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No one in town is trained to use The Giant Bomb Thread

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    StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    optimal healing rotation you say?

    Make sure your correct HoTs and buffs are up and spam your most mana efficient heal that will keep people from dying for the current amount of damaging incoming, for the most part.

    Pretty much the same as a DPS making sure their DoTs and buffs are up while you spam your best damage move for the current phase of the fight.

    Yeah, again, this is not at all the experience I've had with FF14 healing.

    It's kind of boring early on when you don't have many skills. But when you start getting into the level 30's, there basically is no healing rotation. You have toolbox of skills that are specialized for certain situations, and a huge part of being a good healer is recognizing not only which skill to use but also when to use it and who to use it on when everyone is taking damage.

    And since everything is on a 2.5 second global cooldown, each choice matters. A lot can change in just under 3 seconds.

    Well, I can't speak to FF14 because I have never played it, which is why I specifically said WoW in my post.

    But basically in WoW you do whatever set up your class needs to make their heals optimal, while spamming whatever other heals you have, while doing whatever it is your specific class needs to do to keep their heals optimal, and save your cool downs for specific phases of the boss fight.

    If you can only speak about WoW then maybe you shouldn't make a sweeping statement that the trifecta should just be thrown away?

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    miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    I mean all video games are is press a bunch of buttons
    MMOs man, it's all the same left trigger right trigger bullshit

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    SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    wow is a bad example because its basically been boiled down to its absolute essentials, but in a bad way

    a good mmo has every role have a lot of depth and variability which is compounded by the individual fights mechanics

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Stilts wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    optimal healing rotation you say?

    Make sure your correct HoTs and buffs are up and spam your most mana efficient heal that will keep people from dying for the current amount of damaging incoming, for the most part.

    Pretty much the same as a DPS making sure their DoTs and buffs are up while you spam your best damage move for the current phase of the fight.

    Yeah, again, this is not at all the experience I've had with FF14 healing.

    It's kind of boring early on when you don't have many skills. But when you start getting into the level 30's, there basically is no healing rotation. You have toolbox of skills that are specialized for certain situations, and a huge part of being a good healer is recognizing not only which skill to use but also when to use it and who to use it on when everyone is taking damage.

    And since everything is on a 2.5 second global cooldown, each choice matters. A lot can change in just under 3 seconds.

    Well, I can't speak to FF14 because I have never played it, which is why I specifically said WoW in my post.

    But basically in WoW you do whatever set up your class needs to make their heals optimal, while spamming whatever other heals you have, while doing whatever it is your specific class needs to do to keep their heals optimal, and save your cool downs for specific phases of the boss fight.

    If you can only speak about WoW then maybe you shouldn't make a sweeping statement that the trifecta should just be thrown away?

    The trifecta has existed in a lot more than just MMOs, and I am frankly entirely bored of it. So, no, I am still quite fine with my statement that it should be thrown away, regardless of how it is implemented in a specific game. I am sick to death of it.

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    SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    what would you replace it with though, besides something actively worse like the GW2 system

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    StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Zay wrote: »
    when i'm thinking of a raid-style boss for a CAG MMO, i'm picturing giant monsters, like one of the bosses in bayonetta, where everyone is climbing on it and doing sick ass combos and shit

    and thinking on it, the comparisons to my ideal CAG MMO and GW2 are absolutely apt. as are the comparions to monster hunter, to a degree. but the biggest, fundamental failing of GW2 is that there's no mechanics. every boss is an absolute spam fest, where you just hit v when the red circle appears below you, and that's a problem. a CAG needs mechanics, and if you just look at revengeance, or bayonetta, or dmc, i don't think it'd be hard to adapt those systems to accomodate 10 or so players. you don't need tanks or healers, but you need each player to be doing SOMETHING, ANYTHING that isn't identical to what the other player is doing.

    and, at the same time, yes, there would definitely be classes. dante/vergil is a good comparison for sure, because vergil plays way different from dante, and they both play drastically different from bayonetta. coming up with 4 or 5 different movesets would be rad. and maybe they could have cross-move type stuff like ffxiv does, i don't know, like maybe you have one class that's very ground focused, and by leveling up as a dante, they learn a launcher. or a class that's more burly and has longer, heavier attacks, but can learn a quick opener by leveling up as vergil.

    Yeah, I can absolutely agree with this.

