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[Agents of Shield] Thread is under quarantine for potential Captain America 2 spoilers!

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Shield specifically invaded a foreign nation to destroy a superweapon that would have changed the balance of power in the region. Coulson's team also went "Butts to that" when they ran into the fact that a sovereign nation, who has specifically told SHIELD to fuck off forever, was harboring a guy who was selling Chitauri parts.

  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Shield specifically invaded a foreign nation to destroy a superweapon that would have changed the balance of power in the region. Coulson's team also went "Butts to that" when they ran into the fact that a sovereign nation, who has specifically told SHIELD to fuck off forever, was harboring a guy who was selling Chitauri parts.

    Those are the kinds of things that bring up some interesting questions that I think the show should deal with. Like, who decides the level of technology that SHIELD should allow governments/people to have?

    I doubt that SHIELD stopped Operation Paperclip, where the United States recruited a bunch of Nazi scientists, many of them war criminals. Heck, SHIELD captured a Nazi/Hydra scientist of their own in the first Captain America movie. So who gives SHIELD the authority to stop another country from doing that exact same thing?

  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Shield specifically invaded a foreign nation to destroy a superweapon that would have changed the balance of power in the region. Coulson's team also went "Butts to that" when they ran into the fact that a sovereign nation, who has specifically told SHIELD to fuck off forever, was harboring a guy who was selling Chitauri parts.
    Those are the kinds of things that bring up some interesting questions that I think the show should deal with. Like, who decides the level of technology that SHIELD should allow governments/people to have?

    I doubt that SHIELD stopped Operation Paperclip, where the United States recruited a bunch of Nazi scientists, many of them war criminals. Heck, SHIELD captured a Nazi/Hydra scientist of their own in the first Captain America movie. So who gives SHIELD the authority to stop another country from doing that exact same thing?
    SHIELD didn't exist as an autonomous entity during WWII. They were a branch of the US government.

    Now, though? Directory Fury, I'd presume.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    SHIELD didn't to exist during WW2, that was the SSR.

  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    And Operation Paperclip didn't just end after WW2. They were still recruiting scientists for several years after the war. Not to mention how those Nazi scientists worked for the US government for years, sometimes decades.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    The second episode was politically motivated. They stole a piece of technology from a sovereign power. The episode where Hand sent Ward and Fitz on a mission was politically motivated. They sabotaged a separatist movement that was trying to gain independence from Russia.

    And I don't expect SHIELD to be free of corruption. However, I do expect people to question some of the shady things they're asked to do. Heck, recently on Arrow, you had a shadowy government agency that tried to something that was clearly wrong and people questioned it, stopped it, and plenty of viewers pointed out how ridiculous Waller's plan was.

    The separatist movement had no sovereign power, they weren't a government. SHIELD didn't give a shit about the politics in the region, their goal was purely about making sure the weapon was contained. SHIELD had no dog on either side of the infighting there. Had it been the Russian government that did that they'd have probably done the same thing.

    Coulson's SHIELD is nothing like Waller's Suicide Squad. That entire operation was fucked up to begin with and off the books. They don't blow up innocent people without hesitation to get a target.
    Shield specifically invaded a foreign nation to destroy a superweapon that would have changed the balance of power in the region. Coulson's team also went "Butts to that" when they ran into the fact that a sovereign nation, who has specifically told SHIELD to fuck off forever, was harboring a guy who was selling Chitauri parts.

    They did that on their own. Had they been caught they'd have been disavowed and utterly fucked. Not acting meant the entire region would have been destroyed by Franklin Hall, or worse Ian Quinn would have sold that technology on the black market. Infiltrating sovereign territories spies aren't allowed to enter is a old trope that is mined by spy fiction. IMF did it in Mission: Impossible 3 to capture Owen Davian, James Bond caused an international incident at an embassy in Casino Royale.

    Harry Dresden on
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    The second episode was politically motivated. They stole a piece of technology from a sovereign power. The episode where Hand sent Ward and Fitz on a mission was politically motivated. They sabotaged a separatist movement that was trying to gain independence from Russia.

    And I don't expect SHIELD to be free of corruption. However, I do expect people to question some of the shady things they're asked to do. Heck, recently on Arrow, you had a shadowy government agency that tried to something that was clearly wrong and people questioned it, stopped it, and plenty of viewers pointed out how ridiculous Waller's plan was.

    The separatist movement had no sovereign power, they weren't a government. SHIELD didn't give a shit about the politics in the region, their goal was purely about making sure the weapon was contained. SHIELD had no dog on either side of the infighting there. Had it been the Russian government that did that they'd have probably done the same thing.

