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About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

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    MetalbourneMetalbourne Inside a cluster b personalityRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    I would suggest that the fact that teaching does not provide a living wage is a bigger problem than anything else mentioned in this kerfuffle.

    We're trying to starve the current regime out so we can put someone competent in charge of our educational system.

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    JackdawGinJackdawGin Engineer New YorkRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
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    AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Overloaded wrote: »
    Why do you think your anxiety/depression was unrelated to the demands of the job? Being on-call 24/7 is ridiculously stressful.

    He'd been doing the job a long time at that point, I'm pretty sure he can tell whether it was making him depressed or not. He'd also know by that juncture what "being on call 24/7" means. This isn't a medical role, he knows he isn't going to get a call at 3am to perform open heart surgery.

    Late, but it really depends on the client. If certain servers I manage go down at 3 AM, you bet your ass I'll be working as hard as a doctor to get them up and running before regular business hours. Nevermind shops that need 99.999% or higher uptime when that stuff happens.

    With regards to the work-life balance, and keep in mind this is only from my experiences:

    Programming and website development usually isn't something that pushes hard into personal time, except in crunch time and right before release. This is a bigger issue with video game development.

    System Administration most definitely can run into your personal time, and it's part of the business. Your job is to keep these things going, and these things don't keep the same hours you do. In a smaller environment with less people, it is all the harder to maintain a separation. Larger firms can cycle and cover better. If a larger firm is not giving you flexibility, then something is wrong.

    Help Desk support.. well, again, depends on the hours of the customer and how much they demand of you. I suspect that with how close PA is, this really is the lightest part of the job.



    When I was in love with my job, I'd wrap my entire self-being up in it. I was, and am, proud of what I do. The difference these days is that I don't see my workplace as my family anymore. As a result, I've disengaged and I'm less willing to sacrifice myself for it. If I had a job I adored? Yeah.. I'd push the insane hours too, and hopefully we'd be close enough as a family that it'd be compensated for.

    Quite frankly, it really does sound like a dream gig. Maybe an assistant would help, though.

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    LiiyaLiiya Registered User regular
    There are companies within all fields where the prestige of working at that company and the non-financial benefits (looks good on cv, new challenges, great office environment, caring staff/boss etc) are more a motivation than a financial one, where these benefits outweigh the financial benefits.

    Also, the world is made for two. It is hard to buy a home alone, to save alone and so on. The world is catered towards two people contributing towards to finances as opposed to one, so it is much harder to achieve on a single salary.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    JackdawGin wrote: »
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    Truly a deal from the devil.


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    courtneyjcourtneyj Newcastle, WARegistered User regular
    100k is a lot of money. A LOT. How fucking expensive is seattle?

    If you want a 1 bedroom apartment in Seattle it's about $1200/month. You can find stuff cheaper but it's highly competitive. It's so bad we have a new level of housing called apodments that rent for $600-$800 month that have shared building kitchens, only a small fridge/microwave/sink in unit, and are about 400sq feet with no parking.

    PA is in Redmond now though so it should be cheaper over there where there is nothing but apartments for miles.

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    CybitCybit Merch Underling RedmondRegistered User regular
    100k is a lot of money. A LOT. How fucking expensive is seattle?

    I think the last time I checked, it was about 40% more expensive than say, St Louis. I'd argue the true cost is 75%+, as a lot of things that are normally free in the midwest now cost money (parking, for instance).

    Rent is really the killer part here, if you can get good living arrangements, it keeps the cost down significantly. But when I looked for apartments in 2010, it was about 900-1k per month for a single bedroom apartment, nothing else included. I was looking in a safer area, but not nearly the most expensive areas either.

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    fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell #BLMRegistered User regular
    yeah, so, i've looked at the job posting and i've read the OP here.

    there's a couple of things that i note

    1) i don't see ANY specific wage discussed. why are people getting outraged?
    2) i DO see that Kenneth mentioned that his salary is a little under market.
    3) going to school for anything today is fucking expensive.
    4) going to school to be a teacher is looking at some hard economic decisions which may include a) lengthy student loan repayments, b) expensive tuition, for c) not much salary in return, at least in the short run.

    here's some background on what "market" means, at least in the U.S., for market wages:

    the United States Department of Labor works with local labor/employment agencies under state governments to survey average wage levels for specific careers and specific experience levels in specific geographic areas. these wages almost always get inflated. you can search for the data yourself here: http://flcdatacenter.com/

    according to the DoL's survey, a web dev with 3 years of experience in Seattle should be paid around $63,000 to $76,000 annually. again, these figures are usually inflated due to the way the DoL processes wage data and conducts its surveys.

    nevertheless, the range i just quoted is a decent baseline to ascertain just what is an "acceptable" wage range. the range is based on industry wide surveys done in the Seattle metro area, and the wages are updated annually by the DoL.

    now, let's look at the grad school cost side.

    i don't know what schools Kenneth is looking at, so i'm making a really really hastily educated guess and using these figures from Washington State University. looks like the average yearly budget requirement for a resident-of-Washington grad student is approx. $27,000.

    so let's say, optimistically, that as a web dev, i'm earning the higher figure of $76,000 annually. Federal income tax for a single filer at that salary level is 25%, so annually you're taking home $57,000. that means, on a $27,000 budget, there should be $30,000 left over for the year?

    except that would mean that the web dev is STILL WORKING while going to school.

    here's the part i think people are totally forgetting. Kenneth is going to have to save up enough to pay for tuition and eat food and live somewhere for at least two, maybe three years without working, or he'll have to work somewhere part time while going to school. if he's earning even at the higher end of a web dev salary, that's going to take some time to save if he's planning to go to school full-time without income coming in. if he's like most young Americans today, he probably has residual student loans from his undergrad, too. he's also got to be careful as he's not guaranteed a job even after he finishes school.

    in short, people are getting mad at PA for no good reason. no actual salary has been discussed, and from Kenneth's own words, he's living comfortably now. if anything, the insane cost of education in the U.S. and the idiocy of not paying teachers are the problems here.

    holy hell people, adjust your rage-o-meters.

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    SheriSheri Resident Fluffer My Living RoomRegistered User regular
    Liiya wrote: »
    There are companies within all fields where the prestige of working at that company and the non-financial benefits (looks good on cv, new challenges, great office environment, caring staff/boss etc) are more a motivation than a financial one, where these benefits outweigh the financial benefits.

    Literally why people work at Disney, yo

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    OverloadedOverloaded Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    I am a professional in this field, and I would apply for it if I were in a place in my life where I could move to Seattle. If I were, then I have various ideas (and in some case functional prototypes) of ways PA could expand some of it's brands and increase their value and presence on the web, and it would be rad to actually be ablt to talk to them about it and show them what I already built in my free time.

    Really, internet outrage is just exhausting. There were no specific figures dicussed, but because they were honest that people at this company tend to spend a lot of time at work and don't necessarily get paid top dollar they think they have the right to complain endlessly despite knowing no specifics.

    So just out of curiosity: How old are you? How long have you been in the field? Are you married? Do you have kids? Medical expenses? A mortgage? A car?

    Also I'll point out that you're interested in the job, but not willing to move for it. Would that change if they were offering, say, $200,000/year plus moving expenses?

    There are no figures mentioned, but we know that it doesn't pay enough to put away any kind of significant savings while living in the area. It's certainly possible that this is all just an elaborate ruse meant to weed out people who wouldn't want to work at PA for free, then pay them well anyway. But assuming that everyone is being honest, this post makes that seem a lot less likely.

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    beep boop

    Kwoaru on
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    UsagiUsagi Nah Registered User regular
    Jesus dude, just let it go

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    nukanuka What are circles? Registered User regular
    You need a least a bachelor's degree to be a teacher, plus if you're going to be teaching above elementary school age you're going to want a degree in something else like Spanish or Science or whatever. Average pay for a teacher off the top of my head is $53k.

    I know because I also want to be a teacher.

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    NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    being that i do this exact job(excluding the IT helpdesk part) for a ~$80 million revenue company...

    i'd be willing to take a pay cut to work with a company i actually cared about

    as it is i just make rich shareholders richer.

    which is fine. its a job.

    but i'd take some cuts to have a different atmosphere and work with people that aren't racist/homophobic/etc.


    also, there seems to be a big fight over the words "market value" of a position.

