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[Gridders] Delving dungeons one step at a time
Raggie
SchattenjägerRegistered User regular
SchattenjägerRegistered User regular
Grid-based first person RPGs. That's a mouthful, so let's call them gridders.
This RPG sub-genre started all the way in the 80's with games like Wizardry and Dungeon Master. Gridders died out by the end of the 90's, when gaming hardware became capable enough to run first-person games with free movement. In recent years gridders have been enjoying a revival, with games like Legend of Grimrock and Etrian Odyssey being small hits. In fact, the interest in these games seems to be picking up steam rather than slowing down, and we are getting a steady trickle of new PC and handheld releases from both Japanese and Western developers.
What the heck is the point of playing something as limited as this when you could be playing Skyrim?
I guess you could say that the limitations are a part of the charm. Grid-based movement is simple and snappy and particularly suited for a handheld's d-pad. The grid also forces into a particular style of thoughtful level design. Let's just say that you won't find dungeons in Skyrim that are nearly as well designed as the ones in Grimrock or Might and Magic. Gridders are decidedly gameish, and something entirely different from all other RPGs.
Even though gridders pretty much look the same, the genre is not without variety. For example, Etrian Odyssey is about delving and mapping dungeons and building up your characters, while Legend of Grimrock is about solving puzzles and the tight atmosphere, and Might and Magic is more about adventuring in a sandbox with many dungeons and an overworld.
Battles can be either turn-based or real-time. Turn-based combat works like old-school JRPGs and have random encounters (except for Might and Magic games which have visible monsters on the field). Real-time battles work kinda like fencing, where you dance around the enemies to swipe them at opportune moments and avoid getting hit. Both styles of combat have their own tactics and can be just as fun, as long as you understand what makes them tick.
Okay, sounds interesting enough. Where can I learn more?
The Steam gridder group has all sorts of info. In addition to the associated games list on Steam, there's a list of games for Vita, PSP, DS 3DS and iPhone. Also check out the gridders on GOG.com for the PC classics.
So many games! Which ones do you recommend I should play?
That's a tough question! Do you like turn-based or real-time battles? Are you into puzzles, exploration or making the ultimate party? Do you like open world or linear games? Stat-heavy or streamlined? Anime or western art? If you can narrow down your preferences a bit, I'm sure we can hook you up with something good. All you need to do is ask!
How about future releases?
There are plenty! See them here.
This RPG sub-genre started all the way in the 80's with games like Wizardry and Dungeon Master. Gridders died out by the end of the 90's, when gaming hardware became capable enough to run first-person games with free movement. In recent years gridders have been enjoying a revival, with games like Legend of Grimrock and Etrian Odyssey being small hits. In fact, the interest in these games seems to be picking up steam rather than slowing down, and we are getting a steady trickle of new PC and handheld releases from both Japanese and Western developers.
What the heck is the point of playing something as limited as this when you could be playing Skyrim?
I guess you could say that the limitations are a part of the charm. Grid-based movement is simple and snappy and particularly suited for a handheld's d-pad. The grid also forces into a particular style of thoughtful level design. Let's just say that you won't find dungeons in Skyrim that are nearly as well designed as the ones in Grimrock or Might and Magic. Gridders are decidedly gameish, and something entirely different from all other RPGs.
Even though gridders pretty much look the same, the genre is not without variety. For example, Etrian Odyssey is about delving and mapping dungeons and building up your characters, while Legend of Grimrock is about solving puzzles and the tight atmosphere, and Might and Magic is more about adventuring in a sandbox with many dungeons and an overworld.
Battles can be either turn-based or real-time. Turn-based combat works like old-school JRPGs and have random encounters (except for Might and Magic games which have visible monsters on the field). Real-time battles work kinda like fencing, where you dance around the enemies to swipe them at opportune moments and avoid getting hit. Both styles of combat have their own tactics and can be just as fun, as long as you understand what makes them tick.
Okay, sounds interesting enough. Where can I learn more?
The Steam gridder group has all sorts of info. In addition to the associated games list on Steam, there's a list of games for Vita, PSP, DS 3DS and iPhone. Also check out the gridders on GOG.com for the PC classics.
So many games! Which ones do you recommend I should play?
That's a tough question! Do you like turn-based or real-time battles? Are you into puzzles, exploration or making the ultimate party? Do you like open world or linear games? Stat-heavy or streamlined? Anime or western art? If you can narrow down your preferences a bit, I'm sure we can hook you up with something good. All you need to do is ask!
How about future releases?
There are plenty! See them here.
Raggie on
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I really should play and complete more of these. I've started several of them but only beaten a few, like Wizardry: Knight of Diamonds on NES, Etrian Odyssey 1 and I'm nearly done with 2, and Shining in the Darkness on the Genesis.
Fan of this type of game in general, think I'll have to be watching this thread!
That's always a game for me that got away. I once held it on my hands and though "there's a console Wizardry now?" and put it back down. The only game I've regretted not buying more was a cheap copy of Suikoden II.
That's a shame. Just recently I was thinking of throwing it back in for another play thru.
You might also mention the old Gold Box SSI games in the OP. 1st person grid gameplay under D&D rules. PC goodness, first one released in 1988.
I still play those from time to time as well, and they are old enough you can find them around the net.
I've never played those. Aren't they sort of gridder hybrids, with first-person dungeons and overhead combat?
Yup, overhead turn based combat, based on the D&D rules. I suppose you could consider it a hybrid, maybe a really close cousin.
Outside of a really vague recollection of one of the very early Wizardrys (that I saw someone else playing), the Gold Box games were my prime introduction do that style of gameplay.
I tried Etrian Odyssey 1, but didn't stick with it long. I liked having the story bits of the Japanese Wizardry versus being only about the dungeon delving.
Sounds like Millennium Girl should be right up your alley.
I also couldn't finish Etrian 1, but I'm on the 4th stratum in EO2 now and had fun with it.
It's strange, but Etrian Odyssey is the most popular gridder series right now (at least out of the Japanese ones), and it's the one I enjoy the least. I just don't care for the things that are unique to EO. I dislike you can't save freely. I don't like FOEs. I'm not getting anything out of the mapping. I know I'm in the minority but I'd take Elminage and Class of Heroes as Wizardry clones over EO any day.
Etrian Odyssey is definitely a niche game and I'm surprised and happy that it has done so well.
I played so many RPGs like Wizardry as a kid I can't even remember most of their titles. I assume they were easy to program, so early Apples/PCs were lousy with them and I played every one I could get my hands on.
Until Etrian Odyssey, I hadn't played one of these games since I finished Stonekeep in the 90's (the one with the headstone for a box). I am so glad that EO and Grimrock have revived this subgenre.
Yeah, I hate that term with a passion so I prefer calling them gridders instead.
It's like Etrian Odyssey convinced they should bring more Wizardry clones from Japan, and Grimrock convinced western companies to make more gridders. So it's two revivals that happened at the same time, but separately.
They'll always be RPGs to me. I didn't even occur to me that they needed a more specific name until I heard that and realized how many different kinds of RPGs there are.
Another decent 3DS title is Unchained Blades. There isn't any party building or mapping, emphasizing instead the story and characters. If EO leaves you cold, this might work better for you.
EDIT: The real reason Etrian Odyssey is so good is because Yuzo Koshiro composed the most ass-kickingest soundtrack for every title.
Sadly I do not have a PSP, so Elminage and Class of Heroes are out. I heard about Millennium Girl, I may have to add it to my list. Although Demon Gaze is tempting me towards a Vita, so I may have more options eventually.
The Dark Spire. Used to be rare and pricey, seems cheap enough now though! Very Wizardry-inspired, pick a race and class and alignment, learn a huge variety of skills that may or may not be useless, tons of equipment and spells, two full skins for the game including a modern mode and classic 8-bit mode, with wireframe dungeon and little sprites, and 8-bit music. Very arbitrary puzzles and encounters, really old style. It's great. Very highly recommended.
Holy shit, I've had that game on my Amazon wishlist for fucking years. I should go ahead and buy it, even though I'm still not finished with EO2 and I already have 3 and 4 lined up.
It's the second game in the trilogy made up by Wizardry 6, 7, and 8. You can import your party from Wiz 6 or make a new one. There are ten races, including charismatic wookies and acid-breathing dragon people (in addition to your normal fantasy races.) It has 14 classes, which in your standard Wizardry set includes things like ninja and samurai, but also bard, valkyrie, monk, and psionic.
You arrive on the planet Guardia to search for the Astral Dominae, one of the three relics the Cosmic Lords utilized in the creation of the universe. Many other groups are also searching for it, both native and alien. The Dark Savant, the villain of the trilogy, already has one of the relics, so preventing him from getting the Astral Dominae is important to the larger trilogy.
In addition to tons of dungeon crawling, Wiz 7 also has a lot of puzzle solving, NPC interaction (via text parser), a huge overworld that's basically a dungeon, a character skill-based automap, and an awesome character development system.
Buy it on GoG or Steam.
Because Wizardry 6 has an ancient abandoned castle that inexplicably has Queequeg in the basement selling you junk next to a pirate's den (led by Captain Matey), an early quest involving finding and returning a stuffed beagle named Snoopcheri to a frenchman in the castle towers,
Both serious and silly games have their places...though I'm a little less charitable toward games that borrow heavily from disparate mythologies, especially specific characters. I was just curious when Wizardry turned, if ever.
Might and Magic seemed to make a transition toward being more serious starting with 6.
The only Wizardry games I ever played until I bought 6 and 7 from GOG recently (and I haven't even played them yet) were 2 and 8, and 2 seemed mostly serious. Of course there wasn't a whole lot to the game but a single dungeon with around 8 floors, but still.
Just let me join in by saying that's a dumb name and I still don't believe anyone ever seriously used it.
Since then, in addition to all the EOs, I've played Might and Magic and Grimrock, and quite enjoyed them. Grimrock's puzzles in particular made me smile - I like this kind of thing. Is there any other games like these more focused on puzzling?
