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Nelson Mandela, deceased.

KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
edited December 2013 in Debate and/or Discourse
It appears that as of the last 30 minutes or so it has been confirmed that Mandela has died, age 95. He has suffered a long illness, well publicised and it was widely thought that he was close to death. So, this should come as no surprise.

It really is hard to know where to start when describing Mandela, or indeed anyone who has lived as long as he did and seen through so many changes. The man he became, he grew into, but he was a man before that, who lived a life, an ordinary yet extraordinary life.

He grew up in a position of relative privilege, as much as a child born to high status Xhosa in their traditional lands, in what was the Cape Province, then the Transkei, then again the Cape, now Eastern Cape, as the nation evolved. Quite what it meant to be born to that kind of family in a traditional African family in South Africa, in 1918 is anyone's guess, but he was destined for high office all the same. South Africa being a nation of four provinces at the time, the Cape being perhaps the best place to be African, albeit that being a qualified win. He was able to be schooled and then attend Fort Hare, one of the few higher education institutions designed for non White students. From there, he eventually, in effect, ran off to the big city, Johannesburg, where he built a new life as a lawyer, during WW2.

Whilst in the big city, he became radicalised through his studies to law and became involved in youth politics and the ANC. This being the era of the rise of Grand Apartheid, things became pretty real, pretty fast, as petty repression and a colour bar became so much more with the election of the National Party in 1948. What had been a hard struggle for rights and recognition became a vicious and nasty struggle as the Union of South Africa gradually evolved into a police state. As events unfolded, Black, Coloured, Indian and White opposition gradually radicalised and progressively adopted violent actions to oppose the Apartheid Regime.

Mandela, by now a lawyer, spent the 1950s working through the ANC as various Apartheid legislation was passed, progressively containing and disenfranchising non White South Africans. By the end of the 1950s, armed struggle kicked off and many in the youth wings of the ANC organised to form a guerilla movement, the Spear of the Nation, with Mandela quickly becoming the leading light. The Spear of the Nation conducted a terror campaign, whilst being trained and armed by the newly Independent African states and the Eastern Bloc nations, which led to a close relationship between Mandela, the ANC and various left wing movements across the world. An association which both helped and undermined the ANC and Mandela prior to the fall of Apartheid.

In 1962 Mandela and his associates were captured at their headquarters, Rivonia and sent to trial in 1963. The trial became one of the most famous trials of the 20th century, as the issue of decolonisation was coming to the fore across the world, in the NICs and the West. The defendants, Mandela included, were largely articulate and well represented and the trial well publicised across the world, spoken about in the UN and other venues. However, Mandela and Co were imprisoned and spent the next several decades in prison, becoming the face of Apartheid and a living martyr to the struggle for freedom.

By the early 1980s the Apartheid regime was clearly struggling and this was clear to all, even the most blinkered of supporters. Whether or not it would end or not was of course less clear. There were discussions and offers for him to make deals but he stuck to his guns (there is of course a lot more to the story) and gradually the pressure built up, as the Cold War collapsed, the Eastern Bloc fell. In 1990 he was released and he triumphantly toured the world, before continuing negotiations as to the next step, which turned out to be multi racial democratic elections in 1994 and his election to the presidency.

Now, his achievements are many, but quite what bits are due to him, or to his advisors and fellow activists is not for this post, but he did provide leadership of a kind that the country needed. The goodwill of many was needed to achieve a peaceful transition, but a calm and uniting leader certainly didn't hurt.

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More to come

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520

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Address to the nation by President Jacob Zuma on the departure of former President Nelson Mandela


5 December 2013

My Fellow South Africans,

Our beloved Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, the founding President of our democratic nation has departed.

He passed on peacefully in the company of his family around 20h50 on the 5th of December 2013.

He is now resting. He is now at peace.

Our nation has lost its greatest son. Our people have lost a father.

Although we knew that this day would come, nothing can diminish our sense of a profound and enduring loss.

His tireless struggle for freedom earned him the respect of the world.

His humility, his compassion, and his humanity earned him their love. Our thoughts and prayers are with the Mandela family. To them we owe a debt of gratitude.

They have sacrificed much and endured much so that our people could be free.

Our thoughts are with his wife Mrs Graca Machel, his former wife Ms Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, with his children, his grand-children, his great grand-children and the entire family.