    Everyone's got their own ideas what the fuck that means

    pretty much everyone just reads "below market" as "minimum wage" for whatever fucking reason.

    dude says he lives comfortably, but isn't making bank....i think that's like 90% of anyone in any 'office' job ever?

    Nogs on
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    JackdawGinJackdawGin Engineer New YorkRegistered User regular
    courtneyj wrote: »
    100k is a lot of money. A LOT. How fucking expensive is seattle?

    If you want a 1 bedroom apartment in Seattle it's about $1200/month. You can find stuff cheaper but it's highly competitive. It's so bad we have a new level of housing called apodments that rent for $600-$800 month that have shared building kitchens, only a small fridge/microwave/sink in unit, and are about 400sq feet with no parking.

    PA is in Redmond now though so it should be cheaper over there where there is nothing but apartments for miles.

    As a New Yorker I cried reading these numbers.

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    NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered User regular
    @fightinfilipino knows whats up

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    rhylithrhylith Death Rabbits HoustonRegistered User regular
    Jasc and fightinfilipino summed it up pretty well.

    A lot of people just like to hate penny arcade right now and are looking for any excuse to do so.

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    NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered User regular
    Overloaded wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    I am a professional in this field, and I would apply for it if I were in a place in my life where I could move to Seattle. If I were, then I have various ideas (and in some case functional prototypes) of ways PA could expand some of it's brands and increase their value and presence on the web, and it would be rad to actually be ablt to talk to them about it and show them what I already built in my free time.

    Really, internet outrage is just exhausting. There were no specific figures dicussed, but because they were honest that people at this company tend to spend a lot of time at work and don't necessarily get paid top dollar they think they have the right to complain endlessly despite knowing no specifics.

    So just out of curiosity: How old are you? How long have you been in the field? Are you married? Do you have kids? Medical expenses? A mortgage? A car?

    Also I'll point out that you're interested in the job, but not willing to move for it. Would that change if they were offering, say, $200,000/year plus moving expenses?

    There are no figures mentioned, but we know that it doesn't pay enough to put away any kind of significant savings while living in the area. It's certainly possible that this is all just an elaborate ruse meant to weed out people who wouldn't want to work at PA for free, then pay them well anyway. But assuming that everyone is being honest, this post makes that seem a lot less likely.

    are you fucking kidding me? $200k? you officially dont know what the hell you are talking about. stop trolling

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    the list of things I would not do for 200k a year is incredibly short

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    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Sassori wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    So, not having any experience with the duties and skills called for in the job posting, but just as an observer, my impression of the reactions to this whole thing here and on the other forums discussing the topic are:

    1. People who are not IT/web professionals generally see nothing wrong with the job posting or are at least very willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

    2. People who are IE/web professionals (such as the denizens of the sysadmin/IT and programming threads on Moe's) have almost universally reacted to the job posting with something between derisive laughter and outrage.

    3. Among people who are not professionals in the field in question, the posting from the outgoing guy has improved impressions of the job posting.

    4. Among people who are professionals in this field, said posting has either had no effect on opinions or reinforced and worsened negative impressions.

    I've heard plenty of people that would be elligible to apply for the position say that it was a pretty reasonable posting.

    Given the time requirements, 24/7 oncall (so, do you just not get vacations?) and breadth of skills required, plus the stresses of being the only dev and responsible for everything, that negotiable salary needs to head pretty high to be worth it. Minimum 6 figures

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    GhostDanGhostDan Registered User regular
    JackdawGin wrote: »

    As a New Yorker I cried reading these numbers.

    Was just thinking the same thing as a Jersian. $1200/month in new york might rent you a box on the side of the road. :)

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    MetalbourneMetalbourne Inside a cluster b personalityRegistered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    the list of things I would not do for 200k a year is incredibly short

    You mean like, you get paid 200k a year for not doing them?

    In that case I would like to make 200k a year by not using my x ray vision.

