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[Megaten/Persona Discussion] SMTxFE returns(without much SMT).

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Posts

  • Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    So it's confirmed that the P5 Protagonist's starting persona is "Arsène". Obviously a homage or direct reference to Arsène Lupin.

    Though as far as adaptions go, I don't think P5 will hold a candle to The Quantum Thief and sequels, nor will it be as fun as Lupin III. There are a truckload of adaptions and/or 'inspired by's of Arsène Lupin out there.

    ---

    Other info from Famitsu:

    The main character is a second year student who moves to the big city during spring. He lives with friends of his parents at the coffee shop they run. That said, the game takes place in urban Japan, across areas such as Shibuya.

    The protagonist has a problem of some sort that, if not faced down, could spell big trouble in the future. The scene in the trailer where he appears to be a prisoner is a “mental prison,” so to speak.

    The dungeon shown off in the trailer isn’t randomly generated. Such major places in the storyline are designed to play up the burglary motif and have special gimmicks. But that doesn’t mean randomly generated content is gone from the game altogether.

    While a Social Link option seemed to be missing from the game’s main menu in last week’s trailer, a Social Link-like system is seemingly in the works (perhaps the “Cooperation” option?).

    That's what I figured. I guess it'll work kinda like the full moon bosses in Persona 3, as in there will be a story-based dungeon every once in a while, in addition to some other place you can go to every day to level up and stuff.


    Also, a Lupin Persona? Fucking awesome.

    Maz- on
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  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    I forgot we were geting more info today. Were there scans?

    Haven't seen any yet. Famitsu & Dengeki aren't officially out yet, but like always, some people have gotten them early and started spilling beans.

    // Steam: VWinds // PSN: vagrant_winds //
    // Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    3 and 4 are better cause they have social links.

    Gimme all those social links.

    DracomicronFrosteeychiasaur11Darth_MogsTurkeygtrmpqwer12
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    Also boy do I find the art style to be about a million times more appealing in 3/4/5 than in 1/2/SMT.

    I really hate how drab, dull, and washed out the latter group of games is.

    Give me all that color and style.

  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I'm not a huge fan of social links because they stunt character growth in canon story scenes and the waifuism prevents characters other than the MC from entering meaningful relationships.

    The characters that got the most character growth in Persona 3 were the party members without social links (Junpei especially) until you got to The Answer, where the game went with the assumption of maxed social links achieved and finally gave the girls their needed character development. Persona 4 has character growth as an aspect of the character's themed dungeon and.... nothing after that in canon due to the social link structure.

    vagrant_winds on
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  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    Man I dont really care about what level of social links is strictly canon.

    Those characters all developed and had arcs in MY playthroughs, because I spent the time with them. I never played the answer and the girls were developed characters in my book.

    Would I like it if the links were better integrated into the core plot? Sure. And hopefully whatever P5 does will be a step forward here.

    But social links added so much to the game for me.

    StormwatcherTurkey
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    Social links put these characters beyond "support" status to me and made them feel like a real group of friends that I hung out with. Especially in 4. It helped me connect with them because it encouraged me to actively spend time with them, and be rewarded with a developing relationship and character growth.

    There is no cast in gaming that I am more affectionate to than the Investigation Team, and social links are a large part as to why.

    The closest I've come to that in other games is probably Bioware stuff, for much the same reasons.

    BloodsheedskyknytTurkeyan_altNitsua
  • ShenShen Registered User regular
    I'm not a huge fan of social links because they stunt character growth in canon story scenes and the waifuism prevents characters other than the MC from entering meaningful relationships.

    The characters that got the most character growth in Persona 3 were the party members without social links (Junpei especially) until you got to The Answer, where the game went with the assumption of maxed social links achieved and finally gave the girls their needed character development. Persona 4 has character growth as an aspect of the character's themed dungeon and.... nothing after that in canon due to the social link structure.

    P3 vanilla had garbage links and poor character work in general, sure. P3P Junpei was only improved by the addition of his social link though.

    The only egregious example of a character's storyline behaviour not matching their social link development is Yosuke, and I disagree that the characters don't form meaningful relationships outside of the protagonist - Yosuke and Teddie, Chie and Yosuke, and Kanji and Naoto all have connections that Golden builds on in scenes outside their links.

    Whenever people insist on making "waifus" a point of contention I just roll my eyes, given that everyone's favourite character is Kanji and my favourite link is Hisano.

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  • The AnonymousThe Anonymous Uh, uh, uhhhhhh... Uh, uh.Registered User regular
    Shen wrote: »
    everyone's favourite character is Kanji
    Wrong.

    Everyone's favourite character is Yosuke. :rotate:

  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Shen wrote: »
    everyone's favourite character is Kanji
    Wrong.

    Everyone's favourite character is Yosuke. :rotate:

    As an impartial judge, I decree that the favorite is, indeed, Kanji.

    camo_sig2.png

    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
    joshofalltradesvagrant_windsStormwatcherLoveIsUnityTurkeyMr.Skargtrmp
  • Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    Shen wrote: »
    everyone's favourite character is Kanji
    Wrong.

    Everyone's favourite character is Yosuke. :rotate:

    He is mine!

    Well, one of my favorites. I like nearly the whole cast of P4 equally.

    Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2015
    I definitely think they're worth a try, but I wouldn't even count them as part of the same series.

    Don't be a goose.

    Stylistically and mechanically they're unrelated.
    They're SMT games, not Persona games. There is very little difference between them and the majority of other SMT games, so anyone coming to them from the SMT series is going to be very comfortable. Someone coming from the Persona games will be in for a surprise -- possibly a pleasant one, if the dungeon grinding was the primary appeal of P3 and P4 for them.
    It was not, for me.
    Also I reeeeeeeally hate negotiating with demons.

    Fun fact, Persona was originally intended to not even have the SMT logo. In fact, I'm pretty sure the original version DIDN'T have the SMT logo. P1 and P2 are persona games as much as P3 and P4 are. They may feel different, but that's just how it is with the changing of times; with the evolution of how the series works. Same thing with P5; P5 is gonna have stuff like stealth and platforming; are we gonna just deny THAT as part of the Persona experience? Or perhaps we should consider P5 the new meta for how Persona is now and say that P3 and P4 aren't 'Persona' games.

    You guys are being pretty fucking uncharitable here. The point being made is that earlier Persona games are tonally and mechanically very different from later games, to the point that they're barely recognizable as sequels in those areas.

    So stop with the wounded retaliation shit because someone may have obliquely criticised a game you like.

    A duck! on
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Also boy do I find the art style to be about a million times more appealing in 3/4/5 than in 1/2/SMT.

    I really hate how drab, dull, and washed out the latter group of games is.

    Give me all that color and style.

    Nocturne aside (it's harder to do fashion, tech, and urban centers when humans just aren't there), SMT is a cyberpunk/post-apocalypse mashup so the style is different by nature. I don't think SMT4 was drab since it had a good amount of areas like parks and other places besides ruins, but it's not going to be as bright than non-demon apocalypse settings.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    I like the big, dumb, glowing towers and shit.

    Geth
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    A steak! wrote: »
    I definitely think they're worth a try, but I wouldn't even count them as part of the same series.

    Don't be a goose.

    Stylistically and mechanically they're unrelated.
    They're SMT games, not Persona games. There is very little difference between them and the majority of other SMT games, so anyone coming to them from the SMT series is going to be very comfortable. Someone coming from the Persona games will be in for a surprise -- possibly a pleasant one, if the dungeon grinding was the primary appeal of P3 and P4 for them.
    It was not, for me.
    Also I reeeeeeeally hate negotiating with demons.

    Fun fact, Persona was originally intended to not even have the SMT logo. In fact, I'm pretty sure the original version DIDN'T have the SMT logo. P1 and P2 are persona games as much as P3 and P4 are. They may feel different, but that's just how it is with the changing of times; with the evolution of how the series works. Same thing with P5; P5 is gonna have stuff like stealth and platforming; are we gonna just deny THAT as part of the Persona experience? Or perhaps we should consider P5 the new meta for how Persona is now and say that P3 and P4 aren't 'Persona' games.

    You guys are being pretty fucking uncharitable here. The point being made is that earlier Persona games are tonally and mechanically very different from later games, to the point that they're barely recognizable as sequels in those areas.

    So stop with the wounded retaliation shit because someone may have obliquely criticised a game you like.

    Yeah... I have to agree with ducksteak.

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Nanako may be the most popular character. I figure Kanji and Chie are more popular than anyone else. The rest seem more or less equally hated.

    Reynolds
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I like every character from Persona 4

    Even Teddie

    Come at me

    StormwatcherBloodsheedLockedOnTargetTurkeyXavier1216
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Junpei had a lot of stuff going on without an S-link. But then I guess he did get an S-link, huh? And he still had a lot of stuff. Maybe when an S-link is all the character has going on, they just didn't put the work in.

    Speaking of Junpei, it's still fucking weird that he loses an element at higher levels.

  • OrphaneOrphane rivers of red that run to seaRegistered User regular
    It's been a long time but I don't particularly remember junpei's s-link involving much character development as opposed to the stuff he went through in the main story

    PLAXerinkskyknyt
  • DeMoNDeMoN twitch.tv/toxic_cizzle Registered User regular
    Also boy do I find the art style to be about a million times more appealing in 3/4/5 than in 1/2/SMT.

    I really hate how drab, dull, and washed out the latter group of games is.

    Give me all that color and style.

    Have you played Nocturne? I never beat it but I got like 20 hours in and that game uses color like no other game I can think of. Still looks fucking beautiful.

    Digital Devil saga does have a slightly darker palette due to the setting but still looks just fucking fantastic.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Now...I can understand the complaints about character development in P3 but not so much P4.

    Sure, most of it was tied to social links(and honestly I don't know why people treat social links like they're not a part of the story just because they're optional) but there were also plenty of character beats in story required moments.

    Now, the only real complaint I can give is that there are very few of those story beats that take current S. Link progress into mind but that's about it.

  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    DeMoN wrote: »
    Also boy do I find the art style to be about a million times more appealing in 3/4/5 than in 1/2/SMT.

    I really hate how drab, dull, and washed out the latter group of games is.

    Give me all that color and style.

    Have you played Nocturne? I never beat it but I got like 20 hours in and that game uses color like no other game I can think of. Still looks fucking beautiful.

    Digital Devil saga does have a slightly darker palette due to the setting but still looks just fucking fantastic.

    I don't really think the games are intentionally that different. Personally I feel that the older SMT/Persona games were Atlus trying to build a world that's strikingly realistic only to have something extraordinary and horrific interrupt it. And it works, but what I feel they learned after, made work in 3 and nearly perfected in 4 was it helps to have a theme. While the previous games had a theme, they weren't very good at revolving the whole game around it.

    Yes, perhaps the world is more stylized now, maybe the people are tied to specific memes more than most in reality would, maybe the entirety of the games starting with 3 were designed to make the theme and game itself easier to play and understand. But there's nothing wrong with that, and I feel the s.links don't change the game nearly as much as the change in combat or persona collecting. The general theme of the games switched from 'grind life to a halt to kill this motherfucker' to 'better your life and those around you to kill this motherfucker easier'.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I will say, like I said before, the biggest difference between the SMT team and the current Persona seems to be adherence to old-school game mechanics.

    The Persona team is respectful of the SMT history but I feel that doesn't keep them from trying their own stuff.

    While I would say the SMT team sticks a lot closer to tradition and why they are a bit slower about changing the way they do certain things.

    Which I why I find the Persona games a bit easier to get into. SMT games always have some really annoying mechanic or oversight that keeps me from enjoying them completely.

    And for people saying that I shouldn't let gameplay problems get in the way of me enjoying a story. Remember...SMT games have a lot of gameplay...loads.

    Dragkonias on
    PLA
  • l_gl_g Registered User regular
    SMT Nocturne's look is certainly one where everything seems to have a layer of dust on it, even if it's glowing green.
    I've never beaten Nocturne, but it's impossible for me to not be impressed by its aesthetics, how fantastically they realize Kaneko's concept art into 3D, and the incredible sense of awe that they create in many moments of the game. SMT Nocturne's title screen is probably the best title screen possible for a non-Persona SMT game: the tiny, glowing main character at the base of at a literal tower of glowing-eyed, blinking demons staring out the screen at you. The game over screen takes a copy-paste of one of the low-level creatures of the game and turns it into a vision of incredible power.

    Meanwhile, I'm still pounding my way through Strange Journey. Damn Tiamat.

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    PLAskyknyt
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Also, I'm not even saying that the SMT games need to change. They have their niche and that's fine.

    I just dislike when the SMT fans start getting on the Post 3rd Persona fans for not being able to get into the other titles.

    Like its been said, sure they share a name but they are different in a lot of ways and it isn't just as simple as "has waifus"/"doesn't have waifus".

    Dragkonias on
    StormwatcherTurkey
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Also, I'm not even saying that the SMT games need to change. They have their niche and that's fine.

    I just dislike when the SMT fans start getting on the Post 3rd Persona fans for not being able to get into the other titles.

    Like its been said, sure they share a name but they are different in a lot of ways and it isn't just as simple as "has waifus"/"doesn't have waifus".

    SMT has done so many things with spinoffs that it's really not surprising for some fans to not be a fan of all entries. On paper I like the setting of Devil Summoner 3 and 4 but I couldn't maintain interest in the gameplay.

    And even fans of the core SMT games would agree it has some BS mechanics. Like random demon negotiation.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • LoveIsUnityLoveIsUnity Registered User regular
    I really like the random demon negotiation. I think it helps emphasize how fucking weird demons are that they have non linear conversation paths and bizarre desires/requirements. I like the idea that you can't always figure them out and that if you say the same thing to the same demon you can often end up with different results depending on its "mood" or whatever.

