The returns are really meant for literal unplayable games though. It's not Steam's fault that you didn't actually enjoy the game.
I think there is a big difference between "Didn't enjoy a game" and "Found out it was missing what I wanted but was told it had."
I'm not trying to get a refund for my game but I think the 2 hour window is still too small. Either that or companies stop lying to consumers - either way I am happy.
The returns are really meant for literal unplayable games though. It's not Steam's fault that you didn't actually enjoy the game.
True, but even in Steam's return policy it says the the 2 hour, 2 week thing is just an initial guideline or 'no questions asked' period. You can send them a request via support for a refund on stuff exceeding that and they'll approve/deny on a case by case basis if they feel it's warranted.
Interesting. When I bought Arkham Knight I waited about a month (less than an hour played) for them to fix it. When it was obvious they weren't I requested a refund, but got denied because it was outside the 2 week window.
The returns are really meant for literal unplayable games though. It's not Steam's fault that you didn't actually enjoy the game.
I think there is a big difference between "Didn't enjoy a game" and "Found out it was missing what I wanted but was told it had."
I'm not trying to get a refund for my game but I think the 2 hour window is still too small. Either that or companies stop lying to consumers - either way I am happy.
The 2 hour window is the "This game literally doesn't work on my computer" window. Or any other reason outside the game itself. I accidently bought two copies, a friend gifted me the game right after I bought it, It doesn't work at all, It's the wrong game, etc etc.
It's also just a guideline, and in the refund section is says you can still apply for a refund outside that 2 hour window, it will just be done on a case by case basis instead of automatic. For most games you'll know in 2 hours if it's what you want. They can't really make it longer than that because a lot of games clock in right around 10 hours for completion. So they run the risk of people playing a game, rushing through it and then just refunding it. This way they deal with the technical issue refunds, and then force players to make a case for the longer time investment ones, weeding out most who are trying to cheat the system.
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Let's end this stupid argument once and for all. Allow me to copy/paste Sean Murray quotes from the article Bethryn linked earlier:
…[the player] will be attacked by AI, potentially — very rarely — other players, things like that if they cross paths with them
Can you attack, or be attacked, by other players? No. Broken Promise.
But actually going to a planet and a player being in the same space at the same time is incredibly rare. And it’s something that, depending on how many people play the game, might not even happen, basically. If it does, we want people to have a sense of that.
This is phrased to indicate that seeing another player is rare, but possible, and it happening should be felt as an enormous thing by players. Can you see other players? No. Broken Promise.
Interviewer: Will you be able to play with your friends?
Murray: Yes
Can you play with your friends? No. Broken Promise.
You can do whatever acrobatics you like to justify or explain it, but that doesn't change the fact that Sean Murray talked about Multiplayer a a feature to the press as part of the PR campaign to build hype for the game. People may have purchased this game based on those interviews and promised features. The only statement ever made that it was definitively not multiplayer was a single tweet the day before launch, easily missed by anyone not following Murray on Twitter and long after the preorders were in. Intentional or not, customers were deceived about the nature of the game they purchased. It's plenty for a civil lawsuit to use as it's basis.
The Aliens lawsuit (still ongoing, Gearbox dropped from the list of defendants, and is no longer a class action) started based on the claim "showing demos at trade shows like PAX and E3 that were not ultimately accurate representations of the final product." SimCity didn't get a suit, but EA/Maxis apologized early by giving free games away. There's enough precedent here that if someone wants to follow up against HG/Sony, they have a case.
At the end of the day we take a risk with games, I totally get it. I choose to partake in this industry and I know the rules. I just wish we had a bit better protection from situations like this.
No Man's Sky brings up another issue that I have with return policies not being functional enough.
Any large scale game isn't explorable in 2 hours and that's simply not enough time. I was told there was multiplayer, planets get more diverse as you get closer to the center, and that the ending was 'amazing.' None of that is even remotely true.
I'm kinda sick of companies marketing games totally different than they are released and we have no repercussions as consumers to defend against that except "wait for reviews." That is not even close to good enough.
Gaming is a luxury for sure, but that doesn't mean that we can be lied to because "meh, video games."
While I agree the PR for this game was irresponsible, you can't expect a developer to not use positive adjectives about every aspect of the game.
"The ending will be fantastic" is fine to say, even if it's shit. It's subjective, and you're obviously trying to sell your game.
"The ending will include naked grizzly bears" is not okay, unless you've got 'em.
That's my only gripe. The things that were talked about that never made it in (even if they were planned), there should have been some communication that it was cut. I fully believe they didn't clarify the multiplayer misconception simply because they thought you'd never be able to tell. But that aspect aside, there's the AI, the factions, the space battles with zero depth, the boring NPC system. Any other game would get blasted out of the water if they passed all that off as RPG elements.
Regarding the creature complexity, I think NMS makes a case against procedural generation for this type of game. I don't care if there are unlimited permutations of a thing if the thing is only remarkable one time in every hundred. Most creatures in this game are a derpy mess. Floating around with tentacle feet. Melons or heads. And then there are only so many times you can randomize a planet's colour palette before you realize that's all there is to it.
and that the ending was 'amazing.' None of that is even remotely true.
TBH beyond what you see on the surface, it gets into some very interesting metaphysical territory. In this case I think it's the wrong venue, and certainly the wrong game, to attempt to touch on the point they may have been trying to make with it. Most people will interpret it more simply or wrongly.
