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[Tales of] Your Mom - Best Dog Is Back

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Posts

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    So, just to break this down...
    Estelle is in a hurry because the issue is assassins. Like the one that jumps you. And is very explicit about this, so I'm not sure how you missed it. But "warn friend assassins are after him" is a decent opening plot hook to get people to go from point A to point B, especially since you're tacking on "also go fetch very valuable stolen item".

    The repair isn't to the core, it's to the control stuff around it. The cores are the valuable part. Also mentioned in game. And since the Empire manages the things, the nobles run the show, and are SUPER classist, replacing the core is at the bottom of the priority list, behind such things as "take a nap" and "take another nap".

    As for Aspio... you're suggesting a behavior pattern that is, all things considered, not normal. Doubly so when the character doing the questioning is already impulsive. And a name and description like that would be plenty for cops to start questioning someone in real life (and especially when everyone's reaction to the name is a particular individual), it's hardly unreasonable for him to jump to conclusions there.

    At the point I just got to this morning, we got back to Halure.
    We just missed Flynn again, but hey, he left us a message! So he knows we're tracking him down. And the message almost literally said "watch out for assassins."

    - We keep establishing Flynn is the best and most noble defender of all the knights, the goodest boy.

    - He knows Estelle is a sheltered noble (almost certainly a princess or queen), probably one of the people he is explicitly charged to protect as a knight, who is now out in the dangerous world trying to track him down.

    Rather than wait for her or actively try to find her to warn her about assassins, the same thing we're trying to warn him about, this paladin thinks it's appropriate to just leave a message?

    We could've done that! We knew he was planning on returning to Halure! If all Estelle wants is to tell him "assassins are after you," she could've done the exact same thing he just did.

    As far as our goals...I know our mission is ostensibly to tell Flynn he's in danger. But that's still a terrible hook when you're going to be chasing him for 7+ hours of gameplay, considering we learned in that initial scene that the "assassins" are weirdos and a total joke and Flynn can probably take care of himself. They never even reinforce why we're tracking him down, at every town it's just..."oh he's not here? Oh no, we should keep going." Again if it were me, I would start exploring other options and/or ask Estelle to lay out the full message we're relaying here. Because I doubt it's just "your life is in danger." If we catch up to him and she literally walks up to him and says "watch out for assassins! ...Ok Yuri, we can go home now," I would be pissed. There's more to it than that and if the game would just tell me, maybe I'd feel stronger motivation.

    Again, compare this to other Tales games. Going on a quest to save the world, visiting shrines to help Colette ascend as an avatar of good, not exactly something you could just leave a note somewhere to solve. Or teleported deep into enemy territory and you have to get back home, not something you could just stop doing at any time.

    With Aspio, I'm suggesting behavior that's not normal? Asking people questions isn't normal? Interrogating someone you think is a thief isn't normal? This is just baffling.

    "The character is impulsive" is an excuse for bad writing. Anyone can always say this about bad decisions made by characters and it's never acceptable. Consider an extreme example, maybe Rita tells Yuri that actually Estelle is the thief so he whirls around and stabs her immediately. "This scene is meant to demonstrate Yuri's impulsive nature," right?

    I mean I've spent 7 hours playing but as far as I can tell with rest stops and all, many days have passed. No matter how impulsive you are, you don't spend days wandering the world with someone and not ask a couple basic questions about them.

    We went from not having a proper conversation during the accusation to not having a proper clearing-of-her-name at the end of the ruins. They're just like "oh I'm glad it turned out she wasn't thief" and I'm sitting here thinking...why have we still not discussed any aspect of this theft? Was. Rita. Ever. In. Zaphias. This takes seconds to ask. If she wasn't, why did Yuri know the name "Mordio" at all? What is even happening?

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  • Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    If you want a Tales where the characters react like you want in those spoilers, I cannot recommend Berseria enough to you.

    I just recommend Berseria in general. Such a dang good game. Probably second favorite JRPG behind only Persona 5.

    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
  • delf4delf4 Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    So, just to break this down...
    Estelle is in a hurry because the issue is assassins. Like the one that jumps you. And is very explicit about this, so I'm not sure how you missed it. But "warn friend assassins are after him" is a decent opening plot hook to get people to go from point A to point B, especially since you're tacking on "also go fetch very valuable stolen item".

    The repair isn't to the core, it's to the control stuff around it. The cores are the valuable part. Also mentioned in game. And since the Empire manages the things, the nobles run the show, and are SUPER classist, replacing the core is at the bottom of the priority list, behind such things as "take a nap" and "take another nap".

    As for Aspio... you're suggesting a behavior pattern that is, all things considered, not normal. Doubly so when the character doing the questioning is already impulsive. And a name and description like that would be plenty for cops to start questioning someone in real life (and especially when everyone's reaction to the name is a particular individual), it's hardly unreasonable for him to jump to conclusions there.

    At the point I just got to this morning, we got back to Halure.
    We just missed Flynn again, but hey, he left us a message! So he knows we're tracking him down. And the message almost literally said "watch out for assassins."

