Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[European Politics] European Elections: This Time It's Different?

12357

Posts

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Movitz wrote: »
    I'm pretty disgusted by the fact that Front National, a party that denies the holocaust and whose founder last week stated that Ebola could be a solution to France's immigration problem, are now sending 20 people to the parliament.

    That's the same number as Sweden has commissioners in total.

    Yes yes, I know, proportional distribution of seats by population but still. Fuck that bullshit.

    You can lay this one at Merkel's feet.

    Are we allowed to blame the Germans for facists and nazis again? Awesome!

    Seriously though, how is that Merkel's fault?

    Because she's the one pushing the austerity policies down Europe's throat that's making UKIP/Front National/Espaina 2000 attractive to the public.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    shrykePanda4You
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    You know how every "serious" politician in America thinks we need to raise the retirement age to save Medicare? Europe is like that with austerity.

    Come to think of it so are we.

    Lh96QHG.png
    jakobaggerKalkinoshryke
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Merkel probably has made mistakes but then it must be an awful task trying to balance her country, Europe and trying to win elections.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    Row brews as Angela Merkel backs Juncker as EU chief

    Kalkino
  • CalixtusCalixtus Registered User regular
    Successive French governments has been running budget deficits since the 70's.

    But you know, the fact that they don't have buffer to borrow against in times of crisis is clearly Berlins fault.

    -This message was deviously brought to you by:
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    As has the UK, largely.

    It is interesting to note that France and the UK can operate deficits this way for decades without much trouble, but say NZ cannot. We tend to keep struggling back into surplus perhaps because we fear that we cannot or will not sustain long term deficit, as a marginal country,

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Morat242Morat242 Registered User regular
    Calixtus wrote: »
    Successive French governments has been running budget deficits since the 70's.

    But you know, the fact that they don't have buffer to borrow against in times of crisis is clearly Berlins fault.
    They do have a buffer. The markets are offering most of Europe (including France) oceans of free money if they will just invest it somewhere. Even though inflation is at 0.7% a year, the bond markets are only asking France for 0.118% on a one-year loan. And if they spend the money on things that grow the economy, they're even better off. That gets them a larger tax base later, and simultaneously improves the investment return in general, which means more investment and a return to growth. Keynesianism, it's not that hard.

    Not to mention, exactly what do you think the German government has been doing? You think they've been running surpluses this whole time? No, see, pre-crisis, Spain and Ireland had significant surpluses, and Germany was well into the red. How did that work out? Gee, it's almost like it's much more important to be a powerful country that (effectively) controls its own currency than it is to run a surplus. Now they've gotten moralistic about how everyone needs to adopt the economic policies that destroyed the Weimar Republic (ushering in the Nazis) for, like, no reason. Because austerity doesn't lower debt. It shrinks the economy, which makes existing debt harder to finance. That makes it less likely that the debt will be repaid, which shoots up the interest rate, which makes the debt burden explode (and the interest rate goes up even faster as you get effectively a bank run). If you're powerful and you run your own currency, you can just print more money and fuck over the speculators, which means the speculators don't go after you. If you're tied to a hard currency like gold (or subject to someone who is pretending like you are, like the ECB is for the eurozone), you are incredibly vulnerable.

    shrykeAngelHedgieCornucopiist
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    In Which David Cameron Tries Desperately to Be the Last Prime Minister of a United Britain
    German magazine Der Spiegel says British PM David Cameron warned that the UK could leave the EU if Luxembourg ex-PM Jean-Claude Juncker became president of the European Commission.

    It reported Mr Cameron as saying that the appointment could destabilise his government, which may bring forward referendum plans on EU membership.

    Downing Street has not yet commented.

    Mr Juncker's European People's Party won the largest number of seats in the European parliament in the May polls.

    The centre-right party, which also includes German Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, won 213 out of 751 seats in the Parliament and chose Mr Juncker as its candidate for the presidency, succeeding Portugal's Jose Manuel Barroso.

    But David Cameron and several other European leaders have voiced opposition to his appointment, which has received the backing of Chancellor Merkel.

    This is why you don't vote for UKIP to try to make some bumfuzzled point, fyi hth

    Lh96QHG.png
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Yeah I was wondering about that

    I'm not entirely convinced significant proportions of the UK electorate know who Jean-Claude Juncker is, never mind having strong opinions on him

    Which makes me wonder what prompted Cameron's statement

    AManFromEarthBobCescaCasual
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Well, he has to move to a harder line against strengthening the EU because his elections just told him that his country is against greater integration. Combine that with the always euro sceptic back benchers and an incoming national election next year and Davey does what politicians do best: lean into the wind.

    I look forward to watching the Tories become the left wing party to UKIP in parliament post Scottish independence.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    So ...is Juncker Lincoln and the UK the South?