    SHIELD's actions don't exist in a vacuum; whether they intended it or not, their actions have affects in the greater world. One man's terrorists are another man's freedom fighter, after all; but removing the Overkill device from those people (who, in theory, were in perfectly legal rights to own such a device; I don't think they stole it from anybody) SHIELD has an effect on the political landscape.

    Also, I doubt they would have gone after it if the Russians controlled it. Even if the Russians aren't on the World Security Council that ostensibly controls SHIELD (and I'd be surprised if they weren't). I'm sure they wouldn't go after the US or UK governments if they had similar tech.
    Coulson's SHIELD is nothing like Waller's Suicide Squad. That entire operation was fucked up to begin with and off the books. They don't blow up innocent people without hesitation to get a target.
    Shield specifically invaded a foreign nation to destroy a superweapon that would have changed the balance of power in the region. Coulson's team also went "Butts to that" when they ran into the fact that a sovereign nation, who has specifically told SHIELD to fuck off forever, was harboring a guy who was selling Chitauri parts.

    They did that on their own. Had they been caught they'd have been disavowed and utterly fucked. Not acting meant the entire region would have been destroyed by Franklin Hall, or worse Ian Quinn would have sold that technology on the black market. Infiltrating sovereign territories spies aren't allowed to enter is a old trope that is mined by spy fiction. IMF did it in Mission: Impossible 3 to capture Owen Davian, James Bond caused an international incident at an embassy in Casino Royale.

    Yeah, people aren't as keen on the "government agency with unlimited powers" idea these days as they were in years past. Going "Well, Bond and other spies do that" isn't a good argument. Times have changed, and people are pissed off at governments overstepping authority.

    And of course good stuff resulted from them doing that shit: it's fiction and they're the good guys. Doesn't make it right.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    The second episode was politically motivated. They stole a piece of technology from a sovereign power. The episode where Hand sent Ward and Fitz on a mission was politically motivated. They sabotaged a separatist movement that was trying to gain independence from Russia.

    And I don't expect SHIELD to be free of corruption. However, I do expect people to question some of the shady things they're asked to do. Heck, recently on Arrow, you had a shadowy government agency that tried to something that was clearly wrong and people questioned it, stopped it, and plenty of viewers pointed out how ridiculous Waller's plan was.

    The separatist movement had no sovereign power, they weren't a government. SHIELD didn't give a shit about the politics in the region, their goal was purely about making sure the weapon was contained. SHIELD had no dog on either side of the infighting there. Had it been the Russian government that did that they'd have probably done the same thing.

    Coulson's SHIELD is nothing like Waller's Suicide Squad. That entire operation was fucked up to begin with and off the books. They don't blow up innocent people without hesitation to get a target.

    South Ossetia tried to declare independence from Georgia and two wars were fought over it. So even if SHIELD doesn't care about the politics, they involved themselves in an extremely contentious political situation where their actions would have major political consequences that will favor on side of the conflict.

    And how do you know that SHIELD would have done the same thing to Russia? So far, we've only seen SHIELD push around small countries who can't fight back. Do you honestly think that they'll risk pissing off a nation with a huge military and nuclear weapons, who probably also provides SHIELD with lots of funding?

    Also, those kinds of things shows a lot of potential for SHIELD to be manipulated. It would be pretty easy for a country to have SHIELD eliminate their political enemies for them if all they have to do is secretly give their enemy some banned tech.

    Harry Dresden
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    The Cap2 Movie addresses Shield and its problems in detail.

    That's why the show can't really clarify a lot of the Issues raised here. Their hands are tied by forces beyond the show's control. Its a weakness in the shows design, its the B-side to the Movies A-side. The really important MCU events are the movies, AOS is the janitorial staff.
    For instance: When Agent Sitwell leaves the show, he is to head to a ship called the Lemurian Star. That is where the the Cap2 movie starts(Sitwell is in it). We don't see what happens there on the show, but since the Cap2 movie focuses on Shield, it will impact the show greatly. Which the show can't show us. Rendering AOS useless to a Shield story.

    ElJeffe on
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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Dude, spoilers.

    ElJeffeDelmainEvigilant
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Yeah, seriously guys. I now know more than I wanted to about the movie and am rather grumpy about it.

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  • ReynoldsReynolds Raving Rabbit Registered User regular
    When they said that one agent's name was Triplett, this was who I immediately thought of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delroy_Garrett I thought Triathlon ended up betraying the Avengers at one point, but I must be thinking of someone else.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Reading Comics Alliance's review of the most recent episode, he brings up a pretty good point
    Ward needs to be thrown in jail. Even in the best circumstances, he shot an unarmed, paralyzed man who was essentially in SHIELD custody at that point. (Not technically, but given there was a half dozen agents there, and the dude said he surrendered, I'll call it good enough.) under no pretext other than he was saying inflammatory things.

    That is straight up murder.

    Add in the fact that he may not have been the Clairvoyant at all, and Ward just executed an innocent man. Unless he's mind controlled or something, he needs to go away for a long time.

    Harry DresdenQuid
  • ReynoldsReynolds Raving Rabbit Registered User regular
    Reading Comics Alliance's review of the most recent episode, he brings up a pretty good point
    Ward needs to be thrown in jail. Even in the best circumstances, he shot an unarmed, paralyzed man who was essentially in SHIELD custody at that point. (Not technically, but given there was a half dozen agents there, and the dude said he surrendered, I'll call it good enough.) under no pretext other than he was saying inflammatory things.

    That is straight up murder.

    Add in the fact that he may not have been the Clairvoyant at all, and Ward just executed an innocent man. Unless he's mind controlled or something, he needs to go away for a long time.

    I think, in that situation, it's basically like...
    Shooting Cyclops or Magneto or etc. They might not have a gun, but they could be considered to be armed with 'something' that is capable of deadly force. He's demonstrated that he (as far as they knew) has some sort of ability to cause injury or death, and he was threatening to use it.

    This is all thrown out the window after, but as far as Ward (and most of them) were concerned (at the moment), he basically had a gun to Skye's head and was telling them he was going to pull the trigger. There's also a really good chance he would have escaped, or wanted access to the Fridge for some reason, etc. He was goaded and emotional, but he still did his job. the reason he's not going to jail is because that's what he's there for...to go out and shoot people. He's going before a review board, because this is probably not the first time an agent has shot someone in the field under less than clear circumstances. They obviously have procedures for this because it's come up often enough.

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Reading Comics Alliance's review of the most recent episode, he brings up a pretty good point
    Ward needs to be thrown in jail. Even in the best circumstances, he shot an unarmed, paralyzed man who was essentially in SHIELD custody at that point. (Not technically, but given there was a half dozen agents there, and the dude said he surrendered, I'll call it good enough.) under no pretext other than he was saying inflammatory things.

    That is straight up murder.

    Add in the fact that he may not have been the Clairvoyant at all, and Ward just executed an innocent man. Unless he's mind controlled or something, he needs to go away for a long time.
    That last sentence.
    One of Blake's powers was the ability to influence people around him.

    There's also the possibility that Ward was ordered to do it.

    They left several outs.

    Reynolds
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Just watched the most recent episode.

    Someone explain to me why
    Head Lady at Shield wants to kill everyone on the plane.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Just watched the most recent episode.

    Someone explain to me why
    Head Lady at Shield wants to kill everyone on the plane.
    Because cliffhanger?

    She might be the Clairvoyant, or working for the clairvoyant, or part of some other stuff that's going down soon.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    SHIELD's actions don't exist in a vacuum; whether they intended it or not, their actions have affects in the greater world. One man's terrorists are another man's freedom fighter, after all; but removing the Overkill device from those people (who, in theory, were in perfectly legal rights to own such a device; I don't think they stole it from anybody) SHIELD has an effect on the political landscape.

    SHIELD has an effect on the political landscape which is not their intent, with exceptions - like the nations who are in the World Security Council. Ian Quinn had legal rights for the gravity machine, would you have preferred SHIELD not acted against him? The show hasn't gone into detail with the political atmosphere in foreign countries, it's left ambiguous. Having legally obtained or created advanced technology still means people can be targeted by SHIELD when they find it. We still don't know all the legal background with SHIELD, AoS is still in its early days to flesh out that stuff.
    Also, I doubt they would have gone after it if the Russians controlled it. Even if the Russians aren't on the World Security Council that ostensibly controls SHIELD (and I'd be surprised if they weren't). I'm sure they wouldn't go after the US or UK governments if they had similar tech.

    True.
    Yeah, people aren't as keen on the "government agency with unlimited powers" idea these days as they were in years past. Going "Well, Bond and other spies do that" isn't a good argument. Times have changed, and people are pissed off at governments overstepping authority.

    The IMF and James Bond examples are not from the past, Casino Royale and M:I 3 were made in 2006. No one batted an eye when those movies did it, why should this show have different standards? Times haven't changed that much with fictional spies in media.
    And of course good stuff resulted from them doing that shit: it's fiction and they're the good guys. Doesn't make it right.

    It's a staple for spy fiction. Vigilantes are illegal in real life, super-heroes like Batman are insanely popular regardless - same rules apply.

    Harry Dresden on
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    2006 is not 2013. Times change rather rapidly now. We didn't have public NSA scandals and irrational drone fears then.

  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Just watched the most recent episode.

    Someone explain to me why
    Head Lady at Shield wants to kill everyone on the plane.
    Meta-spoilers
    Victoria Hand was the subdirector of SHIELD when Norman Osborn took over. He was a crazy evil, but Hand was just doing her job. If she's been ordered to detain or kill Coulson and the Coul-bettes, she'd do it.

  • Slacker1913Slacker1913 Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Just watched the most recent episode.

    Someone explain to me why
    Head Lady at Shield wants to kill everyone on the plane.
    Meta-spoilers
    Victoria Hand was the subdirector of SHIELD when Norman Osborn took over. He was a crazy evil, but Hand was just doing her job. If she's been ordered to detain or kill Coulson and the Coul-bettes, she'd do it.
    She could also, quite reasonably, believe everyone on the plane has been compromised.

    Eh, I'll get around to it.
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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Ok, so I didn't miss anything then. We aren't supposed to know why she said that at the end of the show. cool

    Shadowen
  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    2006 is not 2013. Times change rather rapidly now. We didn't have public NSA scandals and irrational drone fears then.
    Scandals and fears are temporary, it doesn't make the programs (SHIELD, in this case) any less necessary.

  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    You guys are trying to put realism in my comic book show/movie about a public/secret government organization.

    Stop it! :P

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  • Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    2006 is not 2013. Times change rather rapidly now. We didn't have public NSA scandals and irrational drone fears then.

    Misson: Impossible 4 was 2011
    Skyfall was 2012
    Splinter Cell: Blacklist was 2013

    the first two have sequels in the works and a Splinter Cell movie is in development*. each of these deal with shadowy government agencies and their actions. you could argue that Skyfall was a comment against some of those practices but that's not going to stop them making Bond films.

    also Person of Interest started in 2011 and is still running.

    people are able to separate entertainment from reality and enjoy fictional depictions of things they would not stand for in real life.

    *i'm sure the game series will continue too.

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  • EntaruEntaru Goddess with a blade Registered User regular
    Marvel comics has been dealing with Civil Rights issues and government overstep for forever. I'd honestly be very surprised if that recurrent theme didn't pop up often in the MCU going forward.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I consider the fact that SHIELD is morally ambiguous and exists in a poorly-understood (by us) gray area of dubious legality to be a feature, not a bug. Especially given what's expected to go down in the near future.

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    2006 is not 2013. Times change rather rapidly now. We didn't have public NSA scandals and irrational drone fears then.

    Most people don't give a shit about those things. Its a internet subculture thing

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    The Clairvoyant:
    Is Ultron, maybe? Or proto-Ultron?

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    poshniallo wrote: »
    The Clairvoyant:
    Is Ultron, maybe? Or proto-Ultron?
    I really, really doubt it.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    poshniallo wrote: »
    The Clairvoyant:
    Is Ultron, maybe? Or proto-Ultron?
    I really, really doubt it.

    That's still my theory, and I'm going to stubbornly stick to it until it's so painfully obvious that I'm incorrect that I embarrass people just by bringing it up.

    So there.

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  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    The Clairvoyant:
    Is Ultron, maybe? Or proto-Ultron?
    I really, really doubt it.

    That's still my theory, and I'm going to stubbornly stick to it until it's so painfully obvious that I'm incorrect that I embarrass people just by bringing it up.

    So there.

    Can't wait to rub it in your face.

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  • Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    just want to point out the amazing little fact of Fitz developing the tracker bullets for tracking 'a wild monkey, in case it gets away from you'. :)

    don't ever change Fitz. not ever.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    just want to point out the amazing little fact of Fitz developing the tracker bullets for tracking 'a wild monkey, in case it gets away from you'. :)

    don't ever change Fitz. not ever.

    I'm surprised you waited this long to mention that.

    jdarksun
  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    It was one of my favorite points in the ep.

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  • Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    just want to point out the amazing little fact of Fitz developing the tracker bullets for tracking 'a wild monkey, in case it gets away from you'. :)

    don't ever change Fitz. not ever.

    I'm surprised you waited this long to mention that.

    got distracted and had to go back and make sure i got the quote right. i was delighted to hear it. been to long since he last brought up the subject.

  • ComradebotComradebot Lord of Dinosaurs Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    The Clairvoyant is totally...
    Sitwell.

    Like, not even joking, it's Sitwell. Because right now he just looks like he's the unassuming guy who is there for the sake of being there.

  • ComradebotComradebot Lord of Dinosaurs Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    Cap 2 Spoilers
    Well, nevermind, just accidentally spoiled myself that he can't be. Whoops.

  • Mego ThorMego Thor "I say thee...NAY!" Registered User regular
    He was just really, really mad that Simmons shot him in the chest.

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This discussion has been closed.