Well, that's lame. Guess I need to start carrying fireballs to finish them off or something.
A sword or weapon with a long reach also negates the problem. For example my Zweihander could take them out at a huge distance, preventing them from getting near for their final twitchy twitch attack.
One must always watch for twitchy twitchy.
I sort of expected this attack to be an autocounter to melee weapons regardless of their range; it is good to know I was wrong in this case. Time to bring out the Pursuer's sword again.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
There's no such thing as an autocounter regardless of range.
Everything has hitboxes and hurtboxes in this game. If you whiff an attack visually, you have whiffed an attack.
Don't talk about phantom range. It's just lag. I get it too but it never happens in pve.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Hitboxes are not necessarily visually detectable.
I get hit by whiffed attacks all the time.
Honestly, most attack animations are more like a suggestion of where hurtful stuff might be traveling.
Sokpuppet on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2014
Outside of PVP I could not disagree with you more.
Like, it wouldn't be possible.
I would have to invent some kind of anti-sok universe, filled with "No, Sok"
Everything has a telltale.
I've never, ever been hit by an attack that did not visually connect with my characters model, with the exception of large weapons, which have a distinctive aoe effect. (Puff of dirt coming out of the ground)
I fought everything with my fists. I was right in their face! My only option was dodging or spacing. I kind of have a lot of experience with this with every single enemy in the game. I had to memorise every major long range melee enemies tell tale. It simply was not possible to get past them otherwise.
Lots of thrust attacks hit you in pve because the enemies extend their entire arm, shoulder thrust forwards. It looks initially like they are randomly extending their weapon, but the attack's extra length is actually visually indicated by their model. Because their shoulder is turned and their arm is thrust out that extra length is added to the attack. So many enemies do this it is not funny. Almost every thrust is the enemy going all in, torso completely turned, freaking kung fu styles. None of this stiff robot attacks like in Dark Souls 1. They really want to kill you!
If you stare only at the weapon you get hit and think it is phantom range, but that's because to really understand enemy attacks in this game you actually need to be looking at their upper torso as well. The animations are beautiful in this respect. Some enemies even lean forwards slightly further than you'd expect when they're doing normal side to side swipes! Just to getcha.
In pvp it's lag. I've played more than one melee based game which has lag. It's classic lag range. You think you've dodged, but you actually haven't according to the server.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Nope. Invisible hitboxes everywhere. Not nearly so many as there were in Dark Souls - you can ask the speedrunners about those. But if you're going to tell me that you've never been hit by, say, the Lost Sinner after you've rolled an attack perfectly, I'm going to tell you that you're either wrong or lying.
That, or I'm older and slower than I think I am. Equally possible.
Nope. Invisible hitboxes everywhere. Not nearly so many as there were in Dark Souls - you can ask the speedrunners about those. But if you're going to tell me that you've never been hit by, say, the Lost Sinner after you've rolled an attack perfectly, I'm going to tell you that you're either wrong or lying.
That, or I'm older and slower than I think I am. Equally possible.
A sniper's heavy bolt in Andor Londo went through his ally in the middle of a fight and hit me instead.
3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Nope. Invisible hitboxes everywhere. Not nearly so many as there were in Dark Souls - you can ask the speedrunners about those. But if you're going to tell me that you've never been hit by, say, the Lost Sinner after you've rolled an attack perfectly, I'm going to tell you that you're either wrong or lying.
That, or I'm older and slower than I think I am. Equally possible.
Attack hitboxes continue until they've completely stopped swinging. I noticed that straight away. Even if their attack goes all the way around behind them, until it stops moving they can hit you.
Your rolls i-frames require you to dodge to a place their hitbox is no longer travelling through. If you roll the same direction as a swipe, too far behind them so their swipe hits you on the follow through, or away from the thrust attack, your i-frames stop while their attack is still ongoing.
Lost sinner throws that greatsword around in near 360 arcs most of the time. It's not invisibility. It's just not understanding how the mechanics of her swings actually work. You have to roll 90% away or into her side to sides (without going behind or you get hit by the follow through) and perpendicular (or into) the thrusts. You have to roll far enough away that the tip of her sword doesn't hit you. She sometimes extends her arms as well, particularly when she thrusts. You have to calculate the extra length this gives her as well.
Case in point: rolling into a thrust is safer than rolling away. You end up right next to them and the hitbox of their sword is past you. Half the time you end up past them, because they've taken a giant step, thrust their whole body forwards, their arms forwards, and you are now right behind them.