    - We keep establishing Flynn is the best and most noble defender of all the knights, the goodest boy.

    - He knows Estelle is a sheltered noble (almost certainly a princess or queen), probably one of the people he is explicitly charged to protect as a knight, who is now out in the dangerous world trying to track him down.

    Rather than wait for her or actively try to find her to warn her about assassins, the same thing we're trying to warn him about, this paladin thinks it's appropriate to just leave a message?

    We could've done that! We knew he was planning on returning to Halure! If all Estelle wants is to tell him "assassins are after you," she could've done the exact same thing he just did.

    As far as our goals...I know our mission is ostensibly to tell Flynn he's in danger. But that's still a terrible hook when you're going to be chasing him for 7+ hours of gameplay, considering we learned in that initial scene that the "assassins" are weirdos and a total joke and Flynn can probably take care of himself. They never even reinforce why we're tracking him down, at every town it's just..."oh he's not here? Oh no, we should keep going." Again if it were me, I would start exploring other options and/or ask Estelle to lay out the full message we're relaying here. Because I doubt it's just "your life is in danger." If we catch up to him and she literally walks up to him and says "watch out for assassins! ...Ok Yuri, we can go home now," I would be pissed. There's more to it than that and if the game would just tell me, maybe I'd feel stronger motivation.

    Again, compare this to other Tales games. Going on a quest to save the world, visiting shrines to help Colette ascend as an avatar of good, not exactly something you could just leave a note somewhere to solve. Or teleported deep into enemy territory and you have to get back home, not something you could just stop doing at any time.

    With Aspio, I'm suggesting behavior that's not normal? Asking people questions isn't normal? Interrogating someone you think is a thief isn't normal? This is just baffling.

    "The character is impulsive" is an excuse for bad writing. Anyone can always say this about bad decisions made by characters and it's never acceptable. Consider an extreme example, maybe Rita tells Yuri that actually Estelle is the thief so he whirls around and stabs her immediately. "This scene is meant to demonstrate Yuri's impulsive nature," right?

    I mean I've spent 7 hours playing but as far as I can tell with rest stops and all, many days have passed. No matter how impulsive you are, you don't spend days wandering the world with someone and not ask a couple basic questions about them.

    We went from not having a proper conversation during the accusation to not having a proper clearing-of-her-name at the end of the ruins. They're just like "oh I'm glad it turned out she wasn't thief" and I'm sitting here thinking...why have we still not discussed any aspect of this theft? Was. Rita. Ever. In. Zaphias. This takes seconds to ask. If she wasn't, why did Yuri know the name "Mordio" at all? What is even happening?

    Without getting to spoilery, I will say that some of these questions do get answered later and why they didn't get asked now sort of make sense.

    Vesperia is probably my favorite Tales game but I will freely admit its not without problems. One thing I've always liked though, is up until some of the characters in Berseria I've always felt like Yuri has been one of the more practical JRPG protagonists. I like his more cynical view on the world and that just because you are all happy and nice doesn't mean that bad people are just going to become good.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    The characters are good, I don't have complaints about the voice acting or characterization. Other than them not bringing back Troy Baker for the newer voiced scenes so you get a goof pretending to be Troy. :P

    But other than Karol no one is annoying just for the sake of "it's a kawaii character quirk~". Yuri and Estelle feel like real people. They are just constrained by anime writing tropes to be stupid and not ask questions when the plot compels them to.

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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    The characters are good, I don't have complaints about the voice acting or characterization. Other than them not bringing back Troy Baker for the newer voiced scenes so you get a goof pretending to be Troy. :P

    But other than Karol no one is annoying just for the sake of "it's a kawaii character quirk~". Yuri and Estelle feel like real people. They are just constrained by anime writing tropes to be stupid and not ask questions when the plot compels them to.

    I feel like this swings both ways. Like, in some cases, the characters themselves know the answers but the player doesn't. So, if they DO ask those questions, they have to write in a reason why they forgot common knowledge they would have. I feel like that's the reason why a lot of games in general and JRPGs specifically have an early character who is some sort of outsider - they're the player stand-in when exposition is required.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Cruor wrote: »
    The characters are good, I don't have complaints about the voice acting or characterization. Other than them not bringing back Troy Baker for the newer voiced scenes so you get a goof pretending to be Troy. :P

    But other than Karol no one is annoying just for the sake of "it's a kawaii character quirk~". Yuri and Estelle feel like real people. They are just constrained by anime writing tropes to be stupid and not ask questions when the plot compels them to.

    I feel like this swings both ways. Like, in some cases, the characters themselves know the answers but the player doesn't. So, if they DO ask those questions, they have to write in a reason why they forgot common knowledge they would have. I feel like that's the reason why a lot of games in general and JRPGs specifically have an early character who is some sort of outsider - they're the player stand-in when exposition is required.

    Yeah, that's why Karol is a young kid with some tunnel vision on being a monster hunter and Estelle only has what she's read in books.

    It worked better in Tales of the Abyss with Luke being a completely oblivious sheltered noble in a land he wasn't familiar with.