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Maybe somebody should tell Cameron that!

    wilting on
  • Morat242Morat242 Registered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    So ...is Juncker Lincoln and the UK the South?
    Lincoln won a solid majority of electoral votes and a strong plurality of the popular vote. And that's with Lincoln not even on the ballot in 10 of the 11 states that seceded a few months later and unionist sentiment split three ways against unified secessionists. Juncker's more like John Quincy Adams winning the 1824 election with 31% of the vote and 84 EVs to Andrew Jackson's 41.4% and 99. The EPP hemorrhaged votes, and is down to 28%. Juncker's austerity policies are wildly unpopular. But he gets a mandate anyway.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Morat242 wrote: »
    wilting wrote: »
    So ...is Juncker Lincoln and the UK the South?
    Lincoln won a solid majority of electoral votes and a strong plurality of the popular vote. And that's with Lincoln not even on the ballot in 10 of the 11 states that seceded a few months later and unionist sentiment split three ways against unified secessionists. Juncker's more like John Quincy Adams winning the 1824 election with 31% of the vote and 84 EVs to Andrew Jackson's 41.4% and 99. The EPP hemorrhaged votes, and is down to 28%. Juncker's austerity policies are wildly unpopular. But he gets a mandate anyway.

    There is also the utterly and completely different historical events that are connected only by a shared language between participants.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    thatsthejoke

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    Yeah I was wondering about that

    I'm not entirely convinced significant proportions of the UK electorate know who Jean-Claude Juncker is, never mind having strong opinions on him

    Which makes me wonder what prompted Cameron's statement

    Basically Juncker is a European federalist, so Cameron fears he'd make life difficult for him in his "negotiations for a better deal or oil or chocolate or whatever".

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • YogoYogo Registered User regular
    The most interesting outcome of the aftermath of the European elections is that the largest party in Denmark ("Venstre" - translated as "Left", but they are like Labour in UK in terms of overall politics).

    The party suffered the largest fall in voters since ever, and it was primarily due to the chairman, Lars Lykke Rasmussen, being the center of another scandal of using tax payer money or being the recipient of donation funded by tax payer money while advocating austerity, bootsstrapping and advocating for tax relief. This isn't the first time it has happened.

    The scandal has been so damaging that the EU candidates felt that people were more interested in expressing their anger than listening to their policies. This generated a lot of anger among the voter unions and the grassroots organizations with public calls for the chairman to step down. The entire policy core of the party is eroding due to the actions of the top party.

    So now there is a large question hanging in the air: Will the chairman step down with only 6 to 9 months before new elections have to be held or will the top elite of the party stand firm and risk pissing off/losing a large amount of their supporters?

  • jakobaggerjakobagger LO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTORED Registered User regular
    Man, what? Venstre aren't comparable to Labour, they're centre-right liberals who increasingly try to pander to the right wing populist vote.

    So, more like somewhere between Tories and LibDems, if we insist on matching them to UK parties.

    bgg / steam / goodreads / Bnet: Bygasto#2537
    Panda4You
  • YogoYogo Registered User regular
    jakobagger wrote: »
    Man, what? Venstre aren't comparable to Labour, they're centre-right liberals who increasingly try to pander to the right wing populist vote.

    So, more like somewhere between Tories and LibDems, if we insist on matching them to UK parties.

    Seems my data on UK Labour is a bit out of data then. I had a picture of Tony Blair in my head and immediately I thought of Venstre. Guess I should stop living in the past.

  • Clown ShoesClown Shoes Give me hay or give me death. Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    Yeah I was wondering about that

    I'm not entirely convinced significant proportions of the UK electorate know who Jean-Claude Juncker is, never mind having strong opinions on him

    Which makes me wonder what prompted Cameron's statement

    Being seen to be putting your foot down with Johnny Foreigner is an end in itself even if no-one really know what you're arguing about.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    Well, the Spanish king has abdicated so I guess it is time for the next War of Spanish Succession

    Also, pro republic supporters are rallying in Madrid at least.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    Movitz wrote: »
    I'm pretty disgusted by the fact that Front National, a party that denies the holocaust and whose founder last week stated that Ebola could be a solution to France's immigration problem, are now sending 20 people to the parliament.

    That's the same number as Sweden has commissioners in total.

    Yes yes, I know, proportional distribution of seats by population but still. Fuck that bullshit.

    You can lay this one at Merkel's feet.

    Are we allowed to blame the Germans for facists and nazis again? Awesome!

    Seriously though, how is that Merkel's fault?

    Because she's the one pushing the austerity policies down Europe's throat that's making UKIP/Front National/Espaina 2000 attractive to the public.

    This is misanthropic rubbish. No economic policy is going to force you to become a skinhead Holocaust-denier.

    It's their own goddamn fault for being fascists, and the fault of those who voted for them.

    I figure I could take a bear.
    Julius
  • The Fourth EstateThe Fourth Estate Registered User regular
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    I'm pretty disgusted by the fact that Front National, a party that denies the holocaust and whose founder last week stated that Ebola could be a solution to France's immigration problem, are now sending 20 people to the parliament.

    That's the same number as Sweden has commissioners in total.

    Yes yes, I know, proportional distribution of seats by population but still. Fuck that bullshit.

    You can lay this one at Merkel's feet.

    Are we allowed to blame the Germans for facists and nazis again? Awesome!

    Seriously though, how is that Merkel's fault?

    Because she's the one pushing the austerity policies down Europe's throat that's making UKIP/Front National/Espaina 2000 attractive to the public.

    This is misanthropic rubbish. No economic policy is going to force you to become a skinhead Holocaust-denier.

    It's their own goddamn fault for being fascists, and the fault of those who voted for them.

    And yet support for extremist parties is well correlated to economic crisis. So there are clearly many people who would not have thought of voting for fascist parties that have had something happen to change their minds.

    steam_sig.png
    shrykePanda4YouAngelHedgieJulius
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Kalkino wrote: »
    Well, the Spanish king has abdicated so I guess it is time for the next War of Spanish Succession

    Also, pro republic supporters are rallying in Madrid at least.

    Also some Catalan flag waving going on in the usual places like Barcelona.

    488W936.png
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    poshniallo wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    I'm pretty disgusted by the fact that Front National, a party that denies the holocaust and whose founder last week stated that Ebola could be a solution to France's immigration problem, are now sending 20 people to the parliament.

    That's the same number as Sweden has commissioners in total.

    Yes yes, I know, proportional distribution of seats by population but still. Fuck that bullshit.

    You can lay this one at Merkel's feet.

    Are we allowed to blame the Germans for facists and nazis again? Awesome!

    Seriously though, how is that Merkel's fault?

    Because she's the one pushing the austerity policies down Europe's throat that's making UKIP/Front National/Espaina 2000 attractive to the public.

    This is misanthropic rubbish. No economic policy is going to force you to become a skinhead Holocaust-denier.

    It's their own goddamn fault for being fascists, and the fault of those who voted for them.

    And yet support for extremist parties is well correlated to economic crisis. So there are clearly many people who would not have thought of voting for fascist parties that have had something happen to change their minds.

    I feel there is a scientific aphorism someone could coin for this situation.

    How about 'Even if two things are correlated, that doesn't mean one caused the other, maybe these are results of a third or even multiple other factors, or maybe the second one actually caused the first. Basically correlation alone doesn't tell you anything, and anyway even if sociological factors drive an individual towards racist behaviour, I'm still going to be disgusted by the, since there are countless people experiencing economic hardship who don't want to kill all the Jews and Gypsies for it again. Oh and that AngelHedgie's logic is kinda offensively misanthropic and historically myopic.'

    I wonder if that could be tightened up some, maybe some extraneous stuff removed?

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • jakobaggerjakobagger LO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTORED Registered User regular
    I agree that austerity and economic crises generally tend to correlate with a rise in right wing extremism, and I do think there might even be some causality there.

    I also agree though that this general societal trend does not absolve individuals of their responsibility. Fascists are shits, fyi hth.

    I don't think these positions are mutually exclusive!

    bgg / steam / goodreads / Bnet: Bygasto#2537
    poshnialloJazzBobCesca
  • The Fourth EstateThe Fourth Estate Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    jakobagger wrote: »
    I agree that austerity and economic crises generally tend to correlate with a rise in right wing extremism, and I do think there might even be some causality there.

    I also agree though that this general societal trend does not absolve individuals of their responsibility. Fascists are shits, fyi hth.

    I don't think these positions are mutually exclusive!

    Policymakers bear responsibility for the consequences of their policies. Austerity has driven support of the extreme right (and left) to levels of support not seen in decades all over Europe, fueled by anger over legitimate issues those voters face. The fact that they chose the wrong target to blame doesn't stop their economic grievances being legitimate.

    It is entirely legitimate to call out the people who enabled this rise.

    The Fourth Estate on
    steam_sig.png
    shrykePanda4YouAngelHedgie
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    jakobagger wrote: »
    I agree that austerity and economic crises generally tend to correlate with a rise in right wing extremism, and I do think there might even be some causality there.

    I also agree though that this general societal trend does not absolve individuals of their responsibility. Fascists are shits, fyi hth.

    I don't think these positions are mutually exclusive!

    Policymakers bear responsibility for the consequences of their policies. Austerity has driven support of the extreme right (and left) to levels of support not seen in decades all over Europe, fueled by anger over legitimate issues those voters face. The fact that they chose the wrong target to blame doesn't stop their economic grievances being legitimate.

