MOTW 5-14-14: From my perspective, you are the weird one.

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Posts

  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    When has a cover ever been honest?

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    When has a cover ever been honest?
    Avengers 29

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  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Ok, that looks...problematic.

  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    When has a cover ever been honest?
    Avengers 29
    I hope not.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Can I just say that I love Iron Man's black and gold armour

    so cool

  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    Yeah, I... really hope the Not Justice League doesn't go down horribly.

    I'm tired of JL-analogs going down horribly. There are so many stories where someone does that, introducing a JL shout-out team and then butchering them to let everyone know what the score is. Planetary, Invincible, Authority... let them figure this one out without a massacre, please.

    H9f4bVe.png
    CrimsondudeGaslight
  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Registered User regular
    I have an issue with it
    What exactly is it supposed to fight? Other than Galactus and Celestials, who would kick it's ass, I'm not sure of anything about that size.
    SHIELD had Godzilla-busting as a major part of their budget for a while there. Never hurts to plan for the king of monsters deciding to wreck your shit.

    Crimsondude
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    I have an issue with it
    What exactly is it supposed to fight? Other than Galactus and Celestials, who would kick it's ass, I'm not sure of anything about that size.
    SHIELD had Godzilla-busting as a major part of their budget for a while there. Never hurts to plan for the king of monsters deciding to wreck your shit.
    Or
    Apocalypse's old base, Ship/Avalon.

    Metroplex. Maybe even Unicron. Aliens, basically. Or really big sea monsters. Maybe some gods.

    Crimsondude on
  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    The question we need to ask is
    can we afford to not have a Helicarrier that turns into a giant robot?

    H9f4bVe.png
    Crimsondudechiasaur11RingoForceVoid
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    I'm with Tony on this whole thing.

    On the Steve route they all die and their universe blows up and he gets to say 'at least we didn't sacrifice our morals'.
    On the Tony route they get to actually live another day and progress further towards a potential permanent solution.

    Steve's route is the "what are we fighting for if we become just like the Builders, Black Priests, etc?" Destroy an Earth and you're still killing billions.

    Tony's route is "let's do evil, until we can find a good way out" which is still doing an evil thing. Let's be honest, the old Authority is more "good" than the Illuminati. I like the team, but by no stretch is Steve being a jerkass in this case.

    It's odd that people flipped out over Superman snapping one neck in Man of Steel, but the Illuminati blowing up Earths and making deals with demons is still considered "good".

    The point is that the Illuminati are NOT being good; it's about good men (who aren't fucking Superman) being lead down the path of necessary evil.

    Contrasted to Sun God, the Superman analog, who is flat out never going down that path. Because he's Superman(analog).

    Oh I know, I'm just wondering why Cap is a jerk for standing up to the necessary evil. That's the point. We want our heroes to be heroes.

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  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Cap wouldn't be Cap if he bought in to the concept of "necessary" evil.

    bowen wrote: »
    The bacteria in your poop exist everywhere.
    TransporterPhillishere
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    I'm with Tony on this whole thing.

    On the Steve route they all die and their universe blows up and he gets to say 'at least we didn't sacrifice our morals'.
    On the Tony route they get to actually live another day and progress further towards a potential permanent solution.

    Steve's route is the "what are we fighting for if we become just like the Builders, Black Priests, etc?" Destroy an Earth and you're still killing billions.

    Tony's route is "let's do evil, until we can find a good way out" which is still doing an evil thing. Let's be honest, the old Authority is more "good" than the Illuminati. I like the team, but by no stretch is Steve being a jerkass in this case.

    It's odd that people flipped out over Superman snapping one neck in Man of Steel, but the Illuminati blowing up Earths and making deals with demons is still considered "good".

    The point is that the Illuminati are NOT being good; it's about good men (who aren't fucking Superman) being lead down the path of necessary evil.

    Contrasted to Sun God, the Superman analog, who is flat out never going down that path. Because he's Superman(analog).

    Oh I know, I'm just wondering why Cap is a jerk for standing up to the necessary evil. That's the point. We want our heroes to be heroes.

    Because Cap isn't standing up to "necessary evil", he's doing the same thing he did in Civil War and before that: acting violently without talking about it first.

    Here, if he actually gave them a full chance to explain, maybe afterwards he might justifiably go to violence. Instead, he's come armed to the party, assuming the need to do violence.