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  • TDawgTDawg Registered User regular
    This is probably mostly nostalgia, but I loved it in Tales of Symphonia, since its all presented as Lloyd just being a bad student, and his teacher AND the top student in his class are there to chide him about it the entire way. Turned what could have just been obnoxious exposition into fun character banter.

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  • ArteenArteen Adept ValeRegistered User regular
    You don't find Yuri's grand quest to repair a leaky fountain to be compelling? :P

    The story should pick up soon once you get through Ehmead Hill and reach Capua Nor.

    PolaritieTDawg
  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    Finally got some time to play vesperia remaster with the friend I'll be cooping through the game with and it's pure nostalgia.

    The combat is clunky as heck to start with, and the story is kind of meandering early. But we're just enjoying the hell out of spending time with the game again. And it is pretty fun once you get used to the engine limitations compared to later games. The production values of Vesperia compared to modern tales games shines through in most things, it does a much better job of feeling like a world.

    ArteenskeldareTDawg
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    I'd love it if Tales of Vesperia had the combat system updated to what was used in Tales of Xillia 2, since the Xillia 2 system feels a lot like an evolution of Vesperia's system.

    cptrugged
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    I haven't kept up on Tales at all so I did some googling to look at more recent games.

    My god they should've called it Tales of Brassieria.

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  • SwashbucklerXXSwashbucklerXX Swashbucklin' Canuck Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    I haven't kept up on Tales at all so I did some googling to look at more recent games.

    My god they should've called it Tales of Brassieria.

    Yeah, Velvet's outfit is ridiculous, but her characterization is really good. I just had her wear other things the entire time. Their dumb excuse is that she picked up those rags and cares so little about how she looks that she never replaced them.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    I haven't kept up on Tales at all so I did some googling to look at more recent games.

    My god they should've called it Tales of Brassieria.

    Yeah, Velvet's outfit is ridiculous, but her characterization is really good. I just had her wear other things the entire time.

    Thankfully, you can change her outfit almost immediately to something reasonable.

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  • Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Velvet's pretty much a vortex of rage and claws, the shredded outfit seemed fitting to me. I mean, I don't deny it was shameless titillation or whatever but it did strike me as thematically appropriate too.

    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
  • ArteenArteen Adept ValeRegistered User regular
    Berseria is nice enough to give you multiple outfit options immediately after the prologue. I used her normal person outfit the whole time.

  • SwashbucklerXXSwashbucklerXX Swashbucklin' Canuck Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Velvet's pretty much a vortex of rage and claws, the shredded outfit seemed fitting to me. I mean, I don't deny it was shameless titillation or whatever but it did strike me as thematically appropriate too.

    Most of it, sure... but as somebody who possesses them, believe me when I say that if you're running around the battlefield shanking fools, it'd be awfully uncomfortable to have your boobs hanging out like that, boinging around and slapping against your ribcage.

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  • Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Oh it's definitely not practical at all. Pretty much how I'd imagine the clothes of a knife tornado looking, though.

    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    I mean she could have even kept the shredded outfit if her assets were more normal-sized.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Wow, Vesperia...it keeps finding new ways to annoy me. They have absolutely no regard for the player's ability to have a critical thought. Evil magistrate Ragou...
    This guy does a bunch of horrible stuff including feeding his citizens to monsters in his basement and forcing it to rain all the time with blastia experiments for some reason. And won't let anyone sail or leave the port or he will open fire on them. Like the most blatantly evil stuff possible and frankly not profitable or anything that benefits him in any way other than having high taxes.

    We break into his mansion and put a stop to this stuff and/or bring it to light, he tries to escape on his ship, it burns and sinks but he manages to escape on a lifeboat.

    Our party arrives at the twin port town nearby along with the paladin-ish imperial knights led by Flynn, and discover Ragou in the inn.

    He says "what, I've never met you people before, someone has been impersonating me recently, and who are you going to believe knights, me or these ruffians?" Flynn hangs his head and lets Ragou walk free out of the inn.

    This is possibly the fucking dumbest thing I've ever seen in a game.

    Like I'm picturing anyone in real life trying to use this as an excuse. Any big name guilty person saying "someone was impersonating me" with zero evidence of this and a heap of evidence of bad things happening in their residence, to the face of an honorable officer who isn't on the take, and that's somehow enough.

    No one asks how long this has been going on. No one asks where the real Ragou was all this time. No one asks for evidence someone was impersonating him and where that person is now. No one asks for a corroborating story from those close to him.

    His weather controlling blastia machine is wrecked, but you can probably tell what it was being used for. His mansion still stands and his basement is still full of monsters, bones, blood and worse. His citizens can all back up the taxation, the firing on ships, how sometimes people disappear, a family had their son kidnapped, the son can give his story. All this was done by an impostor all along? And Flynn is supposed to be enough of a moron to accept this?

    Doesn't all this at least call into question his ability to rule, if someone can just take his place like that?

    If this excuse works, then why can't Yuri immediately turn and say "I want all the wanted posters of me taken down and my name cleared, that was all done by an impostor too."

