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[East Asia] - Korean zombies: Leaner. Faster. More lit.

2456778

Posts

  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Also, in what way is the comparison between Yasukuni and Arlington inaccurate? I don't know much about the former but from a brief wiki'ing it does seem to be their nation's equivalent of Arlington.

    Well for one thing, no actual people are buried at Yasukuni. Its just a religious Shinto shrine dedicating those the fell in defense of Japan. For most of its existence it wasn't that big a deal, but in the late 80s the son of the founder added several Class A war criminals to the shrine. That is people that specifically order atrocities against civilian as part of Japan's war time strategy. The guys behind the 3 All's policy in china for example. That's the Loot All, Burn All and Kill All policy that killed millions of Chinese citizens. They also added thousands of Korean forced laborers to shrine, despite them being slave labor. Needless to say that even the most negative interpretation of "victors justice" can wash away what these guys did. There is also a museum attached to the shrine, dedicating to whitewash the war and portray Japans actions as justified.

    This event made Yasukuni into a ultra-nationalist shrine. Emperor Hirohito who had visited the shrine yearly prior, stopped going in response.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
    KalkinoshrykeCorehealerSCREECH OF THE FARG
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    Abe is a right-wing nationalist. I'll make no apologies for his stances. But he's Prime Minister - he's no more representative of Japanese people as a whole than George W Bush was.

    But apologising for WW2 and related activities has become this massive canard in the politics of the region, and I do think it's odd that the totalitarian government of China gets listened to at all.

    I used to have this as my sig here because I got so sick of hearing about the lack of apologies from Japan for the atrocities of WW2.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

    It's a pretty long list.

    Japan doesn't have a bigger fascism problem that any other nation, and definitely has less of a problem than the profoundly undemocratic and totalitarian Chinese government.

    I figure I could take a bear.
    CasualSynthesisGrey PaladinEvigilantAndy JoeCorehealerSCREECH OF THE FARGzagdrob
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Who leads a country says something about what that country values. Abe being a right-wing nationalist and Prime Minister say something about Japan.

    As did the election of Dubya for the US.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Who leads a country says something about what that country values. Abe being a right-wing nationalist and Prime Minister say something about Japan.

    As did the election of Dubya for the US.

    Yes it does. But not something as simple as the thread title would have it.

    I figure I could take a bear.
    Grey PaladinAlegis
  • krapst78krapst78 Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    It's not so much the lack of apologies but the constant re-framing of the issue by such elected leaders that make it a continuing issue. When the current leader make it a focus on whether or not they need re-interpret past apologies, it makes them seem disingenuous or at the very least somewhat insensitive. Remember, even just three short years ago, the Seoul-Tokyo relationship was extremely rosy, and part of that was due to Kan's clear stance on this issue.

    krapst78 on
    Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father prepare to die!
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Who leads a country says something about what that country values. Abe being a right-wing nationalist and Prime Minister say something about Japan.

    As did the election of Dubya for the US.

    Yes it does. But not something as simple as the thread title would have it.

    Welcome Posh! Wondering when you'd show up.

    And between you and me, did you think a thread about this subject at this forum wouldn't have this level of hyperbole? I certainly didn't.
    krapst78 wrote: »
    It's not so much the lack of apologies but the constant re-framing of the issue by such elected leaders that make it a continuing issue. When the current leader make it a focus on whether or not they need re-interpret past apologies, it makes them seem disingenuous or at the very least somewhat insensitive. Remember, even just three short years ago, the Seoul-Tokyo relationship was extremely rosy, and part of that was due to Kan's clear stance on this issue.

    Popular rhetoric--which is a major, though not lone, part of this issue--would disagree. Korean politicians, in Seoul and elsewhere, strongly criticized the Yasukini Shrine reverence (and of other shrine visits as well). Well before that, I remember multiple Korean politicians voicing disappointment with Lee Teng-hui's visit to Yasukini (this was around 2001 I think?). Which wasn't really any more surprising than Lee visiting in memory of his dead brother from the Second World War. Then you have the textbook revisionism issue and Japan's dodging around of a comfort women/military brothel apology issue as well, which was probably more prevalent three years ago than today.