    The practical problem here is, what should the Illuminati actually be doing, ideally? So far, we haven't heard of a single suggestion much less successful way to resolve an incursion without one or both worlds dying, right? So, there's no right answer, right? if Cap cannot say what the Illuminati should be doing, then what's the point of his violence? Suppose he beats Tony up - something that seemed stupid in Civil War, with him punching Tony's armor, and remains stupid today - then what's next? What will Cap do at the next incursion? Try to talk the other world into not colliding with his?

    Cap is just being the naive, innocent and 'pure' child here. He's not even willing to discuss options before balling his fists.

    That's not what America is supposed to be, and it's not what Cap is supposed to be (even if both have done just that of late).

    Crimsondude
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    Cap just found out he was mind wiped. His reaction may not have been ideal but it's at least understandable.

    cardboard delusions
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    I mean, as out of character as it seems, Cap is actually right to act this way.

    I mean, for one, it's addressing the reformation of the goddamn Illuminati, who caused WWHulk in the first place, and that they brought him on to make sure that exact sort of thing dosen't happen again.

    Except, it does, and instead of listening to him they mindwipe him and kick him off for DOING WHAT THEY BROUGHT HIM ON TO DO.

    Put a little Dimension Z PTSD on top of that and you have a mad Cap sunday.

    Transporter on
    GaslightFearghaillBlankZoeLinespider5
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Yeah, it's a bit much to expect Cap to sit down and have a moderate, rational discussion at this point after Tony's crew have pretty much acted in bad faith at every turn and given the impression they've learned absolutely nothing from past mistakes they claimed they wanted Cap on board to help them avoid repeating.

    bowen wrote: »
    The bacteria in your poop exist everywhere.
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    His wasn't exactly the best contribution to the group.

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    I'm with Tony on this whole thing.

    On the Steve route they all die and their universe blows up and he gets to say 'at least we didn't sacrifice our morals'.
    On the Tony route they get to actually live another day and progress further towards a potential permanent solution.

    Steve's route is the "what are we fighting for if we become just like the Builders, Black Priests, etc?" Destroy an Earth and you're still killing billions.

    Tony's route is "let's do evil, until we can find a good way out" which is still doing an evil thing. Let's be honest, the old Authority is more "good" than the Illuminati. I like the team, but by no stretch is Steve being a jerkass in this case.

    It's odd that people flipped out over Superman snapping one neck in Man of Steel, but the Illuminati blowing up Earths and making deals with demons is still considered "good".

    The point is that the Illuminati are NOT being good; it's about good men (who aren't fucking Superman) being lead down the path of necessary evil.

    Contrasted to Sun God, the Superman analog, who is flat out never going down that path. Because he's Superman(analog).

    Oh I know, I'm just wondering why Cap is a jerk for standing up to the necessary evil. That's the point. We want our heroes to be heroes.

    Because Cap isn't standing up to "necessary evil", he's doing the same thing he did in Civil War and before that: acting violently without talking about it first.

    Here, if he actually gave them a full chance to explain, maybe afterwards he might justifiably go to violence. Instead, he's come armed to the party, assuming the need to do violence.

    The practical problem here is, what should the Illuminati actually be doing, ideally? So far, we haven't heard of a single suggestion much less successful way to resolve an incursion without one or both worlds dying, right? So, there's no right answer, right? if Cap cannot say what the Illuminati should be doing, then what's the point of his violence? Suppose he beats Tony up - something that seemed stupid in Civil War, with him punching Tony's armor, and remains stupid today - then what's next? What will Cap do at the next incursion? Try to talk the other world into not colliding with his?

    Cap is just being the naive, innocent and 'pure' child here. He's not even willing to discuss options before balling his fists.

    That's not what America is supposed to be, and it's not what Cap is supposed to be (even if both have done just that of late).

    The reason the Illuminati was broken up is because many of the things they did "for the greater good" made everything much, much worse.

    Cap knows two things: 1) the Illuminati is back 2) they mindwiped him to hide the secret.

    That's downright villainous shit right there. The entire arc of nearly every character in the Illuminati is hubris leads to downfall. Iron Man's new city... trashed. Hank messes up time by bringing the original X-Men back. Namor trashes Wakanda, and T'Challa gets exiled just for not explaining to Shuri why he's there.

    They're going to fall. They're going to be wrong. And the sad part is Reed should know this, because it's the same goddamn lesson he learned in Hickman's Fantastic Four run. Hiding avails you nothing. Keeping secrets because you know better is a foolish game to play.
    His wasn't exactly the best contribution to the group.

    I'll give you that. Doesn't change much about the Illuminati anger.

    Automaticzen on
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    Mego Thor
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    Kyougu wrote: »
    Cap just found out he was mind wiped. His reaction may not have been ideal but it's at least understandable.

    It's still childish and petulant. He has no better suggestion. That's what bugs me. It's not whether the Illuminati are wrong, it's whether Cap is right. It's not as if he's here saying "You idiots, you should have done X, that would have solved it!" At least in Civil War, he could say he had a plan even if it sucked. Here, he's only got violence.

    (Hi Crimsondude.)

  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    Kyougu wrote: »
    Cap just found out he was mind wiped. His reaction may not have been ideal but it's at least understandable.

    It's still childish and petulant. He has no better suggestion. That's what bugs me. It's not whether the Illuminati are wrong, it's whether Cap is right. It's not as if he's here saying "You idiots, you should have done X, that would have solved it!" At least in Civil War, he could say he had a plan even if it sucked. Here, he's only got violence.

    (Hi Crimsondude.)

    Kind of have to disagree, repectfully.

    The Illuminati went "This is the best way!", and Cap said "Find another way, we are not blowing up planets."

    Cap is not a hyper intelligence like Reed, or Tony. they didn't bring him on board to find answer's they couldn't.

    They brought him on board to stop them from choosing the WRONG answers. The planet buster bombs were wrong answers. They all knew it was a wrong answer. But it was the best answer they had at the time, so they went for that.

    Cap was brought on specifically because they are all intelligent men who get lost in that intelligence sometimes, and occasionally needs a moral center to remind them of who they truly are, heroes. And who better then Captian America?

    Except he did, and they didn't like it, so they brainwashed him and kicked him out of the club.

    Cap's answer was that they could find another answer. Which is true, since the Great Society DID. Countless times.

    But they took the easy way out and got Cap's morality out of their hard decisions club, because they didn't believe they could come up with better answers and that morally grey/black answers were the only way to go.

    It's pretty easy to see why Cap got the whole goddamn Avenger's upon regaining his memory.

    Gaslight
  • TexiKenTexiKen Elite Registered User regular
    I think it hasn't been written out, but I was under the impression the Great Society was just like the Illuminati in fighting back against already dead worlds (Black Priests, Mapmakers, etc). Their success is more in successfully repelling the Black Priests and Mapmakers where all those other worlds succumb to them.

    So this is actually going to be two sides who have yet to really have a true moral dilemma about the incursions.

    Cap had a better way. And then he screwed up (and probably blamed Cyclops). And in going to another alternative, which is 2 universes surviving, and 1 earth surviving, instead of nothing, he said that's stupid he's not playing anymore. Let's not forget the Illuminati haven't been had to go that far yet, they've been saved by coincidence or happenstance until now.

    And maybe Cap should just back off when the people on his side in the confrontation also go around killing people like there's no tomorrow. And it's not to say they shouldn't, I love hammers coming out of orbit to kill alien scum, or Black Widow letting someone drown due to their iron skin, but the magic line of right and wrong always seems to be dependent on Cap's mood each day.

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I think it hasn't been written out, but I was under the impression the Great Society was just like the Illuminati in fighting back against already dead worlds (Black Priests, Mapmakers, etc). Their success is more in successfully repelling the Black Priests and Mapmakers where all those other worlds succumb to them.

    So this is actually going to be two sides who have yet to really have a true moral dilemma about the incursions.

    Cap had a better way. And then he screwed up (and probably blamed Cyclops). And in going to another alternative, which is 2 universes surviving, and 1 earth surviving, instead of nothing, he said that's stupid he's not playing anymore. Let's not forget the Illuminati haven't been had to go that far yet, they've been saved by coincidence or happenstance until now.

    And maybe Cap should just back off when the people on his side in the confrontation also go around killing people like there's no tomorrow. And it's not to say they shouldn't, I love hammers coming out of orbit to kill alien scum, or Black Widow letting someone drown due to their iron skin, but the magic line of right and wrong always seems to be dependent on Cap's mood each day.

    And that's the thing. I like the Illuminati. I love reading New Avengers, but they're quite clearly wrong. I've disliked Cap since AvX, but he's absolutely right in this case.

    I just get the feeling this will end up like the climax of FF, the right answer wasn't sneaking around doing things for the greater good, it was telling the truth and trusting in the people around you, your family, and friends, to find the right answer. That's heroic. And Tony, Reed, Hank, Stephen, Namor, Black Bolt, and T'Challa have once again lost their way, as they've done individually over the years. They're so wrong-headed, it's a surprise Hank Pym isn't on the team.

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I think it hasn't been written out, but I was under the impression the Great Society was just like the Illuminati in fighting back against already dead worlds (Black Priests, Mapmakers, etc). Their success is more in successfully repelling the Black Priests and Mapmakers where all those other worlds succumb to them.

    So this is actually going to be two sides who have yet to really have a true moral dilemma about the incursions.

    Cap had a better way. And then he screwed up (and probably blamed Cyclops). And in going to another alternative, which is 2 universes surviving, and 1 earth surviving, instead of nothing, he said that's stupid he's not playing anymore. Let's not forget the Illuminati haven't been had to go that far yet, they've been saved by coincidence or happenstance until now.

    And maybe Cap should just back off when the people on his side in the confrontation also go around killing people like there's no tomorrow. And it's not to say they shouldn't, I love hammers coming out of orbit to kill alien scum, or Black Widow letting someone drown due to their iron skin, but the magic line of right and wrong always seems to be dependent on Cap's mood each day.
    Nope, The Rider says they found other ways for populated Earths, including pushing it back to its native universe, making it out of sync in time, and more.

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  • TexiKenTexiKen Elite Registered User regular
    Well that's good, they can show the Illuminati how to do that stuff then.

    And then Strange can kill them all probably.

    Golden Yak
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Except the Illuminati, who heard Rider say that, is jumping straight to ATTACK and not even trying to team-up or ask for help

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  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Except the Illuminati, who heard Rider say that, is jumping straight to ATTACK and not even trying to team-up or ask for help

    Has T'Challa told the others?

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Except the Illuminati, who heard Rider say that, is jumping straight to ATTACK and not even trying to team-up or ask for help

    Has T'Challa told the others?
    Namor was there as well

    They have literally no reason not to, outside of their own pride and arrogance

    CYpGAPn.png
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Except the Illuminati, who heard Rider say that, is jumping straight to ATTACK and not even trying to team-up or ask for help

    Has T'Challa told the others?
    Namor was there as well

    They have literally no reason not to, outside of their own pride and arrogance

    Isn't that what you need just to be on the Illuminati?

    2728312-1.jpeg

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  • Mego ThorMego Thor "I say thee...NAY!" Registered User regular
    One could almost say it was some sort of multiversal crisis.

    kyrcl.png
  • Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    The Illuminati - unlike the Cabal during Dark Reign - I think there was a point to it. It was an answer in some ways to "Why doesn't Reed Richards change the world?" You've got this group of people that are all arrogant and prideful but they're also sort of the secret powers of the world, come together to actually do something proactive. The Avengers, the Fantastic Four - they respond to threats, but they rarely try to counter them before they are threats. The X-Men, Inhumans, Atlantis, and Wakanda just want to do their own thing with their own people and nations; they've saved the world plenty of times but at the end of the day they're really all about survival.

    But as I've said, the whole situation feels a bit like a Warren Ellis b-plot. It's like the secret cabal in Planetary that brought together Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, Dr. Frankenstein, the Invisible Man...

    scan0066.jpg

    ...except applied to the Marvel Universe. It's not a particularly bright, original, or insightful take on that concept either, it's all secrets and doing-stuff-that-others-don't-have-the-guts-to-do and what-gives-you-the-right and because-we-have-to, but I think in the beginning at least when it promised that the Illuminati would create something new it was interesting.

    But the problem is, you get those particular people working together and they really should be able to solve problems and resolve conflicts at a high, behind-the-scenes level, and that's generally bad for comics. Which is part of the reason why World War Hulk worked so well: some of the smartest, most powerful people in the MU with the best of intentions screw up royally and get their comeuppance. Ideally, that should have been the end of it. Instead, we get more Warren Ellis cast-off plots.

    brass-vs-superman.jpg
    QED.

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