Our thoughts are with his friends, comrades and colleagues who fought alongside Madiba over the course of a lifetime of struggle.

Our thoughts are with the South African people who today mourn the loss of the one person who, more than any other, came to embody their sense of a common nationhood.

Our thoughts are with the millions of people across the world who embraced Madiba as their own, and who saw his cause as their cause.

This is the moment of our deepest sorrow.

Our nation has lost its greatest son.

Yet, what made Nelson Mandela great was precisely what made him human. We saw in him what we seek in ourselves.

And in him we saw so much of ourselves.

Fellow South Africans,

Nelson Mandela brought us together, and it is together that we will bid him farewell.

Our beloved Madiba will be accorded a State Funeral.

I have ordered that all flags of the Republic of South Africa be lowered to half-mast from tomorrow, 6 December, and to remain at half-mast until after the funeral.

As we gather to pay our last respects, let us conduct ourselves with the dignity and respect that Madiba personified.

Let us be mindful of his wishes and the wishes of his family.

As we gather, wherever we are in the country and wherever we are in the world, let us recall the values for which Madiba fought.


Let us reaffirm his vision of a society in which none is exploited, oppressed or dispossessed by another.

Let us commit ourselves to strive together – sparing neither strength nor courage – to build a united, non-racial, non-sexist, democratic and prosperous South Africa.

Let us express, each in our own way, the deep gratitude we feel for a life spent in service of the people of this country and in the cause of humanity.

This is indeed the moment of our deepest sorrow.

Yet it must also be the moment of our greatest determination.

A determination to live as Madiba has lived, to strive as Madiba has strived and to not rest until we have realised his vision of a truly united South Africa, a peaceful and prosperous Africa, and a better world.

We will always love you Madiba!

May your soul rest in peace.

God Bless Africa.

Nkosi Sikelel’ iAfrika.

Website: www.thepresidency.gov.za

Freedom for the Northern Isles!
Kalkino on
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«1

Posts

  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2013
    :( Sad news. Rest in peace.

    Honk on
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    We need to jazz this thread up with his accomplishments. I remember learning about Mandela in gradeschool, just as everything was happening even (right after he got out of prison). It was current events but also historic. Also fuck apartheid.

    Rest in peace Mandela.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    KalkinoHonkGiggles_FunsworthSkeith
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    We need to jazz this thread up with his accomplishments. I remember learning about Mandela in gradeschool, just as everything was happening even (right after he got out of prison). It was current events but also historic. Also fuck apartheid.

    Rest in peace Mandela.

    Post your thoughts in the thread and I might add it to the OP.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    I remember explaining who he was to @Sonork in Teamspeak not that long ago when it was first publicized that he was dealing with respiratory issues stemming from his many years as a political prisoner. It was at that time that I reflected on his life and what I'd learned about him in school and how much of an impact, in South Africa and beyond, that he really had. It's kind of crazy how far his message of peace and understanding, so simple and surrounded with adversity and uncertainty at the start, really went and how many people around the world it touched and resonated with.

    His life and actions act as a shining beacon of what true reconciliation between races and social classes can look like, and provides an example of what's possible to the rest of the world. His legacy in South Africa is made all the more luminous because of that universal quality.

    And to echo Henroid, yes, fuck apartheid.

    488W936.png
    HonkKalkinoZilla360
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    The important thing to remember, for all his later status, he was still a controversial figure up till he was released. A lot of people in the West, on the Right usually, were vocally anti Mandela / ANC, often for the usual Anti Communist/mad reasons. There certainly are a few Conservatives still kicking about in the UK today who were members of groups who were on record as opposing sanctions and Mandela (There is a famous "Hang Mandela" tshirt that these jerks wore).

    Other leaders of the ANC could have, or perhaps had a better right to lead, given they were not in prison for decades, that they kept the struggle alive in the country and in the exiled communities.

    image.jpg

    Here is a photo about that movie, Invictus, where a rugby team poisoned another and then won the final (I kid, but that is what we New Zealanders believe)

    invictus-1024.jpg

    Rugby and Apartheid are indelibly linked to any New Zealander. For all that we, like many other countries, debated and protested (or supported) Apartheid, the connection was particularly strong. Rugby Union being the primary sport of NZ and White South Africa, an issue which increasingly caused international strife and domestic protest. NZ's biggest civil unrest in the last 30-40 years was over the Springbok Tour in 1981, which split the country down the middle, to the extent that the Army had to be called out to keep order in places. Mandela's love of rugby upon release was therefore reassuring, yet mildly surprising!

