The changes to rank resets on season change are the best.
Pagle change is fine (if i had a pagle, I'd take this opportunity to convert him into a different legendary).
Tinkmaster change is interesting. It's 'another random minion' which makes him potentially far too unreliable on a crowded board, but if your opponent just throws a lone ragnaros or tirion out there, tinkmaster can still do some work.
I'm still leveling all the classes to 10 and enjoying the game. I will say that since I haven't memorized all the cards, I literally have no idea what options my opponent has based on class, mana, and so forth. Kind of frustrating, but also kind of fun.
Finding the "noob" combos is also a blast.
Me: "Hmm....Cult Master + Imp Lady + Free Imps + killing Imps + Priest Heal on Imp Lady = Unlimited Card Draw!"
Enemy: "Destroy everything on the board spell"
Me: "Whelp..."
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I like the Pagle change quite a bit; it is conservative. I really don't think Pagle is that much off from a balance perspective. I actually like the Tink change too. Instead of being in every deck, you have to figure out whether he fits, and he can fit either in mass creature decks who gain an efficient 3 drop with a chance of turning a token into a dinosaur, and mostly creatureless decks who can use it as less reliable removal.
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I'm still leveling all the classes to 10 and enjoying the game. I will say that since I haven't memorized all the cards, I literally have no idea what options my opponent has based on class, mana, and so forth. Kind of frustrating, but also kind of fun.
Finding the "noob" combos is also a blast.
Me: "Hmm....Cult Master + Imp Lady + Free Imps + killing Imps + Priest Heal on Imp Lady = Unlimited Card Draw!"
Enemy: "Destroy everything on the board spell"
Me: "Whelp..."
I don't think giving priests an overpowered 8 mana card is the way to make up for their struggles in the early/mid game. Hopefully in time we see new cards and/or a meta game shift that allows priests not to get run over before the end game as often.
Anyway, has Blizzard changed card rarity even once throughout this beta? If not, then it wouldn't surprise me if it's something their system can't really support. And if they're not making that kind of change in beta, it seems even more unlikely they'll do it in "retail"...
I believe they did it with the ghoul, but I may be mistaken. Perhaps @Jaef can clarify as he informed me of that change in the past.
Now it sees no play at all, and even in Arena its a liability the vast majority of the time.
I'm not convinced that's true. Can you validate it somehow?
Unfortunately, I don't have any hard data to back it up - just my own personal (and highly subjective, I know) experiences over the last couple of months.
Ever since the nerf to 10 mana, priests have dropped off considerably. I play probably an average of one priest per Arena run at most. Usually, just due to the nature of how priests operate, they are behind enough on turn 10, that a single mind control does very little to help them regain possession of the board.
Normally the sequence looks something like this:
I've 3 guys on the board, and my opponent has 1-2. Opponent Mind Controls my best guy on turn 10. I untap attack past his remaining minions, then drop two more of my own. Now my opponent is even further further behind on the board and at a lower life total.
Obviously, that is not every game, and if the priest is even slightly ahead MC can be a nail in the coffin. But in my experience, priests either dominate the game completely, or they are on the back foot desperate to stabilize. MC has rarely seemed better than just dropping a taunt wall and another minion.
Plus, due to the 10 mana requirement, running more than 1 is very dangerous. Having one in your opponent hand is awful, and having two is a death knell.
It's not on the same level as Pyroblast or Deathwing, two cards that can just end the game immediately.
Pyroblast only ends the game immediately if your opponent is below a certain health level, though. And there are certainly scenarios where MC will put you ahead of your opponent.
Both are very true, but for mages, they are usually looking to close out the game, and especially for that class, getting your opponent to 10 life isn't too difficult. I'd only run one pyroblast now, with it at 10 mana, but I'd be perfectly happy with that.
While I feel that running even a single mind control is a gamble. Not only do you need it to stabilize the board, but you need it to be better than your opponent's entire next turn as well. Unless, of course, you're slightly ahead. But if you're already ahead, there's a lot of cards you can play that seal out the game and cost significantly less.
My experience with mind control went from praying that my opponent didn't have a second one, otherwise the game is completely over, to praying that my opponent plays mind control on turn 10 because then he's just dead.
