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About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

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    akestersonakesterson Registered User regular
    Hi there. I used to be the target demographic for this job (programmer who also runs servers and can manage local IT). Now I hire and care for employees who might be the target demographic for this job (I manage devops/automation/backend/frontend developers and systems engineers, and still perform those technical duties as well). Let me explain why all of my IT comrades are so angry about this.
    1. We all love penny arcade and what it (used to? still does?) stand for If we hated penny arcade, we wouldn't care. But most of us are fans of Mike and Jerry's work. Many of us have felt swells of pride when they stood up to companies like EA and others for abusive hiring and workplace practices; finally someone with a media mouthpiece was taking our side. And it was someone that made us laugh on a regular basis. We have come to support Child's Play and PAX, feeling a sort of comaraderie with these individuals. So please keep this in mind - all of the other points would be laughed off as "industry normal" if it wasn't for how invested we all are in Penny Arcade.
    2. Jobs like this devalue what we do by reducing Market Wage It's no secret that, if John pays his employeed $10, and Jane wants to hire someone for similar tasks, she needs to pay similar wages to what John pays; otherwise everyone will want to work for John, and not Jane. Conversely, John knows that he doesn't have to pay all that much more than Jane - he only has to pay just enough more to make it worthwhile for people to spend their talents in his employ, and not hers. This is what defines Market Wage - the average minimum required to reliably hire the person to do the job in question. And it is driven, primarily, by the people who do the work; we control our own wage (more or less) by saying (as a community) what rates we will and will not work for. Now the problem comes in when a company with a big name - say Google, or Microsoft, or EA - demands top tier talent for their positions, but doesn't pay them much. Then everyone else in the industry can start saying "Well, big name player X pays this, why should we pay more?". By poisoning the waters in the minds of both employers and employees, big names are capable of tilting the market wage in favor of the hiring company, rather than the talent on the market. And then when the talent themselves start saying "It's okay that I'm being paid below market value, because I really love the position", that validates the poisoning effect that the employer is having on the market wage, and further erodes the ability of the rest of us to get paid what we deserve.
    3. It perpetuates several stereotypes about tech workers and the tech industry Jobs like this perpetuate the stereotype that we are all workaholic zealots who work for peanuts because we so strongly believe in what we do. They also perpetuate the stereotype that tech people are all young and hip, and who want to work somewhere for a while, then get bored (aka "burnt out") and leave. While that is certainly true for some, there is an equally large demographic in tech that works to live, instead of living to work. Further, not all of us are 20-somethings with no larger aspirations than to roll out that website; some of us have hobbies, side projects, charitable causes, even (gasp!) families. Not all of us want to spend 24/7 glued to the NOC pager. Some of us, even while loving our work to death, have learned that you have to let that crap drop at the door.
    4. It uses star power to prey on those just entering our industry who don't yet know better This is obviously not something exclusive to PA, but jobs like this are relying on the fact that their brand is popular enough to bring in people who want absolutely nothing more in life than to be associated with it. This is especially true in gaming and gaming related fields. I once received a job offer that was easily 50% below market average from a company (rhymes with "Wizard"), just because of who they were, and they expected me to jump on it. Had I been younger and more naive, I might have. Many of the people in my position can look back on their own careers, and look at the people they are currently hiring, and realize that a lot of them are being taken advantage of simply because they don't know how much they're worth. This job in particular is a fantastic example. Penny Arcade is a creative company; but without technology, that creativity is hobbled and cannot effectively reach its demographic. Whoever fills this position will be literally enabling every dollar that penny arcade makes; every strip, every piece of merch sold, every ad viewed, every blog post that goes out from Mike or Jerry will be enabled by this person. And this person is supposed to come in at (what we can all imagine to be) 20-30% below their real value, and get worked to death doing it, just for the sake of saying they did it under the Penny Arcade banner? This is abusive behavior that is not tolerated by any talented employee experienced enough to realize what is being done to them. And no, saying "we all work hard" does not justify it - it just means that the owners cannot separate their own fanatical zeal for their baby, with the regular work/life schedules of the people whom they are now responsible for as employees.

