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Cosmos, with Neil DeGrasse Tyson - In which we learn that FOX is not the same as Fox News

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Posts

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    It almost never really seems to be as cut and dry as those cases. It's pretty hard to determine sometimes if they intentionally compromised their research or if they were swayed by their preconceived notions.

    There are some criteria that can used to make strong cases for intentional fraud:


    1) Did you use results in a study that appear to have been faked in order to pass peer review?
    2) Did you use your apparently faked study results as a lobbying platform for an ideological cause?
    3) Did you accept money/gifts as a result of the above?


    If [y], hi there, we'll be taking back that PhD. You'll get an invoice in the mail for the sum of money you took from the government in order to bake-up a fake study that ultimately hurt public interests.


    Also, I don't particularly care if you were 'swayed' by your own political ideology and the money wasn't the sole reason that you faked a study. The result's the same.

    #3 usually happens regardless of whether 1or2 happened as well. Most scientific research is done in the name of grants, prizes, books or future profit. If getting money for doing research was an absolute sign of dishonesty, then no one would have their hands clean.

  • BYToadyBYToady Registered User regular
    We wouldn't have scientists because they need to eat food too.

    Still.

    Come on scientists, figure out how to elevate yourselves above common bodily needs already.

    Battletag BYToady#1454
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    #3 usually happens regardless of whether 1or2 happened as well. Most scientific research is done in the name of grants, prizes, books or future profit. If getting money for doing research was an absolute sign of dishonesty, then no one would have their hands clean.

    I'm not saying that #3 is a bad thing in a vacuum; obviously people should be paid for their work. I'm saying that if you accept gifts / money in exchange for putting together a bogus paper, or in order to become the 'science' behind a pseudo scientific movement (i.e. - if you have accepted bribes in order to defraud people), there should be punitive consequences.

    I view it as a form of white collar crime, little different from Bob McDonnell accepting vacations & sports car joy rides in exchange for political clout.

    With Love and Courage
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    @N1tSt4lker already mentioned Mr. Wakefield (no more 'Dr.' 4 u, lulz), but my poster child for this sort of legal framework is Richard Lindzen.

    He's a climate researcher who's done a large body of legit work, but is also a Libertarian nut. And that's fine... except he decided that everyone must be wrong about climate change, because otherwise the world would be largely incompatible with his ideology.

    So, he began publishing bogus papers, starting with his 'Infrared Iris' paper, which used temperature data that Lindzen must have known was unacceptable to use because it represented an extreme sample. Subsequently, even though his faked results passed peer review (because they were faked), researchers couldn't replicate Lindzen's work. This culminated in a rebuttal paper.

    Lindzen then went on to try and publish more bogus work, but it wasn't up to scratch for reputable journals - so he kept submitting to obscure publishers until he found a Korean rag that hooked him up. This work was actually found to be even less rigorous than the retarded 'Infrared Iris' idea.


    But Lindzen retains full tenure, enjoys all of the benefits of being labelled an academic, enjoys influence on the IPCC committee because he's a Scientist! (TM) and there's essentially zero reason for him to discontinue using his credentials to support misinformation.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
    Zilla360N1tSt4lker
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    BYToady wrote: »
    We wouldn't have scientists because they need to eat food too.

    Still.

    Come on scientists, figure out how to elevate yourselves above common bodily needs already.

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/frontal-cortex/2012/06/daniel-kahneman-bias-studies.html

  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Given the nature of this thread, many of you probably followed the recent Nye-Ham debate from a while back. Nye actually has a nice account and what he thought about the debate up, which is well worth taking the time to have a read through.

    dangit page not found, does anyone know if there is a different site that has it?

    EDIT: ha, no it's just Aegeri who typoed the link :p

    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/bill_nyes_take_on_the_nye-ham_debate

    I hang my head in eternal shame.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Given the nature of this thread, many of you probably followed the recent Nye-Ham debate from a while back. Nye actually has a nice account and what he thought about the debate up, which is well worth taking the time to have a read through.

    dangit page not found, does anyone know if there is a different site that has it?

    EDIT: ha, no it's just Aegeri who typoed the link :p

    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/bill_nyes_take_on_the_nye-ham_debate

    I hang my head in eternal shame.

    The existence of hyperlinks is clearly a lie!

    Zilla360
  • maximumzeromaximumzero I...wait, what? New Orleans, LARegistered User regular
    Does this show now anybody else feel kinda stupid and inadequate or is it just me? I have a general grasp of most science, but Cosmos regularly throws some real high-end concepts at us, the viewers, and I feel like since I'm not already aware of them and since I don't fully understand them I'm a bit of a dummy.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Does this show now anybody else feel kinda stupid and inadequate or is it just me? I have a general grasp of most science, but Cosmos regularly throws some real high-end concepts at us, the viewers, and I feel like since I'm not already aware of them and since I don't fully understand them I'm a bit of a dummy.

    The objective of the show is to expose the audience to things they haven't heard of before, and give them a taste of what the horizon of known science looks like right now. You absolutely aren't 'dumb' if you aren't familiar with the show's material - some of the material is stuff that even the most prominent experts in that specific field aren't sure about yet.

    I would like to hope that the majority reaction to the high concept material in Cosmos is just a tug on that part of the brain that wants to solve a problem (mine got tugged pretty hard, in a way it hasn't been in a long while). Certainly it's not the intent of the show to try and intimidate you or make you feel like you're incapable of solving certain problems.

    With Love and Courage
    Zilla360MillShadowfireEdith UpwardsWraith260
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    I know most of the scientific elements Cosmos covers, but those history segments trend to throw out a lot of things I've never heard of before it's really impressive how they managed to focus on the human element of scientific discovery.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    I know most of the scientific elements Cosmos covers, but those history segments trend to throw out a lot of things I've never heard of before it's really impressive how they managed to focus on the human element of scientific discovery.

    The road of scientific progress has never been simple or easy for those the community upholds as it's greatest minds.

  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    If our society actually valued science, shows like Cosmos wouldn't make anyone feel dumb, we'd already know most of this stuff. The history segments are super important because they lay out a solid foundation for how we got to this point and why scientific exploration is imperative. The fact that most people, myself included, haven't heard much of the history portion is proof of just how fucked up our priorities are when it comes to education.

    "I see everything twice!"


    Edith Upwards
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    If our society actually valued science, shows like Cosmos wouldn't make anyone feel dumb, we'd already know most of this stuff. The history segments are super important because they lay out a solid foundation for how we got to this point and why scientific exploration is imperative. The fact that most people, myself included, haven't heard much of the history portion is proof of just how fucked up our priorities are when it comes to education.

    If our society valued science this show wouldn't need to exist.

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
    Edith UpwardsWraith260a5ehrenoverride367
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    You know how in I.T.Crowd they gave Jen a box with a light on it and said it was the internet? And she believed it?

    People like that exist and thats why we need Cosmos

    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
    Zilla360DedwrekkaSamphisSmrtnikEdith UpwardsWraith260
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited April 2014
    I think that's a bit unfair of an assumption. Without looking too hard I can find two people on this forum with advanced degrees who each could benefit from a general overview about different subjects than their specialty. Dr Tyson himself is regularly schooled in new subjects on his internet radio show.

    Hell, first time I heard the creationist song and dance about how "evolution breaks the laws of thermodynamics" it was from an electrical engineer.

    Loving science or focusing on a scientific field doesn't negate the need for broad overview science shows like Cosmos or Through the Wormhole.
    You know how in I.T.Crowd they gave Jen a box with a light on it and said it was the internet? And she believed it?

    People like that exist and thats why we need Cosmos

    You know what's scarier? Some of them have doctorates.

    Dedwrekka on
    Zilla360Edith Upwards
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Just a few minutes in, episode 8 is already fantastic.
    You've probably never heard of these women.

    HMM. I WONDER WHY?


    <3 Neil

    With Love and Courage
    N1tSt4lkerWraith260HappylilElfSamphisTheBlackWindoverride367Martini_PhilosopherShadowen
  • EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    Yeah, the science aspects of the show are interesting, but I'm getting way more into the historical stuff. I've gotten like two new heroes just from the last two episodes.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
    DanHibikiZilla360Mild Confusion
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited May 2014
    It's a bit odd to me they had an episode dedicated important women in astronomical science, yet in a previous episode where they were discussing the work of Herschel they completely neglected to mention Caroline Herschel at all. That actually bothered me a fair bit, but that episode was great and it was fantastic to see the historical contributions from women to science being recognized in the show.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • maximumzeromaximumzero I...wait, what? New Orleans, LARegistered User regular
    The human race is boned and there's little I can do about. Shit sucks.

    FU7kFbw.png
    Switch: 6200-8149-0919 / Wii U: maximumzero / 3DS: 0860-3352-3335 / eBay Shop
    SorensonTheBlackWindEdith Upwards
  • SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    I'm probably three episodes behind on this show now, but at least I preordered the blu-ray. I'm sure it'll look better than when I stream it over this DSL connection anyway.

  • curly haired boycurly haired boy Your Friendly Neighborhood Torgue Dealer Registered User regular
    really enjoyed this episode. nothing like contextualizing your existence in the grand scheme of things :)

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  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    I was kind of disappointed they did not show some of the first mammals to stick it to dinosaurs were Bats!


    The fact they are cherry picking the women in science is kind of odd when you consider that the plan of this program is to generate interest in science

  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    It's not odd at all unless you think women shouldn't be interested in science

  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Cherry picking is what I thought was the odd part of it because why show this person when they as well made a equal observation or greater.

    Also I did find the point about who pointed out continental drift was interesting because for years I was told it was some weatherman in the US who discovered it

  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Not knowing a lot about who discovered what, was there another woman that was working on plate tectonics/continental drift they could have used?

  • N1tSt4lkerN1tSt4lker Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Episode 9 study guide:
    http://static-media.fox.com/cosmos/Cosmos_Quest_Episode_9.pdf


    Also, I think the cherry-picking is just a result of only having so much time to tell the stories.

    N1tSt4lker on
    The EnderDedwrekka
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Oh dear.
    "...A network of tubes."

    I laughed so hard, probably because it's been just long enough since i've heard yet another jab at that poor senator.


    He's never, ever going to live it down.

    With Love and Courage
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Oh dear.
    "...A network of tubes."

    I laughed so hard, probably because it's been just long enough since i've heard yet another jab at that poor senator.


    He's never, ever going to live it down.

    He's dead, soooo

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    ...Is this episode accurately representing how the academic community responded to the theory of continental drift?


    It sort of bothers me that such a large, fairly transparent, idea would be openly ridiculed like that.

    With Love and Courage
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    ...Is this episode accurately representing how the academic community responded to the theory of continental drift?


    It sort of bothers me that such a large, fairly transparent, idea would be openly ridiculed like that.

    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Wegener/wegener_5.php

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    ...Is this episode accurately representing how the academic community responded to the theory of continental drift?

    It sort of bothers me that such a large, fairly transparent, idea would be openly ridiculed like that.

    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Wegener/wegener_5.php

    epic-jackie-chan-template.png

    I know I'm saying this with hindsight, but... my mind is just fucking blown.

    How do you explain earthquakes or volcanoes without continental drift? Where is all of that energy coming from? How do you explain the dramatic, face value evidence that South America and Africa seem to just slide into each other like puzzle pieces? How do you explain how mountain ranges form, against the wishes of gravity? How do you explain the presence of diamonds on the Earth's surface - super heated and compressed carbon. How did it get like that? Magic? How do you explain aquatic fossils sitting on top of mountains? Did coral reefs somehow just form up there a few million years ago, without a drop of water in sight?

    How the Hell can you be so surrounded by such overwhelming and extremely obvious evidence that the Earth's surface is anything but stable, that the core is extremely hot / molten, and just... I dunno, toss your hands into the air? Were people just not bothering to collect samples for some reason, or what? Did nobody notice that, gee whiz, it sure gets super hot as we dig down into the crust, which is kinda odd if it's solid all the way through and the only energy source is the sun?

    This was status quo n the 19 Goddamn 30s?

    ...Holy shit, we're so stupid.

    With Love and Courage
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  • MetalMagusMetalMagus Too Serious Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    ...Is this episode accurately representing how the academic community responded to the theory of continental drift?


    It sort of bothers me that such a large, fairly transparent, idea would be openly ridiculed like that.

    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Wegener/wegener_5.php

    It's been a pretty consistent narrative in Cosmos that, whenever someone comes up with some new theory about how the universe works, said person is then ridiculed / ostracized / persecuted / intimidated / dismissed / or otherwise devalued by the Powers that Be - whether they be the established scientific community or larger religious/government/corporate forces.

    Seems like there's a few lessons to be learned there, both personally and culturally.

    Zilla360DedwrekkaMild ConfusionShadowfireWraith260Shadowen
  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    ...Is this episode accurately representing how the academic community responded to the theory of continental drift?


    It sort of bothers me that such a large, fairly transparent, idea would be openly ridiculed like that.

    Aryan Physics.

    The EnderZilla360
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The simplest explanation is that it's very hard for us to imagine really large large things. Whether that's time, speed, huge masses moving, that kind of thing.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    Sorcea5ehren
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Welp. i knew the last segment of this episode was eventually going to come... and there it is.


    Lotsa people gonna be mad at this series now.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    It's a huge leap of logic to come up with "the whole Earth's crust is moving" from individual pieces of evidence. The connections between two continental landmasses (South America and Africa, in this case) could have been coincidental, and required mapping both of those landmasses in the first place, something that wasn't done until around 400 years ago. Things that are obvious now (Germ theory, light travelling in a vacuum, evolution, etc.) were not obvious then.

    Even scientists are wary of false pattern recognition, and they should be. A fundamental scientific discovery often requires a high level view of the evidence that is continuously corroborated by more and more evidence, and often takes evidence way beyond the lifetime of any one particular person. It's also why science works in a practical sense, as opposed to theology or non-science philosophies.

    And lots of paradigms are changing. Gary Becker, who just died, won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his work. He was instrumental in tying social sciences to economics, and a big proponent that people are basically rational actors when making economic decisions. The paradigm shift he helped create was the fact that "hey, people don't JUST buy things. They are influenced by marriage, by race, by discrimination, etc." But his rational actor theory is currently challenged by other more recent economists, because humans do not always act rationally. As Neil Tyson says in one of the Cosmos making-of videos "Science isn't just the 'Eureka' moments... it's often a scientist saying 'huh... that's weird.' as well."

    Evidence that seems so overwhelming now didn't just come about from a single discovery or claim, but from years and years of corroborating evidence. We truly stand on the shoulders of giants, every time someone makes a new discovery or refutes an old belief.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    But seriously, without continental drift, how do you explain earthquakes and volcanic eruptions? If the earth was thought to be more or less just a compressed ball of dirt & metal, with some depressions here or there that turn into oceans / rivers / lakes, where does all of this energy magically come from to create an earthquake or volcano? Where is all of that magma coming from? Is rock just spontaneously melting & exploding, somehow?

    Again, I know, hindsight... but seriously! This was the 1930s, not the 1700s! We have the proponent for the theory on actual black & white video!


    That nobody said, "Huh. It doesn't make much sense for rock to just explode like that for no reason," or "Huh. It doesn't make much sense for the Earth to suddenly start to violently shake, but only in very specific places," just blows my mind.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
    davidsdurionsZilla360
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Be careful with this link, it belongs in the conspiracy theory thread. But you keep asking:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=alternative+continental+drift+theories

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    I think what's bothering me most is that I can see the whole circle jerk playing out in the theater of my mind. Some old tenured guys in Britain and/or America just start badmouthing this German guy, and everyone else just rides on their coattails - the point of the enterprise becoming not to foster new discovery or even defend existing principles (whatever those were), but just to bully & ridicule that foolish and stupid German.

    I can see over and over again, played out just as the articles I'm now reading say it did, and I'm reminded of a lot of contemporary circle jerks of exactly the same stripe. Some of which I participated in (and some of which I continue to participate in). :|


    ...it's difficult at best to reconcile that doing this was so destructive in this instance, while I'm sure and would argue the case any day that doing the same thing to Ken Ham or Jen McCarthy is a positive thing.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
    Smrtnik
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