    And on top of all this, the prospective next emperor was on Ragou's ship as he was escaping, and we saved his life. He is in the same room when Ragou pulls this stunt. And he doesn't speak up and say "no no, Ragou was actually doing all this stuff. Who are you going to believe, your next emperor or a lowly magistrate?"

    Why was he there? Was he being kidnapped? Was he tied up on the ship? Did he have amnesia? Why is no one asking any questions about the fact the next emperor was Ragou's prisoner?

    These are not even nitpicks. This one short scene glossed over like 500 significant questions and ways to properly resolve the situation.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Wow, Vesperia...it keeps finding new ways to annoy me. They have absolutely no regard for the player's ability to have a critical thought. Evil magistrate Ragou...
    This guy does a bunch of horrible stuff including feeding his citizens to monsters in his basement and forcing it to rain all the time with blastia experiments for some reason. And won't let anyone sail or leave the port or he will open fire on them. Like the most blatantly evil stuff possible and frankly not profitable or anything that benefits him in any way other than having high taxes.

    We break into his mansion and put a stop to this stuff and/or bring it to light, he tries to escape on his ship, it burns and sinks but he manages to escape on a lifeboat.

    Our party arrives at the twin port town nearby along with the paladin-ish imperial knights led by Flynn, and discover Ragou in the inn.

    He says "what, I've never met you people before, someone has been impersonating me recently, and who are you going to believe knights, me or these ruffians?" Flynn hangs his head and lets Ragou walk free out of the inn.

    This is possibly the fucking dumbest thing I've ever seen in a game.

    Like I'm picturing anyone in real life trying to use this as an excuse. Any big name guilty person saying "someone was impersonating me" with zero evidence of this and a heap of evidence of bad things happening in their residence, to the face of an honorable officer who isn't on the take, and that's somehow enough.

    No one asks how long this has been going on. No one asks where the real Ragou was all this time. No one asks for evidence someone was impersonating him and where that person is now. No one asks for a corroborating story from those close to him.

    His weather controlling blastia machine is wrecked, but you can probably tell what it was being used for. His mansion still stands and his basement is still full of monsters, bones, blood and worse. His citizens can all back up the taxation, the firing on ships, how sometimes people disappear, a family had their son kidnapped, the son can give his story. All this was done by an impostor all along? And Flynn is supposed to be enough of a moron to accept this?

    Doesn't all this at least call into question his ability to rule, if someone can just take his place like that?

    If this excuse works, then why can't Yuri immediately turn and say "I want all the wanted posters of me taken down and my name cleared, that was all done by an impostor too."

    And on top of all this, the prospective next emperor was on Ragou's ship as he was escaping, and we saved his life. He is in the same room when Ragou pulls this stunt. And he doesn't speak up and say "no no, Ragou was actually doing all this stuff. Who are you going to believe, your next emperor or a lowly magistrate?"

    Why was he there? Was he being kidnapped? Was he tied up on the ship? Did he have amnesia? Why is no one asking any questions about the fact the next emperor was Ragou's prisoner?

    These are not even nitpicks. This one short scene glossed over like 500 significant questions and ways to properly resolve the situation.

    This gets resolved a bit later in the game, in a way that probably upset a lot of people, but I am completely fine with.
    He dodges any major consequences from the Empire, so Yuri just straight up kills him in the dead of night.

    TDawg
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Wow, Vesperia...it keeps finding new ways to annoy me. They have absolutely no regard for the player's ability to have a critical thought. Evil magistrate Ragou...
    This guy does a bunch of horrible stuff including feeding his citizens to monsters in his basement and forcing it to rain all the time with blastia experiments for some reason. And won't let anyone sail or leave the port or he will open fire on them. Like the most blatantly evil stuff possible and frankly not profitable or anything that benefits him in any way other than having high taxes.

    We break into his mansion and put a stop to this stuff and/or bring it to light, he tries to escape on his ship, it burns and sinks but he manages to escape on a lifeboat.

    Our party arrives at the twin port town nearby along with the paladin-ish imperial knights led by Flynn, and discover Ragou in the inn.

    He says "what, I've never met you people before, someone has been impersonating me recently, and who are you going to believe knights, me or these ruffians?" Flynn hangs his head and lets Ragou walk free out of the inn.

    This is possibly the fucking dumbest thing I've ever seen in a game.

    Like I'm picturing anyone in real life trying to use this as an excuse. Any big name guilty person saying "someone was impersonating me" with zero evidence of this and a heap of evidence of bad things happening in their residence, to the face of an honorable officer who isn't on the take, and that's somehow enough.

    No one asks how long this has been going on. No one asks where the real Ragou was all this time. No one asks for evidence someone was impersonating him and where that person is now. No one asks for a corroborating story from those close to him.

    His weather controlling blastia machine is wrecked, but you can probably tell what it was being used for. His mansion still stands and his basement is still full of monsters, bones, blood and worse. His citizens can all back up the taxation, the firing on ships, how sometimes people disappear, a family had their son kidnapped, the son can give his story. All this was done by an impostor all along? And Flynn is supposed to be enough of a moron to accept this?

    Doesn't all this at least call into question his ability to rule, if someone can just take his place like that?

