I do always wonder what Vietnam's end game is. They seem to lack regional allies, and their biggest friend seems to be Russia who's also buddies with China. Smart money saves Russia would not back Vietnam's claims, but push to maintain the stautus quo which allows China to chip away at the region.
Could it be only matter of time before China forces Vietnam to the US camp of allies (Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Taiwan). Would they welcome such an addition, or hope to force concessions such as opening up their government?
There's a rumor going around that Vietnam and the US are talking about providing the Americans naval basing rights in Vietnam.
I do always wonder what Vietnam's end game is. They seem to lack regional allies, and their biggest friend seems to be Russia who's also buddies with China. Smart money saves Russia would not back Vietnam's claims, but push to maintain the stautus quo which allows China to chip away at the region.
Could it be only matter of time before China forces Vietnam to the US camp of allies (Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Taiwan). Would they welcome such an addition, or hope to force concessions such as opening up their government?
China already pushed Vietnam into the US camp. Right now it is more formalizing that relationship. But there has already been speak of cooperation at all levels.
I would say we might not go fully to bat for them but Vietnam right now is firmly in the anti-China pro-US side of things in Asia.
This is what boggles my mind about Cuba. Here we have the example of Vietnam, where we actually fought one of our move divisive wars. We now have diplomatic relations, and are looking to fortify that country against aggressor nations. And then Cuba, which basically has the same kind of government, we can't even lift a trade embargo that hasn't done anything in 50 years.
This is what boggles my mind about Cuba. Here we have the example of Vietnam, where we actually fought one of our move divisive wars. We now have diplomatic relations, and are looking to fortify that country against aggressor nations. And then Cuba, which basically has the same kind of government, we can't even lift a trade embargo that hasn't done anything in 50 years.
Actually very different circumstances. The Vietnamese government very much was not antagonistic to the US especially after the Chinese war in 1979. There was no single large voting block to push for isolation. Vietnam was never strictly Soviet backed compared to Cuba. Also our history is much less intertwined.
A good description of Vietnam's view of the war was confusion on why the US would attack them. The war forgiveness of actions has been taking place for years.
Cuba though has had leaders who built power off anti-US rhetoric. Has a history of colonization with the US. And is also a short jaunt from Florida making it a different interaction.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited April 2016
Only makes that war more pointless and the sacrifices of US troops more in vain.
I like to scoff at isolationist nuts and China/Russia apologists and propagandists as much as anyone, but I get a cold tingle when I realize that, yeah, the U.S. really is working to encircle both of its major international frenemies with rings of bases. It's like a bunch of "WW III goes here" flags all over the map.
I like to scoff at isolationist nuts and China/Russia apologists and propagandists as much as anyone, but I get a cold tingle when I realize that, yeah, the U.S. really is working to encircle both of its major international frenemies with rings of bases. It's like a bunch of "WW III goes here" flags all over the map.
To be fair, Russia and China are doing most of the heavy lifting for us.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I like to scoff at isolationist nuts and China/Russia apologists and propagandists as much as anyone, but I get a cold tingle when I realize that, yeah, the U.S. really is working to encircle both of its major international frenemies with rings of bases. It's like a bunch of "WW III goes here" flags all over the map.
To be fair, Russia and China are doing most of the heavy lifting for us.
Oh, they suck to be sure. I'm just not super happy at the idea that everyone seems to be working toward an inevitable confrontation between global nuclear powers.
I like to scoff at isolationist nuts and China/Russia apologists and propagandists as much as anyone, but I get a cold tingle when I realize that, yeah, the U.S. really is working to encircle both of its major international frenemies with rings of bases. It's like a bunch of "WW III goes here" flags all over the map.
To be fair, Russia and China are doing most of the heavy lifting for us.
Oh, they suck to be sure. I'm just not super happy at the idea that everyone seems to be working toward an inevitable confrontation between global nuclear powers.
Eh, part of it is to ensure there's risk for the larger countries if they move on a smaller neighbor to keep both sides honest. If there are multiple ways to project power into the pacific for the US, it provides a credible threat and we've generally considered the Pacific part of our backyard in the US.
It's not great, but it also prevents someone like Vietnam from being gobbled up by China just because no one else has the logistics to move in time.