Too many people get into the mindset that enemies can only hit you once with a swing and if you phase through the swing once you are safe. Or that enemies are circular blobs who cannot morph or elongate parts of their model.
It's just not how this game works. Some enemies have extremely long arms, a normally crouched pose, and extend their arms massively when they swing. It's a visual deception and unless you know it is a deception you'll get played every time.
Like drunken kung fu, tricking you into a false sense of security.
Of course I've been hit by enemy attacks: I understood why in every case. I improved in every case. I did not have the luxury of shielding difficult attacks or estusing with armor through incoming damage. I had to learn to fight these bosses and almost never get hit.
Now Dark Souls 1? Yeah that has invisible shit all over the place. This has barely any of that kind of thing. Most of the visual bugs were enemy hurtboxes not matching up to their model in the later part of the game.
I actually had to beat most bosses with their invisible bullshit in DS1 by just estus chugging after I got hit with really high health. You can't do that in this game. You get killed.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
This game's art and writing almost had me convinced the developer was either western, or getting western consultation.
Then Gwenevere shows up.
EDIT - Then again, the West founded and perfected high-fantasy titties. See Frank Frazetta and ancient Greek art.
Cantido on
3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2014
Btw Cantido enemy attacks phase through other enemies. It's the case in every soul game. Believe me if I could make enemies kill each other I'd spend most of my time getting that to happen and giggling like a loon. It'd be so damn easy. You just bunch them up, dance close to the front one, dodge away, he takes a swing, the other enemies who are still advancing would get hit.
I could kill whole armies of Soul enemies like that.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
When a hitbox extends well beyond the visual representation of the object which is supposed to be striking you (say, a sword), we call that an invisible hitbox. If most of the hitbox is invisible, we call that silly.
Your opinion on the matter may differ, but that's mine.
And yeah, it's nothing new to Souls games. I'm thoroughly used to it, but that doesn't make it any less silly.
Well, I beat the final boss. I must not pay a lot of attention, cuz I was confused by it. I get who it was now, but there was just no impact for me when I got there.
I still have plenty to do before jumping to NG+. There's that large locked door in Shrine of Amana. I want to hit max level in Sunbros (7 to go I think?) then join Dragonbros.
I read up on an end-game farming technique that I'm debating trying out. It allows you to farm unlimited Soul Vessels. I'll probably do it for a few of them and enough souls to level up some more and upgrade weapons.
..as he runs in (again), gets smacked for most of his health while dodging in the completely wrong direction (again) before running off to heal (again) while his coop buddies actually kill the boss.
So so bad at this game, yet clearing all the content.
..as he runs in (again), gets smacked for most of his health while dodging in the completely wrong direction (again) before running off to heal (again) while his coop buddies actually kill the boss.
So so bad at this game, yet clearing all the content.
Sounds like I should just skip to the sequel.
I'm down to my last humanity trying to kill the Executioner and Dragon Slayer.
*Summoning Failed*
*Summoning Failed*
Invaded by Asshole
Killed by Asshole
*Summoning Failed*
*Summoning Failed*
*Sol is Dead*
*You are Dead*
*Summoning Failed*
EDIT - Just lost my last Humantiy. This game is hard for all the wrong fucking reasons. I'm downloading a hack.
I wish there was a way to reset bonfire intensity to whatever NG+ you're on. Now I have 3 bonfires sitting at a number one higher than everything else...
I wish there was a way to reset bonfire intensity to whatever NG+ you're on. Now I have 3 bonfires sitting at a number one higher than everything else...
In Dark Souls 1 I thought upgrading bonfires gave you some kind of buff when you rested at them so I did it all the time really early on. No wonder I gave up.
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firewaterwordSatchitanandaPais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered Userregular
I wish there was a way to reset bonfire intensity to whatever NG+ you're on. Now I have 3 bonfires sitting at a number one higher than everything else...
In Dark Souls 1 I thought upgrading bonfires gave you some kind of buff when you rested at them so I did it all the time really early on. No wonder I gave up.
It does, gives you more flask charges. They just sort of tweaked how that works in the 2nd.
Oh, awesome. I beat the plot based invasion murderer guy, but died during the fight, now the Firelink Shrine is still broken and I have no way to get back there.
@Cantido After you kill Lautrec, you should automatically receive the Fire Keeper's Soul, Ring of Favor and Protection and Humanity. That happens after you leave his realm. Check your inventory to make sure you do/don't have it.
I feel like it's both more HP and also dealing more damage when you are doing co-op, because royal aegis definitely took way more of a beating than when I fought him alone, and I feel like he did way more damage when he clipped me with an attack or two.
Depending on how skilled your summons are you might be a lot better off soloing a boss. It feels like even with one summoned player bosses have twice as much health.
I've found it's almost universally easier for me to solo bosses. It's just easier to control their patterns when you're not counting on other people to know what to do. What I'm talking about is me sunbroing in to help others on bosses, because I'm trying to finish out my Rank 3 sunbro reward.
Dark Souls 2 has convinced me that Multiplayer communities on PC/XBL/PSN go to shit when people can actively easily communicate. I PvPed for almost 4 hours last night and it was wonderful. Numerous good close matches, the odd blow out (but Rebels Greatshield owns magic I've discovered, so I can patience these people out I've discovered) and most importantly 90% of people bow and similar.
I guess at first I thought people were just silly for using the red sign, but it seems that most people are quite happy to actually use it either out of curiosity or because they are interested in some PvP for a bit.
I think this is why I got summoned constantly:
1) I always put my red soap stones near bonfires or places where there aren't enemies. So someone can wait around at the bonfire and sure enough, I'll turn up. Seriously, don't make people get into a camp war - They won't ever summon you again.
2) Whenever I get summoned, I don't hide behind monsters or similar - albeit I will take the odd pot shot if I see a player fighting creatures. If it is someone I fought before though I just stand there and watch until they are done (unless they do something stupid like attack me).
3) Unless someone casts a spell or similar, I tend to bow before a fight and I usually use friendly gestures if I win. Unless you're a caster, because good lord do I hate magic users.
Otherwise I was being summoned easily once every 2 minutes or so, sometimes even faster and I developed a dedicated fan club. I woke up to messages expressing confusion where my summon sign was! Victory achieved indeed!
Honestly I can't praise the MP enough, because while there is a good amount of lag in some of these (I've been outright unable to hit some players due to lag) it generally works as expected 99% of the time and I am probably not playing with Kiwi's or Australians (been burning midnight oil PvP wise). The fact that it works so incredibly reliably is a god send and really adds a tremendous amount to the game. Ironically though, I have a far superior record in killing players who summon me deliberately than I do from killing players I invade myself with the cracked red eye orb. I'm wondering if there is much more flexibility in soul memory or level with the red eye soap stone than the red eye orb?
Minding my biggest PvP changes happened after the red eye orbs too: I now use a claymore instead of the Zweihander and the rebel greatshield. It's not 100% physical, but the sheer amount of magic and elemental resist it has dorks all over spell casters, who I've gone from having a laughable win/loss ratio against to beating 90% of the time (as I can tank nearly all magic thrown at me trivially). I am probably going to invest in an infused claymore as well, because elemental attacks just seem to do much better in PvP than straight physical damage. I have a near 95% win rate in any PvP where I use a resin or sticky white stuff (screw the PC brigade and their new fangled name!) first compared to when I just use my straight up claymore.
I might even make an infused claymore for every occasion!
Red soap stone is generally accepted by experienced players to be for dueling in the game world, as opposed to dueling other blood bros in the arena. You get the odd newbie who doesn't know what it does or people who summon you in to gank squads, but generally if you get clicked it's because the person is down for a little fun 1v1 with you. Plus as you said, you put it near bonfires so you're making it even more convenient for people to choose to do so without too much added hassle on them even if they die.
I summon red bros for duels now and again just because hey, if they're fighting me, they're not orb invading somebody who might not be interested and i'm more likely to give them a good fun fight anyway. It's a win/win.
I too like the PVP in this game. 90% of the matches I've been disappointed with were lag-fests, and that's gotten better since then. I guess the servers were just getting hammered back then.
I don't use gestures before PVP though, ever. My VERY first PVP match went like this: Other player bows. It takes me a sec to open the menu and bow as well. Person abuses this and charges spell during the animation (I didn't know you could roll during gestures back then) and takes off almsot all my health, then takes me out easily.
I respect it when other players do it and never abuse it. But I'll raise my shield and walk in a circle going "Let's go!" to let them know that they should get ready to fight.
Outside of PVP I could not disagree with you more.
Like, it wouldn't be possible.
I would have to invent some kind of anti-sok universe, filled with "No, Sok"
Everything has a telltale.
