Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[European Politics] European Elections: This Time It's Different?

13567

Posts

  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Are you questioning the independence of central banks? Because that's a whole other kettle of fish. All I'm saying if two or more states decide to become one state they will have a common fiscal policy by default, no more, no less. The more states join, the better for the Euro. Doesn't matter, not going to happen anyway. just a hypothetical solution to a variety of political problems I find institutionally elegant.

    wilting on
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    It occurs to me that I don't actually know the position of any candidates in my constituency on the issues that concern me, because all they talk about is local and national stuff.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Right, voted. Split ticket between euro and local.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
    RMS Oceanic
  • DexterBelgiumDexterBelgium Registered User regular
    As a Belgian, I can't help but feel that the point where the EU has expanded so rapidly, without first shoring up its basic functioning, that it has now become impossible to make the necessary changes to the functioning of the EU's political institutions to catch up to where some parts of the Union are now at. Case in point, due to the fact that the decision-making process was never made "manageable" and less of a "least common denominator of national policies" prior to expanding eastward (Poland being the first in a long line of joining countries I suspect of having joined with the same aim as the UK: mucking it up from the inside, and preventing it from ever becoming a true union), that now no solution for questions like saving the Euro, setting up a common internal set of policies (social, fiscal, etc) to go along with a common currency and an integrated and interconnected economy, can ever be found.

    The "euro crisis" to me has shown clearly that the EU as it currently stands does not have the political will to take any action that is required to face any serious challenge. Yes, throwing some money (the least amount possible) at a problem can be agreed (at the eleventh hour, causing substantial damage by the delay) if absolutely required, but policy and a transcendce of the purely local level is no longer on the table.

    The idea that Germany would ever form a federal state with even the Netherlands, or Belgium, or even any of the Nordic countries is irrealistic. The idea that they could ever form such a state with any of the weaker links (starting with France all the way down to Greece) is, quite frankly, going on the evidence of the last five years, ridiculous.

    The problem I have with this is that deficit-scolding is alive and well in such an environment, and that that is something which I firmly believe is a net negative policy choice, which damages all of the economies that aren't Germany (i.e., which didn't have the benefit of having made their "internal deflation" adjustment in an environment when all the other countries were inflating, and having finished that adjustment just in time for the crisis).

    In short, I'm not euro-sceptic, but I am euro-pessimistic as things stand. I'm also firmly of the belief that there is a chance that is indistinguishable from zero without the use of electron-scanning microscopes that any of the "candidates" become commission president. Lastly, I firmly believe my vote for the EU parliament is ultimately as effective in affecting EU policy as attempting to affect US international policy by releasing a butterfly in my backyard. My local vote will affect that course much more (still next to zero, but still).

    I would like to vote against austerity lovers, just for the hell of it.

    Panda4YouPi-r8
  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    The idea that Germany would ever form a federal state with even the Netherlands, or Belgium, or even any of the Nordic countries is irrealistic. The idea that they could ever form such a state with any of the weaker links (starting with France all the way down to Greece) is, quite frankly, going on the evidence of the last five years, ridiculous.

    This is kind of the idea I was talking about earlier in the thread. Germans and Dutch see their countries as independent countries in alliance with each other, not subsections of an overarching nation. Without that, the EU is half a trade agreement (like NAFTA) and half a government dictating to its member states without the direct or moral authority to enforce those rules accept by consent of the states (like the UN). It clearly works as the former but its iffy on the latter

    11793-1.png
    day9gosu.png
    QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    The idea that Germany would ever form a federal state with even the Netherlands, or Belgium, or even any of the Nordic countries is irrealistic. The idea that they could ever form such a state with any of the weaker links (starting with France all the way down to Greece) is, quite frankly, going on the evidence of the last five years, ridiculous.

    Never suggested it was a realistic possibility, just a "what if" that I personally find appealing from an academic institutional perspective.
    In short, I'm not euro-sceptic, but I am euro-pessimistic as things stand. I'm also firmly of the belief that there is a chance that is indistinguishable from zero without the use of electron-scanning microscopes that any of the "candidates" become commission president. Lastly, I firmly believe my vote for the EU parliament is ultimately as effective in affecting EU policy as attempting to affect US international policy by releasing a butterfly in my backyard. My local vote will affect that course much more (still next to zero, but still).

    Well, the Commission ultimately requires approval from the Parliament and the Parliament hasn't been afraid to flex those muscles to reject individual Commissioners in the past. It's hard to imagine just ignoring the election result as being politically tenable. Of course, there are some opposed to new procedure, and the Council has it own interests and way of doing things. I make no claim to know what is going to happen, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. I also take a long view, that it may take a few elections before the process gets into its stride.

    I think you are doing the Parliament a disservice, it has been gathering power and influence and is more important than is generally believed.

    I would add that a dismissive attitude doesn't help and arguably is part (indeed the core) of the problem.

  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    PantsB wrote: »
    This is kind of the idea I was talking about earlier in the thread. Germans and Dutch see their countries as independent countries in alliance with each other, not subsections of an overarching nation. Without that, the EU is half a trade agreement (like NAFTA) and half a government dictating to its member states without the direct or moral authority to enforce those rules accept by consent of the states (like the UN). It clearly works as the former but its iffy on the latter

    Germans and Dutch are individuals who make up their own minds, not hive mind insects. More than 200 candidates for the Parliament have signed a Federalist Pledge, plenty who haven't signed it are integration enthusiasts and as I already alluded to in the thread, even prominent figures like the Italian Prime Minister are openly Federalist. I'm not suggesting there will be a United States of Europe overnight (and this is a simplistic term which gives the wrong idea sometimes), but the picture is far from the doom and gloom that some suggest.

    The EU doesn't "dictate" to Member States, it was built by the Member States, for the Member States, in a consensual, compromising, gradual process. The Union's institutions are appointed by the Member States, for the Member States, with the exception of the Parliament which is directly elected. States accept rulings, laws and policies they don't necessarily agree with because they are invested in the system as a whole.

    wilting on
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    I've been hearing a bunch of "other people are making decisions for us, oh no" in the campaigns.

    Right, so as if I were a citizen of a state, then?

    Suddenly everyone is Rambo, surviving alone in the woods by wrestling bacon.

    wiltingKalkinoscherbchenEdith Upwards
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    Are you questioning the independence of central banks? Because that's a whole other kettle of fish. All I'm saying if two or more states decide to become one state they will have a common fiscal policy by default, no more, no less. The more states join, the better for the Euro. Doesn't matter, not going to happen anyway. just a hypothetical solution to a variety of political problems I find institutionally elegant.

    Ah ok I follow you now. For some reason I read that as yet another union without unified policy. But yeah if they're a proper country that wouldn't be a problem.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    PLA wrote: »
    I've been hearing a bunch of "other people are making decisions for us, oh no" in the campaigns.

    Right, so as if I were a citizen of a state, then?

    Suddenly everyone is Rambo, surviving alone in the woods by wrestling bacon.

    People get annoyed about the former as well. When the remove is several countries away the feeling is enhanced.

    jakobagger
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    I have now voted in the Euro elections.

    Twice.

  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    Apparently the Dutch PVVhas lost one of its four mandates.

    Good. They may be one of the least odious anti-EU/anti-immigration parties, but they still deserve little to no power.

  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Merkel: Voters elect next commission chief 'in principle'

    Woo!
    In an interview with Passauer Neue Presse, Merkel said that voters in the EU elections can bring their contribution to furthering the European project.

    "A clear qualitative improvement is that, in principle, the Commission president gets elected," she said.

    This represents a slight change in Merkel's stance.

    ...

    But after a weeks of pan-European campaigning and nine TV debates, the 'Spitzenkandidaten' are a reality leaders are finding more difficult to ignore.

    According to one EU diplomat, "the fact that we have top candidates has created certain dynamics".

    Still might not happen, but fingers crossed.

    I AM EXCITE THIS IS A BIG DEAL.

    wilting on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I have now voted in the Euro elections.

    Twice.

    If UKIP wins clones shall not be able to vote, sorry Bogart

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    Absalon wrote: »
    Apparently the Dutch PVVhas lost one of its four mandates.

    Good. They may be one of the least odious anti-EU/anti-immigration parties, but they still deserve little to no power.

    Man sad that PVV is the least odious.

  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    UK local election results are coming in, UKIP have made massive gains, mostly at the expense of the Tories.

    The most likely scenario is that the Tories will most likely still win the general Election in 2015, but with a notable number of UKIP-esque policies in place designed to win back those voters.

    Thanks for your protest vote, assholes. Good job.

    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
    Rhesus PositiveKalkinoBogart
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    They might not all have been protest votes! Some might have just been your garden variety reactionary racist.

    AManFromEarth
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Or too dumb to actually know what they're voting for. It happens on large scales. "Oh. Whoops."

  • CornucopiistCornucopiist Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Lastly, I firmly believe my vote for the EU parliament is ultimately as effective in affecting EU policy as attempting to affect US international policy by releasing a butterfly in my backyard. My local vote will affect that course much more (still next to zero, but still).

    I would like to vote against austerity lovers, just for the hell of it.

    This might be of interest to you: Ombudsman to investigate EU expert groups (hint: it really really should be.)

    Cornucopiist on
  • CornucopiistCornucopiist Registered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    "after a weeks of pan-European campaigning and nine TV debates, the 'Spitzenkandidaten' are a reality leaders are finding more difficult to ignore.

    According to one EU diplomat, "the fact that we have top candidates has created certain dynamics".


    Still might not happen, but fingers crossed.

    I AM EXCITE THIS IS A BIG DEAL.

    This is super big news. The European Union has always been only possibly through dangling enticingly juicy carrots before the national politicians. There's not been much of that around lately, but this could mean a national career becomes a launch platform for Commission President rather than the last stop before the revolving door cashout.

    Also, an EP selected Commission President puts the Council and their crummy tame powerless 'President' (sorry Eric) in it's place as the secretive smegheads that connive to ruin European governance.

    Kalkino
  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    UK local election results are coming in, UKIP have made massive gains, mostly at the expense of the Tories.

    The most likely scenario is that the Tories will most likely still win the general Election in 2015, but with a notable number of UKIP-esque policies in place designed to win back those voters.

    Thanks for your protest vote, assholes. Good job.

    I feel sick, slightly.

    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Bleh, don't post tipsy.

    Spaffy on
    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Disturbing reports of EU citizens being denied a vote in the UK. Note charming comments on the article saying they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

    To give an anecdote, my half English girlfriend and her English Mum had some trouble voting yesterday in Ireland, which makes even less sense given the status of UK/Irish citizens in each others countries. They eventually managed to vote but had to wait some 30 or 40 mins while the polling station staff bumbled about. They were told they needed to vote somewhere else, despite the fact that it was the only polling station in their locality, and they've lived there 10/15 years.

    I don't understand why the process need be any more complicated than it is for nationals. You register to vote where you live, end of.

    wilting on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    By contrast I've never had any problem voting in the UK at all, as a Commonwealth citizen. I did change my registration to British though once I became a citizen, but that has only affected the most recent election.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    Never did register to vote when I lived in Edinburgh, so I can't comment myself. People not being able to vote gets my blood up though.

    Kalkino
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Almost all if the EU types I know in London seem uninterested in voting here, for various reasons. Part of that is the usual immigrant (that we antipodeans share ) feeling that it isn't a permanent move so why bother, especially if one can still vote for home.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    Well, did my part and voted. Really hoping Sweden won't see gains for SD, our rightwing anti-foreigner party.

  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Voted as well.
    Hoping that the Basic Finns (they insist that they should be called the "Finns" in English (used to be the "True Finns"), but fuck em, Basic Finns is the most direct translation i can come up with), don't get as many seats as i think they will, but whatever.

    Jobless Anarchist
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    So results will start coming in soon I guess, 2300 CEST. I imagine Britain's will be released asap.

    http://www.results-elections2014.eu/en/election-results-2014.html

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
    Calixtus
  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Sweden preliminaries (compared to last EP election results)

    V: 8,1 (economically, the leftmost party, and my vote) (+2,4)
    S: 23,7 (since long the largest party, has declined the alst decade) (-0.7)
    Mp: 17 (environmentalists, made a huge gain, third/fourth largest in national surveys) (+6,1)
    C: 6,2 (centrists with an eclectic policy portfolio. Polls lower in national surveys) (+0,7)
    Fp: 9,5 (economic and social liberals with a focus on education, have fared poorly recently) (-4,1)
    Kd: 5,1 (Christian democrats with some anti-establishment criticisms, but very New testament) (+0,4)
    M: 13,0 (economic right-wingers, usually the 2nd largest party in national surveys, had a catastrophic EP election) (-5,8)
    Pp: 2,5 (the pirate party, resembles Anonymous and the Bitcoin people. Lose their seat) (-4,6)
    Sd: 7,0 (right-wingers, with some nationalists, reactionaries and conservatives. Male-heavy) (+3,7)
    F!: 7,0 (The feminist party, heavily female, has made immense gains lately) (+4,8)

    Apparently, some adjustments are made according to actual voting counts.

