If given the choice between two bad dudes, go with the bad dude will at least accomplish some kind of good. Bhelan might be a fucker, but the end result of Bhelan's rule is infinity preferable to Harrowmont killing the species just to maintain the toxic status quo of a prejudiced society.
Exactly. That's also why I usually pair Alistair and Anora on the throne. Yes, Anora is a scheming jackass who did nothing while her country collapsed, and was only driven to action by her father's idiotic paranoia. But she's smart, and she can play the game the best of anyone in Ferelden- with the possible exception of Arl Eamon. Alistair has the heart of a king, but not the head- he is, and will forever be, too kind. Put them together and you have chance at getting the best of both worlds. Anora can play the game that keeps the country running. Alistair can actually unite the people through faith rather than fear or through a name. Hence the super hopeful ending scenes for this route.
One thing I really like about Inquisition's setup is the purported focus on leadership. That's a cool theme in and of itself, but we would be remiss to ignore how that theme plays through the first two games. Origins is chock full of terrible leaders. Zathrian, Harrowmont, and Loghain fail at their duties because they are unable to put their people ahead of themselves. Half the point of Dragon Age 2 is how leadership, no matter how competent or benevolent, can only go so far. I'm really excited to see what Bioware can do with a story centered on the subject.
Hardened Alastair married to Anora with a living Loghain as a Grey Warden seems to me to be the best ending possible. Loghain might be a shit ruler, but he's got chops the Wardens can use. A hardened Alastair will balance his mercy with common sense, and Anora can manage her plots on her own. Loghain, then, can make the God Baby.
It's not a nice ending. The ritual, sparing Loghain, keeping Anora in power, dimming Alastair's light, those are all really tough choices. But they're what the world needs.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
Act 2 would have been much shorter if the Arishok had actually talked to people, or if Isabela wasn't an unbelievable asshole.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Killing Trian and getting the Dwarf Noble out of the way are the only way he can get a clear shot at the throne. He's also the only one among those that do have a shot at the throne that actually want to drag Orzammar out of the traditionalist stagnation that got the Dwarves where they are today.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
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BassguyGhost Ride the DragonRegistered Userregular
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
Baby, bathwater, etc.
Let's say someone disliked the Roman Catholic Church. Disliking the church, trying to thwart their political advancement, and infuriating the leadership doesn't mean you hate people just because they're Catholics. Same goes for fictional universes. Most of the people you meet in the DA universe buy into the church of Andraste. I certainly don't dislike these characters simply because they participate in a system I find vile and corrupt.
Also, interesting characters —much like real people— are multidimensional. Sure, Leliana is (more or less) devout, but she's also a really interesting character with a complex history. In addition, I think she looks super badass in her Inquisition gear. That's why she's currently my avatar.
Next up for me is running trough both Golem DLC quests.
I've been playing DA:O recently, and I just tried to play Golems of Amgarrak the other day. It's REALLY tedious. A huge portion of it is a giant switch puzzle. It's not really difficult, but I found it to be incredibly annoying. I didn't even bother playing it when I first played DA:O years ago.
After your finish it, can you port your extra items back into the main quest? I suspect you can. I was going to use it as a level and loot boost.
Krathoon on
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BassguyGhost Ride the DragonRegistered Userregular
Next up for me is running trough both Golem DLC quests.
I've been playing DA:O recently, and I just tried to play Golems of Amgarrak the other day. It's REALLY tedious. A huge portion of it is a giant switch puzzle. It's not really difficult, but I found it to be incredibly annoying. I didn't even bother playing it when I first played DA:O years ago.
After your finish it, can you port your extra items back into the main quest? I suspect you can. I was going to use it as a level and loot boost.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
Act 2 would have been much shorter if the Arishok had actually talked to people, or if Isabela wasn't an unbelievable asshole.