    I think that pretty well covers why we're all so upset about this. Now, just so I can't be accused of coming here to rant, here's how everyone at Penny Arcade can make us all shut up, and market a job that is much more likely to attract the kind of high caliber talent that PA really needs here:
    • Honesty counts, but honesty doesn't make you look like less of a douchebag Being honest in the job advert is good, but having a job worth working at is much better than being honest. Experienced tech workers will see through BS like tracing paper, and young tech people will not understand what it is they're getting into - all they'll see is "ZOMG IMMA WORK FER PENNY ARCADEZ!!!!11!". You need to protect your company against the tendency of these kinds of young pour-myself-into-the-job people, who will burn out and leave you with a bunch of infrastructure and code nobody can maintain. The best way to protect your company from winding up in this spot - "Kenneth is leaving, now what?" - is to make that one person easier to replace (no offense), which starts at not making your job sound like a sweatshop.
    • Split this job up It looks like Kenneth is doing 3 jobs: systems engineer, software developer, and IT administrator. Given that he's been doing it for several years, he's probably a very good generalist at this point, so you're likely dealing with a person who is able to fill the jobs of 3 average to above average people. (This is by no means a slight - Kenneth should be commended, his kind of multi-talented hat-wearing skills are indeed rare. Believe me, I'm trying to hire these kinds of people, right now.) If I was hiring for this role in my part of the country (Atlanta), I would expect this person to go for no less than $100k, probably closer to $130k given the high visibility and high stress environment that they were bred in. In the Redmond/Seattle area, I would say probably closer to $175k. If we split that up across 3 separate job roles - a low/midlevel systems engineer, a low/midlevel web developer, and a low/midlevel IT administrator - you've probably got 3 positions at $60k, which would likely be easier to fill, and would be more fair to the kind of young/junior audience you're looking for. "But wait, that's not as cheap as just hiring another Kenneth at below market value!", I can hear the bean counters saying. Yes, that's true; it's slightly more expensive, and it's more headcount to manage. However, see the next point.
    • Act like you care about your employees' well being and the survivability of the company If you have just one person doing all of these things, then you don't have an employee, you don't have an infrastructure; you have a landmine. If your one guy gets hit by a bus, there goes all knowledge of your codebase and infrastructure, all your passwords, all your vendor contacts, all your project management information. If you split the role up across a few different people, then you not only make your employees' individual lives easier - everyone is responsible for less, and can spend more time focusing on doing their one job that much better - you make your company more durable and more able to survive major events. The departure of an employee, or the prolonged absence of one due to medical or psychiatric problems, becomes far more easy to deal with. Experienced tech workers, believe it or not, look at factors like this when they come to a company. What is the culture of the company? What happens when I get sick - do I still get called when things catch on fire in production, even when I'm lying in bed with typhoid, because I'm the one who Does It All? Not having the right answers to these questions will turn experienced people off of you very quickly.

    I hope that helps.

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    JackdawGinJackdawGin Engineer New YorkRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Here's the problem: those estimates are for someone who is just a sysadim or just a software dev. They are looking for both, plus more, in one person.

    No, they're asking for someone who can do elements of several jobs. If PA had a full time sysadmin, he would spend most of his time staring at the walls. It would therefore be stupid to hire a full time sysadmin.

    Then outsource it completely and just hire a web developer. It reads like they don't know exactly what they need but what they had was working so they are asking for what they had again, only when you write out what they have it just doesn't add up.

    Godspeed to whoever takes this job, it is going to crush them.

    I would suggest that since the job has only has two people filling it in 15 years that it does not "crush" people at any noticeable rate.

    No, but it may crush the bright eyed, bushy tailed twenty something who will actually get the job.

    the fact that Alphamonkey and Kenneth BOTH enjoyed their time working for PA really really undermines your assertion.

    Or proves that those bright eyes and bushy tailed youngsters were cruelly deceived and brainwashed. They don't even know how exploited they are! Not like the real IT people I've met who all have competitively high salaries.

    Clearly something nefarious is going on hear. Teach the controversy!

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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Rent wrote: »
    If the job requires four separate, qualified full-time positions, why not hire four separate, qualified full-time people to take it?

    Because it doesn't

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    AbracadanielAbracadaniel Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    I wear so many goddamn hats at work I look like a hatrack. Some positions need jacks of all trades, especially in a one-man shop.

    Hell, I outsource various projects periodically when they're outside my scope when necessary, same as PA seems to by leaning on Rackspace or their Engineer help.

    If it weren't for the web-dev side of things, I would apply.

    But I'd be more interested in the distribution/fulfillment side of things when it came to systems improvements since that's my background.

    Abracadaniel on
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    chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Here's the problem: those estimates are for someone who is just a sysadim or just a software dev. They are looking for both, plus more, in one person.

    No, they're asking for someone who can do elements of several jobs. If PA had a full time sysadmin, he would spend most of his time staring at the walls. It would therefore be stupid to hire a full time sysadmin.

    Then outsource it completely and just hire a web developer. It reads like they don't know exactly what they need but what they had was working so they are asking for what they had again, only when you write out what they have it just doesn't add up.

    Godspeed to whoever takes this job, it is going to crush them.

    I would suggest that since the job has only has two people filling it in 15 years that it does not "crush" people at any noticeable rate.

    No, but it may crush the bright eyed, bushy tailed twenty something who will actually get the job.

    the fact that Alphamonkey and Kenneth BOTH enjoyed their time working for PA really really undermines your assertion.

    PA has grown in their time there. The complexity of the organization and therefore the technical requirements of the job have grown as well. Kenneth was able to grow with it; more power to him. It appears that they are trying to find a person like Kenneth was, not what he became.

    Honestly, Kenneth's OP smacks of Stockholm Syndrome.

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    TasteticleTasteticle Registered User regular
    Sweet bippy this dang thread


    Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
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    GriswoldGriswold that's rough, buddyRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @Hunter I agree with you, not sure if you're taking my statement the wrong way. I was implying that at a small company, everyone is expected to wear multiple hats, and that you're sure as hell not outsourcing a job that is (say) ~10 hours a week to a full-time external web developer.

    There's just a lot of ridiculous assumptions in this thread that are downright frustrating to read, especially since (as @fightinfilipino said) said assumptions being made by people without any of the relevant information. About a job posting that was written by the people who *do* have that information.

    Then, there's people like @Rent whose favorite pastimes include coming to the PA forums to rail on everything Mike Krahulik has ever said, so of course it's going to be "hard [for him] to see this job posting as anything but an exploitation of the pa fanbase"

    People are adults, and if they're applying for this job, you have to imagine they're capable of determining on their own what is and is not fair compensation for the work. No one is forcing anyone to apply, or forcing any applicants to accept a job offer they feel is unfair.

    EDIT:
    Honestly, Kenneth's OP smacks of Stockholm Syndrome.
    Quite possibly the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on an internet forum, and I frequent Reddit

    Griswold on
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    I don't think any of the people who keep dropping Stockholm Syndrome into discussion have the slightest clue what Stockholm Syndrome is.

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    fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell #BLMRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Here's the problem: those estimates are for someone who is just a sysadim or just a software dev. They are looking for both, plus more, in one person.

    No, they're asking for someone who can do elements of several jobs. If PA had a full time sysadmin, he would spend most of his time staring at the walls. It would therefore be stupid to hire a full time sysadmin.

    Then outsource it completely and just hire a web developer. It reads like they don't know exactly what they need but what they had was working so they are asking for what they had again, only when you write out what they have it just doesn't add up.

    Godspeed to whoever takes this job, it is going to crush them.

    I would suggest that since the job has only has two people filling it in 15 years that it does not "crush" people at any noticeable rate.

    No, but it may crush the bright eyed, bushy tailed twenty something who will actually get the job.

    the fact that Alphamonkey and Kenneth BOTH enjoyed their time working for PA really really undermines your assertion.

    PA has grown in their time there. The complexity of the organization and therefore the technical requirements of the job have grown as well. Kenneth was able to grow with it; more power to him. It appears that they are trying to find a person like Kenneth was, not what he became.

    Honestly, Kenneth's OP smacks of Stockholm Syndrome.

    ...and somehow your position as John Q. Poster uniquely qualifies you to determine PA's business needs over, say, the Chief Ops guy of Penny-Arcade?

    you are flinging a lot of assertions without any actual evidence to back it up.

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    AbracadanielAbracadaniel Registered User regular
    Also I already applied to PA once and we see how that turned out
    :V

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    LuvTheMonkeyLuvTheMonkey High Sierra Serenade Registered User regular
    Also I already applied to PA once and we see how that turned out
    :V

    Yeah no shit, look at your fucking eyes man

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    fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell #BLMRegistered User regular
    akesterson wrote: »
    Hi there. I used to be the target demographic for this job (programmer who also runs servers and can manage local IT). Now I hire and care for employees who might be the target demographic for this job (I manage devops/automation/backend/frontend developers and systems engineers, and still perform those technical duties as well). Let me explain why all of my IT comrades are so angry about this.

    i just want to say, i appreciate this post.

    however, do you know 1) the actual salary figures PA is offering?, or 2) the actual business/computing/dev needs of PA?

    if you can't answer these two questions, or if you are making assumptions as to these two questions, i say the protest and anger is moot.