Some issues seem to be getting conflated here. I wouldn't say that encountering fewer people playing priests should be seen as sufficient evidence for making MC cost 8 mana again. Do you think priest mid-game weakness would be shored up by making MC 8 mana again? If priests could more reliably get to turn 10 without being well behind, would MC be a more reasonable card to include in a priest deck?
Even if you're slightly behind, MC can put you ahead, depending on your target and the board state. I mean most cards aren't going to save you if you're behind, so I'm not sure if you're judging it fairly. I just don't think it should be changed back into an over-budget super crutch that is the main thing propping up the priest class.
Before the change, 2 MCs were an auto-include in every constructed priest deck ever; I don't think too many would argue that this wasn't happening. With the mana increase, they were no longer a total no-brainer. I disagree that running one is a gamble, as does Tommatt. Obviously without a poll it's hard to say how a lot of others feel.
And in arena, even taking 3 or 4 pre-nerf MCs was usually a good idea (unless they were up against other top tier cards or your curve was already incredibly top heavy from 6+ minions). I think I remember watching Krip going 9-X taking every MC he was offered in a draft -- something like 4 or 5. Now I would be hesitant to take more than one obviously, but I wouldn't balk at all about taking the first one. It's still a strong late game removal card. Hell, I'd still probably take a second if it was near the end of a draft and I had shit for big cards.
Edit:
Having one in your opponent hand is awful, and having two is a death knell.
I agree, but this is a risk with a lot of big cards. If you mulligan into, say, your Rag and Ysera, you're probably not going to have a good time unless your opponent is also very late gamey (or drew similarly).
sorry I couldn't get back to this sooner. I was busy all weekend. You make really good points, and you've argued them well. With Mind Control the way that it is, I'm inclined to agree that moving it back to 8 mana as a crutch to prop up the priest class is probably not ideal. They need more mid-game power, and I am not sure if that's going to happen any time soon without redesign of existing cards that they have, or new cards coming from an expansion.
Anyway, I really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you
/happy about changes, totally regret crafting a pagle
and now I don't have to craft a tink since he is useless!
you don't have to regret it since you can cash him in for full value though
I regretted crafting him before the change, since he is way too streaky to be worth the slot. 90% of the time I would have rather drawn a loot hoarder.
But now I'm happy since he was nerfed I can burn him for a cairne.
Then I will have a full set of "useful" neutral legends! (and maybe I can stop playing this stupid game and actually get some shit done)
currently missing syl and cairne -- edit: and tink
With the nerfs I'll burn pagle but probably won't craft anything until I I'm feeling creative, cairne doesn't fit in my handlock which is my current ladder deck
edit 2: alexstraza is also useful in a couple of decks
bought 20 packs, played assload of arena ( http://arenas.ws/jaoW6 ) you can read my comments whining like a little bitch when I lose
probably played at least 40 before I started tracking the runs w/ arena mastery - currently 865 arena wins (so with my record thats probably 1.2k arena games)
I suspect I've gotten absurdly lucky in my pack openings legends roughly at a rate of about 1 per 13 packs or so and mostly gotten good ones
Full set of useful neutral legends? Not until you have a golden Cho, mister!
I once played a game where my opponent dropped a legendary nearly every turn. His second drop was Cho. At the time I was running a deck with very few spells so I left him up. It helped me win the game.
I mean, I've seen a lot of games on streams where there is a big drop (Rags, Ysera, etc) played on an otherwise empty board.
However, I'm not a fan of random elements, so I guess I don't really like adding another one. That could determine games in tournaments, and that's no fun.
I think Ragnaros should be a beginning of turn effect too. Kind of broken that he gets charge, retaliationless attacks for free just because it's randomized.
An 8/8/8 that you can't control isn't a good card though, Ragnaros is only good because he does something the turn he's played. Make that change and everyone will just shift to Ysera, as the wheel turns.
Priest might get some use out of it. There's still the paladin dream of making your 1-1 into a 5-5, but now it also drops a pretty decent body for 3. In theory, it still lets you gain board control lategame if you silence their fatty and drop something of your own as well; a tink might not be great, but tinking rag and then dropping an ogre is pretty alright.
Tink would be ok in Shaman/Pallie decks, get the right opening cards and you have a good shot at a 3 devilsaur. Failing that, keep him for removal if your opponent drops a solo fatty.
Obviously a big nerf, but it hits classes without hard removal especially hard. Since those two classes are Paladin and Druid, fuck those classes because they're OP anyways.
In fact, making Ragnaros act at the start of your turn would gut him completely, never mind losing the pseudo-charge. At the very least when he acts last you can clean up the board a little - with that change you'll always be at risk of wasting that damage on a totem or recruit before you're able to direct it a little better. You'd be forced to run a silence for it.
An 8/8/8 that you can't control isn't a good card though, Ragnaros is only good because he does something the turn he's played. Make that change and everyone will just shift to Ysera, as the wheel turns.
Pretty much this.
Everyone's already holding out their big removal for rag and he usually only sees one turn played.
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Pagle change is fine (if i had a pagle, I'd take this opportunity to convert him into a different legendary).
Tinkmaster change is interesting. It's 'another random minion' which makes him potentially far too unreliable on a crowded board, but if your opponent just throws a lone ragnaros or tirion out there, tinkmaster can still do some work.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
Wait, huh? What's the change to Tinkmaster other than becoming 3/3? Is there a cost change that's not written there?
Edit: NM. Me dummy. It's a random target now. I thought it was just a wording change to indicate that you get a 1/1 or 5/5 at random.
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Finding the "noob" combos is also a blast.
Me: "Hmm....Cult Master + Imp Lady + Free Imps + killing Imps + Priest Heal on Imp Lady = Unlimited Card Draw!"
Enemy: "Destroy everything on the board spell"
Me: "Whelp..."
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gonna trade in tinkmaster for sylvanas, exactly like the meta will do
I see what you did there.
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wra
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and now I don't have to craft a tink since he is useless!
i never liked him much anyway.
RIP tinkmaster, you are now awful.
you don't have to regret it since you can cash him in for full value though
I just opened my Pagle last week!
you can wait and fish in hell, Pagle!
@forty
sorry I couldn't get back to this sooner. I was busy all weekend. You make really good points, and you've argued them well. With Mind Control the way that it is, I'm inclined to agree that moving it back to 8 mana as a crutch to prop up the priest class is probably not ideal. They need more mid-game power, and I am not sure if that's going to happen any time soon without redesign of existing cards that they have, or new cards coming from an expansion.
Anyway, I really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you
not until after the change, in which you will get the full 3200 dust. I think you'll just get like... 600 if you do it now.
I regretted crafting him before the change, since he is way too streaky to be worth the slot. 90% of the time I would have rather drawn a loot hoarder.
But now I'm happy since he was nerfed I can burn him for a cairne.
Then I will have a full set of "useful" neutral legends! (and maybe I can stop playing this stupid game and actually get some shit done)
Heh...no
Ysera, rag, BK, bloodmage, leroy, cairne, pagle, tink, syl
Not that many if you think about it
currently missing syl and cairne -- edit: and tink
With the nerfs I'll burn pagle but probably won't craft anything until I I'm feeling creative, cairne doesn't fit in my handlock which is my current ladder deck
edit 2: alexstraza is also useful in a couple of decks
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
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wra
Helllllllo dragons!
probably played at least 40 before I started tracking the runs w/ arena mastery - currently 865 arena wins (so with my record thats probably 1.2k arena games)
I suspect I've gotten absurdly lucky in my pack openings legends roughly at a rate of about 1 per 13 packs or so and mostly gotten good ones
don't worry I still suck at the game
I once played a game where my opponent dropped a legendary nearly every turn. His second drop was Cho. At the time I was running a deck with very few spells so I left him up. It helped me win the game.
Tink change is bad. Just makes all other big legendaries Rag, Ysera, etc that much better.
However, I'm not a fan of random elements, so I guess I don't really like adding another one. That could determine games in tournaments, and that's no fun.
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Best-case: You cast it when your opponent only has one big creature and you have none for a 50% chance of gaining board control.
Anything else is kind of a wash and relies on luck not just in targeting the right creature, but also in getting the right effect off.
Any ideas on what decks it will still be useful in? Maybe with a priest in combination with SW:D to ensure you can take out a Sylvanas or a Cairn?
Obviously a big nerf, but it hits classes without hard removal especially hard. Since those two classes are Paladin and Druid, fuck those classes because they're OP anyways.
Pretty much this.
Everyone's already holding out their big removal for rag and he usually only sees one turn played.
Except now everyone has one less removal.
Ha!
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wra