The Arishok sent a delegation to talk to the Viscount, and they ended up getting kidnapped and murdered. I'm not really sure what more you could expect after that.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
You sided with the werewolves but hate unstable fanatics like the Arishok. You are a complicated man that I just can't understand, Dr. Chaos.
Act 2 would have been much shorter if the Arishok had actually talked to people, or if Isabela wasn't an unbelievable asshole.
Regarding the situation with the Arishok
What Isabella did and what happened because of it were completely out of proportion. You steal something valuable, they send people to get it back. Fair enough. They send one of their three highest leaders and an ARMY of dudes... uhh what? Then they encamp in a hostile city and 'search' for it for years... while not doing anything that could be called effective searching. Uhh... huh.
I dunno what's the point of getting mad at Isabella, pirates gonna pirate. And despite it having no value besides money to her, SHE looks for the damn book much harder than the Qunari do! Finally, if you have a good rep with her, she even shows up to return the thing, which anyone would expect could result in her immediate and horrible death (or worse)!
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chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
You sided with the werewolves but hate unstable fanatics like the Arishok. You are a complicated man that I just can't understand, Dr. Chaos.
Chaos. It's in the name.
All we can be sure of is he hates the corpse emperor. Beyond that, anyone's bet what's going down.
I liked how depending on which was your first playthrough, (mine was Casteless) can colour your perceptions of a guy. When I strolled through Orzammar, and my sister ran up to me, telling me she was with Bhelen, who wanted to abolish the caste system, I totally supported the guy.
Reading about the Noble end, I think I should try to play a Bhelen supporting Dwarf Noble.
Sure you may be King, little Bro, but guess what! I'm a fucking Paragon. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Killing Trian and getting the Dwarf Noble out of the way are the only way he can get a clear shot at the throne. He's also the only one among those that do have a shot at the throne that actually want to drag Orzammar out of the traditionalist stagnation that got the Dwarves where they are today.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
(Iron) Bull. Shit. That's the whole point of that import quest in DA2. He genocided harrowmont's family down to the last child out of spite
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little knife-ears? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my Joining in the Grey Wardens, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Tevinter, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top archer in the entire Ferelden armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Eluvian? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of apostates across Thedas and your phylactery is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Templars and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shemlen. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, maleficar.
Thats the thing about Bhelen that sucks. He wasn't doing it just to gain power, he really did want to make a difference.
God...he's so damn vicious though. Confusing me with his morally gray but well intentioned cut throat motives.
I...don't really believe this.
I don't debate he was good for the dwarves (the closing crawl flat out says this) but he was definitely doing it just to gain power. You don't kill or exile every single living member of your family AND subvert the political system of your kingdom everytime someone disagrees with you 'to make a difference'. Dude was a power-hungry monster. He just happened to make decisions at the right time that benefitted others as well as himself.
When the choice is between "change everything about your culture" and "go extinct," I'm not sure there's really a difference between doing it for power and doing it for the greater good. If there is, then it's one that strikes me as largely academic. Without Bhelen, the dwarves are doomed. Plain fact. With Bhelen, the dwarves might be able to push back against the Darkspawn- which is something that benefits all of Thedas. Whether his reasons are selfish, altruistic, or a complex mix of both, doesn't really matter in the end.
Similar to the way that Loghain's motivations- jealousy or patriotism- are immaterial because in the end, his sheer incompetence nearly doomed Ferelden.
Helping for such reasons is a fine thing, because at the end of the day, it's still helping. Wisdom from a hiker in Pokemon White.
And FWIW, you guys are blowing the Dwarf's decline way out of proportion. Sure they'll have problems, but it's a generational thing, not something one king is going to make or break
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Killing Trian and getting the Dwarf Noble out of the way are the only way he can get a clear shot at the throne. He's also the only one among those that do have a shot at the throne that actually want to drag Orzammar out of the traditionalist stagnation that got the Dwarves where they are today.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
(Iron) Bull. Shit. That's the whole point of that import quest in DA2. He genocided harrowmont's family down to the last child out of spite
Of course he's eliminating the line. But even if he was doing it with an element of spite, it's also just as much making sure the only other house that could significantly challenge the throne is eliminated.