    Definitely not 'extremely rosy' by any stretch of the imagination. Just better then they are now.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    I would also point out that "Rosy" Tokyo-Seoul relationship was before an election. Abe really got elected not on his right wing nationalism but on his promise to help fix the stagnating economy and the deflation that was hurting the economy. His right wing connections are part of his campaigning but the not key to his campaign. Another reason that the right wing nationalist have gained more power in the last few years is really China and its outright rhetoric against Japan. Even if the buying of the Senkaku/Diaoyu was a dumb idea though nothing actually changed in the claim nor was anything built there and it was just set up as a preserve it lead violent anti-Japanese riots in China. China this point keeps poking Japan with a stick which gives the Japanese right wing more fodder and more power. And thus the Chinese can keep point at the Japanese and boost the CCP credibility but even so this is not the reason Abe got elected.

    Also part of it isn't just Tokyo's fault. Park is a right winger as far as it goes at poking Japan as well. The nationalist rhetoric that came out of her during her campaign did nothing to engender her to Tokyo or help with rocky relations due to Japan's own economic woes and foreign relations issues. Relations are a two way street and Korea isn't doing a lot to help it.

    After sitting through more than my fair share of public school history courses in Japan I can tell you they sure as hell don't shy away from their atrocities or that the public ignores them. But this is also a country that still supports having a pacifism clause in its constitution even with China banging at its door for the last few years. Article 9 is the pacifism clause by the way.
    It said 54% of respondents wanted to see the parliamentary system, built on two chambers, changed, while just 38% said Article 9 should be rewritten. Mr. Abe has said he wants to focus on changing Article 96 of the constitution, which states that support from more than two-thirds of both upper and lower houses is necessary to hold a public referendum asking for proposed constitutional changes

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323372504578464622440869226

    03x29di.png
  • krapst78krapst78 Registered User regular
    I'm specifically referring to the period from about 2009 to 2011 where Korea-Japan relations were looking pretty good overall. The rise of the DPJ in Japan, the heavily Pro-US Korean administration, and perceived growing mutual threat from China and NK made it seem like Japan and Korea might have enough common ground for real change. Japan and Korea made some pretty strident advances economically and politically during that period, including a pretty huge credit swap agreement, re-opening talks to co-construct an undersea tunnel to connect Korea and Japan, and even Mitsubishi Heavy Industries agreed to open negotiations for reparations for forced labor during WW2. Heck, they even started talks for a Free Trade Agreement, and was THIS close to signing a bilateral intelligence sharing defense treaty. Korea was even willing to sell Japan their KAAV amphibious assault vehicles during this time, right before things went sour.

    Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father prepare to die!
  • krapst78krapst78 Registered User regular
    Yeah, there is definitely as much blame to go around in Korea. Park's predecessor Lee Myung Bak screwed things up when he visited Dokdo/Takeshima in 2012. Things haven't improved with Park who barely even acknowledges Abe except to publicly admonish him to the Korean press.

    Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father prepare to die!
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    These things to go in cycles though. That period of cooperation had a period of chilly relations with the textbook incidents of 2004 and the Dokdo/Takeshima arguments rising up. Once Park is more comfortable in power and if Abe stabilizes the economy and maybe some work with the US in the middle we might see a move back to better negotiations and relations. I think part of the problem is that China's actions are giving the nationalist in Japan way more power than they should have and Park's focus on domestic and NK are really meaning there won't be movement for a bit.

    Though hopefully someone pulls their collective heads out of their asses soon. Korea and Japan are two giants with similar domestic and economic issues and if they worked together they might be able to work through them more than the traditional airing of grievances from WWII.

    On another front with the grievances I will see if I can find it but at one point the Emperor said he would be willing to come to Korea and apologize himself. Now he doesn't have any real power but symbolically this would be groundbreaking huge. A couple of my Korean friends said this would probably help a bunch with the relations.

    03x29di.png
  • CindersCinders Whose sails were black when it was windy Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    That's what I meant by "insufficient maternity support"--I wanted it fit it in one sentence.

    Also, Japan actually does a phenomenal job with contraceptive and birth control access--probably the best in East Asia, as a consequence of having the smoothest-operating healthcare system. That's almost certainly lowering the overall birthrate at the behest of young women and men. You may have misunderstood me, Cinders.

    EDIT: Included for relevance: by the criteria you've listed, South Korea is actually substantially worse for working women (which is, frankly, a very low bar to leap over and doesn't help any of Japan's problems). When weighing the male-female income disparity, the number of married working women, and maternity support, the Economist scored South Korea somewhat under half that of Japan, second lowest on their list. They're followed by Switzerland (which I think most people here would find surprising) and the Czech Republic (which some would argue doesn't fit fully into the 'full industrialized nation' criteria).

    20130309_gdc194.png

    It's a handy reference, though I don't think it's a great indicator of birth rates. Not sure if PNGs show up on this forum properly, so bear with me.

    EDIT EDIT: Also, to hell with The Economist for putting Slovakia on the list, but not Taiwan. I would like to hope we're not unincluded because we came after South Korea...

    I think you may be misunderstanding me actually. To put it simply, I am saying that sexism inherent in Japanese society has a substantial direct negative effect on the birth rate. While Japan does have excellent birth control access, this in of itself is not the cause of the progressive drop in the birth rate. And on maternity care, as I said, ON PAPER Japan actually has maternity care available. 14 weeks off, and 2/3 paid salary which makes it better than the US. BUT, due to sexism in society this is irrelevant. There is a cultural expectation that mothers will leave the workforce to focus on being mothers. This viewpoint is incompatible with maintaining a higher birth rate in a developed country. If you look at developed countries with higher birth rates, you'll find that they have an expectation that the mother will return to work. For example, France, Sweden, Norway and the UK all have birth rates which are only slightly lower than the replenishment rates. But, in every one of those cultures, the mother has the option/expectation of returning to her job after her maternity leave. For reference, here is a paper that specifically addresses Sweden's fertility rates.
    http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol13/22/
    The Swedish system has a clear child-oriented perspective. It is child-friendly by being woman-friendly. It emphasizes the “equal right of working women to also have children” instead of “the right of mothers to have employment”(a formulation due to Alva Myrdal). There is nothing about the system that works toward enabling mothers to stay home and take care of their children; quite on the contrary, the whole system encourages women to get a job and keep it (“arbetslinjen”).

    As the costs of children rises, it's simple to understand that cutting off one half of a families income is going to make families more reluctant to actually form families.

    And the Japanese government knows this. Abe has been trying to get more women into the workplace, and in positions of leadership. But, his efforts haven't been successful. Here is the response from the conservative parts of the government. And the private sector is also reluctant to tackle the changes that Abenomics wants.

    As for why it's hard to find statistics for Taiwan included in these lists of nations, it's probably due to nobody wanting to piss off China. You can go to Taiwan's government sites to get the relevant data and compare it to everyone else though. Kind of a pain in the ass though.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Cinders wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    That's what I meant by "insufficient maternity support"--I wanted it fit it in one sentence.

    Also, Japan actually does a phenomenal job with contraceptive and birth control access--probably the best in East Asia, as a consequence of having the smoothest-operating healthcare system. That's almost certainly lowering the overall birthrate at the behest of young women and men. You may have misunderstood me, Cinders.

    EDIT: Included for relevance: by the criteria you've listed, South Korea is actually substantially worse for working women (which is, frankly, a very low bar to leap over and doesn't help any of Japan's problems). When weighing the male-female income disparity, the number of married working women, and maternity support, the Economist scored South Korea somewhat under half that of Japan, second lowest on their list. They're followed by Switzerland (which I think most people here would find surprising) and the Czech Republic (which some would argue doesn't fit fully into the 'full industrialized nation' criteria).

    20130309_gdc194.png

    It's a handy reference, though I don't think it's a great indicator of birth rates. Not sure if PNGs show up on this forum properly, so bear with me.

    EDIT EDIT: Also, to hell with The Economist for putting Slovakia on the list, but not Taiwan. I would like to hope we're not unincluded because we came after South Korea...

    I think you may be misunderstanding me actually. To put it simply, I am saying that sexism inherent in Japanese society has a substantial direct negative effect on the birth rate. While Japan does have excellent birth control access, this in of itself is not the cause of the progressive drop in the birth rate. And on maternity care, as I said, ON PAPER Japan actually has maternity care available. 14 weeks off, and 2/3 paid salary which makes it better than the US. BUT, due to sexism in society this is irrelevant. There is a cultural expectation that mothers will leave the workforce to focus on being mothers. This viewpoint is incompatible with maintaining a higher birth rate in a developed country. If you look at developed countries with higher birth rates, you'll find that they have an expectation that the mother will return to work. For example, France, Sweden, Norway and the UK all have birth rates which are only slightly lower than the replenishment rates. But, in every one of those cultures, the mother has the option/expectation of returning to her job after her maternity leave. For reference, here is a paper that specifically addresses Sweden's fertility rates.
    http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol13/22/
    The Swedish system has a clear child-oriented perspective. It is child-friendly by being woman-friendly. It emphasizes the “equal right of working women to also have children” instead of “the right of mothers to have employment”(a formulation due to Alva Myrdal). There is nothing about the system that works toward enabling mothers to stay home and take care of their children; quite on the contrary, the whole system encourages women to get a job and keep it (“arbetslinjen”).

    As the costs of children rises, it's simple to understand that cutting off one half of a families income is going to make families more reluctant to actually form families.

    And the Japanese government knows this. Abe has been trying to get more women into the workplace, and in positions of leadership. But, his efforts haven't been successful. Here is the response from the conservative parts of the government. And the private sector is also reluctant to tackle the changes that Abenomics wants.

    As for why it's hard to find statistics for Taiwan included in these lists of nations, it's probably due to nobody wanting to piss off China. You can go to Taiwan's government sites to get the relevant data and compare it to everyone else though. Kind of a pain in the ass though.

    I understand you and don't disagree--you worded it to sound very differently. It's a combination of a multitude of factors, which would include contraceptive availability (you can look at the very different levels of availability between similarly industrialized Japan and S. Korea just two decades ago). But they're definitely not the only factor (and I never claimed they were). Also, The Economist regularly includes Taiwan on statistic charts of economic growth, industrial output, and other factors, particularly for rising economies--so that's not it. China doesn't care if Taiwan appears on charts, not even the Chinese claim that it's the same economy. Can't blame the Chinese for that one!
    krapst78 wrote: »
    I'm specifically referring to the period from about 2009 to 2011 where Korea-Japan relations were looking pretty good overall. The rise of the DPJ in Japan, the heavily Pro-US Korean administration, and perceived growing mutual threat from China and NK made it seem like Japan and Korea might have enough common ground for real change. Japan and Korea made some pretty strident advances economically and politically during that period, including a pretty huge credit swap agreement, re-opening talks to co-construct an undersea tunnel to connect Korea and Japan, and even Mitsubishi Heavy Industries agreed to open negotiations for reparations for forced labor during WW2. Heck, they even started talks for a Free Trade Agreement, and was THIS close to signing a bilateral intelligence sharing defense treaty. Korea was even willing to sell Japan their KAAV amphibious assault vehicles during this time, right before things went sour.

    Sales and exchange of military hardware aren't a great indicator I'd say--they were much more prolific decades ago when Japan-Korea relations were substantially worse, particularly during the height of the Korean military dictatorship in Seoul. I can see what you mean by some headway, but there were just as much stumbling to me, particularly around 2008. I wouldn't blame Seoul for that over Tokyo (with the exception of some of the hardline rhetoric that came out against both Japan and the US in the wake of the Gwangju Massacre in 1980, which was obviously under very different circumstances). Compared to certain years in the Fourth and Fifth Republics, relations definitely were more polite around 2008 by comparison.
    Mazzyx wrote: »

    After sitting through more than my fair share of public school history courses in Japan I can tell you they sure as hell don't shy away from their atrocities or that the public ignores them. But this is also a country that still supports having a pacifism clause in its constitution even with China banging at its door for the last few years. Article 9 is the pacifism clause by the way.
    It said 54% of respondents wanted to see the parliamentary system, built on two chambers, changed, while just 38% said Article 9 should be rewritten. Mr. Abe has said he wants to focus on changing Article 96 of the constitution, which states that support from more than two-thirds of both upper and lower houses is necessary to hold a public referendum asking for proposed constitutional changes

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323372504578464622440869226

    Criminal behavior in wartime is something really no country does well, not even Germany--where an excellent job, as far as I can tell, is done addressing the annihilation of the Jewish community, but it's fairly acceptable to gloss over the obliteration of +20 million Slavs as "an unfortunate consequence of war with the totalitarian Soviet Union," and calls academics who complain about it 'Osties'. I first learned about the Rape of Nanking in Yokohama in a Catholic School--but until quite recently, it was nearly common for historians delving into the topic too deeply to be harassed and threatened by right-wing organized and the like (weirdly, I haven't heard about any physical intimidation nowadays--I think it's all on the internet now, which could be just as bad). And Amerindian Genocide just isn't a topic in High School History--you stop at the Trail of Tears and that's about it, as far as I know. The notion that Japan is unique with this problem (as is commonly held on this forum) is frankly, ridiculous, if you have even a basic knowledge of Turkey's education in regards to Armenia or Pakistan in regards to what was the eastern half of their country before 1971. It's pervasive, depressing, and an great example of the limited field of vision people are programmed into having, into only caring about crimes against victims they care about (or perpetrators they dislike).

    This is the sort of thing that's left up to the college/university level, unfortunately. In Taiwan, we got off completely scott-free for our involvement in Japanese atrocities in China as the oldest possession of the Empire, but then again, people still debate whether or not it's appropriate to teach about the 40-year White Terror. Complicity with Japanese war crimes is way off on the horizon at this rate.

    [/academic tangent]

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • JohanFlickJohanFlick Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    So no actual examples of Abe's denial of Japan's atrocities during WWII. Abe's cabinet worst "crime" seems to be comparison of Yasukuni shrine to Arlington's cemetery.

    No justification why Abe is being called "sexist and reactionary" in the OP.

    Government of Japan is called "fascist" in the thread title because LDP is supposed to be "right-wing party." Why? No explanation. I guess they are to the right of the second largest party, but that's like calling republicans "right-wing party" because they are to the right of democrats. There are real right-wing nuts in Japan, and they have very dangerous views toward the country neighbors, but it's not LDP.

    Honestly, it would be easier to have a discussion about Asia's politics if the thread OP and title wasn't loaded with very negative opinions about Japan.

    Edit: Just noticed that the thread title was changed. Thank you.

    JohanFlick on
  • simonwolfsimonwolf so enough of this terror we deserve to know lightRegistered User regular
    Having visited Yasukuni Shrine and the attached museum, there's certainly some things to be said about the way that they paint the Sino-Japanese wars, along with that whole "memorial for the one judge who said that the Japanese war criminals were not guilty" thing

    but I'm really not interested in engaging in this when the thread's OP contains the statement "I wouldn't trust Japan in war either if I think their troops to swerve around to South Korea and get their rape on"

  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Just going to point out we have really swerved out of the original OP. Might want to read some of the monster posts around here. Really been moving towards China and its numerous ways of pissing off its neighbors or Japanese Korean relations and such.

    @Synthesis

    It is very very difficult for a country to come forward and talk about atrocities in war or outside of war. I think part of the reason Japan gets picked out is because the atrocities tend to still be used as fodder for politicians in Korea and China. I am working on building a nice write up on nationalistic education in China and how this shift in the early 1990's is one of the major root causes of the current Sino-Japanese split. I will probably also write up the energy shift that occurs around there as well.

    Taiwan actually the outcast of this because as a government they have pretty good relations with Japan as the fishing rights agreement over Senkaku/Diaoyu. But I would say the Japanese treatment of Taiwan was very different than its treatment of Korea, Manchuria and its conquered territory on mainland China. Hell even compared to its treatment of Okinawa.

    I should also dig up my old stuff on the Japanese Imperialist(Emperor hard right wing) and their protest and threats towards theaters and other venues who are showing or selling something they consider insulting the imperial household. It is an interesting and very scary minority in Japan.

    03x29di.png
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    @Synthesis

    It is very very difficult for a country to come forward and talk about atrocities in war or outside of war. I think part of the reason Japan gets picked out is because the atrocities tend to still be used as fodder for politicians in Korea and China. I am working on building a nice write up on nationalistic education in China and how this shift in the early 1990's is one of the major root causes of the current Sino-Japanese split. I will probably also write up the energy shift that occurs around there as well.

    Taiwan actually the outcast of this because as a government they have pretty good relations with Japan as the fishing rights agreement over Senkaku/Diaoyu. But I would say the Japanese treatment of Taiwan was very different than its treatment of Korea, Manchuria and its conquered territory on mainland China. Hell even compared to its treatment of Okinawa.

    You can put it pretty simply: the eldest generation in Taiwan, at best, remembers the two decades or so of Japanese rule (my grandmother included), and then the first decades of Chinese rule. In between that, the Allies (read: American bomber aircraft) destroyed 90% of Taiwanese industrial wealth and coal production, but that was a relatively short time. The fact that they preferred being Imperial Japanese subjects to living under the Kuomintang "Fortress Island" state speaks a lot to the different styles of civil government between the two--they stopped being involved in government (a small number of Taiwanese sat in the Japanese House of Peers, by contrast), and the local self-ruling elites were destroyed (sometimes by being dead). They still feel this way, in large part because of the White Terror and 40 years of institutional racism from the Mainland minority. There are no Taiwanese alive today who remember the bloodiest days of Japanese imperial authority, around 1900 or so, but plenty who remember the 228 Terror and the Chinese response to the Revolt. The younger generations grew up in a post-capitalist dictatorship and have not really been negatively affected by Japan (nor mainland China, which has led to a rapprochement between both sides). Indeed, in the 1980s, Japan was the only meaningful democracy in East Asia, and was a point of reference for Taiwanese democratic activists.

    Actual aboriginal Taiwanese had a similar dilemma: the Japanese militarized them and actual earned a lot of respect among the traditional headhunter lifestyle, albeit through violence. The Chinese became known for institutional racism, even worse then what was aimed at the majority, the way the Japanese were known for schools. This has been termed "Han chauvenism", and left a lot (though not all) of the elderly sympathetic towards Japan. And after the end of the White Terror, they actually could express it by voting and political speech.

    I think similar situation exists with Ryukyuan (who are, unlike the Taiwanese, a Japanese nationality) in some respect: the elders remember the brutality of the Pacific War and the Japanese fortress tactics and forced labor. But the generation after them remembers the high-point of violence in the early American occupation (which was violent), and the generation after them has been shaped into wide opposition to the US military presence (and also opposition to the comparatively small Japanese military presence too). I'd need to ask the few I know still in Okinawa, but I can't imagine they're pleased with both the thought of rising military might or having their valid grievances towards the American presence put on a backburner.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Just wanted to clarify about that famous revisionist textbook - The New History Textbook, or 新しい歴史教科.

    From what I read a few years ago, it had been adopted for use in less than 2% of schools, and that number was falling.

    Edit: Just found a blog here:

    http://d.hatena.ne.jp/tsukurukaiwatch/

    Which says that as of 2011, the number of schools using the book was essentially zero.

    The government 'approves' many many books for use by schools. The school boards then choose which of those to use.

    The number of people who actually have views like those in that book is tiny. It's only through political pressure at the government level that it got approved at all, I believe. There is vanishingly little support for right-wing revisionism of WW2. As was said earlier, Abe was elected because he was the first Prime Minister in a long time who actually promised to do something concrete about the economy. Our Prime Ministers are usually cyphers, and can literally change without people noticing. 5 years ago, you could ask someone who the Prime Minister was and many people would have to think about it.

    What is very common is a number of people with a different idea of WW2 from the common Western narrative of the atomic bombs being used to save lives that would have been lost in a land invasion. There is general resentment of their own government of the time for them being, you know, a fascist military dictatorship combined with a religious cult. But there is also resentment towards the US government of the time for, you know, nuking them twice. And I think it's good to have a more nuanced view of WW2 than good guys vs bad guys, so I'm fine with that.

    Anyway, my general point is that Western reportage on Japanese political and cultural issues is generally terrible. It almost always ignores facts to fit popular western narratives of Japanese history and culture. The textbook controversy is one example of that. The apology insanity is another example. Nobody has had the slightest interest in a fundamental question - how many children are being taught from this book?

    The answer is 'almost nobody'.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
    CantidoSynthesisSCREECH OF THE FARG
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Just wanted to clarify about that famous revisionist textbook - The New History Textbook, or 新しい歴史教科.

    From what I read a few years ago, it had been adopted for use in less than 2% of schools, and that number was falling.

    Edit: Just found a blog here:

    http://d.hatena.ne.jp/tsukurukaiwatch/

    Which says that as of 2011, the number of schools using the book was essentially zero.

    The government 'approves' many many books for use by schools. The school boards then choose which of those to use.

    The number of people who actually have views like those in that book is tiny. It's only through political pressure at the government level that it got approved at all, I believe. There is vanishingly little support for right-wing revisionism of WW2. As was said earlier, Abe was elected because he was the first Prime Minister in a long time who actually promised to do something concrete about the economy. Our Prime Ministers are usually cyphers, and can literally change without people noticing. 5 years ago, you could ask someone who the Prime Minister was and many people would have to think about it.

    What is very common is a number of people with a different idea of WW2 from the common Western narrative of the atomic bombs being used to save lives that would have been lost in a land invasion. There is general resentment of their own government of the time for them being, you know, a fascist military dictatorship combined with a religious cult. But there is also resentment towards the US government of the time for, you know, nuking them twice. And I think it's good to have a more nuanced view of WW2 than good guys vs bad guys, so I'm fine with that.

    Anyway, my general point is that Western reportage on Japanese political and cultural issues is generally terrible. It almost always ignores facts to fit popular western narratives of Japanese history and culture. The textbook controversy is one example of that. The apology insanity is another example. Nobody has had the slightest interest in a fundamental question - how many children are being taught from this book?

    The answer is 'almost nobody'.

    The textbook outrage never really clicked with me, because it's not like our textbooks aren't bigoted, misogynistic, revisionist, and generally terrible.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    Yasuo Fukuda	2007–2008	 16 July 1936 (age 77)
    Taro Aso	2008–2009	 20 September 1940 (age 73)
    Yukio Hatoyama	2009–2010	 11 February 1947 (age 66)
    Naoto Kan	2010–2011	 10 October 1946 (age 67)
    Yoshihiko Noda	2011–2012	 20 May 1957 (age 56)
    

    And that's all I got to say about this.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Yasuo Fukuda	2007–2008	 16 July 1936 (age 77)
    Taro Aso	2008–2009	 20 September 1940 (age 73)
    Yukio Hatoyama	2009–2010	 11 February 1947 (age 66)
    Naoto Kan	2010–2011	 10 October 1946 (age 67)
    Yoshihiko Noda	2011–2012	 20 May 1957 (age 56)
    

    And that's all I got to say about this.

    And before that was Abe, right?

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Koizumi actually, the last PM to have a decently long term and also famous for visiting the war memorial giving ammo to these dumb jingoists in east asia.

    This is more dumb grandstanding.

    EDIT: No, you're right I completely forgot that Abe did take over. I completely forgot that he started the revolving door of PMs.

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  • ChrysisChrysis Registered User regular
    Invalidating election results based on vote disparity may or may not help. Will be interesting to see if the judiciary has finally had enough of the Diet sitting around ignoring the problem.

    http://mainichi.jp/english/english/newsselect/news/20131128p2g00m0dm037000c.html

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Yeah, I thought Koizumi was before Abe. I think he came in shortly before Dubya.

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Koizumi is probably the closest thing to a recognizable face among the Japanese PMs in the United States.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • krapst78krapst78 Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Sales and exchange of military hardware aren't a great indicator I'd say--they were much more prolific decades ago when Japan-Korea relations were substantially worse, particularly during the height of the Korean military dictatorship in Seoul. I can see what you mean by some headway, but there were just as much stumbling to me, particularly around 2008. I wouldn't blame Seoul for that over Tokyo (with the exception of some of the hardline rhetoric that came out against both Japan and the US in the wake of the Gwangju Massacre in 1980, which was obviously under very different circumstances). Compared to certain years in the Fourth and Fifth Republics, relations definitely were more polite around 2008 by comparison.
    Can you clarify the previous military sales and exchanges between South Korea and Japan? I know Japan made significant loans during Park Jung Hee and Chun Doo Hwan's dictatorships, but they weren't military in nature. I was under the assumption that Japan had a law that restricted them from exporting arms during these periods.

    The sales of the KAAV was big news because even though it was a relatively small deal, only around $30M USD, it was supposed to usher in new era of military cooperation between the two nations. This is also why Korea seems so hypocritical now for decrying Japan's suggestions of expanding of their military doctrine. If Korea is so concerned about Japan's first strike policy, why would they be so willing to sell them equipment that could be used to further those capabilities.
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Anyway, my general point is that Western reportage on Japanese political and cultural issues is generally terrible. It almost always ignores facts to fit popular western narratives of Japanese history and culture.
    This is also pretty much par for course with reportage on South Korea, especially when it comes to issues with North Korea. On the other side of the coin, a lot of Korean media coverage of US news is equally bad. Actually, scrap that, Korean media coverage is much worse. Imagine having multiple news channels, but they are all Fox News.

    krapst78 on
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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Predictably, South Korea and Japan also say "lol nope" to Chinas new air defence zone.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25133957

    I don't know what they expected to happen, I'm curious what Chinas next move will be. They seem to have painted themselves into a corner, it's not like they can actually start shooting down Japanese and Korean planes.

    Casual on
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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Reading through Yomimuri which I will admit I am still rusty as fuck but the next step is basically say silly things about Japan withdrawing from the islands and the zone.

    I actually was coming to post SK and Japan basically telling China nope! I mean this is a highly predictable outcome after the US sent a strong message flying B-52s through the airspace earlier. China has three choices now just keep blowing their horn and screaming until someone listens, go into negotiations with the parties involved and figure out real control lines or start intercepting planes and forcing identification. One of these leads to showing possible weakness since no one cares no matter how much they protest. One might lead them to having way less than they want but at least it will lead to a more permanent settlement. The last way could lead to a pretty nasty international incident if it goes wrong.

    03x29di.png
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    it's not like they can actually start shooting down Japanese and Korean planes.

    Well...

  • RalgRalg Registered User regular
    Totalitarian Chinese government?

    Really?

  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Predictably, South Korea and Japan also say "lol nope" to Chinas new air defence zone.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25133957

    I don't know what they expected to happen, I'm curious what Chinas next move will be. They seem to have painted themselves into a corner, it's not like they can actually start shooting down Japanese and Korean planes.

    South Korea and Japan will ignore it.

    China will say fuck you guys.

    South Korea and Japan will say no fuck you.

    Repeat the last two steps for a few months.

    UrQuanLord88Casual
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Predictably, South Korea and Japan also say "lol nope" to Chinas new air defence zone.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25133957

    I don't know what they expected to happen, I'm curious what Chinas next move will be. They seem to have painted themselves into a corner, it's not like they can actually start shooting down Japanese and Korean planes.

    South Korea and Japan will ignore it.

    China will say fuck you guys.

    South Korea and Japan will say no fuck you.

    Repeat the last two steps for a few months.

    You forgot to add the US fuck you as well.

    03x29di.png
    UrQuanLord88
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Nah.

    It's just assumed that once the initial parties have issued their respective fuck yous then all aligned embassies will forward their own fuck you memos to all correct parties.

  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Like, right this second Venezuela's faxing dick pics to Australia.

    This secret diplomatic struggle will be known as the 237th Great Pacific Slap Fight among inner circles.

    Jeep-Eep
  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I don't understand this air defense zone really.

    Is China claiming some sort of sovereignty on airspace 200 miles off their coast?

    PSN: Honkalot
  • ChrysisChrysis Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    I don't understand this air defense zone really.

    Is China claiming some sort of sovereignty on airspace 200 miles off their coast?

    Sort of. They're saying that it's important to their national safety, so you better have a good reason to be there. And to that end their response has been to apparently send up a fighter patrol and early warning plane.

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    China, the most passive aggressive country.

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    Ralg wrote: »
    Totalitarian Chinese government?

    Really?

    Is that directed at my post?

    I don't know of a better word to discuss it. In fact, I looked up the term, as I know nothing about political science, and was just using it in a casual sense, and China seems to fit very well. More so than authoritarian, which I thought was kinda the same, but apparently is defined differently.

    I sometimes feel that China's power and the passive-aggressive yelling/complaining they do to any negative press leads people to say their government are better than they are.

    People sometimes talk about them like they're comparable to a democracy-with-big-issues such as Russia or India. I don't think that's true at all.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Authoritarian actually would be a much better word. While power is heavily centralized in to a single body the Chinese government really doesn't seek out to control every single aspect of people's lives.

    I mean, I'm sure they, or at least a large faction of the CPC, would like to but it became plenty apparent that they couldn't do that and be prosperous. So they opted for the next best thing: Solidify their power and loosen up. Government control over people's lives has generally only decreased since '78. And while control asserted is certainly higher than a lot of countries I'd hardly call it totalitarian.

    kime
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    China's "worth" as a totalitarian state is probably already substantially limited by the extent to which the powers of the government of the PRC are defined, and how well that intent is actually enforced. And certain areas, its intent is enforced quite poorly (environmental regulations, economic law, and other areas). To be fair, the pharmaceutical industry in the United States might as well be run from Mars, the amount of control the US government exerts over it, but we're not judging the United States as a totalitarian state.

    But that may be an overly strict definition of totalitarian coming from me.
    krapst78 wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Sales and exchange of military hardware aren't a great indicator I'd say--they were much more prolific decades ago when Japan-Korea relations were substantially worse, particularly during the height of the Korean military dictatorship in Seoul. I can see what you mean by some headway, but there were just as much stumbling to me, particularly around 2008. I wouldn't blame Seoul for that over Tokyo (with the exception of some of the hardline rhetoric that came out against both Japan and the US in the wake of the Gwangju Massacre in 1980, which was obviously under very different circumstances). Compared to certain years in the Fourth and Fifth Republics, relations definitely were more polite around 2008 by comparison.
    Can you clarify the previous military sales and exchanges between South Korea and Japan? I know Japan made significant loans during Park Jung Hee and Chun Doo Hwan's dictatorships, but they weren't military in nature. I was under the assumption that Japan had a law that restricted them from exporting arms during these periods.

    I'm trying to find the PDF of the US government released report (dated mid 1970s), and I can't find it--I could be mistaken in thinking of some transaction with the US arms industry that involved both Japan and South Korea (long list of those). I'm sure that Japanese loans to South Korea went to military expenditures, but that's not a direct connection.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    it's not like they can actually start shooting down Japanese and Korean planes.

    Well...

    If China has managed to not start WW3 over the Taiwan issue, I seriously doubt they're going to kick off the end times over something like the Diaoyu Islands.

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    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
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