    If this excuse works, then why can't Yuri immediately turn and say "I want all the wanted posters of me taken down and my name cleared, that was all done by an impostor too."

    And on top of all this, the prospective next emperor was on Ragou's ship as he was escaping, and we saved his life. He is in the same room when Ragou pulls this stunt. And he doesn't speak up and say "no no, Ragou was actually doing all this stuff. Who are you going to believe, your next emperor or a lowly magistrate?"

    Why was he there? Was he being kidnapped? Was he tied up on the ship? Did he have amnesia? Why is no one asking any questions about the fact the next emperor was Ragou's prisoner?

    These are not even nitpicks. This one short scene glossed over like 500 significant questions and ways to properly resolve the situation.

    This gets resolved a bit later in the game, in a way that probably upset a lot of people, but I am completely fine with.
    He dodges any major consequences from the Empire, so Yuri just straight up kills him in the dead of night.

    That sounds fine, but I really don't see any excuse for what they did here. It seems like they wrote the story straight through in one pass without bothering to think of reasonable objections to anything going on. There are a number of ways they could've ended up with the same result without wrecking verisimilitude. Oh well...

    Also I'm leaving Heliord now and more and more it feels like a Dungeons and Dragons game with the party desperately trying to find reasons to stay with each other, and the DM (not really wanting to split them) says "alright that's just good enough for me."

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited January 20
    Javen wrote: »
    Wow, Vesperia...it keeps finding new ways to annoy me. They have absolutely no regard for the player's ability to have a critical thought. Evil magistrate Ragou...
    This guy does a bunch of horrible stuff including feeding his citizens to monsters in his basement and forcing it to rain all the time with blastia experiments for some reason. And won't let anyone sail or leave the port or he will open fire on them. Like the most blatantly evil stuff possible and frankly not profitable or anything that benefits him in any way other than having high taxes.

    We break into his mansion and put a stop to this stuff and/or bring it to light, he tries to escape on his ship, it burns and sinks but he manages to escape on a lifeboat.

    Our party arrives at the twin port town nearby along with the paladin-ish imperial knights led by Flynn, and discover Ragou in the inn.

    He says "what, I've never met you people before, someone has been impersonating me recently, and who are you going to believe knights, me or these ruffians?" Flynn hangs his head and lets Ragou walk free out of the inn.

    This is possibly the fucking dumbest thing I've ever seen in a game.

    Like I'm picturing anyone in real life trying to use this as an excuse. Any big name guilty person saying "someone was impersonating me" with zero evidence of this and a heap of evidence of bad things happening in their residence, to the face of an honorable officer who isn't on the take, and that's somehow enough.

    No one asks how long this has been going on. No one asks where the real Ragou was all this time. No one asks for evidence someone was impersonating him and where that person is now. No one asks for a corroborating story from those close to him.

    His weather controlling blastia machine is wrecked, but you can probably tell what it was being used for. His mansion still stands and his basement is still full of monsters, bones, blood and worse. His citizens can all back up the taxation, the firing on ships, how sometimes people disappear, a family had their son kidnapped, the son can give his story. All this was done by an impostor all along? And Flynn is supposed to be enough of a moron to accept this?

    Doesn't all this at least call into question his ability to rule, if someone can just take his place like that?

    If this excuse works, then why can't Yuri immediately turn and say "I want all the wanted posters of me taken down and my name cleared, that was all done by an impostor too."

    And on top of all this, the prospective next emperor was on Ragou's ship as he was escaping, and we saved his life. He is in the same room when Ragou pulls this stunt. And he doesn't speak up and say "no no, Ragou was actually doing all this stuff. Who are you going to believe, your next emperor or a lowly magistrate?"

    Why was he there? Was he being kidnapped? Was he tied up on the ship? Did he have amnesia? Why is no one asking any questions about the fact the next emperor was Ragou's prisoner?

    These are not even nitpicks. This one short scene glossed over like 500 significant questions and ways to properly resolve the situation.

    This gets resolved a bit later in the game, in a way that probably upset a lot of people, but I am completely fine with.
    He dodges any major consequences from the Empire, so Yuri just straight up kills him in the dead of night.

    That sounds fine, but I really don't see any excuse for what they did here. It seems like they wrote the story straight through in one pass without bothering to think of reasonable objections to anything going on. There are a number of ways they could've ended up with the same result without wrecking verisimilitude. Oh well...

    Also I'm leaving Heliord now and more and more it feels like a Dungeons and Dragons game with the party desperately trying to find reasons to stay with each other, and the DM (not really wanting to split them) says "alright that's just good enough for me."
    I'm not done playing through the game yet, but a huge theme in the early game seems to be 'just because you're right, doesn't mean shit if the system is stacked against you.' with the party's interactions with Ragou meant to quantify exactly how much the system is stacked against pretty much everyone except the nobility and the elite whose views align with theirs.

    Yes, we're meant to find his 'do I know you?' response to be ridiculous and enraging, but how is that any different than the 'I don't recall' that happens so often in real life to avoid consequences, and why a rich and powerful person can do that, but if you or I tried, we'd get laughed at all the way to our jail cell?

