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To Buy or to Lease a Nissan Leaf
Aioua
Ora OccidensOra OptimaRegistered User regular
Ora OccidensOra OptimaRegistered User regular
So, I've been without a car for a year now. My old POS broke down and it wasn't worth the money to fix it. I took the money I was spending on gas and insurance and used it to to pay off all my remaining debt. (Yay!) Also, since then I've gotten a much nicer job, with that much nicer paycheck. I live in a suburb of Seattle (Kirkland) and not having a car is pretty much the worst. Anyone who's lived here knows our bus system is comprehensive, but terribly slow.
Why a Leaf? A few reasons. I hate combustion engines. They've given me nothing but grief, my whole life. I hate all the fiddly little maintenance required, the thousand things that can go wrong. Not that EVs are impervious, but still. I rarely need to go anywhere outside of a Leaf's driving range. EVs also have that sweet SCIENCE! vibe. Not paying for gas is nice. You're not going to change my mind on this point.
So the question, should I lease or buy it? Around the net there's a lot of talk how--despite the common wisdom--it's a better idea to lease an EV in this early stage of their development. After my rent/utilities/insurance/other bills/food budget I have a bit over $1400 a month in income. Pros and cons that I can see:
Lease Pro:
$7500 credit. I don't pay enough in taxes to get the entire credit, if I were to buy.
Much lower monthly cost, around $300. The $7500 federal tax credit is claimed by the leasing co, who spreads it across the length of the lease.
I still would be busing to work (which is convenient for me), so I won't hit the mileage cap.
If the battery goes to crap it's not my problem.
If they improve the technology for EVs I won't be stuck with a 1st gen POS with no resale value. (the early adopter problem)
Lease Con:
They might screw me over on 'wear and tear' charges.
If I do decide to buy it at the end of the lease I'll have paid out more than buying it from the beginning.
I've never done a lease, please tell me how else they get ya.
If I don't buy it out all that lease money is gone.
Buying Pro:
Get that sweet, sweet equity.
Can negotiate price.
They can only screw me while I'm in the dealership, no surprise fees at the end.
Does this look better on your credit? Mine's already pretty good anyway, around 800.
Buying Con:
Will probably cost about twice as much per month.
Have to do tax shenanigans to claim credit, and won't be able to get the full $7500
Depending on how EV technology progresses, there might not be much equity left in the thing anyway.
That's a lot of debt.
So, thoughts? Any leasing pitfalls I should take into mind?
Why a Leaf? A few reasons. I hate combustion engines. They've given me nothing but grief, my whole life. I hate all the fiddly little maintenance required, the thousand things that can go wrong. Not that EVs are impervious, but still. I rarely need to go anywhere outside of a Leaf's driving range. EVs also have that sweet SCIENCE! vibe. Not paying for gas is nice. You're not going to change my mind on this point.
So the question, should I lease or buy it? Around the net there's a lot of talk how--despite the common wisdom--it's a better idea to lease an EV in this early stage of their development. After my rent/utilities/insurance/other bills/food budget I have a bit over $1400 a month in income. Pros and cons that I can see:
Lease Pro:
$7500 credit. I don't pay enough in taxes to get the entire credit, if I were to buy.
Much lower monthly cost, around $300. The $7500 federal tax credit is claimed by the leasing co, who spreads it across the length of the lease.
I still would be busing to work (which is convenient for me), so I won't hit the mileage cap.
If the battery goes to crap it's not my problem.
If they improve the technology for EVs I won't be stuck with a 1st gen POS with no resale value. (the early adopter problem)
Lease Con:
They might screw me over on 'wear and tear' charges.
If I do decide to buy it at the end of the lease I'll have paid out more than buying it from the beginning.
I've never done a lease, please tell me how else they get ya.
If I don't buy it out all that lease money is gone.
Buying Pro:
Get that sweet, sweet equity.
Can negotiate price.
They can only screw me while I'm in the dealership, no surprise fees at the end.
Does this look better on your credit? Mine's already pretty good anyway, around 800.