I uh, just want to point out that Steam has been advertising the game as Single Player for quite some time.
Definitely well before release.
If people were expecting multiplayer out of a single player game then I don't really know what to tell them.
Pick one of these:
- Stop listening to the people who are making the game
- You can't trust words from the studio owner's mouth
- As soon as a month previous, that interview means nothing
- Steam tags are the be all end all?
I uh, just want to point out that Steam has been advertising the game as Single Player for quite some time.
Definitely well before release.
If people were expecting multiplayer out of a single player game then I don't really know what to tell them.
Snippets of old interviews talking about features that ended up cut from the final product are broken promises, though! I wont hear anything otherwise. Somebody get my lawyer on the phone!
Give me a break...
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
I uh, just want to point out that Steam has been advertising the game as Single Player for quite some time.
Definitely well before release.
If people were expecting multiplayer out of a single player game then I don't really know what to tell them.
Listings have been wrong before. Stores have listed games as being on 360 that were actually PS3 exclusive and vice versa, and got a lot of people riled up about it.
How do you choose one source of info over another? Trust the site or trust the developer? In this case tons of people saw the Steam listing and said "oh we know that's wrong, Sean said we could meet other players," or they did mental gymnastics to say "well yeah in a sense even though you can see other people it's still sort of single player," or they went a different weird route entirely and said "no way is this single player, you can see other peoples' discoveries, that's a multiplayer interaction."
Above all people were expecting multiplayer out of a single player game because the lead dev told them it was multiplayer. I don't know what to tell you.
The returns are really meant for literal unplayable games though. It's not Steam's fault that you didn't actually enjoy the game.
True, but even in Steam's return policy it says the the 2 hour, 2 week thing is just an initial guideline or 'no questions asked' period. You can send them a request via support for a refund on stuff exceeding that and they'll approve/deny on a case by case basis if they feel it's warranted.
Interesting. When I bought Arkham Knight I waited about a month (less than an hour played) for them to fix it. When it was obvious they weren't I requested a refund, but got denied because it was outside the 2 week window.
That makes sense. The 2 hour thing I feel they would be willing to be more lenient on based on the nature of the game itself, but it would be a hard sell to convince them to refund you a month out.
In that case if the game didn't work out the gate I would have gotten the refund right then or within the 2 weeks, instead of hoping the developers would fix it. After all if they did fix it, you could always buy the game again.
Hindsight 20/20 and all that though, but that's how I would do it in the future if I were in your shoes.
For NMS for instance I was prepared to refund the game day one because of the reports I heard about how it played on PC. Luckily it ran fine for me, but if it hadn't for any reason I would have just refunded it right there and either tried again at a later date or gotten the PS4 one.
You can request a refund for nearly any purchase on Steam—for any reason. Maybe your PC doesn't meet the hardware requirements; maybe you bought a game by mistake; maybe you played the title for an hour and just didn't like it.
It doesn't matter. Valve will, upon request via help.steampowered.com, issue a refund for any reason, if the request is made within fourteen days of purchase, and the title has been played for less than two hours. There are more details below, but even if you fall outside of the refund rules we’ve described, you can ask for a refund anyway and we’ll take a look.
You will be issued a full refund of your purchase within a week of approval. You will receive the refund in Steam Wallet funds or through the same payment method you used to make the purchase. If, for any reason, Steam is unable to issue a refund via your initial payment method, your Steam Wallet will be credited the full amount. (Some payment methods available through Steam in your country may not support refunding a purchase back to the original payment method. Click here for a full list.)
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I honestly thought the Center is where everyone would meet. That we were spread out and may run across each other but then we would all see each other more as we got closer.
I mean, there is literally nothing at the center so anything would have been better than that shit they pulled. At least Notch put a god damned dragon at the end of Minecraft, lol.
Edit: Oh, and just for funzies, I was 10 minutes over the 2 hour for Fallout 4 and Steam said no to my refund request. I'm not saying that they won't do it for different for whatever people but it's a gamble.
I'm not surprised things were changed and promises weren't delivered on. That's the case for basically every game I can remember. The most surprising thing to me is that there are still people who believe every promise they hear when designers are hyping their games. Doesn't mean that it's not silly to pull a Molyneux, but seriously, I killed the part of me that was credulous when it came to pre-release hype way the hell back when Black & White came out.
Can you find crashed ships without the transmission tower? Like as I'm doing a low fly by of the planet... is it possible to find a crash site?
Yep. They're harder to see than the other types of landmarks, but they're there whether you get a waypoint to it or not.
Not always. I have definitely found crashed ships on my own, but I have also found a lot of sites where a crashed ship is clearly going to spawn, but hasn't yet because you haven't used a transmission tower.
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I uh, just want to point out that Steam has been advertising the game as Single Player for quite some time.
Definitely well before release.
If people were expecting multiplayer out of a single player game then I don't really know what to tell them.
Snippets of old interviews talking about features that ended up cut from the final product are broken promises, though! I wont hear anything otherwise. Somebody get my lawyer on the phone!
Give me a break...
Years of interviews vs one tweet. Yeah, I wonder how people might have been confused?
I was not. I saw the tweet. Doesn't mean I'm going to hop on my high horse and belittle hundreds of thousands of other gamers that didn't.
When you spend years hyping a feature of the game, and it gets removed, the appropriate thing to do is loudly proclaim it to the press. Leave no room for ambiguity. Apologize if you must, but if you're going to go back on something that fundamental, you have to own up to it, send out a press release, send someone out to talk to the press and do damage control, and do it as quickly as possible, not wait until the day before release.
i see a lot of post with people saying moons are better because there are more posts near each other, but from my experience they seem to be random, or atleast somewhat based on the planet type. i had a jungle planet once with tons of settlement buildings all over it was great, but my best of all was a barren planet type with no flora no fauna passive sentinels and no dangerous weather not even storms. and best of all this planet was a rocky world with clear viability and just littered with settlement buildings. i made 20 mil in a very very short period of time scavenging from crashed ships. i also saw the coolest ship ive seen in the game at a trading station but it was a 48 slot and the guy was selling it for 170 million which i could not afford.
Can you go into more detail on this? I spent quite awhile collecting 100 graviton balls and still only made 3mil.
I.e., I am interested in your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
Find crashed ship, opt to transfer ownership of that ship to you, strip all of the modules to their component parts, go back to your old ship(which is still there), transfer ownership back along with any of the valuable minerals/components.
this exactly, and also the more upgrades your ship has, the more comperable the crashed ships will be. one time i found a crashed ship with 7 theta mods on it. you get a ton of omegon and emirl and gold and aluminum. and depending on if you find it an exploit or not you will also get stackable nutrino mods, gravitino balls, vortex cubes, and the matrix thing that will all stack to 100.
It didn't really sound fundamental to me though. He claims that it'll be very rare that you'll run into another player.
Not only that but it wasn't until he was pressed where he offered that it might be possible. My charitable read on that was that maybe he was going to try and make it happen, but I remember when I saw those interviews that the distinct impression I got was not to count on ever running into another player.
Of course we then find out after release that it's not physically possible, so it obviously never made it into the game, but for me I went into the game expecting to never see another player.
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0
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
It didn't really sound fundamental to me though. He claims that it'll be very rare that you'll run into another player.
Not only that but it wasn't until he was pressed where he offered that it might be possible. My charitable read on that was that maybe he was going to try and make it happen, but I remember when I saw those interviews that the distinct impression I got was not to count on ever running into another player.
Of course we then find out after release that it's not physically possible, so it obviously never made it into the game, but for me I went into the game expecting to never see another player.
Put it this way, do you believe there is a player character model?
If there isn't, multiplayer was never planned at all, right?
It didn't really sound fundamental to me though. He claims that it'll be very rare that you'll run into another player.
"Very Rare" means "it can happen". Which means "we coded in some form of player location data that can be shared with other players", which is a pretty fundamental part of a game's code, regardless of how fundamental it might be to the core gameplay loop. Hell, there are people that buy COD every year for the single player campaign and never try the multi!
The point is, he said they were adding multiplayer. It doesn't matter the scope, or the focus, or how "rare" it was, he stated multiple times on the press circuit that it was there, as a feature. We know now that the game that shipped has NO multiplayer at all, no data is shared, you cannot find or interact in any way at all, let alone the ways that were described by the game's creator.
This argument is frustrating to me, because, like, I don't care that it's single player. I care that professionals conduct themselves with integrity, especially when relaying information to customers. You don't say a thing unless you know it's certain, and when you're wrong or things change, you clearly tell your customers ASAP so as not to adversely affect their purchasing decisions. Granted, when I have to do shit like this, our customers are businesses making multi-million dollar purchases. Perhaps the unwashed gamer masses aren't deserving of the same courtesy since they're only spending $60 a pop. :P
It didn't really sound fundamental to me though. He claims that it'll be very rare that you'll run into another player.
Not only that but it wasn't until he was pressed where he offered that it might be possible. My charitable read on that was that maybe he was going to try and make it happen, but I remember when I saw those interviews that the distinct impression I got was not to count on ever running into another player.
Of course we then find out after release that it's not physically possible, so it obviously never made it into the game, but for me I went into the game expecting to never see another player.
Put it this way, do you believe there is a player character model?
If there isn't, multiplayer was never planned at all, right?
That statement doesn't hold true.
My guess is that it wasn't initially planned. Then the interviews happened and the idea sort of got created and they started to thinkg about incorporating it (this was still years out from release), so perhaps at that point they did start to plan it. Then it was clear that it wasn't going to make the game release given that they would need to create a player model, adjust the camera, have the servers be ale to sync up with multiple players being in one spot. So it didn't get in. Maybe they'll still add it? Maybe it's also almost ready? Maybe it'll never happen.
Unless you think that it only matters that an idea happens at game conception, then a statement like the one you made is pretty nonsensical. That's simply not how game development works....at all. Features get thought up early and cut, or thought up late and added all the time. It's an iterative process tempered by time and funding.
Personally I don't think there is a player model, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether multiplayer was ever planned or not though.
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Ah I understand. To me when you mention fundamental I thought you meant for the overall experience of the game. Every press release I read of this game seemed incredibly boring to me so I avoided any news/videos of it because I wrote the game off a long time ago. But when it came out and people started complaining about it then my interest in the game grew because the things they complained about sounded exactly like the game I would enjoy.
Hopefully people realize now that preordering games is pretty well dangerous because companies clearly don't give a crap about us. With the age of Twitch and video reviews there's so little reason to walk into a trap this large other than preorder hype.
Maybe they'll still add it? Maybe it's also almost ready? Maybe it'll never happen.