    EDIT: As far as the Ioder part, I do find that odd, but I just assumed that was the first allusion to Ioder being a bad guy.

    Javen on
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  • ArteenArteen Adept ValeRegistered User regular
    Speaking of cooking...
    BJC9n83.png

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    You shut up and take that TP

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited January 21
    Javen wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    Wow, Vesperia...it keeps finding new ways to annoy me. They have absolutely no regard for the player's ability to have a critical thought. Evil magistrate Ragou...
    This guy does a bunch of horrible stuff including feeding his citizens to monsters in his basement and forcing it to rain all the time with blastia experiments for some reason. And won't let anyone sail or leave the port or he will open fire on them. Like the most blatantly evil stuff possible and frankly not profitable or anything that benefits him in any way other than having high taxes.

    We break into his mansion and put a stop to this stuff and/or bring it to light, he tries to escape on his ship, it burns and sinks but he manages to escape on a lifeboat.

    Our party arrives at the twin port town nearby along with the paladin-ish imperial knights led by Flynn, and discover Ragou in the inn.

    He says "what, I've never met you people before, someone has been impersonating me recently, and who are you going to believe knights, me or these ruffians?" Flynn hangs his head and lets Ragou walk free out of the inn.

    This is possibly the fucking dumbest thing I've ever seen in a game.

    Like I'm picturing anyone in real life trying to use this as an excuse. Any big name guilty person saying "someone was impersonating me" with zero evidence of this and a heap of evidence of bad things happening in their residence, to the face of an honorable officer who isn't on the take, and that's somehow enough.

    No one asks how long this has been going on. No one asks where the real Ragou was all this time. No one asks for evidence someone was impersonating him and where that person is now. No one asks for a corroborating story from those close to him.

    His weather controlling blastia machine is wrecked, but you can probably tell what it was being used for. His mansion still stands and his basement is still full of monsters, bones, blood and worse. His citizens can all back up the taxation, the firing on ships, how sometimes people disappear, a family had their son kidnapped, the son can give his story. All this was done by an impostor all along? And Flynn is supposed to be enough of a moron to accept this?

    Doesn't all this at least call into question his ability to rule, if someone can just take his place like that?

    If this excuse works, then why can't Yuri immediately turn and say "I want all the wanted posters of me taken down and my name cleared, that was all done by an impostor too."

    And on top of all this, the prospective next emperor was on Ragou's ship as he was escaping, and we saved his life. He is in the same room when Ragou pulls this stunt. And he doesn't speak up and say "no no, Ragou was actually doing all this stuff. Who are you going to believe, your next emperor or a lowly magistrate?"

    Why was he there? Was he being kidnapped? Was he tied up on the ship? Did he have amnesia? Why is no one asking any questions about the fact the next emperor was Ragou's prisoner?

    These are not even nitpicks. This one short scene glossed over like 500 significant questions and ways to properly resolve the situation.

    This gets resolved a bit later in the game, in a way that probably upset a lot of people, but I am completely fine with.
    He dodges any major consequences from the Empire, so Yuri just straight up kills him in the dead of night.

    That sounds fine, but I really don't see any excuse for what they did here. It seems like they wrote the story straight through in one pass without bothering to think of reasonable objections to anything going on. There are a number of ways they could've ended up with the same result without wrecking verisimilitude. Oh well...

    Also I'm leaving Heliord now and more and more it feels like a Dungeons and Dragons game with the party desperately trying to find reasons to stay with each other, and the DM (not really wanting to split them) says "alright that's just good enough for me."
    I'm not done playing through the game yet, but a huge theme in the early game seems to be 'just because you're right, doesn't mean shit if the system is stacked against you.' with the party's interactions with Ragou meant to quantify exactly how much the system is stacked against pretty much everyone except the nobility and the elite whose views align with theirs.

    Yes, we're meant to find his 'do I know you?' response to be ridiculous and enraging, but how is that any different than the 'I don't recall' that happens so often in real life to avoid consequences, and why a rich and powerful person can do that, but if you or I tried, we'd get laughed at all the way to our jail cell?

    EDIT: As far as the Ioder part, I do find that odd, but I just assumed that was the first allusion to Ioder being a bad guy.

    I don't have a problem with a villain escaping justice in a way that enrages or frustrates the audience. There are countless ways to write enraging miscarriages of justice, look at something like To Kill a Mockingbird or Chinatown. But I take issue when it's not written with any internal logic or consistency. That's what verisimilitude is.
    As far as your question how "I was impersonated" is any different from "I don't recall" used by the rich and powerful to avoid consequences? Because "I don't recall" is specifically used in cases where the law requires that you prove knowing/willful intent to do something wrong, and the person has carefully engineered events and crafted alibis around themselves to the point where they're untouchable. It doesn't work when hard evidence proves otherwise, like a basement full of corpses, hundreds of people who will testify to their crimes, etc. You can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone wasn't being impersonated, but you have almost no ways to prove whether or not someone recalls something.