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    UrielUriel Registered User regular
    WoW these days also poops out the same or very similar fight mechanics so often at this point none of the fights are even all that rewarding.

    Plus the story is the dumbest horseshit ever.

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    what would you replace it with though, besides something actively worse like the GW2 system

    Spiral Knights

    Phantasy Star Online

    Monster Hunter

    There are lots of places to look for ideas for other models for MMOs.

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
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    UrielUriel Registered User regular
    what would you replace it with though, besides something actively worse like the GW2 system

    I think it's unrealistic to say that it can't be done any other way than GW2 but if you break drastically away from MMO like character progression and mechanics at what point does it become more of a coop character action game or something than a classical MMORPG?

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    SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    in an ideal mmo, by the point you are at the "endgame" the actual specifics of your role are the last thing you should be thinking about. by that point the game would expect you to already have learned how to perform your job and how to adapt and prioritize different functions of that job to new situations.

    a good example of this i think is Titan HM in FFXIV. That fight is a gateway to your job's relic and to the rest of the high end content and is so unrelenting in its mechanics you straight up don't have time to think about what attacks you should be using or who you should heal or whatever, that stuff needs to just be muscle memory because you are too busy actually dealing with the complex mechanics of the fight to think about the basics

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    Kevin CristKevin Crist I make the devil hit his knees and say the 'our father'Registered User regular
    I liked the Priest class in Tera. The action game style gave you a selection of AoE heals and buffs and healing spells caused a whole lot of Aggro, so you needed to dps with the Priest's little nuke spell every so often to keep enemies focused on the tank.

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    XehalusXehalus Registered User regular
    Elder Scrolls Online has decent co-op

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    UrielUriel Registered User regular
    edited March 2014
    Like there is plenty of things that can work differently if you throw out more of the trappings of the MMO than just the trifecta of roles.

    Because really those just grow naturally from the other mechanics and encounter design.

    Uriel on
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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    Uriel wrote: »
    what would you replace it with though, besides something actively worse like the GW2 system

    I think it's unrealistic to say that it can't be done any other way than GW2 but if you break drastically away from MMO like character progression and mechanics at what point does it become more of a coop character action game or something than a classical MMORPG?

    what i'm picturing doesn't necessarily have to be an mmo, tbh, it could definitely just be like monster hunter with a hub where you select a monster to hunt and then go do it

    the one part of my CAG MMO that really falls apart is i don't know how you'd make normal mmo-style questing at all fun or compelling... but i guess that's why i've hired a team of designers and entrepreneurs from all over the world and industry

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    Uriel wrote: »
    WoW these days also poops out the same or very similar fight mechanics so often at this point none of the fights are even all that rewarding.

    Plus the story is the dumbest horseshit ever.

    the brawler's guild is the only part of end-game wow that matters

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMJNRZxe2o8

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    In my ideal MMO you hit the "endgame" of a classic MMO directly after creating your character.

    I guess ultimately we can conclude what I want isn't really an MMO proper, but just specific, elements extracted from the genre.

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    SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    Zay wrote: »
    Uriel wrote: »
    WoW these days also poops out the same or very similar fight mechanics so often at this point none of the fights are even all that rewarding.

    Plus the story is the dumbest horseshit ever.

    the brawler's guild is the only part of end-game wow that matters

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMJNRZxe2o8

    is that super hexagon

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    yes

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    UrielUriel Registered User regular
    Zay wrote: »
    Uriel wrote: »
    what would you replace it with though, besides something actively worse like the GW2 system

    I think it's unrealistic to say that it can't be done any other way than GW2 but if you break drastically away from MMO like character progression and mechanics at what point does it become more of a coop character action game or something than a classical MMORPG?

    what i'm picturing doesn't necessarily have to be an mmo, tbh, it could definitely just be like monster hunter with a hub where you select a monster to hunt and then go do it

    the one part of my CAG MMO that really falls apart is i don't know how you'd make normal mmo-style questing at all fun or compelling... but i guess that's why i've hired a team of designers and entrepreneurs from all over the world and industry

    Yeah I mean a real part of the problem with MMO games is how formulaic they are.

    Even the good ones have a very very similar gameplay loop and largely similar encounters for the players to engage in and at what point of adding or subtracting from that stuff does it become something else?