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    courtneyjcourtneyj Newcastle, WARegistered User regular
    yeah, so, i've looked at the job posting and i've read the OP here.

    there's a couple of things that i note

    1) i don't see ANY specific wage discussed. why are people getting outraged?
    2) i DO see that Kenneth mentioned that his salary is a little under market.
    3) going to school for anything today is fucking expensive.
    4) going to school to be a teacher is looking at some hard economic decisions which may include a) lengthy student loan repayments, b) expensive tuition, for c) not much salary in return, at least in the short run.


    the United States Department of Labor works with local labor/employment agencies under state governments to survey average wage levels for specific careers and specific experience levels in specific geographic areas. these wages almost always get inflated. you can search for the data yourself here: http://flcdatacenter.com/

    according to the DoL's survey, a web dev with 3 years of experience in Seattle should be paid around $63,000 to $76,000 annually. again, these figures are usually inflated due to the way the DoL processes wage data and conducts its surveys.

    If you're making 76k as a web dev with 3 years of work experience in Seattle you're likely working for a small company that doesn't value IT.
    I test web applications in Seattle. I don't even really do a lot of automation or coding as part of my tests. I took a decent pay cut to be able to work from home. I would be making over 76,000 annually if I didn't, and my job is WAY less technical and necessary than a web dev.

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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    $200k is not uncommon for a system administrator with those skills living in the WA area.

    For someone that's also a developer and can put on other hats when needed? That's a steal.

    You fellas are undervalued if you think 75k is big dolla dolla bills, especially for this job. I'm also wondering if part of the problem is the types of skillsets being represented here.

    General office staff, accountants, nurses, artists, and HTML people don't really pull in that kind of scratch until like 15-20 years in the business. Even then, probably not 200k.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    LiiyaLiiya Registered User regular
    America, you crazy expensive!

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    the list of things I would not do for 200k a year is incredibly short

    You mean like, you get paid 200k a year for not doing them?

    In that case I would like to make 200k a year by not using my x ray vision.

    no like

    things that two hundred thousand dollars a year would not be enough to pay me to do

    but I'd also gladly work for a company willing to pay me to not to use my super powers

    Kwoaru on
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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    i think the value assessment that people are making on the desired skills of this job are way way way way overboard.

    they are looking for someone just one notch over Junior level as far as I can tell

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    stebuustebuu Crabs are fucking crazy, and I hate horses Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    the list of things I would not do for 200k a year is incredibly short

    A/S/L?

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    CorporateLogoCorporateLogo The toilet knows how I feelRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Whoops

    CorporateLogo on
    Do not have a cow, mortal.

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    UsagiUsagi Nah Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Sassori wrote: »
    Gaslight wrote: »
    So, not having any experience with the duties and skills called for in the job posting, but just as an observer, my impression of the reactions to this whole thing here and on the other forums discussing the topic are:

    1. People who are not IT/web professionals generally see nothing wrong with the job posting or are at least very willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

    2. People who are IE/web professionals (such as the denizens of the sysadmin/IT and programming threads on Moe's) have almost universally reacted to the job posting with something between derisive laughter and outrage.

    3. Among people who are not professionals in the field in question, the posting from the outgoing guy has improved impressions of the job posting.

    4. Among people who are professionals in this field, said posting has either had no effect on opinions or reinforced and worsened negative impressions.

    I've heard plenty of people that would be elligible to apply for the position say that it was a pretty reasonable posting.

    Given the time requirements, 24/7 oncall (so, do you just not get vacations?) and breadth of skills required, plus the stresses of being the only dev and responsible for everything, that negotiable salary needs to head pretty high to be worth it. Minimum 6 figures

    No

    No it doesn't

    It needs to be fair

    And "fair" is whatever the expectations of the company plus the individual being hired are, which is generally why you go through negotiations

    While I work in a different field the breadth and depth of expectations (including the on call thing) are remarkably similar in my own position and I make ~80% of industry average

    I do so because I choose to be here and the work environment, the management style, the familiar relationship I have with my coworkers, in addition to other (both monetary and non-monetary) benefits make it totally worth it

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    GhostDanGhostDan Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Nogs wrote: »
    are you fucking kidding me? $200k? you officially dont know what the hell you are talking about. stop trolling

    I make 6 figures for doing 2 of those functions. $200k might be a little overboard, but given the titles:

    Helpdesk
    Developer
    Sys Engineer/Sys Admin

    A systems engineer in Seattle alone goes for $90-100k. With being a developer and doing helpdesk stuff, expected to be on call 24/7/365 he should be looking at at least $130k, maybe closer to $150k. Also remember cost of living changes. That $150k position would probably go for under $100k in say North Carolina, because cost of living is so much lower there.

    GhostDan on
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    JayKaosJayKaos Registered User regular
    Yeah they're not looking for someone with decades of experience in each category, they're looking for someone with like three years total in the field who's worked on / somewhat capable of working on a variety of areas.

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    MetalbourneMetalbourne Inside a cluster b personalityRegistered User regular
    stebuu wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    the list of things I would not do for 200k a year is incredibly short

    A/S/L?

    Legal/whatever you want it to be/your house

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    GhostDanGhostDan Registered User regular
    GhostDan wrote: »

    Was just thinking the same thing as a Jersian. $1200/month in new york might rent you a box on the side of the road. :)

    I've been renting a one bedroom house for under 1000 in NJ for the past 5 years

    Then again I live in the middle of nowhere

    I'm in Morris County, I pay about $1300/month for a 1 bedroom in a older apartment complex. Going closer into the heart of the city I live in, with the newer apartment complexes I see $2k for a (nice) studio.

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    JackdawGinJackdawGin Engineer New YorkRegistered User regular
    GhostDan wrote: »
    JackdawGin wrote: »

    As a New Yorker I cried reading these numbers.

    Was just thinking the same thing as a Jersian. $1200/month in new york might rent you a box on the side of the road. :)

    $1200 / month will get you a studio in Brooklyn or Harlem, possibly a one bedroom if you're willing to move to Queens or the Bronx. The last Manhattan apartment I saw listed for $1200 a month was actually a ladder access loft with 4 ft clearance in someone else's apartment.

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    NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered User regular
    GhostDan wrote: »
    Nogs wrote: »
    are you fucking kidding me? $200k? you officially dont know what the hell you are talking about. stop trolling

    I make 6 figures for doing 2 of those functions. $200k might be a little overboard, but given the titles:

    Helpdesk
    Developer
    Sys Engineer/Sys Admin

    A systems engineer in Seattle alone goes for $90-100k. With being a developer and doing helpdesk stuff, expected to be on call 24/7/365 he should be looking at at least $130k, maybe closer to $150k. Also remember cost of living changes. That $150k position would probably go for under $100k in say North Carolina, because cost of living is so much lower there.

    yeah if you are a dedicated expert with years and years of experience in that one field.

    the guy leaving is 27 years old

    they are looking for a suitable jack-of-all-trades junior-ish replacement

    for a company that is not a billion dollar fortune 500 company

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    AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Could be worse.

    Could be a sysadmin/help desk professional making 30k a year... *cough*

    He/Him | "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." - Dr. Johnetta Cole, 7/22/2024
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    GhostDanGhostDan Registered User regular
    JayKaos wrote: »
    Yeah they're not looking for someone with decades of experience in each category, they're looking for someone with like three years total in the field who's worked on / somewhat capable of working on a variety of areas.

    So they are looking for a guy with limited experience to run a 1 person IT department? That will work out well.

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    AvrahamAvraham Registered User regular
    Kethenn wrote: »
    Because I've been learning as I go, I've had to constantly triage out tasks and rely heavily on outside help - Rackspace's Managed Cloud support is an incredible (albeit costly) resource, Icyliquid has saved my ass more times than I can count, and the support of the shadowy PAX Engineering team, made up of Enforcers who are also IT or development professionals that I informally manage, has also been a huge boon. It seems like a herculean task for just one person.

    I'm curious is this like using unpaid volunteer labor, or simply drawing on advice from a peer network?

    :bz: :bz: :bzz:
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    JayKaos wrote: »
    Yeah they're not looking for someone with decades of experience in each category, they're looking for someone with like three years total in the field who's worked on / somewhat capable of working on a variety of areas.

    Very alarming for a company that exists pretty much solely on it's web platform.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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