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Insane in the Ukraine, OR, Not So Chicken Kiev?

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    JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    Generally what I hear about Taiwan is that reunification is more or less a matter of time before it happens and China is perfectly willing to wait for it to happen.

    Its places like western china that's more of an issue.

    Especially since China and Taiwan have mutually restarted economic ties like allowing investment in each others' companies and direct travel.

    The most likely flareup with China is over islands and exclusive economic zones.

    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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    Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    Skeith wrote: »
    Have we gone over how this might relate to China and Taiwan? Interesting to consider.

    It doesn't, except in that China might make a play for it if the U.S. became heavily entangled in Europe

    The ROC and PRC both claim to be the same entity, Ukraine and Russia claim to be separate nations, with one further asserting whole or partial sovereignty over the other

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    Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    Generally what I hear about Taiwan is that reunification is more or less a matter of time before it happens and China is perfectly willing to wait for it to happen.

    Its places like western china that's more of an issue.

    Especially since China and Taiwan have mutually restarted economic ties like allowing investment in each others' companies and direct travel.

    The most likely flareup with China is over islands and exclusive economic zones.

    Right, that's what I was forgetting about. Stuff like the Spratley Islands and their recent tantruming over exclusive airspace.

    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
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    GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    so you remember when I said Putin won't try to annex the entire country for lack of a claim

    Putin claims Ukrainian withdrawal from USSR "not quite legitimate"

    Goddamnit.
    If Putin tries this either he's right in his (apparent) assumption that neither the US or any major player in Europe will offer military or even financial assistance to Ukraine and he'll eventually seize all of Ukraine (Although I am kind of doubtful about what Russia's long term ability to actually hold onto the land would be, not getting into how much difficulty Russia would have totally subduing the Ukrainian armed forces.), or he's wrong about previously mentioned assumption and this might escalate to the point of putting Russian/European+US relations back into Cold War levels of frostiness. Either way Putin would be starting the first large-scale war between two heavily industrialized nations in decades. Which, you know, is pretty awful.

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    Generally what I hear about Taiwan is that reunification is more or less a matter of time before it happens and China is perfectly willing to wait for it to happen.

    Its places like western china that's more of an issue.

    Uh

    I dunno who you've been talking to

    but there is a very very significant percentage of people that want China to fuck right off.

    The current Chinese government has never run a damn thing in Taiwan, and their current influence is negligible, if present at all.

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    GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    There are tons of differences between the relations of China/Taiwan and the relations of Russia/Ukraine. Perhaps the biggest differences between the two situations are that Taiwan only managed to maintain its independence due to the protection of the US and that the Taiwan/China split wasn't considered legal by either party at the time (Although the government of Taiwan eventually changed their minds on that issue once they realized they had no chance in hell of ever regaining control of mainland China.), while Ukraine's vote to become independent following the Soviet Union was accepted legally.

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    sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited March 2014
    Further worth mentioning that the governments in charge of both China and Taiwan don't look anything like the governments that were in charge when the split first occurred!

    For starters, the Taiwanese Government is now actually legitimately elected!

    (And it only took them until 1981 to get started on that!)




    Taiwan's history is fascinating and heart-wrenching and I love that little island and the many different people that live there so much.

    sarukun on
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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    edited March 2014
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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Agh I can't edit on the mobile site

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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Quick summary of recent events from The Guardian:
    Russia vetoed a UN security council motion declaring the Crimea referendum invalid.

    China abstained, 13 others voted in favour.

    Ukraine says it repelled a detachment of Russian troops in southern Ukraine, north of Crimea.

    Russian foreign ministry says it is considering the requests of Russian speaking Ukrainians for Russian protection from persecution.

    France says next stage of sanctions against Russia will be on military co-operation.

    Also, from Reuters:
    UKRAINIAN MILITARY REPELS ATTEMPT BY RUSSIAN FORCES TO ENTER REGION ADJACENT TO CRIMEA-UKRAINE’S DEFENCE MINISTRY

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    TankHammerTankHammer Atlanta Ghostbuster Atlanta, GARegistered User regular
    edited March 2014
    At this point it would actually be a relief for something to just go one way or another here. I feel like I'm in an anxiety pressure-cooker.

    Is it too much to ask for Putin to pull a Sadam Hussein and just go "Oh, nothing to see here, never mind!" and march his troops home while pretending it was one big overblown western misunderstanding?

    TankHammer on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Well certainly tensions aren't going down

    I wonder if Putin is going to call NATOs bluff?

    I wonder if it is a bluff?

    Poland have said they won't stand by and, well, I believe that. Poland tends to be very keen in these circumstances.

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    GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Besides the unethical and unlawful nature of Russia's actions, allowing Putin to do this (If he continues to ramp up military action in what can only appear as preparing an attempt to invade Ukraine.) also sets a bad precedent and may encourage him to pull future stunts in the future. It (rightfully) puts the rest of eastern Europe on edge, and is yet another example of the flaws and weaknesses of the UN. (Namely in this case that the whole "members of the Security Council get veto powers" thing continues to be hinder the UN's ability to respond to unlawful military action.)

    Now, I'm almost completely certain that Putin doesn't want this to escalate uncontrollably. I suspect, as has been suggested before, that the recent Russian aggression on Ukraine's border is an attempt to make Crimean annexation seem like the lesser of two evils. I continue to find it hard to believe Putin would actually invade and attempt to annex the entirety of Ukraine, both because it'd be a logistical nightmare and because it'd put the rest of Europe in a position where they'd be hard-pressed to not escalate the conflict. I don't know where the line in the sand is exactly, but that definitely feels like that would be crossing it.

    China abstaining seems like a pragmatic move in that they realized Russia was just going to veto the UN motion, and this way they can more easily stay out of it without antagonizing anyone.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I find it hard to believe that Putin would invade the Ukraine because the Ukrainian army is no pushover, and the Russian economic ability to support an army engaged like that is rather unstable. That isn't to say that he wouldn't do it, just that there are reasons why they'd not be able to actually call that bluff if the Ukraine attempted to retain the Crimea by force.

    I agree that he's probably being aggressive to try and get away with the Crimea by itself, though. But it does depend on the Ukraine's response. If they don't budge, then this could get even hotter.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Yeah, I'm kind of at the "Shit or get off the pot already" phase of this waiting game. Seeing the Sword of Damocles hang over 40 million people every day is tiring.

    Admittedly the popular wisdom right now is they're waiting until Crimea votes to join* before they move one way or the other. Will they go further? Well they've certainly been posturing like they might. Between saying they need to consider protesters'** requests for Russia to come in, and the hint that Ukrainian Succession from the USSR "wasn't entirely legal".

    I don't even get why they resorted to this, beyond vague feelings of paranoia and pride. They could probably have got what they wanted through applying the economic squeeze first and watch the Kiev Government collapse.

    *Yes, I have that little faith in any other decision happening. Between a referendum being organised in ten days and the promise to have the results within two hours of polls closing, I treat the outcome as a foregone conclusion.

    **All those pro-Russian people in Kharkiv and Donetsk who totally weren't either paid or bussed in.

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    Peter EbelPeter Ebel CopenhagenRegistered User regular
    Ugh, Christ in shit, fuck you, Putin.

    Fuck off and die.
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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Welp, here we go

    Crimea votes to secede from Ukraine in 'illegal' poll
    Crimea voted to secede from Ukraine in a referendum that most of the world has condemned as illegal. Early results – when 50% of the votes were counted – showed that 95.5% of ballots were in favour of joining Russia.

    As the results rolled in, they were met with neither surprise nor welcome by the west. Russian president Vladimir Putin told Barack Obama in a phone call on Sunday night that the referendum endorsing Crimea becoming part of Russia was legal and should be accepted, according to the Kremlin. However, Obama said that the US rejected the results and warned that Washington was ready to impose sanctions on Moscow over the crisis.

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    M.D.M.D. and then what happens? Registered User regular
    edited March 2014
    It is illegal because Ukrainian law says if a section wants to secede the entire country has to vote on it, not just the part that wants to leave. As far as I understand it, the vote only went to some Ukrainians in Crimea, and even then the tartars and a few others were left out.

    M.D. on
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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    edited March 2014
    Not to mention that the choices were "join Russia" and "leave Ukraine" and that 95% is a hilariously fake result for any polling question.

    Centipede Damascus on
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    Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    Yeah, 95% of people can't agree on shit, let alone important decisions.

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    UbikUbik oh pete, that's later. maybe we'll be dead by then Registered User regular
    i mean at most you're gonna get 4 out of 5 dentists to agree on gum

    l8e1peic77w3.jpg

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    Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Ubik wrote: »
    i mean at most you're gonna get 4 out of 5 dentists to agree on gum

    There is a comedic panel show on tv in Australia called the Gruen Transfer. They had a segment where they talked about claims like that in adverts, and they registered a business name "Nine out of ten experts", then offered to agree with anyone, for a nominal fee of course!

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    Indie WinterIndie Winter die Krähe Rudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered User regular
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    Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    A NEW DOGE! MAKE MY TOTAL WAR GAME A REALITY!

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    A NEW DOGE! MAKE MY TOTAL WAR GAME A REALITY!

    I'm sorry, I had to find it:

    post-35181-his-lordship-wow-art-the-doge-56yN.jpeg

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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    So independence

    Much self-determination

    Wow

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    theSquidtheSquid Sydney, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    I have no idea why I find that meme hilarious, I honestly don't.

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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Many of the Tatars and pro-Ukrainians boycotted the vote anyway. There was also a neat thing going around Twitter showing a Russian citizen, reporting for the UK, who was allowed to vote.

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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited March 2014
    There was no option on the ballot to support the status quo (whoops, like Centi already said). Also, the voting wasn't done in secret in at least a few places.

    Platy on
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    XehalusXehalus Registered User regular
    edited March 2014
    so Russia is just doing their version of the UN as far as protecting civilians

    they are running the Olympics

    Xehalus on
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    Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    so russia is just making up reasons to invade the crimea, in the most transparent fashion imaginable

    does that have any impact on anybody, aside from actual russians? can barack obama just, like, give a speech calling him out on it and explaining that economic sanctions will continue as planned?

    because it seems like the only thing preventing putin from straight-up militarily annexing the whole of eastern europe is fear of western reprisal. i guess the question i'm asking (and that i honestly don't know the answer to) is, does a fake referendum has any real impact on NATO countries' ability to or likelihood of issuing economic sanctions, or whatever tools it is that are available to them?

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    so russia is just making up reasons to invade the crimea, in the most transparent fashion imaginable

    does that have any impact on anybody, aside from actual russians? can barack obama just, like, give a speech calling him out on it and explaining that economic sanctions will continue as planned?

    because it seems like the only thing preventing putin from straight-up militarily annexing the whole of eastern europe is fear of western reprisal. i guess the question i'm asking (and that i honestly don't know the answer to) is, does a fake referendum has any real impact on NATO countries' ability to or likelihood of issuing economic sanctions, or whatever tools it is that are available to them?

    The US, UK, France, Canada and (I think) Germany have rejected the referendum because it was neither fair nor free, and held with foreign troops on the ground. They're not going to let the referendum put them off.

    Not that Putin cares. Lots of this is a show for the internal Russian audience.

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    Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular

    What the fuck is going on, world

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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    I learned today that Russia invited representatives of European far-right parties to act as "observers" during the referendum. Among those observers was a guy who was convicted of re-engagement in National Socialist activities in an Austrian court.

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    PiptheFairPiptheFair Frequently not in boats. Registered User regular
    continue to do exactly what you are doing ukraine

    make putin look like a bigger idiot please

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    BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Yeah as much of a clusterfuck as this is, Ukraine is handling it remarkably well

    CYpGAPn.png
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    LabelLabel Registered User regular
    edited March 2014

    that article seemed poor quality to me. some interesting stuff on the fascist section, but i felt some of the rest of it was slanted, or making unfounded leading assumptions.

    Label on
This discussion has been closed.