This part is probably the worst of it for me. Regardless of everything else, it's the fact that we can't get a straight fucking answer about anything is the part that pisses me off the most. You don't know what they're doing, what they want to do, what they can or can't do, what they're going to do or not going to do, nothing except constant dodges that don't really answer or explain anything.
Ah I understand. To me when you mention fundamental I thought you meant for the overall experience of the game. Every press release I read of this game seemed incredibly boring to me so I avoided any news/videos of it because I wrote the game off a long time ago. But when it came out and people started complaining about it then my interest in the game grew because the things they complained about sounded exactly like the game I would enjoy.
Hopefully people realize now that preordering games is pretty well dangerous because companies clearly don't give a crap about us. With the age of Twitch and video reviews there's so little reason to walk into a trap this large other than preorder hype.
Eh, that's a pretty cynical view (and I consider myself a pretty cynical guy!). It's a pretty big leap from under delivering to flat out not caring. I think developers are human, I think they very much do care, but I also think there is a real problem with over promising and under delivering, in addition to the inherent problems with the Hype mill and how it feeds into itself.
If you are talking about the financial investors in a game though? Yeah I'd agree, they don't care. They want a return on their investment as soon as possible typically, and will cut whatever they need to try and get it, whether it's content, quality, or time.
I don't know that that was the case here though. I think this is the result of the Hype Mill more than anything, and the developer buying into their own hype and getting caught up in it with making promises they couldn't deliver on.
But I don't think that's because they didn't care.
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0
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I believe the range for new tools is from -1 to +2. I have heard, however, people complain of they get an upgrade from a monolith, it bugs out and only gives them new ones based on the range of the old tool until they but a downgrade.
Anecdotal, here say.
I had something like this happen, but it was fixed by going to a different planet and looking for tools there.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
I believe the range for new tools is from -1 to +2. I have heard, however, people complain of they get an upgrade from a monolith, it bugs out and only gives them new ones based on the range of the old tool until they but a downgrade.
Anecdotal, here say.
I had something like this happen, but it was fixed by going to a different planet and looking for tools there.
When it happened to me, I bought the "inferior" multitool eventually (I was offered a bunch of -1 slot multitools), and the next multitool I got was +3 slots, for some reason. It could be that during one of the patches there was a data mismatch, such that the game thought that a -1 slot multitool is actually a+1 slot multitool, which is why it keeps offering it.
0
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
It didn't really sound fundamental to me though. He claims that it'll be very rare that you'll run into another player.
Not only that but it wasn't until he was pressed where he offered that it might be possible. My charitable read on that was that maybe he was going to try and make it happen, but I remember when I saw those interviews that the distinct impression I got was not to count on ever running into another player.
Of course we then find out after release that it's not physically possible, so it obviously never made it into the game, but for me I went into the game expecting to never see another player.
Put it this way, do you believe there is a player character model?
If there isn't, multiplayer was never planned at all, right?
That statement doesn't hold true.
My guess is that it wasn't initially planned. Then the interviews happened and the idea sort of got created and they started to thinkg about incorporating it (this was still years out from release), so perhaps at that point they did start to plan it. Then it was clear that it wasn't going to make the game release given that they would need to create a player model, adjust the camera, have the servers be ale to sync up with multiple players being in one spot. So it didn't get in. Maybe they'll still add it? Maybe it's also almost ready? Maybe it'll never happen.
Unless you think that it only matters that an idea happens at game conception, then a statement like the one you made is pretty nonsensical. That's simply not how game development works....at all. Features get thought up early and cut, or thought up late and added all the time. It's an iterative process tempered by time and funding.
Personally I don't think there is a player model, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether multiplayer was ever planned or not though.
One does not simply add multiplayer. If it wasn't planned from the beginning, we're not getting it in NMS. Simple as that.
And yes whether there is a player model does have something to do with whether multiplayer was planned. You don't design an engine/game and then thing you'll consider multiplayer later down the road. Having a player model is one part of it, where clearly there was no consideration that anyone would need to see you. Another part is a pause button.
Another example, when you activate an outpost the camera zooms up and then zooms back down. Right? No, your actual character zooms up then zooms down. There is no camera. It's glitched out a few times where I literally fly up 100 feet, then back down, all with my HUD and weapon, and I even hear the fall damage. That's an odd way to handle that sequence unless you have no thought toward whether it will matter to another player.
But if your guess is right, why not clarify that multiplayer isn't in before zero hour? I really can't understand the viewpoint that everything was kosher there... he still hasn't come out and said anything about it. He never will. There are enough apologists instead trying to redefine the meaning on the word "lie" rather than saying, "Yeah, you know what, I still like the game, but that was a shitty fucking thing for a developer to do."
Can you find crashed ships without the transmission tower? Like as I'm doing a low fly by of the planet... is it possible to find a crash site?
Yep. They're harder to see than the other types of landmarks, but they're there whether you get a waypoint to it or not.
Not always. I have definitely found crashed ships on my own, but I have also found a lot of sites where a crashed ship is clearly going to spawn, but hasn't yet because you haven't used a transmission tower.
This might be another case of stumbling across something you've already discovered
Are you sure those are the tweets you meant to link?
Neither of those tweets really supports the idea of meeting up with other players beyond the very very basic idea of it being technically possible, which we know to not be the case.