I like to scoff at isolationist nuts and China/Russia apologists and propagandists as much as anyone, but I get a cold tingle when I realize that, yeah, the U.S. really is working to encircle both of its major international frenemies with rings of bases. It's like a bunch of "WW III goes here" flags all over the map.
To be fair, Russia and China are doing most of the heavy lifting for us.
Oh, they suck to be sure. I'm just not super happy at the idea that everyone seems to be working toward an inevitable confrontation between global nuclear powers.
A big part of it is making it clear it will be a confrontation between global nuclear powers, so that none of the countries around Russia/China feel the need to become regional nuclear powers.
I like to scoff at isolationist nuts and China/Russia apologists and propagandists as much as anyone, but I get a cold tingle when I realize that, yeah, the U.S. really is working to encircle both of its major international frenemies with rings of bases. It's like a bunch of "WW III goes here" flags all over the map.
To be fair, Russia and China are doing most of the heavy lifting for us.
Oh, they suck to be sure. I'm just not super happy at the idea that everyone seems to be working toward an inevitable confrontation between global nuclear powers.
It's not really inevitable though. As Russia has shown twice now, where it gets messy is with the countries that aren't "choosing sides" so to speak. It's alot easier going once you've picked.
This is a more interesting one because it makes the possibility of a "nothing left to lose" move from the regime into a disaster anywhere in the world as opposed to the South Korean disaster it might have been otherwise.
Although if we don't see pre-emptive action against it, it'll be because intelligence says that their ICBM can't get off the ground.
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
This is a more interesting one because it makes the possibility of a "nothing left to lose" move from the regime into a disaster anywhere in the world as opposed to the South Korean disaster it might have been otherwise.
Although if we don't see pre-emptive action against it, it'll be because intelligence says that their ICBM can't get off the ground.
I feel like the world would be willing to sacrifice Seoul to prevent NK from getting a fully functional ICBM, as sad as that is to say. Because once NK can nuke say, San Francisco, they're going to be extracting ransom just to not blow up the world.
This is part of the gift China has given the US. Regaining the ability to use the Philippines for the first time since 1992 when the US was kicked out.
This is part of the gift China has given the US. Regaining the ability to use the Philippines for the first time since 1992 when the US was kicked out.
This is a more interesting one because it makes the possibility of a "nothing left to lose" move from the regime into a disaster anywhere in the world as opposed to the South Korean disaster it might have been otherwise.
Although if we don't see pre-emptive action against it, it'll be because intelligence says that their ICBM can't get off the ground.
I feel like the world would be willing to sacrifice Seoul to prevent NK from getting a fully functional ICBM, as sad as that is to say. Because once NK can nuke say, San Francisco, they're going to be extracting ransom just to not blow up the world.
We're obviously not, or we would have stopped their MRBM program because it can hit Tokyo and a bunch of other Asian population centers. Or their nuclear program, period.
Also, having a rocket that can go that far and having one that you can have confidence in hitting what you want are totally different things. And there's no evidence that they've been able to miniaturize their nuclear devices to fit on a missile yet.
This is a more interesting one because it makes the possibility of a "nothing left to lose" move from the regime into a disaster anywhere in the world as opposed to the South Korean disaster it might have been otherwise.
Although if we don't see pre-emptive action against it, it'll be because intelligence says that their ICBM can't get off the ground.
I feel like the world would be willing to sacrifice Seoul to prevent NK from getting a fully functional ICBM, as sad as that is to say. Because once NK can nuke say, San Francisco, they're going to be extracting ransom just to not blow up the world.
We're obviously not, or we would have stopped their MRBM program because it can hit Tokyo and a bunch of other Asian population centers. Or their nuclear program, period.
Also, having a rocket that can go that far and having one that you can have confidence in hitting what you want are totally different things. And there's no evidence that they've been able to miniaturize their nuclear devices to fit on a missile yet.
In regards to the bolded it does not matter if their missiles are super accurate as long as they don't land in the ocean. There is no difference for their purposes between nuking San Francisco and missing San Francisco and hitting Stockton instead.
Second major earthquake in this region this week. This one was a 6 on the Japanese scale of 7. That is massive. So far haven't seen destruction totals but since it is adding onto an already weekend region I expect the current death toll from the last one to go up.
