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[sysadmins] - International Brotherhood of Neckbeards and Mouthbreathers Local 258

19495969799

Posts

  • LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    It's not just the silly bureaucracy that unions can bring to the table. Once unions become big enough, their interests change from the employees to themselves. They become organizations with a lot of power that do everything that they can to make more money.

    We really need organizations that protect employees from their employers, but unions don't always do that.

    GaslightLe_Goat
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    wunderbar wrote: »
    Le_Goat wrote: »
    The entire theory and purpose of a union is beyond fantastic. How some unions totally abuse the power that they have totally goes against what unions were originally intended to be used for. And when you get fucked because job A has to stop because union B says Union A cannot install the glass, so that becomes job B, but because job B was just created, you now have to wait for union B to finally get around to doing job B days later, then union A can finish job B, so now everything is totally behind schedule... ugh, man, shit like that makes you feel like they're all in cahoots to squeeze as much possible out of everyone else, despite what it will do to anyone else.

    There are times when I feel like there should be unions created to protect against other unions. I've seen some dark sides of union shit. It mostly pisses me off because of the abuse of power.

    I feel the exact same way about unions. I was part of one for a number of years and it did save my ass once. But then I go back to the story of my mom. She worked in a school. They bought a new dishwasher for the staff room to repalce a busted one. It took 5 people from 3 different unions over 4 weeks to install it, and the charge to the school was 2.5x the cost of the dishwasher. They needed the carpenter, electrician, plumber and QA for both removing the old one and installing the new one. The next year some library shelves were bought. The work order was open for 4 months. The poor librarian was organizing books on the floor from september-november because they'd call the union every week about it and were brushed off, saying it wasn't high priority. Finally one weekend 3 teachers went in and put up the shelves (probably better than the union guys would have anyway) and sure as shit the union carpenters showed up on the following Tuesday with the work order. The union filed a grievance against the school and it became a big fight.

    Unions are, in theory, great. But when unions become bigger and more powerful than the companies the employees work for, that's a problem.

    There's a reason why this is the way it is.

    You needed 5 different people from 3 different unions because it required 3 different specialties, and a lot of them work with another person to speed it up (plumber and electrician mostly).

    You wouldn't call a plumber to install cabinets would you?

    Even though replacing a dishwasher is easy, it's not always. Back in the day they used to hard wire them instead of installing an outlet. General maintenance guy comes in and tries to put it in, realizes he can't, doesn't want to die, calls the electrician. Electrician comes out, decides they need to do it right, orders a part, has to wait a few days. So he installs the part then calls the general maintenance guy back out. Maintenance guy tries to put it in again, realizes the drain is the wrong size (pretty common issue). So he calls the plumber. Plumber comes out, realizes that he needs to fix the drain in the walls, rips the wall apart, fixes it, calls the carpenters to come out and fix the wall and paint.

    4 weeks later, you've got your new dishwasher.

    Don't hate the unions, they're doing it right. You should ask yourself why there isn't unions for artists and programmers and DBAs and why don't they all work like this and ask each other when shit goes wrong instead of trying to fix it themselves, fucking it up, and hiding it, and wasting more time in the end.

    It's not a race, unions are just trying to do the best possible job they can.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    TL DRDonovan PuppyfuckerApothe0sis
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    Le_Goat wrote: »
    The entire theory and purpose of a union is beyond fantastic. How some unions totally abuse the power that they have totally goes against what unions were originally intended to be used for. And when you get fucked because job A has to stop because union B says Union A cannot install the glass, so that becomes job B, but because job B was just created, you now have to wait for union B to finally get around to doing job B days later, then union A can finish job B, so now everything is totally behind schedule... ugh, man, shit like that makes you feel like they're all in cahoots to squeeze as much possible out of everyone else, despite what it will do to anyone else.

    There are times when I feel like there should be unions created to protect against other unions. I've seen some dark sides of union shit. It mostly pisses me off because of the abuse of power.