Those tweets do really support the idea that players should not be getting this game for anything regarding multiplayer though. I don't however expect players to be following the twitter of developers, even these days.
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Are you sure those are the tweets you meant to link?
Neither of those tweets really supports the idea of meeting up with other players beyond the very very basic idea of it being technically possible, which we know to not be the case.
Those tweets do really support the idea that players should not be getting this game for anything regarding multiplayer though. I don't however expect players to be following the twitter of developers, even these days.
"The chances of two players ever crossing paths in a universe this large is pretty much zero."
That is very specifically not "you will not cross paths with other players" or "crossing paths with other players is impossible in No Man's Sky on a technical level because there is nothing to support multiplayer in the game." It is continuing the narrative that Hello Games established when multiplayer was first discussed, that it would be possible, but many players would never experience it due to the size of the galaxy. Whenever multiplayer was brought up, Sean would say it was possible, but also was unlikely. At no point did this narrative change, despite no multiplayer functionality ever getting implemented.
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I love the game.
I find the (currently) Korvax story from the monoliths interesting, I love that the abandoned buildings seem to be places that something bad happened (and several have mentioned the Atlas, making me suspect a darker side to the Atlas path). I've had fun animals, good resources, ships, and tools, I'm still getting new words and new blueprints (though not for my ship or my Multitool, those seem either maxed out or locked behind warp jumps). The worst I can say is that of all the planets I've gotten thus far, 3 have had water and thus far I haven't seen a single Aquasphere. I've seen animals move in packs. I've met multiple animals that I've been huge to, and a few that have been much larger than me.
It would be nice to see more variety in buildings. It would be nice to see event-type sites added (downed freighters, nomad encampments, etc). It would be nice to have more storage, more stuff to build towards. Maybe a use for these (three now) alloy blueprints I have. But I've yet to get 48 hours into the game, and I'm already acknowledging that this is a "game for me". I haven't even tried to look for things to fight in space, so I've got that to look forward to (or dread, depending on how that goes).
That said, that all said, you should never let a creative mind be the PR face for your game. Not the artist, not the coder, for god's sake. You need a person who knows how to engage in people interaction.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
+2
MichaelLCIn what furnace was thy brain?ChicagoRegistered Userregular
i see a lot of post with people saying moons are better because there are more posts near each other, but from my experience they seem to be random, or atleast somewhat based on the planet type. i had a jungle planet once with tons of settlement buildings all over it was great, but my best of all was a barren planet type with no flora no fauna passive sentinels and no dangerous weather not even storms. and best of all this planet was a rocky world with clear viability and just littered with settlement buildings. i made 20 mil in a very very short period of time scavenging from crashed ships. i also saw the coolest ship ive seen in the game at a trading station but it was a 48 slot and the guy was selling it for 170 million which i could not afford.
Can you go into more detail on this? I spent quite awhile collecting 100 graviton balls and still only made 3mil.
I.e., I am interested in your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
Find crashed ship, opt to transfer ownership of that ship to you, strip all of the modules to their component parts, go back to your old ship(which is still there), transfer ownership back along with any of the valuable minerals/components.
this exactly, and also the more upgrades your ship has, the more comperable the crashed ships will be. one time i found a crashed ship with 7 theta mods on it. you get a ton of omegon and emirl and gold and aluminum. and depending on if you find it an exploit or not you will also get stackable nutrino mods, gravitino balls, vortex cubes, and the matrix thing that will all stack to 100.
Thanks. I'll give that a try tonight. I'm just looking to do more ship hopping and try new designs but don't have the cash.
Are you sure those are the tweets you meant to link?
Neither of those tweets really supports the idea of meeting up with other players beyond the very very basic idea of it being technically possible, which we know to not be the case.
Those tweets do really support the idea that players should not be getting this game for anything regarding multiplayer though. I don't however expect players to be following the twitter of developers, even these days.
"The chances of two players ever crossing paths in a universe this large is pretty much zero."
That is very specifically not "you will not cross paths with other players" or "crossing paths with other players is impossible in No Man's Sky on a technical level because there is nothing to support multiplayer in the game." It is continuing the narrative that Hello Games established when multiplayer was first discussed, that it would be possible, but many players would never experience it due to the size of the galaxy. Whenever multiplayer was brought up, Sean would say it was possible, but also was unlikely. At no point did this narrative change, despite no multiplayer functionality ever getting implemented.
I guess I'm not seeing your point? I'm not arguing that they didn't speak poorly and spread misinformation.
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Can you find crashed ships without the transmission tower? Like as I'm doing a low fly by of the planet... is it possible to find a crash site?
Yep. They're harder to see than the other types of landmarks, but they're there whether you get a waypoint to it or not.
Not always. I have definitely found crashed ships on my own, but I have also found a lot of sites where a crashed ship is clearly going to spawn, but hasn't yet because you haven't used a transmission tower.
This might be another case of stumbling across something you've already discovered
This is on worlds where I had not switched ships at all nor collected any.
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
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SurfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
edited August 2016
…[the player] will be attacked by AI, potentially — very rarely — other players, things like that if they cross paths with them
Bolded the relevant word. Yes, you can read it to mean it definitely can happen and potentially might, but still.
But actually going to a planet and a player being in the same space at the same time is incredibly rare. And it’s something that, depending on how many people play the game, might not even happen, basically. If it does, we want people to have a sense of that.