    It is entirely legitimate to call out the people who enabled this rise.

    You still haven't proved that cause. And even if it were true, people actually have an obligation to blame the people actually at fault (rich bankers, if anyone) rather than minorities.

    Basically there's no situation in a democracy with good freedom of information where it's not your fault that you're being a horrible racist and fascist.

    Politicians being terrible doesn't mean normal people have to. We're not drones.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • The Fourth EstateThe Fourth Estate Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    This is a basic efficacy argument.

    If you think educated middle class people telling alienated poor people that they are human scum for voting fascist is a good way to get them to desist from supporting fascists, and will not instead nurture their sense of resentment at what they perceive to be out of touch political and social elites then good luck to you.

    You're using the same logic that tough on crimes numpties use.

    EDIT: What do you think the cause of the upswing of extremist parties is then?

    The Fourth Estate on
    steam_sig.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Wait, people are arguing against the idea that financial crises encourage the growth of extremist political elements?

    Cause that's basically all AngelHedgie was saying. The european leaders who have been exacerbating the current crisis are in some ways responsible for the outcomes of that.

  • CantelopeCantelope Registered User regular
    If you want to fix part of the unemployment problem I think you always have a better chance going after immigrants than bankers. From a purely pragramatic standpoint I think it makes more sense if you are unemployed to stoke the fires of racial or ethnic tensions than it does to try to protest to get bankers held accountable.


    People at the top of society can always make excuses that seem to make some kind of sense, or are intelligable to most. I don't think there is any holding them accountable unless society falls apart. It should be noted that those unemployed are in most cases the closest to the margins. They are the most likely to be competing for jobs against immigrants. Stuff about bankers and international currency organizations make a lot less sense than "too many people, not enough jobs, kick out the immigrants."


    When anger has been focused at bankers, from what I've seen it almost has to be clothed in racial language. "It's those money-grubbing Jews," or "Those Germans are trying to enslave all of us with economics!" The people you have to incite to change society are those least in control and educated about how it works. So even if they are doing the right thing it's probably because they've been tricked into it, not because they have a rational understanding of what went wrong.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Wait, people are arguing against the idea that financial crises encourage the growth of extremist political elements?

    Cause that's basically all AngelHedgie was saying. The european leaders who have been exacerbating the current crisis are in some ways responsible for the outcomes of that.

    I think it's more a reaction to the Hedgieness of how he said it.

    Also, Putin has apparently been funding far right movements across the continent so...

    Lh96QHG.png
    Julius
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Wait, people are arguing against the idea that financial crises encourage the growth of extremist political elements?

    Cause that's basically all AngelHedgie was saying. The european leaders who have been exacerbating the current crisis are in some ways responsible for the outcomes of that.

    I think it's more a reaction to the Hedgieness of how he said it.

    Also, Putin has apparently been funding far right movements across the continent so...

    that is worrying

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Russia profits from a divided Europe. The less they can work together, the more dependent on uncle ivan they remain.

    Simple politics.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    I don't think austerity makes the poor racist.

    I think austerity may make racists poor, as can any difficult economic time.

    And if previously-comfortable racists feel uncomfortable financially, then they may move their racism from complaining about foreigners in the pub to beating them up, or voting for terrible cryptofascists.

    But I don't believe the poverty causes the racism. I believe the poverty causes the racists/anti-semites (or any extremists, as was mentioned) to be more aggressive.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • wiltingwilting Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    Worsening economic circumstances lead voters to support opposition, non-governing and smaller protest parties (even more so in local/european elections perceived of as secondary importance). This is causation, not just correlation. The actual beliefs and policies of said parties are arguably immaterial, except they must by definition radically differentiate themselves from the Governing centre in order to benefit. (Unemployment will generally hurt the governing centre left, whereas inflation will generally hurt the governing centre right. Where these votes go is another matter.)

    wilting on
    Panda4YouJulius
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    People get grumpy when they can't afford anything. Especially if it's food.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    We have people here who voted UKIP to "make a point" to labour and the lib dems.

    People in the us vote teaper because they hate how Both Sides Are Bad. It isn't always about racist voters. Sometimes it is just about dumb fuck decisions made by people who are angry, scared, or feel abandoned by The System. That's true anywhere.

    Lh96QHG.png
    shrykeKalkinoMill
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    Worsening economic circumstances lead voters to support opposition, non-governing and smaller protest parties (even more so in local/european elections perceived of as secondary importance). This is causation, not just correlation. The actual beliefs and policies of said parties are arguably immaterial, except they must by definition radically differentiate themselves from the Governing centre in order to benefit. (Unemployment will generally hurt the governing centre left, whereas inflation will generally hurt the governing centre right. Where these votes go is another matter.)

    The actual beliefs do matter for the reasons you hint at here. People turn to parties that offer clear targets.

Sign In or Register to comment.