I've never, ever been hit by an attack that did not visually connect with my characters model
It happens all the time if you are trying to dodge and have low ADP. Probably the single biggest example I can think of is the pursuers glowy blue stab attack. You can roll right 'past' to the left or right and visually it misses you but then you get teleported backwards and impaled on the weapon. OTOH with much higher ADP I reliably dodged that attack every single time it came out.
There are also a couple straightswords that don't quite match up between visual range and actual hit range. And there's one kind of wonky spell that I suspect might be similar.
Btw Cantido enemy attacks phase through other enemies. It's the case in every soul game. Believe me if I could make enemies kill each other I'd spend most of my time getting that to happen and giggling like a loon. It'd be so damn easy. You just bunch them up, dance close to the front one, dodge away, he takes a swing, the other enemies who are still advancing would get hit.
This isn't quite right. It's more like 'enemies of the same type do not damage other enemies of the same type'. Different type enemies can and do damage each other.
You can totally get Oscar to kill the black knights for you when you return to the undead asylum. He backstabs them even, if you arrange them right It's awesome
And of course, who can forget the hydra's water blasts killing the crystal golems? Or the dragon incinerating all the undead on the bridge? I'm pretty sure the stray demon can kill the two hollows that drop down through the floor with you as well.
Posts
Everything has hitboxes and hurtboxes in this game. If you whiff an attack visually, you have whiffed an attack.
Don't talk about phantom range. It's just lag. I get it too but it never happens in pve.
I get hit by whiffed attacks all the time.
Honestly, most attack animations are more like a suggestion of where hurtful stuff might be traveling.
Like, it wouldn't be possible.
I would have to invent some kind of anti-sok universe, filled with "No, Sok"
Everything has a telltale.
I've never, ever been hit by an attack that did not visually connect with my characters model, with the exception of large weapons, which have a distinctive aoe effect. (Puff of dirt coming out of the ground)
I fought everything with my fists. I was right in their face! My only option was dodging or spacing. I kind of have a lot of experience with this with every single enemy in the game. I had to memorise every major long range melee enemies tell tale. It simply was not possible to get past them otherwise.
Lots of thrust attacks hit you in pve because the enemies extend their entire arm, shoulder thrust forwards. It looks initially like they are randomly extending their weapon, but the attack's extra length is actually visually indicated by their model. Because their shoulder is turned and their arm is thrust out that extra length is added to the attack. So many enemies do this it is not funny. Almost every thrust is the enemy going all in, torso completely turned, freaking kung fu styles. None of this stiff robot attacks like in Dark Souls 1. They really want to kill you!
If you stare only at the weapon you get hit and think it is phantom range, but that's because to really understand enemy attacks in this game you actually need to be looking at their upper torso as well. The animations are beautiful in this respect. Some enemies even lean forwards slightly further than you'd expect when they're doing normal side to side swipes! Just to getcha.
In pvp it's lag. I've played more than one melee based game which has lag. It's classic lag range. You think you've dodged, but you actually haven't according to the server.
That, or I'm older and slower than I think I am. Equally possible.
A sniper's heavy bolt in Andor Londo went through his ally in the middle of a fight and hit me instead.
Attack hitboxes continue until they've completely stopped swinging. I noticed that straight away. Even if their attack goes all the way around behind them, until it stops moving they can hit you.
Your rolls i-frames require you to dodge to a place their hitbox is no longer travelling through. If you roll the same direction as a swipe, too far behind them so their swipe hits you on the follow through, or away from the thrust attack, your i-frames stop while their attack is still ongoing.
Lost sinner throws that greatsword around in near 360 arcs most of the time. It's not invisibility. It's just not understanding how the mechanics of her swings actually work. You have to roll 90% away or into her side to sides (without going behind or you get hit by the follow through) and perpendicular (or into) the thrusts. You have to roll far enough away that the tip of her sword doesn't hit you. She sometimes extends her arms as well, particularly when she thrusts. You have to calculate the extra length this gives her as well.
Case in point: rolling into a thrust is safer than rolling away. You end up right next to them and the hitbox of their sword is past you. Half the time you end up past them, because they've taken a giant step, thrust their whole body forwards, their arms forwards, and you are now right behind them.
Too many people get into the mindset that enemies can only hit you once with a swing and if you phase through the swing once you are safe. Or that enemies are circular blobs who cannot morph or elongate parts of their model.
It's just not how this game works. Some enemies have extremely long arms, a normally crouched pose, and extend their arms massively when they swing. It's a visual deception and unless you know it is a deception you'll get played every time.
Like drunken kung fu, tricking you into a false sense of security.