Wanting people to have a sense of something 1) indicates a desire to do something, not a concrete accomplishment and 2) doesn't say anything about seeing/interacting with them. It could just be you see the timestamp on the "discovered by" thing.
Interviewer: Will you be able to play with your friends?
Murray: Yes
Technically true, which is all you can expect from a yes/no QA session.
You literally cross each others' paths, the path being the trail of discovered planets.
I do think they had grander plans for the multiplayer aspect. I do suspect he was intentionally being vague because he felt like that sense of other people out there was an important atmospheric element, and describing exactly how the "multiplayer" (downloading names) worked would spoil that. I do think he probably should have known that people would take this vagueness to mean that you will literally be flying alongside each other. That's what I thought for a while as well, despite knowing how problematic that would be from a technical standpoint.
I don't think any of that crosses the line into trying to make people think this was going to be multiplayer in the MMO sense.
I think this boils down to 1) whether multiplayer just means the actions of other players can impact your game and 2) if you're willing to believe that Sean Murray is not 100% a dick.
Can you find crashed ships without the transmission tower? Like as I'm doing a low fly by of the planet... is it possible to find a crash site?
Yep. They're harder to see than the other types of landmarks, but they're there whether you get a waypoint to it or not.
Not always. I have definitely found crashed ships on my own, but I have also found a lot of sites where a crashed ship is clearly going to spawn, but hasn't yet because you haven't used a transmission tower.
This might be another case of stumbling across something you've already discovered
This is on worlds where I had not switched ships at all nor collected any.
Interesting. Now I wonder if this is related to the bug where sometimes waypoints don't lead to anything at all.
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I think there is a big difference between "Didn't enjoy a game" and "Found out it was missing what I wanted but was told it had."
I'm not trying to get a refund for my game but I think the 2 hour window is still too small. Either that or companies stop lying to consumers - either way I am happy.
Interesting. When I bought Arkham Knight I waited about a month (less than an hour played) for them to fix it. When it was obvious they weren't I requested a refund, but got denied because it was outside the 2 week window.
The 2 hour window is the "This game literally doesn't work on my computer" window. Or any other reason outside the game itself. I accidently bought two copies, a friend gifted me the game right after I bought it, It doesn't work at all, It's the wrong game, etc etc.
It's also just a guideline, and in the refund section is says you can still apply for a refund outside that 2 hour window, it will just be done on a case by case basis instead of automatic. For most games you'll know in 2 hours if it's what you want. They can't really make it longer than that because a lot of games clock in right around 10 hours for completion. So they run the risk of people playing a game, rushing through it and then just refunding it. This way they deal with the technical issue refunds, and then force players to make a case for the longer time investment ones, weeding out most who are trying to cheat the system.
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Can you attack, or be attacked, by other players? No. Broken Promise.
This is phrased to indicate that seeing another player is rare, but possible, and it happening should be felt as an enormous thing by players. Can you see other players? No. Broken Promise.
Can you play with your friends? No. Broken Promise.
You can do whatever acrobatics you like to justify or explain it, but that doesn't change the fact that Sean Murray talked about Multiplayer a a feature to the press as part of the PR campaign to build hype for the game. People may have purchased this game based on those interviews and promised features. The only statement ever made that it was definitively not multiplayer was a single tweet the day before launch, easily missed by anyone not following Murray on Twitter and long after the preorders were in. Intentional or not, customers were deceived about the nature of the game they purchased. It's plenty for a civil lawsuit to use as it's basis.
The Aliens lawsuit (still ongoing, Gearbox dropped from the list of defendants, and is no longer a class action) started based on the claim "showing demos at trade shows like PAX and E3 that were not ultimately accurate representations of the final product." SimCity didn't get a suit, but EA/Maxis apologized early by giving free games away. There's enough precedent here that if someone wants to follow up against HG/Sony, they have a case.
While I agree the PR for this game was irresponsible, you can't expect a developer to not use positive adjectives about every aspect of the game.
"The ending will be fantastic" is fine to say, even if it's shit. It's subjective, and you're obviously trying to sell your game.
"The ending will include naked grizzly bears" is not okay, unless you've got 'em.
That's my only gripe. The things that were talked about that never made it in (even if they were planned), there should have been some communication that it was cut. I fully believe they didn't clarify the multiplayer misconception simply because they thought you'd never be able to tell. But that aspect aside, there's the AI, the factions, the space battles with zero depth, the boring NPC system. Any other game would get blasted out of the water if they passed all that off as RPG elements.
Regarding the creature complexity, I think NMS makes a case against procedural generation for this type of game. I don't care if there are unlimited permutations of a thing if the thing is only remarkable one time in every hundred. Most creatures in this game are a derpy mess. Floating around with tentacle feet. Melons or heads. And then there are only so many times you can randomize a planet's colour palette before you realize that's all there is to it.
Definitely well before release.
If people were expecting multiplayer out of a single player game then I don't really know what to tell them.
TBH beyond what you see on the surface, it gets into some very interesting metaphysical territory. In this case I think it's the wrong venue, and certainly the wrong game, to attempt to touch on the point they may have been trying to make with it. Most people will interpret it more simply or wrongly.
Pick one of these:
- Stop listening to the people who are making the game
- You can't trust words from the studio owner's mouth
- As soon as a month previous, that interview means nothing
- Steam tags are the be all end all?
Except for that dang lead designer doing T.V. and internet interviews constantly for years proclaiming how multiplayer would work. Woops!