Whether or not it's genocide isn't up for debate considering the nature of the DA universe(hell, Warden and Hawke have probably ended more family lines than that while doing their hair in the morning), but from a political standpoint Bhelen would be stupid to let anyone in the house live.
Pyral Harrowmont is far more vicious than he lets on. (example: per the epilogue, he'll use the golems to destroy Dust Town in response to riots if you left the golems intact for Orzammar and placed him as king.) As I said, Bhelen's heavily pragmatic - and if the storyline has proven anything it's that he's not stupid when it comes to Dwarven intrigue. No doubt he knows this about Pyral and orders him to be executed before he can have a chance to rally the traditionalist houses to strike at him. (Bhelen's epilogue had him dissolve the entire assembly in response to constant assassination attempts from the traditionalist houses)
In house politics an enemy house doesn't suddenly stop being enemies(and they certainly don't lose their noble house influence) just because you offed the oldest guy there. Dwarf houses carry this shit for generations - and ride their ancestors' coattails even longer. Considering house Harrowmont was influential enough to contend for the throne, and no doubt there are many more traditionalist houses that would rather maintain the status quo, he certainly can't take any risks such as allowing Harrowmont to be a rallying figure.
Matter of fact, the letter you get from Renvil Harrowmont if you escort him to the docks straight up tells you that he's going to try to make his way to Kal-Sharok. While the meaning of this isn't immediately apparent to Hawke, from a Dwarven point of view this is most certainly not an out of the way surfaceville to live out the rest of his days peacefully.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little knife-ears? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my Joining in the Grey Wardens, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Tevinter, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top archer in the entire Ferelden armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Eluvian? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of apostates across Thedas and your phylactery is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Templars and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shemlen. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, maleficar.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Killing Trian and getting the Dwarf Noble out of the way are the only way he can get a clear shot at the throne. He's also the only one among those that do have a shot at the throne that actually want to drag Orzammar out of the traditionalist stagnation that got the Dwarves where they are today.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
(Iron) Bull. Shit. That's the whole point of that import quest in DA2. He genocided harrowmont's family down to the last child out of spite
Of course he's eliminating the line. But even if he was doing it with an element of spite, it's also just as much making sure the only other house that could significantly challenge the throne is eliminated.
Whether or not it's genocide isn't up for debate considering the nature of the DA universe(hell, Warden and Hawke have probably ended more family lines than that while doing their hair in the morning), but from a political standpoint Bhelen would be stupid to let anyone in the house live.
Pyral Harrowmont is far more vicious than he lets on. (example: per the epilogue, he'll use the golems to destroy Dust Town in response to riots if you left the golems intact for Orzammar and placed him as king.) As I said, Bhelen's heavily pragmatic - and if the storyline has proven anything it's that he's not stupid when it comes to Dwarven intrigue. No doubt he knows this about Pyral and orders him to be executed before he can have a chance to rally the traditionalist houses to strike at him. (Bhelen's epilogue had him dissolve the entire assembly in response to constant assassination attempts from the traditionalist houses)
In house politics an enemy house doesn't suddenly stop being enemies(and they certainly don't lose their noble house influence) just because you offed the oldest guy there. Dwarf houses carry this shit for generations - and ride their ancestors' coattails even longer. Considering house Harrowmont was influential enough to contend for the throne, and no doubt there are many more traditionalist houses that would rather maintain the status quo, he certainly can't take any risks such as allowing Harrowmont to be a rallying figure.
Matter of fact, the letter you get from Renvil Harrowmont if you escort him to the docks straight up tells you that he's going to try to make his way to Kal-Sharok. While the meaning of this isn't immediately apparent to Hawke, from a Dwarven point of view this is most certainly not an out of the way surfaceville to live out the rest of his days peacefully.
Yeah, haven't you read your Shakespeare?