Buying Con:
Will probably cost about twice as much per month.
Have to do tax shenanigans to claim credit, and won't be able to get the full $7500
Depending on how EV technology progresses, there might not be much equity left in the thing anyway.
That's a lot of debt.
So, thoughts? Any leasing pitfalls I should take into mind?
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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The resale value of a Leaf in 3-5 years is basically unknowable because of the rarity of the technology and the challenge of finding a buyer with similar feelings to your own, so you shouldn't gamble on that.
Just lease it.
Electric vehicles aren't 'less efficient' - they actually transfer power to the drive shaft much, much more efficiently than a combustion engine (go look for 'electric vehicle drag racer' on YouTube). The drawback is that a (current) battery isn't as energy dense as a tank of gasoline, so you have less energy overall; you have to stop & recharge more often than a person has to fill their tank (The Leaf's range is about 70~ miles, while the H3 Hummer - to use the vehicle in your avatar - has a range of 340~ miles).
You do end-up paying a lot for all of that extra energy density, too - 80 bucks a pop whenever you need to top-off that 23 gallon tank. So if you don't need to go 340 miles without a recharge / refill, you're basically just wasting money.
But yeah, otherwise agree: lease. Buying into a Leaf would be a pretty high risk investment at the moment. There will probably be a large expansion in the EV market in, say, the next 5~ years or so, and you don't want to be stuck with something that's incompatible with whatever the standards become.
Let the big company take all the downside risk.
The main point is that while you have a lower monthly cost at appearances, you will have to be very careful about mileage unless you wish to pay a higher price.
The only reasons that I've seen for people to lease a vehicle are tax reasons, or a desire to always have a new vehicle. You might come out ahead for tax reasons, might, if you don't make enough to benefit from the entirety of the credit.
Generally you want to buy a car because you come out ahead after the loan is done. 5 years in most cases. On the other hand if you want to always be driving a new car. Lease it. You come out ahead that way as well, but you'll always have a monthly payment.
You don't want to own it when the battery dies.
This is from an MSN article "5 Concerns about Electric Car batteries"
". Will This Thing Die on Me?
People don't like being guinea pigs, and many would-be EV owners are wondering if the large, pricey batteries that power electric cars are going to last. The bottom line: Nobody knows yet. Makers of plug-in hybrids and EVs tell us their batteries will last "the life of the car," but that is vague. Both the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt carry an 8-year, 100,000-mile warranty on their battery packs, which is encouraging."
This article says about 80% after 5 years.
http://www.plugincars.com/replacing-ev-batteries-your-costs-will-vary-122261.html
According to the same article battery replacement esitmates are 9-18K.
A lease will look pretty much the same as a financed auto on your credit. You won't have any more equity in the vehicle other than what you directly paid into it, so you'll be negative equity likely for 60%+ of the note term (unless you made an out-sized down payment). Other downside of lease is insurance concerns (lease agreement may require you to carry a higher level of coverage than you might decide to if you owned) and condition on return (you need to fix for all the dings and scratches and pay for new tires to return it otherwise get hit with penalties or pay the residual, if you owned you could opt to hold off on those til you wanted to deal with them). Upsides of leasing have already been shared.
You have a use case suited to a moped and are deciding between a Harley and a BMW.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
like, your primary assumption for buying pros is just wrong
the full on EV market is extremely immature and to this point most of the market has been in luxury vehicles which will hold value a tiny bit at least
The Leaf is basically an economy EV and it is built on technology that is being endlessly refined. Two years from now it will be looked at as absurdly primitive and woefully inadequate compared to 2016's EV's
and you can negotiate price for leases, trust me. you give them a number and they'll make it work.
or better yet don't get a Leaf, but it sounds like you're already sold on that
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
The mileage caps are around 12k a year. That's actually right around what I drive in a given year. It's a decent average. If he knows he's going to drive less than average that is actually a point in favor of the lease.
At this point we have no indication he has financial problems, just the opposite really. Not cool to be telling him he shouldn't be spending his money. I shouldn't spend so much time fucking around on the internet but it'd be rude for me to suggest the same of you without some context.
it would be interesting to see if that's even physically possible based on the range and the time it takes to charge
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
For a conventional vehicle I'd totally agree, but the EV market is extremely young - it's very unlikely that the Leaf is going to maintain equity as the market matures & new technology emerges. Depending on who gets what share of the market, it might even be the case that proprietary charging stations set-up by select vehicle companies dominate the space, and anyone with an EV not built by that manufacturer has much more limited range.
It's also worth noting that the Leaf (and every other current-gen EV, like the Tesla vehicles) still uses a Lithium battery. There are some extremely Big Deal developments happening right now in energy storage, and when some of the liquid metal / salt batteries reach full production, you don't want to have poured money into an expensive & inferior product.
Well, maybe if you destroy the battery with DC fast chargers. :rotate:
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Go forth and lease one. Enjoy!
Having said that, it depends how you use cars... if you want to sell it in 5 years to get a new car then that's a concern, if you're going to own it 15 years and drive it into the ground then who cares whether it holds value.
He came in here asking for advice and 'Neither' is valid advice. ex: Should I invest in BitCoins or Litecoins?
Buying or leasing a new car for occasional driving is a waste of money, because the high depreciation on it sucks double hard if you are getting gonged for 1 weeks worth of depreciation per use, vs the more normal 1 day per use. Same thing with insurance costs. EVs are especially bad because you are starting with a more expensive vehicle(more insurance/depreciation), and not realizing that much savings in gas if you aren't burning 50 miles worth to work and back 5 days a week.
It's his money, he can spend it on what ever he wants. But given the limited use he has planned for it, Id suggest: taking the down payment/lease fees, buying a 4 year old civic for $~10k, paying it off in a year or 2, and having a car that will run for another 10 years+ free and clear. Take the 15k saved and go waste it on something more fun.
Full disclosure: I don't follow my own advice. Since I went and bought this not 3 days ago.
Although it does qualify as more fun.
And having a car to conveniently tool around in isn't about a wise investment of money but just enjoying something nice.
If you're debating a lease or a loan, you can't afford it. This is why so many people are unable to really improve their financial situations - they waste money.
Buying a Nissan Leaf is pointless - it's not even like it's some Camaro or Challenger or something you can buy for the awesome fun factor to justify the waste of money, the Leaf is just an ugly EV that has nothing redeeming except fuel savings - which means you'd have to weigh the cost of the vehicle vs. the amount of miles you drive and see how much fuel savings you'd really get with the car etc and generally you won't come out much ahead than if you'd bought most any other new vehicle.
My friend has a Leaf. I'm not saying it's a bad car. I drive a Prius. I don't hate fuel efficient vehicles, but I got my Prius used for $9k with 100k miles on it and didn't get locked into a loan of any kind.
I know you said no one can change your mind, but you might want to open up the options a little bit. This is a horrible financial decision and a huge waste of money - you're free to buy it anyway as most people (myself included, yes!) have made plenty of awful financial decisions for one reason or another, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a bad choice.
Get a reliable used vehicle or if you're going to blow that kind of money and you don't drive much anyway, at least get something fun
Aioua lays out in the OP that the Leaf, to him, is just as fucking cool as a Challenger is to a gearhead. For pretty much exactly the same reason: They find the underlying technology cool!
You're perfectly free to like what you like and think what I like is stupid. You can be a Cubs fan, go ahead. If you're a Cubs fan and go into a Yankees bar and tell everybody how stupid they are for liking the Cubs you're being a goose. If instead it's just a friend asking you to explain how season tickets work they're you're being a super duper goose if you lay into him for wanting them for the wrong team.
Things have different utility to different people. When I lived in Salt Lake, I was looking at an EV just because they could take the carpool lanes and I could give a nice one finger salute to traffic. In this case, an EV was way more "fun" than a camaro that would sit in stop and go traffic.
I host a podcast about movies.
Negotiate that contract hard. Cross out and modify shit you don't like. Make sure you're not on the hook for general car maintenance or battery replacement (worse than replacing an engine).
If I was wealthy, I'd maybe consider buying, but that's a lot of maintenance I wouldn't want. Car maintenance sucks, but new technology and one that has extremely high upkeep costs sucks even worse.
$1,500 for a new transmission and $3,000 for a new engine is nothing compared to $15,000 replacement battery. Once you hit 5 years or 60k miles (I think), that's another ~$100 a month in battery replacement warranty costs.
Sure but if the tickets are non transferable, and they can only make it to a handful of the 82 games a year...season tickets are not a great purchase. The team is irrelevant.
To keep the baseball analogy going. He's a Cubs fan living in NY. He wants to buy Yankees season tickets so he can watch the Cubs play the Yankees the 2 games a year they are there. The argument isn't Cubs vs Yankees it's season tickets vs StubHubing. That fact that they are Yankees season tickets just makes the dollar figures worse.
@Bowen, I've never heard of someone negotiating maintenance costs out of a lease. That seems unpossible. Other than that I won't be paying for battery replacement or any crazy crap like that.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
The real fight would be to get them to throw in the $2000 quick charger for your home if you own it.
Ah, you're correct. Thanks!
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
This is amazing. This post is amazing. I'm sorry to drag this off track, but this needs to be pointed out.
The PA forums are NOTORIOUSLY filled to the brim with terrible car analogies where we're discussing anything that isn't a car, and make a "buying a car" metaphor.
In this case, we have a terrible non-car analogy for something that is literally buying a car, completely subverting expectations.
Regarding negotiating the lease: Of course you can. Way more stuff is negotiable than most people think.
You can negotiate anything in the lease. Act like you know what you're doing. Lawyers are notorious for this. Cross something out, both of you initial it (and get a copy of it right then and there). Make sure they print and sign their name at the end.
"Oh we'll throw in the $2000 charging station."
Jot something like "Dealer agrees to provide home charging station for vehicle at no additional cost" down at the end of the contract, both of you initial it.
But yeah, typically leases only make you cover minor maintenance like oil changes. Guess what electric cars don't have. Big ticket items like new brakes or a new battery and "engine" should be included in it and your warranty, but always double check that.
It's not like agreements are static, they're heavily not in your favor. If you don't like something, do the 1000 questions on that shit. If you're okay with it, sign it, if not, don't or modify it.
But I'm a dick when it comes to my money... so there's that?
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
give them the number you want to pay and if they can't make it work, tell them you'll go across town to find out if they can make it work
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
Unless you are totally unreasonable, Jasc is right on the money.
Taking an approach that the OP gets to define the possible acceptable answers is really a garbage-in, garbage-out approach. If somebody asks "should I kill myself with rope or a plastic bag", you don't honor the premises of the question, you tell them what they should do, which is seek psychiatric care. Financial questions aren't as significant, but the same basic approach should make sense.
EDIT: okay maybe a little harsh. I'm just saying. It's not like I'm dropping it all on bitcoin.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Actually at this point there would be a post with some hotlines and a locked thread because somewhere along the way someone realized that the forums do not count as professional help, which is what would be called for and the only actual responsible course of action.
This is not that situation. This is something the OP can afford to do and it is HIS FUCKING MONEY, if he wants to know if he should piss on it or light it on fire that WOULD be his business if destroying it was not illegal, but since it is illegal the correct answer would be piss on it since you can't advise people to do things that are illegal in H/A.
If he is asking what to do with the money, you can answer whatever you want. You can say "hey, instead of pissing on that money, why don't you donate it to orphans in Sudan?" If he did not have the money to choose between the two options presented, telling him to do one of them would be bad advice. But he is not asking what to do, he is asking which to do, and he DOES have the money, so people can fucking well answer the damn question. If you don't like that, take your concern to PMs where I will explain this again for you, but it is not actually up for debate here.