I still use it. Before the M&M thread I'd never heard the word 'Gridder' before, and I've been playing these kinds of games for like 15 years
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Might as well delve into the classics on GoG.
Get it? Delve!
I created a random party just to test it, and have decided to stick with them, see how it goes.
It's got everything but hidden switches on walls, but I've not seen a proper dungeon yet. I have high hopes. :-)
Grimrock is specifically designed to mimic an older series of games, Dungeon Master. They are actually very similar, Grimrock stole some of the same puzzles even, IIRC.
They're really difficult and old school, but if you want more Grimrock, this is what you're looking for.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Lands of Lore - The Throne of Chaos would be a good one to get next. You can get it from GOG. It's an oldie, but unless you're a graphics whore it actually looks pretty (in a pixelated way, of course). LoL1 is my favorite of this type of gridders.
You know the name is full of fail when you need to explain to the fans of the genre why it's called that.
I think the genre needs a name to set it apart from free-roaming first person dungeon crawlers. I like to call them gridders because it's a short word, easy to remember, and it says something about what makes them different.
Devil Whiskey (demo at this link) seems like it could be a good one too. I got it in a bundle at Gamersgate a while back and played it for a bit. I should make an effort to revisit it.
Yeah, I've seen some people using "dungeon crawler" to mean only games like this, which makes somewhat confusing forum threads. That's why I think there should be a name we could use. Something that isn't a full sentence like "first person grid-based dungeon crawlers".
I hadn't heard of that one. If you do revisit it, please post your impressions.
In a shooter you shoot. In a side scroller you scroll sideways. In a gridder you grid? I don't grid. I might make a map, sure. But mostly I fight monsters and level up.
I don't like gridder because then Diablo 1 is also a gridder, since it takes place on a grid of tiles. Roguelikes are also gridders. So are 8-bit JRPGs.
First person RPG seems to suit it much better because that excludes most roguelikes and other types of RPGs. I know that it then includes games like Might and Magic 6 and Skyrim, but I feel like this type of game has more in common with those games than other games that simply have a grid of some sort. I mean, Might & Magic 6 with its free roaming first person is a logical extension of this sort of game.
I don't have a problem defining a type of game by comparison. I say I enjoy roguelikes because they are like Rogue. I also enjoy Wizardry-likes, or Might-&-Magic-likes, or Grimrock-likes, or whatever you want to call them. I call them first person RPGs and people know what I mean. If they choose to misinterpret and say "you mean like Skyrim" well sure, I also like Skyrim, whatever.
It's just a name, it's not supposed to refer to all games with a grid or include a description of the whole genre. It's just a word to make conversation easier, because "first person grid based RPGs" is too long. And I think these games are different from the free-roamers and should be called something. I just don't know any other terms besides gridders and blobbers, and I'm not going to call them blobbers.
Another one of my favourite gridders was the Eye of the Beholder series. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on GoG or Steam, but those games were great and hard as hell. I remember getting through about half of EotB 2 before having to pick up the hint book because I'd started to get to areas with secret doors and spinner tiles and teleport traps and all that jazz.
It was more along the lines of Dungeon Master because combat was real time. There wasn't a party, just the one character. I really like the sprite art in it.
You played The Bard's Tale, but thought the Eye of the Beholder games were hard?
My memory of the Bard's Tale is the first dungeon (after the training cellar) being full of invisible teleporters throwing you into magically dark anti-magic spinners. Plus a whole hell of a lot of grinding, mostly involving 396 Berserkers, DRBR and a heavy book on the space bar.
Yes, that's a fun one for a quick dungeon romp. I agree about the art.
I was a fair bit older when I played EOTB than when I played Bard's Tale, for which I just used the hint book for maps the entire time. I don't remember early dungeons having that crap, but I definitely remember that the entire final dungeon in the Bard's Tale III was full of that invisible teleporter/dark anti-magic spinner stuff. I couldn't finish that one even with the map. By the time EOTB came out, I was old enough to want to give it a shot on my own.
I just played it for a few hours. A few things I forgot about it that are pretty cool:
- It's fully based on Dungeons and Dragons second edition, with most of the rules and items working the same way they do in pencil and paper, so that's nice for D&D fans.
- The dungeons are randomly generated, much like a roguelike, so it's infinitely replayable. It even generates puzzles (mostly just key-and-door stuff, but hey).
- It's totally customizable. You can roll a character legitimately, or crank up their stats to the max, or reduce them. You can set the number of floors, whether or not multi-floor puzzles will be generated (find a key on floor 2 to open a door on floor 4), whether or not there are areas of water (requiring holding your breath or water breathing), how many magic items you find, how many monsters there are, how tough the combat is, all sorts of things. You can enforce perma-death or not. You can turn off undead, which I probably should have done, since on one floor they drained levels which is the WORST thing in the world.
I'm playing a fighter/mage/cleric which is slow going leveling up, but since you're by yourself it's good to have as many options as possible. Luckily on the very first floor I found robes of the magi, which give you good armor class and you can still cast mage spells while wearing them.
To be honest all you really need is access to cleric spells since they get create food which is really helpful and means you can dink around as long as you like.