Of course I've been hit by enemy attacks: I understood why in every case. I improved in every case. I did not have the luxury of shielding difficult attacks or estusing with armor through incoming damage. I had to learn to fight these bosses and almost never get hit.
Now Dark Souls 1? Yeah that has invisible shit all over the place. This has barely any of that kind of thing. Most of the visual bugs were enemy hurtboxes not matching up to their model in the later part of the game.
I actually had to beat most bosses with their invisible bullshit in DS1 by just estus chugging after I got hit with really high health. You can't do that in this game. You get killed.
Then Gwenevere shows up.
EDIT - Then again, the West founded and perfected high-fantasy titties. See Frank Frazetta and ancient Greek art.
I could kill whole armies of Soul enemies like that.
Your opinion on the matter may differ, but that's mine.
And yeah, it's nothing new to Souls games. I'm thoroughly used to it, but that doesn't make it any less silly.
I still have plenty to do before jumping to NG+. There's that large locked door in Shrine of Amana. I want to hit max level in Sunbros (7 to go I think?) then join Dragonbros.
I read up on an end-game farming technique that I'm debating trying out. It allows you to farm unlimited Soul Vessels. I'll probably do it for a few of them and enough souls to level up some more and upgrade weapons.
..as he runs in (again), gets smacked for most of his health while dodging in the completely wrong direction (again) before running off to heal (again) while his coop buddies actually kill the boss.
So so bad at this game, yet clearing all the content.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Sounds like I should just skip to the sequel.
I'm down to my last humanity trying to kill the Executioner and Dragon Slayer.
*Summoning Failed*
*Summoning Failed*
Invaded by Asshole
Killed by Asshole
*Summoning Failed*
*Summoning Failed*
*Sol is Dead*
*You are Dead*
*Summoning Failed*
EDIT - Just lost my last Humantiy. This game is hard for all the wrong fucking reasons. I'm downloading a hack.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Oh. He's being mauled by Snorlax and Pikachu.
@Cantido: hardest fight in the game, man. We've all been there. Pyromancy is the way to go if you're having trouble meleeing them.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Steam ID: 76561198021298113
Origin ID: SR71C_Blackbird
In Dark Souls 1 I thought upgrading bonfires gave you some kind of buff when you rested at them so I did it all the time really early on. No wonder I gave up.
It does, gives you more flask charges. They just sort of tweaked how that works in the 2nd.
I've found it's almost universally easier for me to solo bosses. It's just easier to control their patterns when you're not counting on other people to know what to do. What I'm talking about is me sunbroing in to help others on bosses, because I'm trying to finish out my Rank 3 sunbro reward.
Red soap stone is generally accepted by experienced players to be for dueling in the game world, as opposed to dueling other blood bros in the arena. You get the odd newbie who doesn't know what it does or people who summon you in to gank squads, but generally if you get clicked it's because the person is down for a little fun 1v1 with you. Plus as you said, you put it near bonfires so you're making it even more convenient for people to choose to do so without too much added hassle on them even if they die.
I summon red bros for duels now and again just because hey, if they're fighting me, they're not orb invading somebody who might not be interested and i'm more likely to give them a good fun fight anyway. It's a win/win.
I don't use gestures before PVP though, ever. My VERY first PVP match went like this: Other player bows. It takes me a sec to open the menu and bow as well. Person abuses this and charges spell during the animation (I didn't know you could roll during gestures back then) and takes off almsot all my health, then takes me out easily.
I respect it when other players do it and never abuse it. But I'll raise my shield and walk in a circle going "Let's go!" to let them know that they should get ready to fight.
Steam ID: 76561198021298113
Origin ID: SR71C_Blackbird
It happens all the time if you are trying to dodge and have low ADP. Probably the single biggest example I can think of is the pursuers glowy blue stab attack. You can roll right 'past' to the left or right and visually it misses you but then you get teleported backwards and impaled on the weapon. OTOH with much higher ADP I reliably dodged that attack every single time it came out.
There are also a couple straightswords that don't quite match up between visual range and actual hit range. And there's one kind of wonky spell that I suspect might be similar.
This isn't quite right. It's more like 'enemies of the same type do not damage other enemies of the same type'. Different type enemies can and do damage each other.
You can totally get Oscar to kill the black knights for you when you return to the undead asylum. He backstabs them even, if you arrange them right
And of course, who can forget the hydra's water blasts killing the crystal golems? Or the dragon incinerating all the undead on the bridge? I'm pretty sure the stray demon can kill the two hollows that drop down through the floor with you as well.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion