The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'
It's awesome when you do this and then they say "you seem weak" and bounce out of there.
Am I the only one who likes that?
For me, any appeal it might provide through atmosphere and chaotic/fickle demonic personalities is outweighed by it being a fucking unbearable gameplay convention.
I think that we like fundamentally different things in video games, which is fine.
I'm more than willing to deal with bizarre random stuff if it's in the game to serve a thematic or narrative purpose.
Absolutely! Of course it's fine for us to like different things in games.
For me, if something is entirely predicated upon luck, and no amount of skill or cunning can make the outcome positive for me, it's frustrating.
People told me to try not giving into demon's demands in SMT4 and while yes it does work some of the time, just as often it will piss them off. There's no way to negotiate with demons that will work in your favor 100% of the time. While it's true that that adds a real feeling of chaos to the game, I don't like or appreciate chaos that can suddenly and immediately result in my demise (particularly in the early game), especially when there's no real countermeasure for it.
And you do like it because even when it screws you over, it makes the world feel more real and fleshed out to you.
And there's nothing wrong with either of us having those opinions!
Video game designers are very good at coming up with reasons as to why they're wasting your time, demon negotiation is one of the more creative ones out there.
I would usually save prior to a negotiation because failure occasionally resulted in total party wipe. Not because I was obsessed with catching 'em all.
The only good part about demon negotiation was you could bribe the little shits. 'Here's some money, and some potions, and some of my blood, and my firstborn. Now get in formation, you annoying little gremlin.'
It's awesome when you do this and then they say "you seem weak" and bounce out of there.
Am I the only one who likes that?
For me, any appeal it might provide through atmosphere and chaotic/fickle demonic personalities is outweighed by it being a fucking unbearable gameplay convention.
I think that we like fundamentally different things in video games, which is fine.
I'm more than willing to deal with bizarre random stuff if it's in the game to serve a thematic or narrative purpose.
Absolutely! Of course it's fine for us to like different things in games.
For me, if something is entirely predicated upon luck, and no amount of skill or cunning can make the outcome positive for me, it's frustrating.
People told me to try not giving into demon's demands in SMT4 and while yes it does work some of the time, just as often it will piss them off. There's no way to negotiate with demons that will work in your favor 100% of the time. While it's true that that adds a real feeling of chaos to the game, I don't like or appreciate chaos that can suddenly and immediately result in my demise (particularly in the early game), especially when there's no real countermeasure for it.
And you do like it because even when it screws you over, it makes the world feel more real and fleshed out to you.
And there's nothing wrong with either of us having those opinions!
Yes, there is. I gotta go.
I'd have to dig it up, but it's something like acquiesce to their first demand and then refuse everything after that and they will agree to join you or whatever else you want every time.
I know there was one method in SMT IV that worked 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of the time.
Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
I mean, I understand the whole "it's a demon and they obviously don't think the same way the humans would" but if we were seriously considering immersion wouldn't there also be the option to beat the everliving shit out of an uppity demon and press gang them into your party
I mean, I understand the whole "it's a demon and they obviously don't think the same way the humans would" but if we were seriously considering immersion wouldn't there also be the option to beat the everliving shit out of an uppity demon and press gang them into your party
There is still a mythology to contend with. I mean, that's how it narratively works in Devil Survivor, but just because demons don't think like humans doesn't mean there isn't a logic unto the demons themselves. Maybe, in Persona, they will not obey a master who literally beats them down into submission. Maybe there is no ultimate physical domination of demons in the Persona universe. "Does not think like humans" does not equal "no logic." It just means different logic.
I mean, I understand the whole "it's a demon and they obviously don't think the same way the humans would" but if we were seriously considering immersion wouldn't there also be the option to beat the everliving shit out of an uppity demon and press gang them into your party
There is still a mythology to contend with. I mean, that's how it narratively works in Devil Survivor, but just because demons don't think like humans doesn't mean there isn't a logic unto the demons themselves. Maybe, in Persona, they will not obey a master who literally beats them down into submission. Maybe there is no ultimate physical domination of demons in the Persona universe. "Does not think like humans" does not equal "no logic." It just means different logic.
In that case, I feel there should be some consistency within that logic. As it is, you can attempt to recruit two different Pixies with the same responses and the results will be different.
It'd be similar to using fire magic on an ice enemy and dealing a ton of damage in one fight, then doing it again the next fight and it heals the same type of enemy. Game systems should not produce opposite results given the same input.
0
Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
Sure, I'm not disputing that. My personal opinion is that the experience of trying to negotiate with an entity with values and logic that are utterly bizarre (from a human standpoint, anyways) might not have been done justice with the negotiation that was implemented, is all. Is every demon going to be completely understood by the humans? Probably not! But if it is impossible from a human point of view to gain some understanding of how demons tick, then why bother negotiating at all?
Following this morning’s preliminary details, [email protected] has gone up with a much more detailed summary of the Persona 5 details from this week’s Famitsu.
Details include a profile for the protagonist, information about his first Persona, and an interview with the game’s staff. The magazine itself has new screenshots, too.
Get the details below.
Staff
Director: Katsura Hashino
Character Designer: Shigenori Soejima
Composer: Shoji Meguro
Characters
Protagonist – A second year high school student who moves to the big city in the spring. He lives with his parents’ friends at their coffee shop on the outskirts. He and his friends share common ground in having lost a place to live before.
Arsene (Persona) – The protagonist’s exclusive Persona. Whether it’s connected to the well-known thief is unknown.
Sound Change
The previously mentioned sound change (“The sound characters make when summoning Personas is no longer a ‘ka!’ but rather a ‘buchi!'”) applies to cut-ins in general, not just Persona summons.
Katsura Hashino (Producer and Director) Interview Tidbits
The first five bullets are repeats of the interview excerpt we covered last week, so they have been cut from this summary.
Unlike the heroes of Persona 3 and Persona 4, the protagonist of Persona 5 has a problem of some sort that, if not faced down, could spell big trouble in the future. The scene in the trailer where he appears to be a prisoner is a “mental prison,” so to speak.
The protagonist meets other two characters and cat creature in the trailer at the beginning of the game. The other two have their own life problems as well, and cat creature is mysterious, can transform, and is key to storyline.
The characters sliding around in the anime bit in the trailer was suggested by the anime director. (Production I.G is confirmed to be the studio behind Persona 5‘s anime scenes.)
The battle system is still turn-based, but is said to have a lot of changes to make it feel better to play and enjoy.
Lots of Personas are being rendered in high-definition for the first time, making it a grueling production process on that end.
Hashino is choosing to remain quiet about why Personas are appearing as actual enemies and where the protagonist has his fights. There are reasons behind those details, though.
There are indeed randomly generated elements, but major places in the storyline are designed to play up the burglary motif and have special gimmicks.
Each character has a distinct gun for their long distance weapon, though short range ones are present, too. They aren’t actual guns, but for reasons, they remain effective as weapons in combat.
Working with sympathizers around town (the original Japanese literally uses “cooperation” like in the menu) is advantageous in some way for combat.
Social Link-esque features will be discussed later, but will have new twists while still serving to power things up.
The protagonist’s seemingly docile nature is a profound ruse.
The logo design is meant to play up on the youth ensemble nature of the plot and its cast, conveying a sense of speed and dynamism.
Arsene, meanwhile, is designed to be a little more old-school, including his name, though making the whole thing come together and look stylish with that sort of constraint wasn’t without its share of challenges. Its cape / wings are meant to portray the image of a thief who lurks around places where normal people don’t belong.
Sure, I'm not disputing that. My personal opinion is that the experience of trying to negotiate with an entity with values and logic that are utterly bizarre (from a human standpoint, anyways) might not have been done justice with the negotiation that was implemented, is all. Is every demon going to be completely understood by the humans? Probably not! But if it is impossible from a human point of view to gain some understanding of how demons tick, then why bother negotiating at all?
Not to mention if we follow the idea of 'demons have different logic', then wouldn't there also be demons that demand you beat them to prove your worth, or others that throw themselves at you because they desire something you have or want safety or ride your coat tails... or maybe the demon's just kinda friendly. But that's not the case with most negotiations, it's random and strange and not consistent at all.
I don't find that innovative, I find that the sign of a lazy or unimaginative Dev, or one who wanted something deeper but couldn't do it with the tech at the time. If SMT started giving demon types personalities that made sense and stayed that way, THAT would be interesting and I'd like to see that fleshed out more. Just hitting the 'random' button every time you work out a demon's personality is lazy by today's standards. Even Pokemon have more personality than most demons, and that's a damn shame after they've been in Atlus' games for so long.
I mean, I understand the whole "it's a demon and they obviously don't think the same way the humans would" but if we were seriously considering immersion wouldn't there also be the option to beat the everliving shit out of an uppity demon and press gang them into your party
If I'm recalling SMT4 correctly, that would happen. Not because you ask them to, but because they'd stop the battle to beg for mercy. Sometimes if you agreed to stop, they'd gratefully join you. (Though maybe that didn't make it in?)
GNU Terry Pratchett
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
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So it's confirmed that the P5 Protagonist's starting persona is "Arsène". Obviously a homage or direct reference to Arsène Lupin.
Though as far as adaptions go, I don't think P5 will hold a candle to The Quantum Thief and sequels, nor will it be as fun as Lupin III. There are a truckload of adaptions and/or 'inspired by's of Arsène Lupin out there.
Now I'm hoping someone makes a mashup of P5 and this in the future.
I mean, I understand the whole "it's a demon and they obviously don't think the same way the humans would" but if we were seriously considering immersion wouldn't there also be the option to beat the everliving shit out of an uppity demon and press gang them into your party
If I'm recalling SMT4 correctly, that would happen. Not because you ask them to, but because they'd stop the battle to beg for mercy. Sometimes if you agreed to stop, they'd gratefully join you. (Though maybe that didn't make it in?)
That happened in Soul Hackers too. I also recall one particular Dark aligned demon that I could always talk into leaving me alone using the same conversation options every time, so there's at least a little constancy there.
I'm definitely glad they're making noises like they've revamped social links a bit. Wasting time hanging out with someone you hadn't earned enough points to level up was always annoying, and having to guess what the 'right' answer was (or use a faq) was a bit too gamey.
I'd rather have the link progress each time, and things branch based on your responses. Would also give that part of the game more replay value.
I just want it to no longer be suboptimal to visit the dungeon once per month. I appreciate the tension of a tight social schedule but I dislike feeling like I have to cram all my dungeoneering into one visit per month.
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
+7
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I would love if the game didn't lie about time.
"You've got a year but we're totally skipping a bunch of days."
I mean if you play optimally you'll find yourself with a lot of free time but its still annoying.
"You've got a year but we're totally skipping a bunch of days."
I mean if you play optimally you'll find yourself with a lot of free time but its still annoying.
At the very least put time skips on the calendar or something so I can plan around that shit.
+2
zllehsHiding in a box, waiting to strike.Registered Userregular
edited February 2015
Some how I never played a persona game despite being a huge jrpg fan (p2 and p3 came out during my drunken late teens and early 20s so I know what I was doing instead)
Always heard how great the series was but never got around to playing it.
That p5 trailer pushed me over the edge.
Just bought P4 on my ps3 for $10 and it feels like a steal.
I will be coming in here to discuss as I progress through the game.
Can't wait!
EDIT - Oh crap P3 is also $10... I know what I'm playing next!
Some how I never played a persona game despite being a huge jrpg fan (p2 and p3 came out during my drunken late teens and early 20s so I know what I was doing instead)
Always heard how great the series was but never got around to playing it.
That p5 trailer pushed me over the edge.
Just bought P4 on my ps3 for $10 and it feels like a steal.
I will be coming in here to discuss as I progress through the game.
Can't wait!
Should've gotten Golden, but good choice none the less.
Nintendo Console Codes
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PM Me if you add me!
HAIL HYDRA
0
zllehsHiding in a box, waiting to strike.Registered Userregular
There's very few things about the base game that aren't enhanced, extended, tweaked (for the better), or improved. It's like the Director's Cut version of a movie, but with a starting off point of an amazing 70+ hour JRPG.
I just want it to no longer be suboptimal to visit the dungeon once per month. I appreciate the tension of a tight social schedule but I dislike feeling like I have to cram all my dungeoneering into one visit per month.
I love the idea of real time in the persona games but my brain spiders make me feel real shitty when I "waste" time, double expecially when I want to roleplay what the character would do but it isn't the mathematically correct thing to do. I also would love it if I didn't have to feel like I need to do the entire dungeon in one go, bouncing back and forth between combat and conversation is more fun to me then spending 5 hours on one then the other.
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
Not sure how to incorporate timeskip-warnings into the calendar. Some of them are because of unexpected events, and some of them just fastforward normal activity without anything actually happening.
But Persona and Atlus in general do make heavy use of "You get an inexplicable feeling that you better shape up or back down"-notifications.
Not sure how to incorporate timeskip-warnings into the calendar. Some of them are because of unexpected events, and some of them just fastforward normal activity without anything actually happening.
But Persona and Atlus in general do make heavy use of "You get an inexplicable feeling that you better shape up or back down"-notifications.
Yeah, and frankly it totally ruins immersion on a blind run to be like "oh hey there are timeskips coming!"
The whole point of the timeskips is to sort of mimick how you plan out your days in real life, and woops something unexpected comes up and your schedule is fucked through no fault of your own.
Posts
Yes, there is. I gotta go.
I can understand it really messing with people who absolutely have to do/have everything and everyone.
then i inevitably ended up too underleveled to actually advance in the story so i had to fight anyways
basically I want a SMT where negotiation is also a source of experience
I'd have to dig it up, but it's something like acquiesce to their first demand and then refuse everything after that and they will agree to join you or whatever else you want every time.
I know there was one method in SMT IV that worked 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of the time.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
I really liked that in Persona 1, especially in pimple bitch's dungeon.
The last two floors in PQ certainly give the food court a run for its money, though.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
It may have failed like once.
There is still a mythology to contend with. I mean, that's how it narratively works in Devil Survivor, but just because demons don't think like humans doesn't mean there isn't a logic unto the demons themselves. Maybe, in Persona, they will not obey a master who literally beats them down into submission. Maybe there is no ultimate physical domination of demons in the Persona universe. "Does not think like humans" does not equal "no logic." It just means different logic.
In that case, I feel there should be some consistency within that logic. As it is, you can attempt to recruit two different Pixies with the same responses and the results will be different.
It'd be similar to using fire magic on an ice enemy and dealing a ton of damage in one fight, then doing it again the next fight and it heals the same type of enemy. Game systems should not produce opposite results given the same input.
Not to mention if we follow the idea of 'demons have different logic', then wouldn't there also be demons that demand you beat them to prove your worth, or others that throw themselves at you because they desire something you have or want safety or ride your coat tails... or maybe the demon's just kinda friendly. But that's not the case with most negotiations, it's random and strange and not consistent at all.
I don't find that innovative, I find that the sign of a lazy or unimaginative Dev, or one who wanted something deeper but couldn't do it with the tech at the time. If SMT started giving demon types personalities that made sense and stayed that way, THAT would be interesting and I'd like to see that fleshed out more. Just hitting the 'random' button every time you work out a demon's personality is lazy by today's standards. Even Pokemon have more personality than most demons, and that's a damn shame after they've been in Atlus' games for so long.
If I'm recalling SMT4 correctly, that would happen. Not because you ask them to, but because they'd stop the battle to beg for mercy. Sometimes if you agreed to stop, they'd gratefully join you. (Though maybe that didn't make it in?)
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
Man, you're weak. I'd better join you.
Now I'm hoping someone makes a mashup of P5 and this in the future.
That happened in Soul Hackers too. I also recall one particular Dark aligned demon that I could always talk into leaving me alone using the same conversation options every time, so there's at least a little constancy there.
I'd rather have the link progress each time, and things branch based on your responses. Would also give that part of the game more replay value.
"You've got a year but we're totally skipping a bunch of days."
I mean if you play optimally you'll find yourself with a lot of free time but its still annoying.
At the very least put time skips on the calendar or something so I can plan around that shit.
Always heard how great the series was but never got around to playing it.
That p5 trailer pushed me over the edge.
Just bought P4 on my ps3 for $10 and it feels like a steal.
I will be coming in here to discuss as I progress through the game.
Can't wait!
EDIT - Oh crap P3 is also $10... I know what I'm playing next!
Should've gotten Golden, but good choice none the less.
Switch (JeffConser): SW-3353-5433-5137 Wii U: Skeldare - 3DS: 1848-1663-9345
PM Me if you add me!
Golden is a heavily enhanced port of Persona 4 (released in 2011), it's PSVita only though.
Not exactly. More story, more content, more game mechanics.
I love the idea of real time in the persona games but my brain spiders make me feel real shitty when I "waste" time, double expecially when I want to roleplay what the character would do but it isn't the mathematically correct thing to do. I also would love it if I didn't have to feel like I need to do the entire dungeon in one go, bouncing back and forth between combat and conversation is more fun to me then spending 5 hours on one then the other.
But Persona and Atlus in general do make heavy use of "You get an inexplicable feeling that you better shape up or back down"-notifications.
Yeah, and frankly it totally ruins immersion on a blind run to be like "oh hey there are timeskips coming!"
The whole point of the timeskips is to sort of mimick how you plan out your days in real life, and woops something unexpected comes up and your schedule is fucked through no fault of your own.
This was the perfect "shit is about to get real fucking weird" game starting event.
Fuck yeah
I made toast this morning.
And then you proceed on your quest to punch every demon in the face.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //