shit up.
OP, nerf Hurricane.
"It's pretty much +200% attack speed"
Kog'Maw and his super-shred?
It's makes too much sense
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
On Jinx? You'll get far better poke with straight AD and a Statik Shiv than you ever will with a Hurricane. What would you take out of the standard marksman build for the Hurricane?
Fuck your other items. Triforce.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
For some reason I see Twitchs build the Hurricane often. I'm pretty sure it happens every game that I play against a Twitch
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
@ Sampsen and I Needed a... Thanks for the tips. Sejuani was interesting when free, but didn't click for me. Will revisit.
I've been trying to get a little time with every champion, just enough that I know their kit when I'm facing them. Can I all in or will they destroy me? Can I steal blue and cripple their first five minutes in jungle? Etc. So learning the other popular junglers is my goal, not finding a new main champ for that role.
I assume hurricane is popular at low elo because it covers a lot weaknesses players at level have. Helps with last hitting/farming, you indecentally push which helps with taking towers, and the attack speed helps people chase better (I assume bronze 5 players mostly right click to chase instead of orb walking).
When they nerf Lucian and another ADC becomes FOTM will it get nerfs too? And then the next one that becomes popular? This looks like the opposite of power creep.
riot is pretty consistent about nerfing an adc that flat out wins any trade.
Joe's Stream.
talk about living the dream
Joe's Stream.
There are far, far too many variables in every game to be able to learn that information by just playing champions a handful of times each. I really really mean it that you are better off by playing a couple champions obsessively. You will fully understand when you can invade with Volibear because you've played him 300 times and have seen many different situations, whereas if you play Nocturne 5 times, you will learn very, very little outside of his kit. Yes, that jungle Taric one time wrecked your shit, but why did he? If you were playing your main, you would have a much clearer picture of what happened and what you could do to not have it happen again, but if it's a champion you aren't comfortable on, it won't tell you much.
Playing a game or two to understand their kits can be useful, but you aren't going to get more in-depth information without playing a ton of games on a champion.
PD or Shiv. I'm fairly sure a pure AD build with Hurricane on her is likely to deal more damage overall in a teamfight than Shiv will - the range increase to her rocket splash is pretty substantial. For single targets Shiv is absolutely better, though.
It's also exactly how Riot balances, so yes, this is what will happen.
I don't think it would be good, but I understand your reasoning.
now you're getting it
everything is relative
Now, as a pushing item for range champs, I can see that. Make Shiv melee only and give Runaan's non-ASPD stats, and now you're going somewhere.
http://blog.ibuypower.com/2013/12/doublelifts-pre-s4-ad-tier-list/