Leaving a distant cousin or something alive means that a generation or two down the line, they're coming back with a claim, an army, and then all your efforts fall apart.
"I chose a half measure, when I should have gone all the way... I'll never make that mistake again. No more half measures, Walter."
Ruthless, but it makes sense, especially with a weak claim like Bhelen's.
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Killing Trian and getting the Dwarf Noble out of the way are the only way he can get a clear shot at the throne. He's also the only one among those that do have a shot at the throne that actually want to drag Orzammar out of the traditionalist stagnation that got the Dwarves where they are today.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
(Iron) Bull. Shit. That's the whole point of that import quest in DA2. He genocided harrowmont's family down to the last child out of spite
Of course he's eliminating the line. But even if he was doing it with an element of spite, it's also just as much making sure the only other house that could significantly challenge the throne is eliminated.
Whether or not it's genocide isn't up for debate considering the nature of the DA universe(hell, Warden and Hawke have probably ended more family lines than that while doing their hair in the morning), but from a political standpoint Bhelen would be stupid to let anyone in the house live.
Pyral Harrowmont is far more vicious than he lets on. (example: per the epilogue, he'll use the golems to destroy Dust Town in response to riots if you left the golems intact for Orzammar and placed him as king.) As I said, Bhelen's heavily pragmatic - and if the storyline has proven anything it's that he's not stupid when it comes to Dwarven intrigue. No doubt he knows this about Pyral and orders him to be executed before he can have a chance to rally the traditionalist houses to strike at him. (Bhelen's epilogue had him dissolve the entire assembly in response to constant assassination attempts from the traditionalist houses)
In house politics an enemy house doesn't suddenly stop being enemies(and they certainly don't lose their noble house influence) just because you offed the oldest guy there. Dwarf houses carry this shit for generations - and ride their ancestors' coattails even longer. Considering house Harrowmont was influential enough to contend for the throne, and no doubt there are many more traditionalist houses that would rather maintain the status quo, he certainly can't take any risks such as allowing Harrowmont to be a rallying figure.
Matter of fact, the letter you get from Renvil Harrowmont if you escort him to the docks straight up tells you that he's going to try to make his way to Kal-Sharok. While the meaning of this isn't immediately apparent to Hawke, from a Dwarven point of view this is most certainly not an out of the way surfaceville to live out the rest of his days peacefully.
The only claim that Harrowmont had on the throne was as a deshyr, and the main advisor to the late king. His successors would not have any more of a claim than any of the other deshyrs. And that other stuff is really just how Dwarfs politic as usual, I don't see why you say that he's especially pragmatic for doing so, when your point is that they do the same to him? In fact, if you dig at all in the quests his 2nd makes you do, it's clear that he's not even playing the game, he's cheating like a mofo.
And Kal-Sharok is not exactly on speaking terms with Orzammar at the moment, from a dwarven point of view he was almost assuredly going there for asylum, since no support would be coming
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Killing Trian and getting the Dwarf Noble out of the way are the only way he can get a clear shot at the throne. He's also the only one among those that do have a shot at the throne that actually want to drag Orzammar out of the traditionalist stagnation that got the Dwarves where they are today.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
(Iron) Bull. Shit. That's the whole point of that import quest in DA2. He genocided harrowmont's family down to the last child out of spite
Pretty sure the whole point of that was to prevent anyone in their house from taking any act of vengeance against him. Ever since he took the crown in his case, Bhelen had a lot of people try and murder him, and he responds in kind. There's also the possibility that Bhelen didn't actually order it himself, but the fanatics in his faction did instead (if you don't remember, there's a LOT of crazies who were trying to get either candidate on the crown), and it was the Carta you dealt with in DA2, not Bhelen's own men.
So...the proper response to murder attempts is...murder? Okay then.
This is the same person who murdered his whole family in a grab for power. I don't think it was to consolidate power or anything. I think he is just addicted to the murderknife
Overall, I tend not to think too much about dwarven culture -- much like the other races in Thedas. Out of site, out of mind. I much prefer to spend my time with Dragon Age hating the chantry and the qun. The closer we get to DAI, the more excited I am about getting to piss off every religious figure I come across.
If you actually hated the Chantry, you wouldn't use one of the most devout members of the Chantry as your personal picture. You know, just saying...
You can like a character while condemning their leaders.
For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Killing Trian and getting the Dwarf Noble out of the way are the only way he can get a clear shot at the throne. He's also the only one among those that do have a shot at the throne that actually want to drag Orzammar out of the traditionalist stagnation that got the Dwarves where they are today.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
(Iron) Bull. Shit. That's the whole point of that import quest in DA2. He genocided harrowmont's family down to the last child out of spite
Of course he's eliminating the line. But even if he was doing it with an element of spite, it's also just as much making sure the only other house that could significantly challenge the throne is eliminated.
Whether or not it's genocide isn't up for debate considering the nature of the DA universe(hell, Warden and Hawke have probably ended more family lines than that while doing their hair in the morning), but from a political standpoint Bhelen would be stupid to let anyone in the house live.
Pyral Harrowmont is far more vicious than he lets on. (example: per the epilogue, he'll use the golems to destroy Dust Town in response to riots if you left the golems intact for Orzammar and placed him as king.) As I said, Bhelen's heavily pragmatic - and if the storyline has proven anything it's that he's not stupid when it comes to Dwarven intrigue. No doubt he knows this about Pyral and orders him to be executed before he can have a chance to rally the traditionalist houses to strike at him. (Bhelen's epilogue had him dissolve the entire assembly in response to constant assassination attempts from the traditionalist houses)
In house politics an enemy house doesn't suddenly stop being enemies(and they certainly don't lose their noble house influence) just because you offed the oldest guy there. Dwarf houses carry this shit for generations - and ride their ancestors' coattails even longer. Considering house Harrowmont was influential enough to contend for the throne, and no doubt there are many more traditionalist houses that would rather maintain the status quo, he certainly can't take any risks such as allowing Harrowmont to be a rallying figure.
Matter of fact, the letter you get from Renvil Harrowmont if you escort him to the docks straight up tells you that he's going to try to make his way to Kal-Sharok. While the meaning of this isn't immediately apparent to Hawke, from a Dwarven point of view this is most certainly not an out of the way surfaceville to live out the rest of his days peacefully.
The only claim that Harrowmont had on the throne was as a deshyr, and the main advisor to the late king. His successors would not have any more of a claim than any of the other deshyrs. And that other stuff is really just how Dwarfs politic as usual, I don't see why you say that he's especially pragmatic for doing so, when your point is that they do the same to him? In fact, if you dig at all in the quests his 2nd makes you do, it's clear that he's not even playing the game, he's cheating like a mofo.
And Kal-Sharok is not exactly on speaking terms with Orzammar at the moment, from a dwarven point of view he was almost assuredly going there for asylum, since no support would be coming
Because it could have been much worse than scattered assassins if there was an actual opposition leader - especially if he made the move to dissolve the assembly if Harrowmont(Pyral or house) were still around to oppose it.
They wouldn't need to have a competing claim to the throne in this situation, they would just need enough organized support among the noble houses to remove Bhelen from the throne - one way or the other. From that point Pyral(if alive) or any other more traditionalist party(even if it's not house Harrowmont) would be free to make a claim for the throne.
And we aren't going to know about the impact of Renvil reaching Kal-Sharok until Inquisition(maybe - if Bioware even remembers this story point was a thing), but a number of things could happen and I doubt any of them will be as simple as Renvil living out his days in Kal-Sharok as a refugee. This one I'm genuinely curious to see what happens. Just to fire off a few examples... Since they hate Orzammar, they could simply kill him. Or he'll find out that Bhelen actually strengthened ties with Kal-Sharok(because, you know, progressive), and then they'll kill him because he's a political enemy of their new ally. Or they could just refuse to let him in. Or they could let him in and he'll spin tales of the new Tyrant-king of Orzammar and how he needs to be opposed. Or they'll let him in and he'll find out that the Carta has influences there too...as he bleeds out in an alley. It could be any number of scenarios.