    Absalon on
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Front National getting 25% in France.

    That's just pitiful.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    Panda4YouHaphazard
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    19 minutes to polls close and results come in. It seems likely that the English results will be quick as counting has finished in a lot of places, Scotland won't be able to give final confirmation as 1/32 councils does not count votes on a Sunday. I'm not sure about Wales or Norn.

    I've been watching the BBC special and their correspondents across the UK and Europe seem to be getting wry amusement from noting they can't really talk about exit polls or other results without fear of arrest.

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Regional results from England are coming in. Sunderland so far, 3 seats, Labour winning 2, UKIP 1. Turnout 31%
    36% Labour, UKIP 29%, Conservative 18%

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Morat242Morat242 Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Front National getting 25% in France.

    That's just pitiful.
    As I understand it, also kind of inevitable. The austerians have a pretty solid lock on mainstream politics across much of Europe. As a rule, the respectable parties are either fully on board or unwilling to take a stand. And when times are desperate and the center parties are all out of ideas...well, the fringe always has ideas. The worst thing is, they're right. Seriously, the fascists of España 2000 really can solve Spain's unemployment problems...for a while. The massive stimulus that they promise would really get the economy going. Now, because they're stupid fascists, they'd be blowing money on oppressing minorities and militarizing (that can't pay off) instead of infrastructure development and education (that would). After a few years, they'd run out of minorities to pillage and the spending would start inexorably grinding everyone but the elites into poverty, but for a while, it would look really fucking appealing. It's not hard to imagine one fascist victory encouraging countries to follow them as they actually slash unemployment (temporarily) while the "normal" parties stand around with their thumbs up their asses.

    Europe has dodged two bullets already. When Fidesz turned Hungary into a de-facto one party state, it turned out that they were morons who love Reaganomics, so they aren't going to unfuck Hungary's economy. And Golden Dawn in Greece overplayed its hand, and the left more or less got its act together with SYRIZA (who just dominated the EU election, BTW), so there's an anti-austerian party that isn't far-right and nationalist.

    The real parties could, of course, get their act together, do Keynesian stimulus, and drag their countries out of the hole. But the technocrats wouldn't like it. And neither would Chancellor Merkel. So we continue this dance of idiotic death in allegiance to an incredibly stupid economic ideology, and hope there aren't too many fascist coups before Europe stabilizes.

    Panda4Youshryke
  • YogoYogo Registered User regular
    Right-wingers won a pretty big victory in Denmark today (3 mandates). Also at least 33% of the eligible voting population voted Yes to join the Unified Patent Court, so Denmark is in.

    Seeing as I voted no, I am a tad disappointed as I have a feeling that Denmark won't benefit as much from it as other countries with more economic power. A lot of our export begins at the local/national level and then expands when the market proves to be fruitful. But that usually happens because nobody bothers to patent things in Denmark since the market is deemed too small and too expensive to patent. With the lower cost of patenting ideas, I fear that future small business entrepreneurs won't be able to move as freely because of a patent block.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    More results are trickling from England. So far the Labour Party is significantly up, but UKIP is up more, the Tories down a little, LD's down a lot

    No one quite sure what is going to happen yet, but looks like UKIP will top the poll and Labour and the Tories fighting for second.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Alex Salmond laying into the BBC live on air since apparently UKIP got four times as much airtime as any other party in broadcasts aired in Scotland during the election campaign

    Kalkino
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    UKIP gains seem to be at the expense of the lib dems, mostly

    Apparently there has been a "scuffle" in Manchester involving protesters and BNP members

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Well, the LDs have lost their South West MEP, to the Greens. This was a stronghold for them

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
Sign In or Register to comment.