    Most amusing (cause it wasn't me) union story I ever heard was a friend of mine who worked for a staging company, setting up stages and lighting and shit for concerts. At one gig, there were two gaggles of union workers to unload all the shit from the trucks. Union A's contract stated they were to move the equipment to the top of the ramp inside the truck. Union B's contract stated they were to move the equipment from the bottom of the ramp outside the truck to the stage area.

    Nobody's contract covered the actual ramp itself. Everyone refused to do it because if they happened to get hurt moving equipment on the ramp, their union wouldn't cover their medical claim.

    Still, would you want to do work if it meant you could hurt your back or legs and you'd have to pay out of pocket to get it looked at (their health insurance wouldn't cover it).

    A lot of us would hem and haw, some of us would eventually do it because we're a bunch of push overs.

    If a company delivered a server box that weight 100 lbs and it said "team lift" on it, would you lift it yourself when everyone was out that day?

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    wunderbar wrote: »
    Le_Goat wrote: »
    The entire theory and purpose of a union is beyond fantastic. How some unions totally abuse the power that they have totally goes against what unions were originally intended to be used for. And when you get fucked because job A has to stop because union B says Union A cannot install the glass, so that becomes job B, but because job B was just created, you now have to wait for union B to finally get around to doing job B days later, then union A can finish job B, so now everything is totally behind schedule... ugh, man, shit like that makes you feel like they're all in cahoots to squeeze as much possible out of everyone else, despite what it will do to anyone else.

    There are times when I feel like there should be unions created to protect against other unions. I've seen some dark sides of union shit. It mostly pisses me off because of the abuse of power.

    I feel the exact same way about unions. I was part of one for a number of years and it did save my ass once. But then I go back to the story of my mom. She worked in a school. They bought a new dishwasher for the staff room to repalce a busted one. It took 5 people from 3 different unions over 4 weeks to install it, and the charge to the school was 2.5x the cost of the dishwasher. They needed the carpenter, electrician, plumber and QA for both removing the old one and installing the new one. The next year some library shelves were bought. The work order was open for 4 months. The poor librarian was organizing books on the floor from september-november because they'd call the union every week about it and were brushed off, saying it wasn't high priority. Finally one weekend 3 teachers went in and put up the shelves (probably better than the union guys would have anyway) and sure as shit the union carpenters showed up on the following Tuesday with the work order. The union filed a grievance against the school and it became a big fight.

    Unions are, in theory, great. But when unions become bigger and more powerful than the companies the employees work for, that's a problem.

    There's a reason why this is the way it is.

    You needed 5 different people from 3 different unions because it required 3 different specialties, and a lot of them work with another person to speed it up (plumber and electrician mostly).

    You wouldn't call a plumber to install cabinets would you?

    Even though replacing a dishwasher is easy, it's not always. Back in the day they used to hard wire them instead of installing an outlet. General maintenance guy comes in and tries to put it in, realizes he can't, doesn't want to die, calls the electrician. Electrician comes out, decides they need to do it right, orders a part, has to wait a few days. So he installs the part then calls the general maintenance guy back out. Maintenance guy tries to put it in again, realizes the drain is the wrong size (pretty common issue). So he calls the plumber. Plumber comes out, realizes that he needs to fix the drain in the walls, rips the wall apart, fixes it, calls the carpenters to come out and fix the wall and paint.

    4 weeks later, you've got your new dishwasher.

    Don't hate the unions, they're doing it right. You should ask yourself why there isn't unions for artists and programmers and DBAs and why don't they all work like this and ask each other when shit goes wrong instead of trying to fix it themselves, fucking it up, and hiding it, and wasting more time in the end.

    It's not a race, unions are just trying to do the best possible job they can.