    Alternate scenarios that would've worked:

    - Ragou's mansion burns to the ground in addition to the ship and therefore no evidence remains of his crimes. Flynn only got a glimpse of the foyer and all he has is the word of a few people that bad stuff was going on in the basement.

    - Ragou is detained a few days and you stay at the inn to pass the time while the knights get to the bottom of the situation. Flynn returns with bad news that they couldn't find any evidence of any crimes, which is because Barbos and his crew did a swift cleanup of the mansion and also bullied the townsfolk into silence.

    - Ragou gets Flynn pulled off the case, cop-style, and replaces him with Cumore (the corrupt knight), who conveniently finds nothing out of the ordinary.

    - Ragou says Barbos was responsible for everything, which is not only totally plausible but ALSO serves his later goals of driving a wedge between the empire and the guilds! The Blood Alliance muscled in and were holding him captive, and feeding citizens to monsters in the basement.

    - In all of these cases, Yuri/Estelle asks Ioder to back them up and he says he doesn't remember the last few days, he just remembers waking up tied up on a ship and calling for help.

    I think any of those (and more) would've worked far better than what ended up in the game.

    Anyway, I just recently was on a ship for the first time and the game has been coming together a bit better after act 1. More significant mysteries and things to pursue.

    Although I would like to say, so much of the cutscenes always seem to devolve into extremely technical discussion of who is doing what and where they are going. They feel the need to regularly explain in detail who is staying (usually everyone) and who is leaving (usually no one) and which party member has what goal and who is helping them on that goal, rather than the other way around.

    Yuri can't look for the McGuffin because he's busy looking for another McGuffin, so I guess technically Rita is looking for the McGuffin because she can do whatever she wants, and Yuri will merely help her look for the McGuffin rather than actively make it his main goal, because that's completely different somehow. They are all still going to the same place together. This conversation just took place on a ship.

    I swear if they would just take a minute to establish that everyone is now officially traveling together and will all collectively keep an eye out for their various quest targets, but first and foremost they will act as a group and no one is going off on their own, they would've saved like 30 minutes to an hour of dialogue thus far.

    UncleSporky on
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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    I'd love it if Tales of Vesperia had the combat system updated to what was used in Tales of Xillia 2, since the Xillia 2 system feels a lot like an evolution of Vesperia's system.

    here's me hoping this remaster does well enough that someone at Namco gets the bright idea to port Xillia 1 and 2 to PC. I still have my PS3, but I'd pay to play them on a more convenient setup. They have my favourite combat in the Tales series and will probably remain so as long as they keep up with this 3rd person thing that I just cannot play

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  • BasilBasil Registered User regular
    I'm sorry, lads, but Ace Combat has the best dog, now.

    Thought you should know.

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  • Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Basil wrote: »
    I'm sorry, lads, but Ace Combat has the best dog, now.

    Thought you should know.

    The best .jpg of a dog, at least.

    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
    Andy Joe
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    80% of all plot cutscenes are now:

    "I'm leaving the group to do this thing"
    "no wait, don't leave"
    "I have to"
    "well, decide for yourself"
    "ok, I'll stay with you guys, but other character, you don't have to keep going"
    "eh, it's on my way anyway and I can also think of other rationalizations"
    "yeah, I'll go too"

    This has been my life for like 10 hours.

    Like seriously it is always an empty threat now because this exact scenario has happened so many times that I know it never happens. Even when characters leave, they will be back before the next combat encounter.

    It's particularly toothless and tedious because Estelle is our only healer and I know from a game design standpoint they wouldn't deprive the player of that for very long.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited January 22
    80% of all plot cutscenes are now:

    "I'm leaving the group to do this thing"
    "no wait, don't leave"
    "I have to"
    "well, decide for yourself"
    "ok, I'll stay with you guys, but other character, you don't have to keep going"
    "eh, it's on my way anyway and I can also think of other rationalizations"
    "yeah, I'll go too"

    This has been my life for like 10 hours.

    Like seriously it is always an empty threat now because this exact scenario has happened so many times that I know it never happens. Even when characters leave, they will be back before the next combat encounter.

    It's particularly toothless and tedious because Estelle is our only healer and I know from a game design standpoint they wouldn't deprive the player of that for very long.

    Karol can apparently be a somewhat decent healer if you unlock the right altered artes for him - a 40% AoE heal isn't bad, but you'd probably need to manually control him for it.

    But yes, it gets tiring to watch those scenes, I'll admit. Especially the "everyone has left" for the sake of some cutscenes.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited January 22
    I was a little annoyed by the constant "so-and-so has left" "reunited with so-and-so" but I accept it as necessary. If someone is gone then it makes no sense that you would be able to modify their equipment/skills etc. in the menu, and they also can't silently remove people from the party because they don't want players entering into combat situations expecting to be backed up by a team that's not there. So it's better to get a notification than to not get one.

    But yeah.