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    TasteticleTasteticle Registered User regular
    Tube how do you do it

    How do your brains not leak out of your ears on a regular basis


    Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
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    AbracadanielAbracadaniel Registered User regular
    Place is closed, boy ._.
    Can't you SEE O_O

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    BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    Liiya wrote: »
    America, you crazy expensive!

    Hey apartments out by me range from $300-$450 a month.

    These people are living in the most expensive cities around

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    HunterHunter Chemist with a heart of Au Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    I was hired as an R&D Chemist. It's my title. It's the job I like to do.

    However, I'm also a QA person, applications tester, safety team member, trial support team member, technical asset for customer complaints, new product/process gate keeper, and a technical lead for the use of our products in plastic films.

    Do you think I get paid for my title of R&D Chemist as well as an extra check for working in say QA or in customer support?

    I don't know much about chemistry, but those job requirements all seem related to your field.

    A system administrator isn't a programmer, those are two entirely different fields.

    It's like comparing a dentist with a surgeon.

    I hope it works out for them, though, because those are a lot of skills to have.

    The same way that a programmer and a sys admin seem the same to me.

    They're not.

    Even in the most basic sense, in a technical company that produces a raw material that is sold to someone who puts it in their formulation for whatever end product they're making, the difference between working with your product process vs whatever the end use application is enormous.

    For example, I need to know all the ins and out of how we get from giant talc formation in a square state out west to a usable powder that can be sold as a filler. I also need to know how to test it, what to look for, and what to do if there are issues. On top of that, I also need to understand how to add powder to a formulation of plastic resins, slip aids, and whatever crazy shit they want to use and then make usable final products using our raw material.

    15 to 20 years ago, there would have been a process guy and an applications guy. Between utilizing the concepts in lean, coupled with the economic downturn those days are long gone. Now I'm the guy, as well as another 3 or 4 hats.

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    A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    Also I already applied to PA once and we see how that turned out
    :V

    Yeah no shit, look at your fucking eyes man

    Stockholm eyes

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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Tube wrote: »
    I don't think any of the people who keep dropping Stockholm Syndrome into discussion have the slightest clue what Stockholm Syndrome is.

    As a person living in Stockholm,

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    AbracadanielAbracadaniel Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Also I already applied to PA once and we see how that turned out
    :V

    Yeah no shit, look at your fucking eyes man

    Stockholm eyes

    pwzEyVQ.png

    Hunter came and visited me at work!

    Abracadaniel on
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    EndEnd Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    I don't think any of the people who keep dropping Stockholm Syndrome into discussion have the slightest clue what Stockholm Syndrome is.

    As a person living in Stockholm,

    you call it something else?

    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tube how do you do it

    How do your brains not leak out of your ears on a regular basis

    Thankfully they're kept in by severe waxy buildup. It's one of the side-effects of Stockholm Syndrome.

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    GriswoldGriswold that's rough, buddyRegistered User regular
    End wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    I don't think any of the people who keep dropping Stockholm Syndrome into discussion have the slightest clue what Stockholm Syndrome is.

    As a person living in Stockholm,

    you call it something else?

    "here syndrome"

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    rhylithrhylith Death Rabbits HoustonRegistered User regular
    God I wanna actually quote parts of that wall of text but ugh it's just too much work to format a post like that and I gotta leave to catch a plane soon.

    I'll just say a couple things here then.

    In point #2, you compare Penny Arcade to multi-billion dollar companies like Google, Microsoft, and EA. They are a company with under 20 employees.

    On the point that it requires 4 separate full time positions, both the previous holder of the job and Tube, another PA employee, are here telling you that no, it does not require that. In fact, it would not be enough work for two people, it's just too much for one person to do in 40 hours fairly often.

    On the point of salary expectations, Fightinfilipino has posted BLS statistics many times here that show that your numbers are 1.5-3 times the average for a person with 3 years experience in the Seattle area. Also, the previous holder of the job says in his own post that he is paid comfortably, and Khoo has not said what they will pay, just that the salary is negotiable and not to expect top-level pay.

    A lot of the people here are acting like PA, because of its popularity, is some sort of massive corporation. It does big things, but it is not a big company.

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    LiiyaLiiya Registered User regular
    Bucketman wrote: »
    Liiya wrote: »
    America, you crazy expensive!

    Hey apartments out by me range from $300-$450 a month.

    These people are living in the most expensive cities around

    Thats more like it!

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    AbracadanielAbracadaniel Registered User regular
    yo all you armchair hiring managers

    whip me up a clean version of Seth's face from that photo

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    ElbasunuElbasunu Registered User regular
    Hunter wrote: »
    JackdawGin wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Avraham wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    GhostDan wrote: »
    JayKaos wrote: »
    Yeah they're not looking for someone with decades of experience in each category, they're looking for someone with like three years total in the field who's worked on / somewhat capable of working on a variety of areas.

    So they are looking for a guy with limited experience to run a 1 person IT department? That will work out well.

    So far, it seems to work

    I don't see what's the problem
    Except it doesn't quite work.
    I popped a lung and spent a week in the hospital, right before a scheduled launch. They pushed out the launch, came and visited me in the hospital, brought me delicious Asian snacks and lent me a Vita to help pass the time. Last December, I was dealing with a lot of unrelated anxiety and depression issues. It screwed over the project I was working on at the time...
    I'm armchair quarterbacking, but if you have two guys wearing two hats instead of one guy wearing four, maybe they have some downtime to waste an hour on reddit each day, but also projects won't come to a halt when one guy is sick.

    If Mike falls over and breaks his arm, we're up shit creek. Clearly we need to hire two additional artists, just in case. Sure, most of the time we won't need them, but what if?

    The the NY Jets strategy? Except instead of 7 quarterbacks we have 7 artists? Brilliant.

    If PA was utilizing the NY Jets strategy, Mike would have ran up Khoo's butt and fumbled his digital drawing tablet.

    If PA was utilizing NY Jets strategy they would work in NJ and I would apply.

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    GriswoldGriswold that's rough, buddyRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tube how do you do it

    How do your brains not leak out of your ears on a regular basis

    Thankfully they're kept in by severe waxy buildup. It's one of the side-effects of Stockholm Syndrome.

    That's not wax.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnDjpUiKBmA

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    akestersonakesterson Registered User regular
    however, do you know 1) the actual salary figures PA is offering?, or 2) the actual business/computing/dev needs of PA?

    It's a fair point. Nobody (obviously) has pointed out the salary figures that PA is offering. But we can make some educated guesses by looking at glassdoor for comparable salaries, then drop 20-30% off of it. If the drop wasn't this big, then there would be no reason for Robert to have mentioned it in the job posting. Unless you're popping the -10% barrier, there's not really any point in bringing this up. (Much like you don't put something like "extremely competitive pay rates" in your job advert unless you're popping +10%.) So yeah, it's fair, we're all estimating. I feel pretty confident in my estimates, however.

    As far as the business/computing/dev needs of PA, yeah, I think we all know them by now - between the job advert, and Kenneth's post, they may as well be on file with the library of congress. :-)

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    rhylithrhylith Death Rabbits HoustonRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tube how do you do it

    How do your brains not leak out of your ears on a regular basis

    Thankfully they're kept in by severe waxy buildup. It's one of the side-effects of Stockholm Syndrome.

    Tube I am dying. You killed me.

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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Liiya wrote: »
    Bucketman wrote: »
    Liiya wrote: »
    America, you crazy expensive!

    Hey apartments out by me range from $300-$450 a month.

    These people are living in the most expensive cities around

    Thats more like it!

    It's worth pointing out that you live in one of the cheapest parts of the country. I could buy a house in Buxton for a little over the deposit I would pay for a house in London. $450 a month is nutty cheap.

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    RalgRalg Registered User regular
    Kethenn wrote: »
    There is this notion that work/life balance is some kind of sacred goal. I’m sorry, but it’s ludicrous. That’s like saying everyone would be fulfilled by getting married and having 2.5 kids. If you want to work 40 hours and never think about your job after 5pm, great! Find something that does that for you. If you want to work 80 or more hours at something you truly enjoy, in fact you don’t want to stop working ever because you love it so much, shouldn’t that be okay too? Shouldn’t we be so lucky as to have a job that we are so invested in?

    Absolutely not. You do not live in a vacuum. Labor laws exist for a reason.

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    AbracadanielAbracadaniel Registered User regular
    rhylith wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tube how do you do it

    How do your brains not leak out of your ears on a regular basis

    Thankfully they're kept in by severe waxy buildup. It's one of the side-effects of Stockholm Syndrome.

    Tube I am dying. You killed me.

    Another side effect

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    Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    People just look for reasons to hate PA now

    p0a2ody6sqnt.jpg
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    Fire TruckFire Truck I love my SELFRegistered User regular
    This thread is incredibly depressing for someone who works their ass off but never happened to be interested in computers.

    I have never made more than 20k a year, that's with a college degree and work in the field I studied.

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    akestersonakesterson Registered User regular
    rhylith wrote: »
    In point #2, you compare Penny Arcade to multi-billion dollar companies like Google, Microsoft, and EA. They are a company with under 20 employees.

    They don't have Microsoft and Google's money, but in the tech sector, they have almost as much mindshare.
    On the point of salary expectations, Fightinfilipino has posted BLS statistics many times here that show that your numbers are 1.5-3 times the average for a person with 3 years experience in the Seattle area.

    BLS can kick rocks, I hold the purse strings on these kinds of positions and have to deal with the day in/day out realities of paying for these people. BLS stats are incorrect.

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    JayKaosJayKaos Registered User regular
    akesterson wrote: »
    however, do you know 1) the actual salary figures PA is offering?, or 2) the actual business/computing/dev needs of PA?

    It's a fair point. Nobody (obviously) has pointed out the salary figures that PA is offering. But we can make some educated guesses by looking at glassdoor for comparable salaries, then drop 20-30% off of it. If the drop wasn't this big, then there would be no reason for Robert to have mentioned it in the job posting. Unless you're popping the -10% barrier, there's not really any point in bringing this up. (Much like you don't put something like "extremely competitive pay rates" in your job advert unless you're popping +10%.) So yeah, it's fair, we're all estimating. I feel pretty confident in my estimates, however.

    As far as the business/computing/dev needs of PA, yeah, I think we all know them by now - between the job advert, and Kenneth's post, they may as well be on file with the library of congress. :-)

    I think they put that in so people weren't expecting to be making shittons of money (since as we can see from this thread, people seem to assume PA is a far bigger company than it is), and to make it clear that it's a relatively junior-level salary, not to imply that you'd be making way the fuck less than anyone else in your field.

    Steam | SW-0844-0908-6004 and my Switch code
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    LiiyaLiiya Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Liiya wrote: »
    Bucketman wrote: »
    Liiya wrote: »
    America, you crazy expensive!

    Hey apartments out by me range from $300-$450 a month.

    These people are living in the most expensive cities around

    Thats more like it!

    It's worth pointing out that you live in one of the cheapest parts of the country. I could buy a house in Buxton for a little over the deposit I would pay for a house in London. $450 a month is nutty cheap.

    Oh god, yeah. And at the moment I share with three others in a really rough area. If I rented in Manchester City Centre, a decent apartment, I'd be looking at £1500 minimum. I imagine for London it'd be two, three times that!

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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Liiya wrote: »
    Oh god, yeah. And at the moment I share with three others in a really rough area. If I rented in Manchester City Centre, a decent apartment, I'd be looking at £1500 minimum. I imagine for London it'd be two, three times that!

    I'm thinking of buying a place up north because I would need a tiny mortgage and could essentially live like a king. Then again, I'd have to live in some awful squalid northern shithole like...

    OINTBUXTON.ashx?mw=440

    ...never mind.

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    HunterHunter Chemist with a heart of Au Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    I don't think any of the people who keep dropping Stockholm Syndrome into discussion have the slightest clue what Stockholm Syndrome is.

    As a person living in Stockholm,

    As president of my high school's Stockholm club...

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    akestersonakesterson Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    JayKaos wrote: »
    I think they put that in so people weren't expecting to be making shittons of money (since as we can see from this thread, people seem to assume PA is a far bigger company than it is), and to make it clear that it's a relatively junior-level salary, not to imply that you'd be making way the fuck less than anyone else in your field.

    Fair argument. However, the correct way to convey this is to label the position as "Junior", and to list the salary as "market" or just leave it out. (However this also touches on the incorrect idea that this is somehow a junior position; it's not. You would need a very good experienced generalist to juggle this, or several low/midlevel folks.)

    akesterson on
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