So...the proper response to murder attempts is...murder? Okay then.
This is the same person who murdered his whole family in a grab for power. I don't think it was to consolidate power or anything. I think he is just addicted to the murderknife
Somebody tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back.
I dunno, it just seems like you're arguing a double standard because behlen= pragmatic progressive, and therefore what he does must be good. Whereas the traditionalists must, by definition, be wrong.
The problem for me about Orzammar is that, as far as I know, neither side really does anything to try to win you over. I chose Harrowmount both times I played through it, because the very first impression I got of Bhelen was his violent thugs attacking people in the streets right before my eyes. Five minutes later he tried to murder me and my friends in the open streets.
Had Bhelen started by arranging a meeting where he explained his point of view I might have at least thought about helping him. As it were, all I knew about the man was that he was willing to murder anyone who even stood in his way, including his own family.
I dunno, it just seems like you're arguing a double standard because behlen= pragmatic progressive, and therefore what he does must be good. Whereas the traditionalists must, by definition, be wrong.
That's a bit of a lopsided claim. I've never(intentionally anyway) said the methods he used were good in an alignment sense, matter of fact they're incredibly vicious. But alignment is generally irrelevant to pragmatism. And both sides(progressives/traditionalists) are using the same methods to reach the same goal(just to a different result), so picking either side based solely on their actions to get there doesn't really accomplish anything - you may as well just flip a coin, because both of them do some pretty terrible shit based on how you ended the game(this is why earlier posts were hailing the choice as refreshingly gray compared to other game choices). However if you're looking at the end result, the choice becomes pretty clear.
And the Traditionalists are wrong by definition, but it's because they have over a dozen generations of evidence showing that everything they've done up to this point has cost them their entire civilization. Their caste system(why the fuck do you refuse to allow such a large section of your population to fight for you when you're losing your entire civilization?), their isolationism, their exclusionary self-serving practices, the generational coattail-riding, all of it is biting them in the ass and they're too busy bragging about how their great-great-great grandfather made a water-clock or something to see that they're not even all that better off than the Failish-er, Dalish right now. (oh they certainly have the matching high-horses though)
Yes, whatever his intentions for doing so, Bhelen is the better choice because
his policies drag Orzammar(kicking and screaming in some cases) into a new age. Dismantling Relaxing the caste system, allowing casteless to finally pick up arms and fight the Darkspawn, pushing the battle lines with the Darkspawn back(something they haven't done in generations) to reclaim lost Thaigs(or even push them beyond the dead trenches if the Warden set up an alliance with Ferelden) would never have happened with a traditionalist ruler.
As a matter of fact, the epilogue entry for King Harrowmont (if you give him access to the golems) practically damns Orzammar to fall.
eh I ended up supporting Bhelen after all the stuff the town criers ,merchants and stuff were saying. I felt a little dirty after I started down that path ,though.
Posts
Hardened Alastair married to Anora with a living Loghain as a Grey Warden seems to me to be the best ending possible. Loghain might be a shit ruler, but he's got chops the Wardens can use. A hardened Alastair will balance his mercy with common sense, and Anora can manage her plots on her own. Loghain, then, can make the God Baby.
It's not a nice ending. The ritual, sparing Loghain, keeping Anora in power, dimming Alastair's light, those are all really tough choices. But they're what the world needs.
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For instance, I'm probably going to like the Iron Bull but that isn't going to change my opinion on the qun or unstable fanatics like the Arishok.
Yeah, fanaticism of any stripe is going to be fun to just run over roughshod.
I fully intend to play a Qunari so that I can piss off both the Chantry and the Qun-Qunari extra hard, since being a Qunari that doesn't follow the Qun tends to piss off Qun-Qunari and the Chantry just don't like Qunari in general.
But on Bhelen, he's a pragmatist - he doesn't kill just for the sake of killing, he does it because it needed to be done.
Yeah if you're in his way he's probably going to kill you, but he's also a staunch ally to those who support what he's trying to accomplish.
Case in point, if you play as a Dwarf Noble and still help Bhelen ascend to the throne, he not only pardons your exile, but inducts you back into House Aeducan and restores your privileges as a Noble. (In addition to the becoming a Paragon after the end of the game that happens with either Dwarf origin regardless)
And if you go the Warden Sacrifice route, he requests your body be returned to Orzammar to be buried next to their father(the previous king) with full royal honors.
Let's say someone disliked the Roman Catholic Church. Disliking the church, trying to thwart their political advancement, and infuriating the leadership doesn't mean you hate people just because they're Catholics. Same goes for fictional universes. Most of the people you meet in the DA universe buy into the church of Andraste. I certainly don't dislike these characters simply because they participate in a system I find vile and corrupt.
Also, interesting characters —much like real people— are multidimensional. Sure, Leliana is (more or less) devout, but she's also a really interesting character with a complex history. In addition, I think she looks super badass in her Inquisition gear. That's why she's currently my avatar.
After your finish it, can you port your extra items back into the main quest? I suspect you can. I was going to use it as a level and loot boost.
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You sided with the werewolves but hate unstable fanatics like the Arishok. You are a complicated man that I just can't understand, Dr. Chaos.
Regarding the situation with the Arishok
I dunno what's the point of getting mad at Isabella, pirates gonna pirate. And despite it having no value besides money to her, SHE looks for the damn book much harder than the Qunari do! Finally, if you have a good rep with her, she even shows up to return the thing, which anyone would expect could result in her immediate and horrible death (or worse)!
Chaos. It's in the name.
All we can be sure of is he hates the corpse emperor. Beyond that, anyone's bet what's going down.
Why I fear the ocean.
However, as a petty and vengeful dwarf noble who gave no shits about dwarven society, his death was sweet. Nemo me impune lacessit, brother.
Reading about the Noble end, I think I should try to play a Bhelen supporting Dwarf Noble.
WoW
Dear Satan.....
(Iron) Bull. Shit. That's the whole point of that import quest in DA2. He genocided harrowmont's family down to the last child out of spite
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little knife-ears? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my Joining in the Grey Wardens, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Tevinter, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top archer in the entire Ferelden armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Eluvian? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of apostates across Thedas and your phylactery is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Templars and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shemlen. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, maleficar.
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Helping for such reasons is a fine thing, because at the end of the day, it's still helping. Wisdom from a hiker in Pokemon White.
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Of course he's eliminating the line. But even if he was doing it with an element of spite, it's also just as much making sure the only other house that could significantly challenge the throne is eliminated.
Whether or not it's genocide isn't up for debate considering the nature of the DA universe(hell, Warden and Hawke have probably ended more family lines than that while doing their hair in the morning), but from a political standpoint Bhelen would be stupid to let anyone in the house live.
In house politics an enemy house doesn't suddenly stop being enemies(and they certainly don't lose their noble house influence) just because you offed the oldest guy there. Dwarf houses carry this shit for generations - and ride their ancestors' coattails even longer. Considering house Harrowmont was influential enough to contend for the throne, and no doubt there are many more traditionalist houses that would rather maintain the status quo, he certainly can't take any risks such as allowing Harrowmont to be a rallying figure.
Matter of fact, the letter you get from Renvil Harrowmont if you escort him to the docks straight up tells you that he's going to try to make his way to Kal-Sharok. While the meaning of this isn't immediately apparent to Hawke, from a Dwarven point of view this is most certainly not an out of the way surfaceville to live out the rest of his days peacefully.
Gorilla-warfare is the sport of kings.