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    We need to jazz this thread up with his accomplishments. I remember learning about Mandela in gradeschool, just as everything was happening even (right after he got out of prison). It was current events but also historic. Also fuck apartheid.

    Rest in peace Mandela.

    Mandela's greatest accomplishment, in my opinion, was establishing a period of peaceful political transitions in South Africa when he could very well have simply turned on his former imprisoners and had whatever level of retribution he desired.

    His greatest fault was undoubtedly neglecting the AIDS crisis until he left office (a mistake he spent his last years trying to make-up for).

    With Love and Courage
    Siska
  • SiskaSiska Shorty Registered User regular
    He was probably the first foreign political leader I became aware of. I remember there being some anti-apartheid signs/decals when I was little and my mom would push me around in a stroller on 1st of May demonstrations. The anti-apartheid movement was pretty huge in Sweden during the 80ies (and probably before then too). So a huge part shaping my political awareness, growing up.

    Izuela.png
  • marz_1982marz_1982 Registered User regular
    As a South African living abroad, I was quite saddened by the news, but I'm glad that he's no longer suffering. He has been fighting for his life for a few months now, his life the past month or so was probably close to vegetative. He couldn't talk for all the tubes down his throat at the end, but according to his family was teaching them right to the end.
    “Tata is still with us. Very strong, as I said very courageous, even in (sic)... lack of a better word, on his death bed, I think he is still teaching us lessons. Lessons in patience, lessons in love, lessons in tolerance,” said Makaziwe Mandela.

    IOL - urgent meeting at mandela home

    But let's celebrate his life rather than his last, difficult year. Rest in peace, Madiba.

    Also, I can't believe how fucked up Apartheid was.... Just... sad that my family was a small part of it just by *not* speaking out against it. They did their bit by putting in their votes for Mandela in 1994 though, I think (well at least my parents did, can't say much for some extended family...) It's amazing when you think that within 4 years, Mandela was released from prison, non-whites went from total separation to being able to vote, and the first SA black president was elected. Amazing how quickly everything turned around.

    Kalkino
  • marz_1982marz_1982 Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    We need to jazz this thread up with his accomplishments. I remember learning about Mandela in gradeschool, just as everything was happening even (right after he got out of prison). It was current events but also historic. Also fuck apartheid.

    Rest in peace Mandela.

    Mandela's greatest accomplishment, in my opinion, was establishing a period of peaceful political transitions in South Africa when he could very well have simply turned on his former imprisoners and had whatever level of retribution he desired.

    His greatest fault was undoubtedly neglecting the AIDS crisis until he left office (a mistake he spent his last years trying to make-up for).

    Well... at least he didn't propagate further mis-information about HIV/AIDS during his term, as far as I know. Mr Thabo Mbeki "HIV doesn't exist/Vitamin C for a cure" or Mr Jacob Zuma "Take a shower" were far worse offenders. The government is now desperately trying to avert a major tragedy in that regard; while the number of new infections are decreasing and medicine is more available, the impact of TB and HIV/AIDS on the population has been devastating.
    In 2008, University of Cape Town researcher Nicoli Nattrass, and later that year a group of Harvard scientists led by Zimbabwean physician Pride Chigwedere each independently estimated that Thabo Mbeki's denialist policies led to the early deaths of more than 330,000 South Africans. Barbara Hogan, the health minister appointed by Mbeki's successor, voiced shame over the studies' findings and stated: "The era of denialism is over completely in South Africa. HIV/AIDS denialism

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    I think it's telling that he was as old as he was and I'm still really upset about this news.

    He was a great man.

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    青!
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Well, this is the most powerful film I've seen on Apartheid. A decade on and I still get flashbacks. Not awful, just so intensely sad, so surprising to hear the confessions. To know their stories are the story of man's utter shitness throughout history is even worse

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0236447/

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    Just...just...shit.

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    I am old enough to remember apartheid and the debate on sanctions very well. What amazed me about Mandela was his lack of hate, and his work towards a peaceful end to apartheid. I remember that apartheid ending peacefully seemed about as likely as... the Berlin Wall falling.