Snippets of old interviews talking about features that ended up cut from the final product are broken promises, though! I wont hear anything otherwise. Somebody get my lawyer on the phone!
Give me a break...
Listings have been wrong before. Stores have listed games as being on 360 that were actually PS3 exclusive and vice versa, and got a lot of people riled up about it.
How do you choose one source of info over another? Trust the site or trust the developer? In this case tons of people saw the Steam listing and said "oh we know that's wrong, Sean said we could meet other players," or they did mental gymnastics to say "well yeah in a sense even though you can see other people it's still sort of single player," or they went a different weird route entirely and said "no way is this single player, you can see other peoples' discoveries, that's a multiplayer interaction."
Above all people were expecting multiplayer out of a single player game because the lead dev told them it was multiplayer. I don't know what to tell you.
That makes sense. The 2 hour thing I feel they would be willing to be more lenient on based on the nature of the game itself, but it would be a hard sell to convince them to refund you a month out.
In that case if the game didn't work out the gate I would have gotten the refund right then or within the 2 weeks, instead of hoping the developers would fix it. After all if they did fix it, you could always buy the game again.
Hindsight 20/20 and all that though, but that's how I would do it in the future if I were in your shoes.
For NMS for instance I was prepared to refund the game day one because of the reports I heard about how it played on PC. Luckily it ran fine for me, but if it hadn't for any reason I would have just refunded it right there and either tried again at a later date or gotten the PS4 one.
edit: The relevant portion of the Steam policy page: http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/
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Edit: Oh, and just for funzies, I was 10 minutes over the 2 hour for Fallout 4 and Steam said no to my refund request. I'm not saying that they won't do it for different for whatever people but it's a gamble.
Not always. I have definitely found crashed ships on my own, but I have also found a lot of sites where a crashed ship is clearly going to spawn, but hasn't yet because you haven't used a transmission tower.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Years of interviews vs one tweet. Yeah, I wonder how people might have been confused?
I was not. I saw the tweet. Doesn't mean I'm going to hop on my high horse and belittle hundreds of thousands of other gamers that didn't.
When you spend years hyping a feature of the game, and it gets removed, the appropriate thing to do is loudly proclaim it to the press. Leave no room for ambiguity. Apologize if you must, but if you're going to go back on something that fundamental, you have to own up to it, send out a press release, send someone out to talk to the press and do damage control, and do it as quickly as possible, not wait until the day before release.
this exactly, and also the more upgrades your ship has, the more comperable the crashed ships will be. one time i found a crashed ship with 7 theta mods on it. you get a ton of omegon and emirl and gold and aluminum. and depending on if you find it an exploit or not you will also get stackable nutrino mods, gravitino balls, vortex cubes, and the matrix thing that will all stack to 100.
Not only that but it wasn't until he was pressed where he offered that it might be possible. My charitable read on that was that maybe he was going to try and make it happen, but I remember when I saw those interviews that the distinct impression I got was not to count on ever running into another player.
Of course we then find out after release that it's not physically possible, so it obviously never made it into the game, but for me I went into the game expecting to never see another player.
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Put it this way, do you believe there is a player character model?
If there isn't, multiplayer was never planned at all, right?
"Very Rare" means "it can happen". Which means "we coded in some form of player location data that can be shared with other players", which is a pretty fundamental part of a game's code, regardless of how fundamental it might be to the core gameplay loop. Hell, there are people that buy COD every year for the single player campaign and never try the multi!
The point is, he said they were adding multiplayer. It doesn't matter the scope, or the focus, or how "rare" it was, he stated multiple times on the press circuit that it was there, as a feature. We know now that the game that shipped has NO multiplayer at all, no data is shared, you cannot find or interact in any way at all, let alone the ways that were described by the game's creator.
This argument is frustrating to me, because, like, I don't care that it's single player. I care that professionals conduct themselves with integrity, especially when relaying information to customers. You don't say a thing unless you know it's certain, and when you're wrong or things change, you clearly tell your customers ASAP so as not to adversely affect their purchasing decisions. Granted, when I have to do shit like this, our customers are businesses making multi-million dollar purchases. Perhaps the unwashed gamer masses aren't deserving of the same courtesy since they're only spending $60 a pop. :P
That statement doesn't hold true.
My guess is that it wasn't initially planned. Then the interviews happened and the idea sort of got created and they started to thinkg about incorporating it (this was still years out from release), so perhaps at that point they did start to plan it. Then it was clear that it wasn't going to make the game release given that they would need to create a player model, adjust the camera, have the servers be ale to sync up with multiple players being in one spot. So it didn't get in. Maybe they'll still add it? Maybe it's also almost ready? Maybe it'll never happen.
Unless you think that it only matters that an idea happens at game conception, then a statement like the one you made is pretty nonsensical. That's simply not how game development works....at all. Features get thought up early and cut, or thought up late and added all the time. It's an iterative process tempered by time and funding.
Personally I don't think there is a player model, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether multiplayer was ever planned or not though.
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Hopefully people realize now that preordering games is pretty well dangerous because companies clearly don't give a crap about us. With the age of Twitch and video reviews there's so little reason to walk into a trap this large other than preorder hype.
This part is probably the worst of it for me. Regardless of everything else, it's the fact that we can't get a straight fucking answer about anything is the part that pisses me off the most. You don't know what they're doing, what they want to do, what they can or can't do, what they're going to do or not going to do, nothing except constant dodges that don't really answer or explain anything.
Eh, that's a pretty cynical view (and I consider myself a pretty cynical guy!). It's a pretty big leap from under delivering to flat out not caring. I think developers are human, I think they very much do care, but I also think there is a real problem with over promising and under delivering, in addition to the inherent problems with the Hype mill and how it feeds into itself.
If you are talking about the financial investors in a game though? Yeah I'd agree, they don't care. They want a return on their investment as soon as possible typically, and will cut whatever they need to try and get it, whether it's content, quality, or time.
I don't know that that was the case here though. I think this is the result of the Hype Mill more than anything, and the developer buying into their own hype and getting caught up in it with making promises they couldn't deliver on.
But I don't think that's because they didn't care.
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I had something like this happen, but it was fixed by going to a different planet and looking for tools there.
One does not simply add multiplayer. If it wasn't planned from the beginning, we're not getting it in NMS. Simple as that.
And yes whether there is a player model does have something to do with whether multiplayer was planned. You don't design an engine/game and then thing you'll consider multiplayer later down the road. Having a player model is one part of it, where clearly there was no consideration that anyone would need to see you. Another part is a pause button.
Another example, when you activate an outpost the camera zooms up and then zooms back down. Right? No, your actual character zooms up then zooms down. There is no camera. It's glitched out a few times where I literally fly up 100 feet, then back down, all with my HUD and weapon, and I even hear the fall damage. That's an odd way to handle that sequence unless you have no thought toward whether it will matter to another player.
But if your guess is right, why not clarify that multiplayer isn't in before zero hour? I really can't understand the viewpoint that everything was kosher there... he still hasn't come out and said anything about it. He never will. There are enough apologists instead trying to redefine the meaning on the word "lie" rather than saying, "Yeah, you know what, I still like the game, but that was a shitty fucking thing for a developer to do."
it wasn't a feature they really wanted to add but just couldn't fit it in
Just a week before release, Sean Murray indicated that players could cross paths
My Steam
This might be another case of stumbling across something you've already discovered
Are you sure those are the tweets you meant to link?
Neither of those tweets really supports the idea of meeting up with other players beyond the very very basic idea of it being technically possible, which we know to not be the case.
Those tweets do really support the idea that players should not be getting this game for anything regarding multiplayer though. I don't however expect players to be following the twitter of developers, even these days.
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"The chances of two players ever crossing paths in a universe this large is pretty much zero."
That is very specifically not "you will not cross paths with other players" or "crossing paths with other players is impossible in No Man's Sky on a technical level because there is nothing to support multiplayer in the game." It is continuing the narrative that Hello Games established when multiplayer was first discussed, that it would be possible, but many players would never experience it due to the size of the galaxy. Whenever multiplayer was brought up, Sean would say it was possible, but also was unlikely. At no point did this narrative change, despite no multiplayer functionality ever getting implemented.
My Steam
I find the (currently) Korvax story from the monoliths interesting, I love that the abandoned buildings seem to be places that something bad happened (and several have mentioned the Atlas, making me suspect a darker side to the Atlas path). I've had fun animals, good resources, ships, and tools, I'm still getting new words and new blueprints (though not for my ship or my Multitool, those seem either maxed out or locked behind warp jumps). The worst I can say is that of all the planets I've gotten thus far, 3 have had water and thus far I haven't seen a single Aquasphere. I've seen animals move in packs. I've met multiple animals that I've been huge to, and a few that have been much larger than me.
It would be nice to see more variety in buildings. It would be nice to see event-type sites added (downed freighters, nomad encampments, etc). It would be nice to have more storage, more stuff to build towards. Maybe a use for these (three now) alloy blueprints I have. But I've yet to get 48 hours into the game, and I'm already acknowledging that this is a "game for me". I haven't even tried to look for things to fight in space, so I've got that to look forward to (or dread, depending on how that goes).
That said, that all said, you should never let a creative mind be the PR face for your game. Not the artist, not the coder, for god's sake. You need a person who knows how to engage in people interaction.
Thanks. I'll give that a try tonight. I'm just looking to do more ship hopping and try new designs but don't have the cash.
I guess I'm not seeing your point? I'm not arguing that they didn't speak poorly and spread misinformation.
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This is on worlds where I had not switched ships at all nor collected any.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Wanting people to have a sense of something 1) indicates a desire to do something, not a concrete accomplishment and 2) doesn't say anything about seeing/interacting with them. It could just be you see the timestamp on the "discovered by" thing.
Technically true, which is all you can expect from a yes/no QA session.
You literally cross each others' paths, the path being the trail of discovered planets.
I do think they had grander plans for the multiplayer aspect. I do suspect he was intentionally being vague because he felt like that sense of other people out there was an important atmospheric element, and describing exactly how the "multiplayer" (downloading names) worked would spoil that. I do think he probably should have known that people would take this vagueness to mean that you will literally be flying alongside each other. That's what I thought for a while as well, despite knowing how problematic that would be from a technical standpoint.
I don't think any of that crosses the line into trying to make people think this was going to be multiplayer in the MMO sense.
I think this boils down to 1) whether multiplayer just means the actions of other players can impact your game and 2) if you're willing to believe that Sean Murray is not 100% a dick.
Interesting. Now I wonder if this is related to the bug where sometimes waypoints don't lead to anything at all.