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  • heenatoheenato Alice Leywind Registered User regular
    I like semi random demon negotiation, which I don't think the game has really done. Like, from everything I've played, it's always completely random. There doesn't ever seem like there's a mechanic where a demon will be more receptive to certain actions, but it's not ALWAYS going to.

    I love the negotiation, but it's not as fleshed out as it could be.

    M A G I K A Z A M
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  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    I like that they get dumber at full moon.

  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'

    But in some games they'd just run off with your bribe or just give you back a lifestone.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • LoveIsUnityLoveIsUnity Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'

    It's awesome when you do this and then they say "you seem weak" and bounce out of there.

    Am I the only one who likes that?

    steam_sig.png
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    No.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'

    It's awesome when you do this and then they say "you seem weak" and bounce out of there.

    Am I the only one who likes that?

    For me, any appeal it might provide through atmosphere and chaotic/fickle demonic personalities is outweighed by it being a fucking unbearable gameplay convention.

    RenzoStormwatcherchiasaur11Reynolds
  • LoveIsUnityLoveIsUnity Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'

    It's awesome when you do this and then they say "you seem weak" and bounce out of there.

    Am I the only one who likes that?

    For me, any appeal it might provide through atmosphere and chaotic/fickle demonic personalities is outweighed by it being a fucking unbearable gameplay convention.

    I think that we like fundamentally different things in video games, which is fine.

    I'm more than willing to deal with bizarre random stuff if it's in the game to serve a thematic or narrative purpose.

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  • l_gl_g Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    One time while experimenting with demon negotiation mechanics on an emulator, I managed to get into a negotiation where all of my choices would make the demon angry. There are a few ways to rationalize selections on the dialogue choices, but ultimately you just have to pound your way through them until you get the right one.

    And as much as the negotiation annoys me, it has also provided me with enough moments where it makes the dungeon feel less lonely. Having encounters with characters and story occur inside the dungeons just as your navigating them, not just at major gating junctures of the dungeon, really does a lot to make the place seem much more alive and much more interesting. Another PS2 dungeon crawler, Wizardry Tale of the Forsaken Land, had this in spades.

    Strange Journey almost goes out of its way to be oldschool. Its bringing back of guns and melee weapon on the main character from SMT1/2, the character/encounter spots in the first person dungeon that only appear when you step on the tile it belongs to, choosing to step away from the Press Turn system created in Nocturne, etc. I've always thought that the thematic thread of the MC, Law Hero, Chaos Hero, Lucifer, and God together with the karmic cycle theme that pervades the mainline SMT games actually exists kind of in opposition to Persona. In Persona, everybody goes and discovers their own way and you go and discover the quirks of each of the characters, and from Persona 3 onwards, interaction with the MC drives their character progression. In mainline SMT, in overt or understated ways, the characters have a destined role and they realize their destinies in these roles on their own, frequently away from the MC. The denouement of all the character dungeons in P4 is characters saying "I'm me, and not anybody else", and that is a sentiment that would just be totally out of place in mainline SMT.

    My personal wish is for a really short SMT game, even though that's waaaaaaaay in opposition of the way the series works. I can barely make it through one run of most SMT games, and I definitely don't have the motivation to go through them more than once.

    Elsewhere: f*** Tiamat.

    l_g on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'

    It's awesome when you do this and then they say "you seem weak" and bounce out of there.

    Am I the only one who likes that?

    For me, any appeal it might provide through atmosphere and chaotic/fickle demonic personalities is outweighed by it being a fucking unbearable gameplay convention.

    I think that we like fundamentally different things in video games, which is fine.

    I'm more than willing to deal with bizarre random stuff if it's in the game to serve a thematic or narrative purpose.

    Absolutely! Of course it's fine for us to like different things in games.

    For me, if something is entirely predicated upon luck, and no amount of skill or cunning can make the outcome positive for me, it's frustrating.

    People told me to try not giving into demon's demands in SMT4 and while yes it does work some of the time, just as often it will piss them off. There's no way to negotiate with demons that will work in your favor 100% of the time. While it's true that that adds a real feeling of chaos to the game, I don't like or appreciate chaos that can suddenly and immediately result in my demise (particularly in the early game), especially when there's no real countermeasure for it.

    And you do like it because even when it screws you over, it makes the world feel more real and fleshed out to you.

    And there's nothing wrong with either of us having those opinions!

    Xavier1216Turkey
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    I'm kind of on the fence on that one.

    On one hand, using gameplay to push a game's themes is pretty fun when done right.

    On the other hand, its also very easy to do wrong and in turn create something tedious/annoying.

    Not sure where the demon negotiation sits where me as far as that goes.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Basically any game that requires me to save and reload in order to get a favorable outcome falls squarely on the annoying side of the fence.

    RenzoStormwatcherskyknyt
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