    I think I get annoyed by these things because it just takes noticing it once and then it sticks out like a sore thumb, and you can see beyond the story being told to the writers leaning on tropes and fluff. I know actual things are happening in scenes and some moments are supposed to be pivotal character growth bits, or emotional bits, but once you have the realization that nearly all of it is glorified arguments about party composition then it gets to be grating.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited January 22
    I was a little annoyed by the constant "so-and-so has left" "reunited with so-and-so" but I accept it as necessary. If someone is gone then it makes no sense that you would be able to modify their equipment/skills etc. in the menu, and they also can't silently remove people from the party because they don't want players entering into combat situations expecting to be backed up by a team that's not there. So it's better to get a notification than to not get one.

    But yeah.

    I think I get annoyed by these things because it just takes noticing it once and then it sticks out like a sore thumb, and you can see beyond the story being told to the writers leaning on tropes and fluff. I know actual things are happening in scenes and some moments are supposed to be pivotal character growth bits, or emotional bits, but once you have the realization that nearly all of it is glorified arguments about party composition then it gets to be grating.

    Yeah, it makes sense mechanically, but most of it is resolved by just saying "no leaving town". I don't see an issue shuffling weapons and such around if they've just gone ahead a screen. It only really makes sense for a couple people the game keeps teasing you with for a while.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Also I got to the point where I used a 300,000 gald freebie and don't feel guilty or trivialized at all.

    I got to the point where I was just barely able to keep up with buying/synthing everything for everyone, and I ran out of money and needed a little more to synth the last couple items.

    It felt like a lot at first but just a couple towns later I have used almost all of it. The grinding just to be able to have stayed caught up on gear would've been ridiculous.

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  • TDawgTDawg Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    80% of all plot cutscenes are now:

    "I'm leaving the group to do this thing"
    "no wait, don't leave"
    "I have to"
    "well, decide for yourself"
    "ok, I'll stay with you guys, but other character, you don't have to keep going"
    "eh, it's on my way anyway and I can also think of other rationalizations"
    "yeah, I'll go too"

    This has been my life for like 10 hours.

    Like seriously it is always an empty threat now because this exact scenario has happened so many times that I know it never happens. Even when characters leave, they will be back before the next combat encounter.

    It's particularly toothless and tedious because Estelle is our only healer and I know from a game design standpoint they wouldn't deprive the player of that for very long.

    Karol can apparently be a somewhat decent healer if you unlock the right altered artes for him - a 40% AoE heal isn't bad, but you'd probably need to manually control him for it.

    But yes, it gets tiring to watch those scenes, I'll admit. Especially the "everyone has left" for the sake of some cutscenes.

    Raven is actually my favorite healer in this game. I used him for a fairly big chunk back in the 360 days and he delivers.

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  • CiriraCirira IowaRegistered User regular
    So I have both Berseria and Vesperia that I just picked up for PS4. I've not played a Tales game since Symphonia. Which one of those two would y'all recommend first?

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Vesperia I think, it's very similar to Symphonia in how it plays.

    Berseria's combat system has a lot more differences.

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  • Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Probably a better idea to play Vesperia first. Berseria plays so fantastically compared to Vesperia that it might ruin the experience for you if you play Berseria first.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    In spite of Vesperia's issues I enjoy some of the elements. Like, real spoilers:
    That Yuri just murders the bad guys.

    Though I don't consider Cumore murdered, as Flynn put it! He backed himself into quicksand and as Batman Begins would say, "I don't have to save you." He shares some partial responsibility but it turned out different than Ragou.

    Some of the writing surrounding that was really good. But then it cuts back in with weird/laughable writing, like Estelle not properly taking what happened seriously. Murdering people is a little different from normal JRPG dark hero fare but they treat it like any other minor character failing, "I'll always go with you Yuri." Like uhhhh...

    Still it just makes me think like...in Pokemon what if Ash straight up murdered Team Rocket. That's where we're at now.

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  • vamenvamen Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    I had one turn off to Vesperia in that there were so many little nuances with the combat. The gameplay itself wasn't complicated but it had like 300 little systems that I couldn't keep track of. It felt like every 15 minutes there would be a new small aspect to combat that I needed to memorize. I finally just said 'screw it' and mostly ignored all those things =p.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    vamen wrote: »
    I had one turn off to Vesperia in that there were so many little nuances with the combat. The gameplay itself wasn't complicated but it had like 300 little systems that I couldn't keep track of. It felt like every 15 minutes there would be a new small aspect to combat that I needed to memorize. I finally just said 'screw it' and mostly ignored all those things =p.

    The only things to really worry about are fatal strikes and overlimit.

    Fatal strikes are easy - regular attacks deplete up side or down based on what direction you hold to do the attack. Artes deplete and can proc fatal strike if the meter is empty (they show which they deplete... I just make sure my up/side/down artes hit the matching meter), then you hit the button to kill the enemy for bonuses. You can just ignore this too and hit the button if the glyph pops up (it will in boss fights, the meters only refill after a fatal).

    And overlimit is just spam artes for massive damage (also burst/mystics).

    You can completely avoid all the getting into the weeds on skills (just pick what sounds good) and altered artes and shit.

    There is something special to setting up Yuri to be able to do a one-man 150 hit combo that fires his mystic arte off twice though.

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