Second major earthquake in this region this week. This one was a 6 on the Japanese scale of 7. That is massive. So far haven't seen destruction totals but since it is adding onto an already weekend region I expect the current death toll from the last one to go up.
Was watching the news tonight. There have been over 150 aftershocks since the first Kumamoto earthquake hit. 22 of them were at least a 4 (on the Japanese scale).
Second major earthquake in this region this week. This one was a 6 on the Japanese scale of 7. That is massive. So far haven't seen destruction totals but since it is adding onto an already weekend region I expect the current death toll from the last one to go up.
Was watching the news tonight. There have been over 150 aftershocks since the first Kumamoto earthquake hit. 22 of them were at least a 4 (on the Japanese scale).
For those that don't know Japan has its own scale to measure earthquakes.
It isn't a one to one with the normal scale. But a 4 on the Japanese scale can be like a 3-5 if I remember right? Something like that.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
That public safety flyer is both adorable and terrifying.
level 0 the kid is happy
level 2 the kid is intrigued
level 4 the kid is excited
level 6 the kid is crying
level 7 and the family is nowhere to be seen
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
Or the US.
Although the kid part involved a judge getting kick backs for sentencing so slightly different.
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
You mean the same South Korea that has a special visa set up to bring in sex slaves?
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
A little perspective on that era is important
In 1980 the government massacred pro-democracy protestors, and throughout much of the 70s and 80s the Korean central intelligence agency was largely a secret police for the ruling president. The 80s are the twilight of south korean dictatorship, and the korean government launched a big crackdown against anyone they perceived as enemies leading up to the 1988 olympics. For a country who had spent most of the 20th century in crippling poverty, only to recover and now host the olympics, it was something of an era-defining event. But then with the world's eyes on them when massive pro-democracy demonstrations broke out again the military was unwilling to break the protests through force as they had previously done, and democratic elections were instituted, and Korea is now a mostly stable democracy.
So that story, while certainly important, also kinda seems like a "Well, duh" to anyone familiar with Korea's history at the time. It's an era that SK has largely tried to... I wouldn't say cover up, but it's not something they really want to examine deeply. There's been a commission or two iirc but they'd largely prefer to avoid too many recriminations.
It kinda feels like the AP story is trying to phrase this as the kind of story that would scandalize a supposedly just, representative democracy, which is how we tend to think of Korea today, and assume it's always been that way since US ally and all and North Korea is the evil one, etc etc. But everybody in SK already knew that the government was just tossing people in jail on little justification in the '80s.
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
A little perspective on that era is important
In 1980 the government massacred pro-democracy protestors, and throughout much of the 70s and 80s the Korean central intelligence agency was largely a secret police for the ruling president. The 80s are the twilight of south korean dictatorship, and the korean government launched a big crackdown against anyone they perceived as enemies leading up to the 1988 olympics. For a country who had spent most of the 20th century in crippling poverty, only to recover and now host the olympics, it was something of an era-defining event. But then with the world's eyes on them when massive pro-democracy demonstrations broke out again the military was unwilling to break the protests through force as they had previously done, and democratic elections were instituted, and Korea is now a mostly stable democracy.
So that story, while certainly important, also kinda seems like a "Well, duh" to anyone familiar with Korea's history at the time. It's an era that SK has largely tried to... I wouldn't say cover up, but it's not something they really want to examine deeply. There's been a commission or two iirc but they'd largely prefer to avoid too many recriminations.
It kinda feels like the AP story is trying to phrase this as the kind of story that would scandalize a supposedly just, representative democracy, which is how we tend to think of Korea today, and assume it's always been that way since US ally and all and North Korea is the evil one, etc etc. But everybody in SK already knew that the government was just tossing people in jail on little justification in the '80s.
Well, I mean, I think this kind of news WOULD scandalize most people reading the AP (first hand or otherwise) since I would imagine very few people know the history of modern Korea. Hell, I know almost nothing about the history of Korea and was kinda shocked that they were within my lifetime a kinda brutal military dictatorship. Which I found out only a few years ago. I don't find it's something widely known.
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
A little perspective on that era is important
In 1980 the government massacred pro-democracy protestors, and throughout much of the 70s and 80s the Korean central intelligence agency was largely a secret police for the ruling president. The 80s are the twilight of south korean dictatorship, and the korean government launched a big crackdown against anyone they perceived as enemies leading up to the 1988 olympics. For a country who had spent most of the 20th century in crippling poverty, only to recover and now host the olympics, it was something of an era-defining event. But then with the world's eyes on them when massive pro-democracy demonstrations broke out again the military was unwilling to break the protests through force as they had previously done, and democratic elections were instituted, and Korea is now a mostly stable democracy.
So that story, while certainly important, also kinda seems like a "Well, duh" to anyone familiar with Korea's history at the time. It's an era that SK has largely tried to... I wouldn't say cover up, but it's not something they really want to examine deeply. There's been a commission or two iirc but they'd largely prefer to avoid too many recriminations.
It kinda feels like the AP story is trying to phrase this as the kind of story that would scandalize a supposedly just, representative democracy, which is how we tend to think of Korea today, and assume it's always been that way since US ally and all and North Korea is the evil one, etc etc. But everybody in SK already knew that the government was just tossing people in jail on little justification in the '80s.
Well, I mean, I think this kind of news WOULD scandalize most people reading the AP (first hand or otherwise) since I would imagine very few people know the history of modern Korea. Hell, I know almost nothing about the history of Korea and was kinda shocked that they were within my lifetime a kinda brutal military dictatorship. Which I found out only a few years ago. I don't find it's something widely known.
I kiiiinda feel like the AP is leaving that bit out on purpose, to make it sound more like a Big Scoop
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Captain Marcusnow arrives the hour of actionRegistered Userregular
Islamist separatists behead Canadian in Philippines after not receiving ransom money. Horrifying, but unfortunately common. Here's hoping that military rescue operation for the other hostages is successful.
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
You mean the same South Korea that has a special visa set up to bring in sex slaves?
"Entertainer" visas are par for the course in the far east. Also one of the easier ways to get into Japan if you're not a student or marrying a Japanese national.
In the ongoing series of diplomatic fuck yous between the U.S. and PRC, China revokes the port call for aircraft carrier John C. Stennis about a week before it was supposed to pull in.
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There's a rumor going around that Vietnam and the US are talking about providing the Americans naval basing rights in Vietnam.
http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/vietnam-unveils-new-port-facility-for-foreign-warships-in-cam-ranh-bay/
China already pushed Vietnam into the US camp. Right now it is more formalizing that relationship. But there has already been speak of cooperation at all levels.
I would say we might not go fully to bat for them but Vietnam right now is firmly in the anti-China pro-US side of things in Asia.
Actually very different circumstances. The Vietnamese government very much was not antagonistic to the US especially after the Chinese war in 1979. There was no single large voting block to push for isolation. Vietnam was never strictly Soviet backed compared to Cuba. Also our history is much less intertwined.
A good description of Vietnam's view of the war was confusion on why the US would attack them. The war forgiveness of actions has been taking place for years.
Cuba though has had leaders who built power off anti-US rhetoric. Has a history of colonization with the US. And is also a short jaunt from Florida making it a different interaction.
Edit: in terms of we didn't need to have a war.
To be fair, Russia and China are doing most of the heavy lifting for us.
- John Stuart Mill
Oh, they suck to be sure. I'm just not super happy at the idea that everyone seems to be working toward an inevitable confrontation between global nuclear powers.
Eh, part of it is to ensure there's risk for the larger countries if they move on a smaller neighbor to keep both sides honest. If there are multiple ways to project power into the pacific for the US, it provides a credible threat and we've generally considered the Pacific part of our backyard in the US.
It's not great, but it also prevents someone like Vietnam from being gobbled up by China just because no one else has the logistics to move in time.
A big part of it is making it clear it will be a confrontation between global nuclear powers, so that none of the countries around Russia/China feel the need to become regional nuclear powers.
It's not really inevitable though. As Russia has shown twice now, where it gets messy is with the countries that aren't "choosing sides" so to speak. It's alot easier going once you've picked.
Sigh.
This is a more interesting one because it makes the possibility of a "nothing left to lose" move from the regime into a disaster anywhere in the world as opposed to the South Korean disaster it might have been otherwise.
Although if we don't see pre-emptive action against it, it'll be because intelligence says that their ICBM can't get off the ground.
I feel like the world would be willing to sacrifice Seoul to prevent NK from getting a fully functional ICBM, as sad as that is to say. Because once NK can nuke say, San Francisco, they're going to be extracting ransom just to not blow up the world.
The ruling Party of South Korea just lost the Parliamentary elections.
Countdown to yelling about Japan in 3 2 1....
Also a Colonel in North Korea intelligence defected to South Korea.
A bunch of Taiwanese nationals were acquitted of defrauding a bunch of Chinese Mainland nationals in an over the phone fraud case in Kenya.
So the Kenyan authorities deported them and some associated suspects.
They deported them to Mainland China.
This is part of the gift China has given the US. Regaining the ability to use the Philippines for the first time since 1992 when the US was kicked out.
I hope its a gift that keeps on giving.
We're obviously not, or we would have stopped their MRBM program because it can hit Tokyo and a bunch of other Asian population centers. Or their nuclear program, period.
Also, having a rocket that can go that far and having one that you can have confidence in hitting what you want are totally different things. And there's no evidence that they've been able to miniaturize their nuclear devices to fit on a missile yet.
In regards to the bolded it does not matter if their missiles are super accurate as long as they don't land in the ocean. There is no difference for their purposes between nuking San Francisco and missing San Francisco and hitting Stockton instead.
Second major earthquake in this region this week. This one was a 6 on the Japanese scale of 7. That is massive. So far haven't seen destruction totals but since it is adding onto an already weekend region I expect the current death toll from the last one to go up.
Was watching the news tonight. There have been over 150 aftershocks since the first Kumamoto earthquake hit. 22 of them were at least a 4 (on the Japanese scale).
For those that don't know Japan has its own scale to measure earthquakes.
It isn't a one to one with the normal scale. But a 4 on the Japanese scale can be like a 3-5 if I remember right? Something like that.
That's not going to be unseen any time soon.
- John Stuart Mill
level 2 the kid is intrigued
level 4 the kid is excited
level 6 the kid is crying
level 7 and the family is nowhere to be seen
The stuff in here sounds more on par with what you'd expect from North Korea. Prisoners raped and beaten to death. Police rounding up homeless, and even kidnapping children to bring in for cash rewards and promotions.
Or the US.
Although the kid part involved a judge getting kick backs for sentencing so slightly different.
You mean the same South Korea that has a special visa set up to bring in sex slaves?
A little perspective on that era is important
In 1980 the government massacred pro-democracy protestors, and throughout much of the 70s and 80s the Korean central intelligence agency was largely a secret police for the ruling president. The 80s are the twilight of south korean dictatorship, and the korean government launched a big crackdown against anyone they perceived as enemies leading up to the 1988 olympics. For a country who had spent most of the 20th century in crippling poverty, only to recover and now host the olympics, it was something of an era-defining event. But then with the world's eyes on them when massive pro-democracy demonstrations broke out again the military was unwilling to break the protests through force as they had previously done, and democratic elections were instituted, and Korea is now a mostly stable democracy.
So that story, while certainly important, also kinda seems like a "Well, duh" to anyone familiar with Korea's history at the time. It's an era that SK has largely tried to... I wouldn't say cover up, but it's not something they really want to examine deeply. There's been a commission or two iirc but they'd largely prefer to avoid too many recriminations.
It kinda feels like the AP story is trying to phrase this as the kind of story that would scandalize a supposedly just, representative democracy, which is how we tend to think of Korea today, and assume it's always been that way since US ally and all and North Korea is the evil one, etc etc. But everybody in SK already knew that the government was just tossing people in jail on little justification in the '80s.
Well, I mean, I think this kind of news WOULD scandalize most people reading the AP (first hand or otherwise) since I would imagine very few people know the history of modern Korea. Hell, I know almost nothing about the history of Korea and was kinda shocked that they were within my lifetime a kinda brutal military dictatorship. Which I found out only a few years ago. I don't find it's something widely known.
I kiiiinda feel like the AP is leaving that bit out on purpose, to make it sound more like a Big Scoop
I say, Good luck with that.
"Entertainer" visas are par for the course in the far east. Also one of the easier ways to get into Japan if you're not a student or marrying a Japanese national.