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    AdusAdus Registered User regular
    I agree it's really reductive to say all three MMO roles are the same just with different targets. I only just came back to WoW and while they definitely might have gone too far in streamlining some things, how the roles play still feel different enough. I chose to play a monk, which can fulfill any of the three. Only the DPS role has something that could be considered an 'optimal rotation'. Tank and healer were way more reactionary.

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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    A really slow Super Hexagon.

    maybe kind of an Above Average Hexagon.

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Adus wrote: »
    I agree it's really reductive to say all three MMO roles are the same just with different targets. I only just came back to WoW and while they definitely might have gone too far in streamlining some things, how the roles play still feel different enough. I chose to play a monk, which can fulfill any of the three. Only the DPS role has something that could be considered an 'optimal rotation'. Tank and healer were way more reactionary.

    I didn't say tank because tank actually is pretty different, I was just saying that healers and dps in WoW do not feel all that different to me.

    My point was, essentially that you do not need the trifecta for characters to feel different, and the trifecta is not a guarantee for characters feeling different anyway. Characters in Monster Hunter feel different without the trifecta (no one is going to say using a greatsword and using a light gunbow is the same experience) while in WoW, characters from even different parts of the trifecta can feel similar.

    It comes down to how well each individual game is made.

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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    ...you do realize that trifecta-based MMOs other than WoW exist, right?

    No, please explain the mysteries of these other, completely unknown, shadowy games to me in excruciating detail.
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Hullis wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Like, playing a DPS and playing a healer in WoW isn't really that different.

    Both are "don't stand in the fire" and "do optimal rotation" one is just targeting players and one is just targeting enemies.

    hahahahahahahahaha

    This is a nice response that is very conducive to productive conversation.

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    Radius wrote: »
    A really slow Super Hexagon.

    maybe kind of an Above Average Hexagon.

    well it instantly kills you, and has/had a pretty tight enrage timer for when it was implemented (especially considering you're going to be way way more focused on rotating through the maze than your rotation)

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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    I stand my elitist Hexagon claims.

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
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    SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    not as good as that one rift boss where you have to play galaga

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    eat my dickbutt

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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    They never made a boss better than Chess anyways.

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
    Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    Radius wrote: »
    They never made a boss better than Chess anyways.

    opera

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    I think the real failing with WoW as a game is that there is basically no way for your style or personality as a player to show through in your gameplay. You basically have to play the game in a very set way, or odds are you will just fail.

    I think in a really well crafted game you can watch two people play the exact same character, and be able to tell who is playing it, while still having both players be successful at the game. For an example, watching Daigo play Ryu and watching Alex Valle play Ryu.

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    not as good as that one rift boss where you have to play galaga

    there's also a snake boss in the brawler's guild

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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    Well, actually, personally the most fun boss in WoW was Heigan because Mirren let me gkick anyone who couldn't Safety Dance.

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
    Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
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    SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    why didn't they just push the lich king off that tower

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    man they already made a game where rotations and shit are thrown out the window. it's called tera

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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    I'm not sure I can handle both this thread and the Diablo thread talking about Blizzard's shitty writing at the same time.

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
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    StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    edited March 2014
    Jars wrote: »
    man they already made a game where rotations and shit are thrown out the window. it's called tera

    But then I'd be playing Tera.

    And that is not a situation I want to be in.

    Stilts on
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    StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    Radius wrote: »
    I'm not sure I can handle both this thread and the Diablo thread talking about Blizzard's shitty writing at the same time.

    Let me tell you about how the Heart of the Swarm plot is super dumb...

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Has Blizzard writing always been crap? And did I just not notice it earlier because I was a kid? Or did it degrade with time?

    The former seems more likely than the latter.

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    Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    Healers and DPS in WoW are pretty different. The fundamental difference is that a DPS is more or less reacting to only to the boss. The healer is reacting to his own mistakes, the boss and the mistakes of other players and using his full toolset to cover for all of these things. You need to know what the boss is doing to every player of the raid as a healer. You only really need to know what the boss is going to do to you as a DPS.

    Fundamentally everyone has a "rotation" because time has inherent value and you're always trying to fill it with something useful to the raid.

    That being said I don't really think that the trifecta is really necessary either? That being said I really disliked GW2 but that felt like, as someone previously said, the gameplay was flat and just spammy rather than interesting. The lack of enforced roles wasn't really the issue. I don't have any experience with any other MMO that's tried to break that mold...

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