    But, to be honest, when someone 95 years old and very unwell dies, I don't actually feel sad. He was a great man, and he goes to his well-deserved rest.

    I figure I could take a bear.
    BobCescaMrVyngaardshryke
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Truly the death of a great man. A man like George Washington, in that he knew for democracy in South African it had to outlive him. His stepping down, when he was popular enough that he could have changed the constitution and stayed in office indefinitely, was the mark of a great leader.

    A man who knew the meaning of leadership.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
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  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    Damn. Rest in peace. Amazing he lived as long as he did, with his years in prison. I'm pretty choked up seeing that picture in the OP of him in boxing gear - always amazing to see great people in normal, candid, and young moments like that.

    "Will you keep working on it?" asked Man.

    The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."

    Man said, "We shall wait."
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    A very powerful point about Mandela:
    If at any point over the coming days, weeks, and months to come, you find yourself confused as to how to navigate the thicket of pictures of Nelson Mandela coming at you in every country in the world, bear in mind this salient fact of history: it was once illegal in South Africa to have a picture of Nelson Mandela in your home.

    Look at your Twitter feed, your blog feed, your television channels, your radio, and the front page of every newspaper and magazine tomorrow and remember: it was once illegal to have a picture of Nelson Mandela in your home.

    Narrative landscapes can be messy, and they vary from country to country, but there was a time when having a picture of Nelson Mandela in your home was against the law.

    We watch too much TV, but there is Mandela on your TV in your home, and there is the old archive footage of him walking hand-in-hand with Winnie Mandela, and there was once a time when he would have had no right to be there, but there he is, there — smiling, present, patient, and sharp and emphatic in his rhetoric and delivery.

    There is no such thing as too much media saturation when it comes to Nelson Mandela’s life and Nelson Mandela’s memory, because there was once a time when his image didn’t exist, was illegal. As the moments pass after his death, we see a raised fist — Mandela's fist — finding the screen and breaking through. Ngiyabonga.

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  • marz_1982marz_1982 Registered User regular
    A very powerful point about Mandela:
    If at any point over the coming days, weeks, and months to come, you find yourself confused as to how to navigate the thicket of pictures of Nelson Mandela coming at you in every country in the world, bear in mind this salient fact of history: it was once illegal in South Africa to have a picture of Nelson Mandela in your home.

    Look at your Twitter feed, your blog feed, your television channels, your radio, and the front page of every newspaper and magazine tomorrow and remember: it was once illegal to have a picture of Nelson Mandela in your home.

    Narrative landscapes can be messy, and they vary from country to country, but there was a time when having a picture of Nelson Mandela in your home was against the law.

    We watch too much TV, but there is Mandela on your TV in your home, and there is the old archive footage of him walking hand-in-hand with Winnie Mandela, and there was once a time when he would have had no right to be there, but there he is, there — smiling, present, patient, and sharp and emphatic in his rhetoric and delivery.

    There is no such thing as too much media saturation when it comes to Nelson Mandela’s life and Nelson Mandela’s memory, because there was once a time when his image didn’t exist, was illegal. As the moments pass after his death, we see a raised fist — Mandela's fist — finding the screen and breaking through. Ngiyabonga.

    Awesome... thanks for that link. News from my brother in law who just visited South Africa last week, was that everyone seemed to be "fiercely patriotic", and everywhere he went he got great, friendly service. I'm guessing that the fierce patriotism will briefly increase as everyone rallies around sharing the grief over Mandela's passing.

  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    He was a good man, beloved by the good and hated by the truly evil.

    CantidoMrVyngaardJeep-Eep
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    Here is his address during the Freedom/Rivonia Trials again last night. Spooky but amazing
    http://www.sahistory.org.za/archive/nelson-mandela-rivonia-trial-court-statement-1964-video

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Unfortunate, but expected. The man lived a long life.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited December 2013


    I really think that reminding people of how conservatives truly felt about the man is very important, now that they can try to use his passing as a way to launder themselves.

    Edit: Dave Weigel has an excellent piece on why we should embrace, not avoid politicizing Mandela's memory.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    I do wonder how his passing and reactions to him and the things he did will affect the US political climate. We can probably discuss that elsewhere but I imagine a lot of elected officials are going to say the right things about Mandela, but their constituents are going to flip out going "omg terrorist."

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I do wonder how his passing and reactions to him and the things he did will affect the US political climate. We can probably discuss that elsewhere but I imagine a lot of elected officials are going to say the right things about Mandela, but their constituents are going to flip out going "omg terrorist."

    The House of Breitbart has gone the latter route (and worse) today, from what I've heard.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    "Leaders cannot afford to hate." - Nelson Mandela.

    That quote will stick with me forever. What an amazing human being.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    It's also worth considering that most conservative leaders today were cutting their teeth in the 80s. And one of the big causes celebre for those young Turks then was opposition to anti-apartheid sanctions.

    Keep that in mind when you hear their platitudes this week.

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  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    It's also worth considering that most conservative leaders today were cutting their teeth in the 80s. And one of the big causes celebre for those young Turks then was opposition to anti-apartheid sanctions.

    Keep that in mind when you hear their platitudes this week.

    Politicians are double-faced sacks of hypocritical shite? Colour me surprised.

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    One of the remarkable things about Mandela's death is the people being honest by noting they don't know anything about him, and even more remarkable is those who self-educate about him and have their minds blown.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Edith UpwardsMrVyngaardHachface
  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    In the past 24 hours I've seen people of all kinds try and 'rehabilitate' Mandela into a paragon of their own virtues. I've seen the libertarian-leaning argue that his love of "freedom" translates into a desire to let individuals do what they like, and I've even seen silicon valley-types argue that he's a "disruptive" and "pivotal" individual whose opinions would be at home in large corporations.

    It seems like it's not just a case of people claiming that they were secretly a Mandela superfan all along, but about taking one aspect of Mandela's life, writings, beliefs or mythology, stripping it of context and then filling in what's missing with whatever story you want to tell. The former is occurring of course, and I think this Martin Rowson sums it up quite nicely:IsTKOWa.jpg

  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    Dear revisionists,

    Mandela will never, ever be your minstrel. Over the next few days you will try so, so hard to make him something he was not, and you will fail.

    You will try to smooth him, to sandblast him, to take away his Malcolm X. You will try to hide his anger from view. Right now, you are anxiously pacing the corridors of your condos and country estates, looking for the right words, the right tributes, the right-wing tributes.

    You will say that Mandela was not about race. You will say that Mandela was not about politics. You will say that Mandela was about nothing but one love, you will try to reduce him to a lilting reggae tune. "Let’s get together, and feel alright."

    Yes, you will do that.

    You will make out that apartheid was just some sort of evil mystical space disease that suddenly fell from the heavens and settled on all of us, had us all, black or white, in its thrall, until Mandela appeared from the ether to redeem us.

    You will try to make Mandela a Magic Negro and you will fail.

    You will say that Mandela stood above all for forgiveness whilst scuttling swiftly over the details of the perversity that he had the grace to forgive. You will try to make out that apartheid was some horrid spontaneous historical aberration, and not the logical culmination of centuries of imperial arrogance.

    Yes, you will try that too.

    You will imply or audaciously state that its evils ended the day Mandela stepped out of jail. You will fold your hands and say the blacks have no one to blame now but themselves.

    Well, try hard as you like, and you’ll fail. Because Mandela was about politics and he was about race and he was about freedom and he was even about force, and he did what he felt he had to do and given the current economic inequality in South Africa he might even have died thinking he didn’t do nearly enough of it.

    And perhaps the greatest tragedy of Mandela’s life isn’t that he spent almost 30 years jailed by well-heeled racists who tried to shatter millions of spirits through breaking his soul, but that there weren’t or aren’t nearly enough people like him. Because that’s South Africa now, a country long ago plunged headfirst so deep into the sewage of racial hatred that, for all Mandela’s efforts, it is still retching by the side of the swamp.

    Just imagine if Cape Town were London. Imagine seeing two million white people living in shacks and mud huts along the M25 as you make your way into the city, where most of the biggest houses and biggest jobs are occupied by a small, affluent to wealthy group of black people.

    There are no words for the resentment that would still simmer there.

    Nelson Mandela was not a god, floating elegantly above us and saving us. He was utterly, thoroughly human, and he did all he did in spite of people like you. There is no need to name you because you know who you are, we know who you are and you know we know that too.

    You didn’t break him in life, and you won’t shape him in death. You will try, wherever you are, and you will fail.

    Fuck year.

    AngelHedgieMrVyngaardJurgJeep-EepJuliusGiggles_FunsworthshrykeCaptainNemoRhesus PositiveSkeith
  • ComradebotComradebot Lord of Dinosaurs Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    South Africa has always held a special place in my heart. There's no where else in the world like it, both the rich, unique history nor the racial struggles its endured (and continues to endure).

    Nelson Mandela was a great man who will be missed greatly. But he was 95 and nearly universally beloved. A long life, a loving family, and a place in history as one of the greats; it's a heck of a legacy to leave behind.

    KalkinoEdith Upwards
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    In "lesser known signs of the apocalypse" news, Newt Gingrich takes conservatives attacking Mandela to task:
    Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country.
    After years of preaching non-violence, using the political system, making his case as a defendant in court, Mandela resorted to violence against a government that was ruthless and violent in its suppression of free speech.

    As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army’s dictatorial assault on our freedom.

    Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”

    Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that “all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

    Doesn’t this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?

    Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.

    Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.

    I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.

    (Actually, I'm being overly harsh on Newt - he was a member of the conservative anti-apartheid movement in the 80s,for the reasons he laid out.)

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    KalkinoHonkComradebotShadowfire
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    In "lesser known signs of the apocalypse" news, Newt Gingrich takes conservatives attacking Mandela to task:
    Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country.
    After years of preaching non-violence, using the political system, making his case as a defendant in court, Mandela resorted to violence against a government that was ruthless and violent in its suppression of free speech.

    As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army’s dictatorial assault on our freedom.

    Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”

    Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that “all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

    Doesn’t this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?

    Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.

    Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.

    I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.

    (Actually, I'm being overly harsh on Newt - he was a member of the conservative anti-apartheid movement in the 80s,for the reasons he laid out.)

    And voted for the override of Reagan's veto. So, good for you, Newt Gingrich?

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    HonkComradebot
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    One of the remarkable things about Mandela's death is the people being honest by noting they don't know anything about him, and even more remarkable is those who self-educate about him and have their minds blown.

    I'm finding out all sorts of new things about Mandela. Most of them making Reagan and Thatcher look even worse then before.

    Which is ... impressive.

    HenroidKalkinoCaveman PawsTam
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    I think few right wing governments in power during Apartheid come across particularly well, especially during the later stages with Mandela. In NZ the anti Apartheid movement/Free Mandela movement was one of the principle mass movements of the last 30 years, mobilising largely the left. Although some in the right too, as there is a strong vein of socially liberal/economically rightward types (neo liberalism?), quite a few of whom have come forward this last few days to remember those days.

    http://publicaddress.net/hardnews/mandela/

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • ComradebotComradebot Lord of Dinosaurs Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    In "lesser known signs of the apocalypse" news, Newt Gingrich takes conservatives attacking Mandela to task:
    Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country.
    After years of preaching non-violence, using the political system, making his case as a defendant in court, Mandela resorted to violence against a government that was ruthless and violent in its suppression of free speech.

    As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army’s dictatorial assault on our freedom.

    Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”

    Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that “all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

    Doesn’t this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?

    Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.

    Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.

    I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.

    (Actually, I'm being overly harsh on Newt - he was a member of the conservative anti-apartheid movement in the 80s,for the reasons he laid out.)

    I don't always agree with Newt Gingrich (heck, I usually don't at all), but he's absolutely spot on with everything he's said. But stuff like this remind me he's a throwback to an earlier generation of Republicans, even if a lot of his "stances" have now conformed to their more modern, ass backwards positions.

    *sigh*... I miss Barry Goldwater :-(

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    One of the remarkable things about Mandela's death is the people being honest by noting they don't know anything about him, and even more remarkable is those who self-educate about him and have their minds blown.

    I'm finding out all sorts of new things about Mandela. Most of them making Reagan and Thatcher look even worse then before.

    Which is ... impressive.

    the Cold War era in general was an awful time. Everyone had ot be grouped into Allies or Communists. and Allies in our book simply ended up meaning anyone who's not a Communist. The US and UK made some awful alliances with horrible governments during this time all in the name of stopping the Russians influence.

    Brainleech
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