    Also because historically "role creep" was how people got screwed out of compensation, hence why the rules got incredibly strict on who does what.

    bowenDonovan PuppyfuckerApothe0sis
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    edited April 2015
    bowen wrote: »
    You wouldn't call a plumber to install cabinets would you?
    That is a cop out used to justify every tiny incident. In general, yes you are right, but installing a slate of glass into a piece of furniture isn't hard at all. I've put Ikea furniture together. It shouldn't take 3 days to organize.

    Again, in theory it makes total sense. In reality/practice, it's bullshit and totally taken advantage of.

    Edit: I'm not saying unions shouldn't exist, but there really should be some sort of governing body to limit thereir power because it's grown out of control. They've become as evil as the things they were protecting themselves against originally.

    Le_Goat on
    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited April 2015
    Le_Goat wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    You wouldn't call a plumber to install cabinets would you?
    That is a cop out used to justify every tiny incident. In general, yes you are right, but installing a slate of glass into a piece of furniture isn't hard at all. I've put Ikea furniture together. It shouldn't take 3 days to organize.

    Again, in theory it makes total sense. In reality/practice, it's bullshit and totally taken advantage of.

    It's not a cop out, everyone has their job. Unions prevent role creep.

    If you start letting carpenters install rough plumbing because it's easy, you also put plumbers out of the job.

    How many have us have said "why am I fucking doing this?" when it comes to our jobs. It's because you shouldn't be.

    I've known some pretty whipped people on the job. If they were tasked with installing glass onto a desk, and they scratched the desk or broke the glass, the company would take it out on them and dock their pay (illegal) but they'd allow it because they feel like they fucked up.

    But if the proper union worker had done it, the union's insurance would've covered it, but more to the point, you would've had someone who's trained in dealing with those situations.

    I know the SE++ guy was pissed that it held up him setting up his stage, but you do not want to be on the line when someone gets hurt, especially yourself.

    All those stories people tell you? They're exaggerated and made to paint the unions in a bad light because blue collar middle management that those people tend to be get put into the position of having to deal with it. Or the other union has to wait, but what the union guy won't tell you is his crew will do the exact same thing.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    TL DRDonovan PuppyfuckerApothe0sis
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    That specific SE++ union conversation probably went down like, "Are you going to insure us if something gets damaged or someone gets hurt?"

    and the boss said "lol fuck you, do it."

    and that's when both unions went "lol fuck you too."

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    electricitylikesmeDonovan PuppyfuckerApothe0sis
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    edited April 2015
    I'm not saying that you are wrong with the scenarios that you are referring to. In fact, I believe you are absolutely correct. The problem is that all of the pro-union people talk only about such scenarios and try to equate everything that is done to those scenarios. It's like having a discussion with a vegan: no matter what your point is, they'll always revert back to something that really doesn't have much to do with what you're talking about.

    Let me use my example. As a customer, if I need glass installed, I should be able to shop around. If a company tells me "Sorry, we can't do it for another 3 days," I should be fully entitled (as the customer) to say "Thanks, but I need it before then, so I'll shop elsewhere." That doesn't happen with unions. If a company is too busy that they have to put a job off for several days, then they don't need the work enough, so I should be allowed to look for someone else that will. There is absolutely nothing wrong with looking for another company to perform the job that another company is too busy to perform. Unfortunately, that won't happen with unions the way they operate today.

    In regards to the breaking of glass, if a company damages equipment they are installing, they are the ones who soak up the costs. It's a very simple business practice.

    One of the most ironic thing about unions is that they are a rather hardcore liberal ideal, but they operate and behave like right-wing nutjobs with the "our shit is just fine the way it is, don't take away our money or shit because it's ours and fuck the general public if the way we do things is hurting them because we're just fine the way we are" mentality. It's hilarious and gruesomely painful at the same time.

    EDIT: I just want reiterate that I am not anti-union; I actually very pro-theory-behind-unions. I am for checks and balances, fairness, and equality. We all know what happens when power goes unchecked; that's why unions were created in the first place.

    Le_Goat on
    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
    wunderbar
  • wunderbarwunderbar What Have I Done? Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    wunderbar wrote: »
    Le_Goat wrote: »
    The entire theory and purpose of a union is beyond fantastic. How some unions totally abuse the power that they have totally goes against what unions were originally intended to be used for. And when you get fucked because job A has to stop because union B says Union A cannot install the glass, so that becomes job B, but because job B was just created, you now have to wait for union B to finally get around to doing job B days later, then union A can finish job B, so now everything is totally behind schedule... ugh, man, shit like that makes you feel like they're all in cahoots to squeeze as much possible out of everyone else, despite what it will do to anyone else.

    There are times when I feel like there should be unions created to protect against other unions. I've seen some dark sides of union shit. It mostly pisses me off because of the abuse of power.

    I feel the exact same way about unions. I was part of one for a number of years and it did save my ass once. But then I go back to the story of my mom. She worked in a school. They bought a new dishwasher for the staff room to repalce a busted one. It took 5 people from 3 different unions over 4 weeks to install it, and the charge to the school was 2.5x the cost of the dishwasher. They needed the carpenter, electrician, plumber and QA for both removing the old one and installing the new one. The next year some library shelves were bought. The work order was open for 4 months. The poor librarian was organizing books on the floor from september-november because they'd call the union every week about it and were brushed off, saying it wasn't high priority. Finally one weekend 3 teachers went in and put up the shelves (probably better than the union guys would have anyway) and sure as shit the union carpenters showed up on the following Tuesday with the work order. The union filed a grievance against the school and it became a big fight.

    Unions are, in theory, great. But when unions become bigger and more powerful than the companies the employees work for, that's a problem.

    There's a reason why this is the way it is.

    You needed 5 different people from 3 different unions because it required 3 different specialties, and a lot of them work with another person to speed it up (plumber and electrician mostly).

    You wouldn't call a plumber to install cabinets would you?

    Even though replacing a dishwasher is easy, it's not always. Back in the day they used to hard wire them instead of installing an outlet. General maintenance guy comes in and tries to put it in, realizes he can't, doesn't want to die, calls the electrician. Electrician comes out, decides they need to do it right, orders a part, has to wait a few days. So he installs the part then calls the general maintenance guy back out. Maintenance guy tries to put it in again, realizes the drain is the wrong size (pretty common issue). So he calls the plumber. Plumber comes out, realizes that he needs to fix the drain in the walls, rips the wall apart, fixes it, calls the carpenters to come out and fix the wall and paint.

    4 weeks later, you've got your new dishwasher.

    Don't hate the unions, they're doing it right. You should ask yourself why there isn't unions for artists and programmers and DBAs and why don't they all work like this and ask each other when shit goes wrong instead of trying to fix it themselves, fucking it up, and hiding it, and wasting more time in the end.

    It's not a race, unions are just trying to do the best possible job they can.

    Again, in theory sure. But when a carpenter literally comes in, unscrews a board, and says he can't do anything else until the plumber comes in and turns off the water supply hose that was behind the board, we're getting a little stupid.

    and yes that happened. The Carpenter charged for 3 hours of time for that. When the plumber came in he literally turned a lever to turn off a water supply, again charging for 3 hours time to do so, so the carpenter could come back and finish removing the dishwasher.

    I'm sorry, but that's not right.

    XBL: thewunderbar PSN: thewunderbar NNID: thewunderbar Steam: wunderbar87 Twitter: wunderbar
    Le_Goat
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited April 2015
    It is right though.

    What if, by shutting off the water supply, the carpenter had caused a break in the main in the building? He doesn't know the rules, he doesn't know the fallout.

    Think of all the times you've said "this is bullshit, why am I doing this?" and it's because at one point someone decided you're skilled enough to shut off the main, and then, it expanded from there.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    SeidkonaelectricitylikesmeMr_RoseNijaiTunesIsEvilDonovan PuppyfuckerApothe0sis
  • chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

    - Henry The Sixth, Part 2 Act 4, scene 2

  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    edited April 2015
    But what does that have to do with shutting down the job of building cubicles because the glaziers union demands to install the slats of glass which just slide on top of the cubicle barriers right into their guides, which anyone can do? Doing that delayed the entire operation by days and caused a shit ton of problems. This scenario has nothing to do with shutting off a water supply and the dangers that it could cause. Just realized your comment was in response to wunderbar's.

    Okay, we're obviously at an impasse. We've said our parts and I respect your point of view, but I'm just going to concede here.

    Le_Goat on
    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
  • wunderbarwunderbar What Have I Done? Registered User regular
    On a 1/8" hose, flood the building? What?

    You know what, no. I'm going to tap out as well. There's no way for this line of discussion to end well. I'll agree to disagree, and kind of leave it at that.

    XBL: thewunderbar PSN: thewunderbar NNID: thewunderbar Steam: wunderbar87 Twitter: wunderbar
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    wunderbar wrote: »
    On a 1/8" hose, flood the building? What?

    You know what, no. I'm going to tap out as well. There's no way for this line of discussion to end well. I'll agree to disagree, and kind of leave it at that.

    You reach down, twist the tap, the pipe fails and the valve turns to nothing in your hands (this happened to me with an air compressor once).

    Water is now gushing out into the backboard of the kitchen, so pretty much expect all that stuff to have to be replaced because it's going to be soaked in the 5-10 mins it'll take to find the next main and turn that off. Which might be an appreciable amount of the building.

    Ah you say! That's clearly not the carpenters fault!

    Yes, obviously...except that when it gets decided by lawyers from everywhere who's to blame. The company will kick it to the carpenter's union arguing they obviously broke it, even if its actually a building maintenance issue, and then argue that they're not liable because the carpenter was clearly doing plumbing work. The carpenter insurance then concurs, pushes it down to the guy who literally just twisted a tap.

    This is exactly what will happen. Management always wants everyone to just help out, because then they don't have to pay them, nor take responsibility. Stuff you do in your own home, for yourself, is very different to stuff you have to do 100x a day where the probability of failure goes way up, and what you could damage expands dramatically.

    bowenSeidkonaVegemyteNijaiTunesIsEvilTL DRDonovan PuppyfuckerApothe0sisMvrck
  • rwextremerwextreme Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    You should ask yourself why there isn't unions for artists and programmers and DBAs and why don't they all work like this and ask each other when shit goes wrong instead of trying to fix it themselves, fucking it up, and hiding it, and wasting more time in the end.

    I've grown up with my father being part of a union at Rockwell Automation for decades and my step father being a union member for most of his time in the workforce as well.

    My father was nearly completely ignored by the union when he fell ill back in the 90's. His employer, despite him still being able to work between treatments, did everything they could to force him out and his union reps did jack shit but would they ever ride his ass along with everyone else when it came time to negotiate their contract and wholly expected their unwavering support for anything and everything the union said they needed. The short version is they eventually forced him out, lost his benefits and had to go with COBRA and despite promises of having the same coverage as before which would have covered a then experimental proton beam therapy that wasn't the case and the last several months of his life were spent fighting pencil pushers trying to get the treatment approved. He spent most of my time in high school sick and died from a brain tumor before he would get to see me graduate, get married or see his grandchild and the union didn't care.

    My step father, union didn't go to bat for him either. Injured on the job, messed up his knees and back real good. His employers reaction to his request for a different position that didn't require as much physical work was to stick him on a machine that he had never run before and typically requires a significant amount of technical education to operate. They fired him when he couldn't get the work done and the union did not a thing. During the time he was still employed he had to battle to try and get his employer to cover his injuries while his union did nothing.

    Screw unions, I'll never give any of them a dime of my money - and fortunately the guy I voted for made that an assurance now that Wisconsin is right to work state. I can't even imagine how many years behind the IT industry would be as a whole from a technology perspective or how many more security vulnerabilities we would have if unions were the norm as they have been for some other trades. I'd wager with unions in the mix holding back the employees from meaningful and productive collaboration because of union divisions that the IT landscape would look a good 10 years behind from where it is now at a minimum.

  • CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    Hey guys, how about those SYSTEMS AND THE ADMINISTRATION THEREOF?

    Delmain
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    Hey guys, how about those SYSTEMS AND THE ADMINISTRATION THEREOF?

    You should go ahead and write a program for your server, duh.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    Apothe0sis
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    I'm upgrading PatchManager to 2.1.0.1061. Hooray sysadmin stuff!

    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
  • CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    I'm blatantly sitting on my ass with the built-in excuse that I'm watching a vendor remotely install his company's software. Which I am. He's taking his sweet time about it, and I'm not doing anything that might hurry the process in any way.

    Seidkona
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited April 2015
    rwextreme wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    You should ask yourself why there isn't unions for artists and programmers and DBAs and why don't they all work like this and ask each other when shit goes wrong instead of trying to fix it themselves, fucking it up, and hiding it, and wasting more time in the end.

    I've grown up with my father being part of a union at Rockwell Automation for decades and my step father being a union member for most of his time in the workforce as well.

    My father was nearly completely ignored by the union when he fell ill back in the 90's. His employer, despite him still being able to work between treatments, did everything they could to force him out and his union reps did jack shit but would they ever ride his ass along with everyone else when it came time to negotiate their contract and wholly expected their unwavering support for anything and everything the union said they needed. The short version is they eventually forced him out, lost his benefits and had to go with COBRA and despite promises of having the same coverage as before which would have covered a then experimental proton beam therapy that wasn't the case and the last several months of his life were spent fighting pencil pushers trying to get the treatment approved. He spent most of my time in high school sick and died from a brain tumor before he would get to see me graduate, get married or see his grandchild and the union didn't care.

    My step father, union didn't go to bat for him either. Injured on the job, messed up his knees and back real good. His employers reaction to his request for a different position that didn't require as much physical work was to stick him on a machine that he had never run before and typically requires a significant amount of technical education to operate. They fired him when he couldn't get the work done and the union did not a thing. During the time he was still employed he had to battle to try and get his employer to cover his injuries while his union did nothing.

    Screw unions, I'll never give any of them a dime of my money - and fortunately the guy I voted for made that an assurance now that Wisconsin is right to work state. I can't even imagine how many years behind the IT industry would be as a whole from a technology perspective or how many more security vulnerabilities we would have if unions were the norm as they have been for some other trades. I'd wager with unions in the mix holding back the employees from meaningful and productive collaboration because of union divisions that the IT landscape would look a good 10 years behind from where it is now at a minimum.

    TIL worker exploitation is the way to technological progress!

    http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/

    http://news.cnet.com/Electronic-Arts-faces-overtime-lawsuit/2100-1043_3-5450316.html

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/2045966/us-it-worker-files-hiring-lawsuit-against-infosys.html

    http://www.lieffcabraser.com/Case-Center/Employment-Overtime-Lawsuit-for-Wells-Fargo-IT-Workers.shtml

    http://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html

    http://www.computerworld.com/article/2510279/it-outsourcing/fired-it-workers-file-lawsuit-claiming-h-1b-workers-replaced-them.html

    Edit: Wish I could find that video @AngelHedgie 's linked before with the law firm telling companies how they rig job postings so they won't find anyone "qualified" and then they can bring in someone on the cheap on a visa.

    hippofant on
    iTunesIsEvilApothe0sis
  • wunderbarwunderbar What Have I Done? Registered User regular
    It is 2015 and I just sat in an hour long meeting where most of it was talking about how to handle faxing.

    It is 2015.

    XBL: thewunderbar PSN: thewunderbar NNID: thewunderbar Steam: wunderbar87 Twitter: wunderbar
    Le_GoatRandomHajileTL DR
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    Some institutions still believe it is the safest method of transmitting sensitive information.

    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Do you deal with doctors or lawyers?

    I told my boss that even banks are past faxing now.

    But he just shrugged and told me that his peers and the hospital are slow to change.

    Medicare is moving to direct messaging which is basically a special type of email system with trust certificates and all that.

    Seems like you could've just set up normal email with some pretty brain dead encryption. "Here's my public key, I'll send emails to this account" but nope, it's really, really, really fucked up.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    DelmainApothe0sis
  • CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    wunderbar wrote: »
    It is 2015 and I just sat in an hour long meeting where most of it was talking about how to handle faxing.

    It is 2015.

    I'm upgrading our faxing software this week. Faxes will never die, because apparently a shitty, blurry picture of a signature is better than an electronically captured or high res digital scan of a signature, or biometrics.

    RandomHajile
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    http://wiki.directproject.org/Reference+Implementation+Components

    This is basically how the direct messaging component works for medicare.

    I mean it's basically email, but not, and they went WAY overboard for securing it.

    Seriously what the fuck were they thinking?

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    edited April 2015
    bowen wrote: »
    I told my boss that even banks are past faxing now.
    Funny, because the specific institutions that I'm referring to are banks. We have banks that refuse to email anything sensitive and only deal with faxing. Don't tell them, but we have a digital faxing system in place that once they fax to the number, it gets converted into an PDF which is then emailed to our user(s).

    Le_Goat on
    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    fax machines and printers

    that which is dead can never die

    bowenLe_GoatAiserou
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    wunderbar wrote: »
    It is 2015 and I just sat in an hour long meeting where most of it was talking about how to handle faxing.

    It is 2015.

    I'm upgrading our faxing software this week. Faxes will never die, because apparently a shitty, blurry picture of a signature is better than an electronically captured or high res digital scan of a signature, or biometrics.
    I can't find the article, but several years ago they shut down a bank's branch for a bomb threat. When the police showed up to analyze the situation, it was determined that the fax that had come through was really an advertisement talking about blow out sales or something of the nature. The reason why the staff freaked (rightfully so) was that the fax was not only blurry, but cut out halfway through, so all they saw was the top 3/4 of an old school bomb ball.

    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
    RandomHajileRBach
  • CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    This article is hyping up about that old story of the paperless office, 22 years ago. It's also hilariously dated.
    * The San Jose Mercury, a Silicon Valley newspaper, stepped into the information age this month by creating an electronic edition that appears daily on America On-Line, a dial-up database service like Prodigy.

    Le_GoatGaslightTofystedethTL DR
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Holy fuck.

    I'm looking through the documentation of this direct message component...

    It looks like all they do is go "Yo dawg, am I allowed to send to you?"

    And the server responds "Yeah dawg, send your email."

    And then they do.

    I see no encryption/decryption going on!

    PHI and email looks like it's being sent out over the wire completely unencrypted!

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    RandomHajileTL DRApothe0sisVegemyte
  • wunderbarwunderbar What Have I Done? Registered User regular
    We have a couple of old school (read: old) and very important users who will not give up their dedicated fax machines, even if a fax server is a better solution. We also have a legal aspect that our lawyer probably will need to keep.

    for the other 5-6 fax lines we have (yes we have that many) we're probably going to end up with a fax server and email and/or print to fax or whatever. But it is going to be painful getting there.

    XBL: thewunderbar PSN: thewunderbar NNID: thewunderbar Steam: wunderbar87 Twitter: wunderbar
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    wunderbar wrote: »
    We have a couple of old school (read: old) and very important users who will not give up their dedicated fax machines, even if a fax server is a better solution. We also have a legal aspect that our lawyer probably will need to keep.

    for the other 5-6 fax lines we have (yes we have that many) we're probably going to end up with a fax server and email and/or print to fax or whatever. But it is going to be painful getting there.

    I would refuse to do support with them and let them know that having the physical machine is a DIY situation. If they break it, they're forced into the fax server/email situation.

    Tyranny is pretty great. Also, fuck diagnosing fax machines, that is literally voodoo magic.

    "Bowen, why isn't our fax machine working?"
    "I just dialed it, it's picking up."
    "Well XYZ said it was busy."
    "Well it was busy then, they should try again later."
    "Well they've said it was busy for 4 hours."
    "Then it was busy for 4 hours."

    I'm not really sure what they're looking for me to say there.

    Or my personal favorite:

    "Bowen, we're not getting faxes!"
    "What do you mean I can see two active calls right now that have been going on for 40 minutes."
    "Oh well we haven't gotten anything in an hour!"
    "Because you have two faxes tying up our 2 fax lines in the hunt group for that hour, you can't get faxes if they're tied up. Just like you can't get phone calls while you're talking on the phone."

    WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT FROM ME

    They really hate it when I tell them "this is how phones work, what do you want me to do?"

    But that is more satisfying than going "sure I'll look into it" and doing nothing and they just leave me alone and everything works because that's how shit rolls.

    I remember being brought into my boss' office during the last huge "we can't get super important medical records because we wait until the day of the patient visit to request them and it takes 1 hour per and 2 fax lines, and we have 20 new patients today."

    "What can we do to make sure this stops happening, Bowen?"
    "You can get more fax lines."
    "How much will that cost?"
    "The fax lines? About $15 per month per line. But you'll also have to upgrade our phone system because we're maxed out on how many fax lines we can put in for our fax2pdf system. That will be about $30,000 with labor. I don't know if they'll honor the 50% off deal they offered you when we expanded our building and you decided you probably wouldn't need the capacity."

    He just looked at me and said, "oh."

    I give no more fucks I guess. Fuck you fax lines, suck my dick.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    Le_GoatSeidkonaTL DRApothe0sisVegemyte
  • wunderbarwunderbar What Have I Done? Registered User regular
    Well when those two are the president and vice president of the company we don't exactly get to say no to them :rotate:

    XBL: thewunderbar PSN: thewunderbar NNID: thewunderbar Steam: wunderbar87 Twitter: wunderbar
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Shit is his desk

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    SeidkonaApothe0sisVegemyte
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    bowen, the giver of shits and knives

    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
    bowenApothe0sis
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Well I guess I do give at least one more fuck in that story.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • rwextremerwextreme Registered User regular
    wunderbar wrote: »
    It is 2015 and I just sat in an hour long meeting where most of it was talking about how to handle faxing.

    It is 2015.


    You don't work for one of those dream vacation companies do you?

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    OH SHIT GUYS 100 PAGES WE DID IT!

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    Oh, yesterday just before I left, 5 minutes before EoB, I had a user stop by and tell me

    "Hey, there's been something weird going on with my computer. I've been having to use it in safe mode for the last few days. (!) I figure it's time I ask you guys to do something about it."

    ......

    Jesus Christ, you bring this to me now? 4:55 pm? I'm not even the fucking desktop guy.

    Well, could you go ahead and reboot it one more time for me?

    "Sure, that will take me a few minutes, I'll let you know if it helps!"

    /undock Surface. Walk.



    User stops by this morning.

    "Hey, thanks, whatever you did fixed it!"

    tznk5q9tacrpzcsb5ebb.jpg

    bowenTofystedethLe_GoatRandomHajileInfidelDelmainJimboAiserouVegemyteBigity
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    hahahaha I bet they booted into safe mode once because the power went out or something and just haven't turned off their PC in a week.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    CogSeidkonaLe_GoatJimboVegemyteBigity
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