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Yeah, haven't you read your Shakespeare?
"I chose a half measure, when I should have gone all the way... I'll never make that mistake again. No more half measures, Walter."
Ruthless, but it makes sense, especially with a weak claim like Bhelen's.
Why I fear the ocean.
The only claim that Harrowmont had on the throne was as a deshyr, and the main advisor to the late king. His successors would not have any more of a claim than any of the other deshyrs. And that other stuff is really just how Dwarfs politic as usual, I don't see why you say that he's especially pragmatic for doing so, when your point is that they do the same to him? In fact, if you dig at all in the quests his 2nd makes you do, it's clear that he's not even playing the game, he's cheating like a mofo.
And Kal-Sharok is not exactly on speaking terms with Orzammar at the moment, from a dwarven point of view he was almost assuredly going there for asylum, since no support would be coming
Pretty sure the whole point of that was to prevent anyone in their house from taking any act of vengeance against him. Ever since he took the crown in his case, Bhelen had a lot of people try and murder him, and he responds in kind. There's also the possibility that Bhelen didn't actually order it himself, but the fanatics in his faction did instead (if you don't remember, there's a LOT of crazies who were trying to get either candidate on the crown), and it was the Carta you dealt with in DA2, not Bhelen's own men.
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PSN: GamingFreak1234
Because it could have been much worse than scattered assassins if there was an actual opposition leader - especially if he made the move to dissolve the assembly if Harrowmont(Pyral or house) were still around to oppose it.
They wouldn't need to have a competing claim to the throne in this situation, they would just need enough organized support among the noble houses to remove Bhelen from the throne - one way or the other. From that point Pyral(if alive) or any other more traditionalist party(even if it's not house Harrowmont) would be free to make a claim for the throne.
And we aren't going to know about the impact of Renvil reaching Kal-Sharok until Inquisition(maybe - if Bioware even remembers this story point was a thing), but a number of things could happen and I doubt any of them will be as simple as Renvil living out his days in Kal-Sharok as a refugee. This one I'm genuinely curious to see what happens. Just to fire off a few examples... Since they hate Orzammar, they could simply kill him. Or he'll find out that Bhelen actually strengthened ties with Kal-Sharok(because, you know, progressive), and then they'll kill him because he's a political enemy of their new ally. Or they could just refuse to let him in. Or they could let him in and he'll spin tales of the new Tyrant-king of Orzammar and how he needs to be opposed. Or they'll let him in and he'll find out that the Carta has influences there too...as he bleeds out in an alley. It could be any number of scenarios.
Somebody tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Had Bhelen started by arranging a meeting where he explained his point of view I might have at least thought about helping him. As it were, all I knew about the man was that he was willing to murder anyone who even stood in his way, including his own family.
That's a bit of a lopsided claim. I've never(intentionally anyway) said the methods he used were good in an alignment sense, matter of fact they're incredibly vicious. But alignment is generally irrelevant to pragmatism. And both sides(progressives/traditionalists) are using the same methods to reach the same goal(just to a different result), so picking either side based solely on their actions to get there doesn't really accomplish anything - you may as well just flip a coin, because both of them do some pretty terrible shit based on how you ended the game(this is why earlier posts were hailing the choice as refreshingly gray compared to other game choices). However if you're looking at the end result, the choice becomes pretty clear.
And the Traditionalists are wrong by definition, but it's because they have over a dozen generations of evidence showing that everything they've done up to this point has cost them their entire civilization. Their caste system(why the fuck do you refuse to allow such a large section of your population to fight for you when you're losing your entire civilization?), their isolationism, their exclusionary self-serving practices, the generational coattail-riding, all of it is biting them in the ass and they're too busy bragging about how their great-great-great grandfather made a water-clock or something to see that they're not even all that better off than the Failish-er, Dalish right now. (oh they certainly have the matching high-horses though)
Yes, whatever his intentions for doing so, Bhelen is the better choice because