Pitching in. I agree with the criticism. Wind Waker was a very, very underwhelming game.
Story: Overrated. Gaping plot holes. Decent characterization of Ganondorf but so what? Also relied more heavily on nostalgia than I think people are often willing to acknowledge. Going beneath the ocean was alright.
Combat: grindy, slow and absurdly easy. I replayed LTTP recently and fuck me, I died! I died quite a bit in some cases. And that was a good thing. Ocarina and Majora's Mask both had good, solid combat. Compare darknuts/iron knuckles and like-likes across the games for really poignant examples of how stripped back and simple the swordplay became. And don't get me started on the boss fights. They were cakewalks. And for all of the hubbub around the ending, I beat Ganondorf so quickly I thought it was surely a multi-stage fight: I almost did it by accident. In contrast, look at these ominous motherfuckers. Gyorg? Gyorg! There were entire walkthroughs written up specifically on how to beat this guy! The only even vague challenge posed in WW was Puppet Ganon.
Exploration: will people shut up about the ocean already. Hooray, I get to cast a spell and sail in a straight line - unless I get sidelined by one of the onerous random encounters. Boring. Teeth crushingly boring. How does that even begin to compare to overworld travel in Zeldas past and since (not played through Skyward yet). Furthermore, the relief of finally coming across land is soon tempered by the disappointing smallness of everything. Islands like the chu-chu one in the north are facile distractions with no satisfaction whatsoever to be found in its uninspired busywork.
Puzzles: what puzzles.
Dungeons: similar to combat. Breezed through them. No character, no memorable bits apart from a big jump I dimly recall in the tree dungeon and of course the approach to Dragon Roost island (because of the theme music, mostly). Ached for the absence of enough proper, solid challenges. Arriving at the broken island and knowing, knowing there was supposed to be a proper dungeon there was just so anticlimactic. The Tower of the Gods and the forced return to the first dungeon were further kicks in the teeth. They tried to make stuff bigger thinking it would be better. They were wrong.
I have played and replayed a great many Zelda games. They all have different things to love. Yet I have never even been slightly interested in revisiting WW's insipid, empty, boring world.
Twilight Princess, though, was for the most part an absolute triumph. The yeti house alone is one of the best dungeons Zelda had seen since OOT's Forest Temple, but it also has great puzzle play, brilliant aesthetics, far better dialogue and a great character in Midna, proper meaningful exploration with secrets and caves and fissures to explore, and overall more detail and boldness in just a few levels of its design than the entirety of the flooded world.
Letting my mind wander while I was sailing though, I did have a (maybe?) interesting idea.
How about a Zelda game where you're playing as Gannondorf? I don't know how everything would work, but it would be like setting the game up for Link. Basically you'd have all the dungeon items you need at the start, and you would run your way through them using said items/gadgets. The boss would be that dungeon/temple's sage, and defeating/sealing them means you have to use that dungeon item and leave it behind (Which is why Link finds that stuff in those dungeons). Before departing that particular dungeon/temple, you'd appoint some big monster thing as the "boss". Meant to guard it from any potential pesky heros.
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
I have played and replayed a great many Zelda games. They all have different things to love. Yet I have never even been slightly interested in revisiting WW's insipid, empty, boring world.
Twilight Princess, though, was for the most part an absolute triumph. The yeti house alone is one of the best dungeons Zelda had seen since OOT's Forest Temple, but it also has great puzzle play, brilliant aesthetics, far better dialogue and a great character in Midna, proper meaningful exploration with secrets and caves and fissures to explore, and overall more detail and boldness in just a few levels of its design than the entirety of the flooded world.
Letting my mind wander while I was sailing though, I did have a (maybe?) interesting idea.
How about a Zelda game where you're playing as Gannondorf? I don't know how everything would work, but it would be like setting the game up for Link. Basically you'd have all the dungeon items you need at the start, and you would run your way through them using said items/gadgets. The boss would be that dungeon/temple's sage, and defeating/sealing them means you have to use that dungeon item and leave it behind (Which is why Link finds that stuff in those dungeons). Before departing that particular dungeon/temple, you'd appoint some big monster thing as the "boss". Meant to guard it from any potential pesky heros.
I mean thete are games like this and theyre pretty fun. Id never want to play a zelda game like that though
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Letting my mind wander while I was sailing though, I did have a (maybe?) interesting idea.
How about a Zelda game where you're playing as Gannondorf? I don't know how everything would work, but it would be like setting the game up for Link. Basically you'd have all the dungeon items you need at the start, and you would run your way through them using said items/gadgets. The boss would be that dungeon/temple's sage, and defeating/sealing them means you have to use that dungeon item and leave it behind (Which is why Link finds that stuff in those dungeons). Before departing that particular dungeon/temple, you'd appoint some big monster thing as the "boss". Meant to guard it from any potential pesky heros.
I would play the crap out of that.
I also really really really want a game where the enemy is some external threat big enough to make Link and Gannon team up, and make Zelda come out of non-combat advisory mode, so that the bearers of the Triforce have to unite. In my head, it's kind of like Kingdom Hearts, but if you could swap control to the other two characters, and they had unique capabilities for navigating dungeons.
Realizing lately that I don't really trust or respect basically any of the moderators here. So, good luck with life, friends! Hit me up on Twitter @DesertLeviathan
I have played and replayed a great many Zelda games. They all have different things to love. Yet I have never even been slightly interested in revisiting WW's insipid, empty, boring world.
Twilight Princess, though, was for the most part an absolute triumph. The yeti house alone is one of the best dungeons Zelda had seen since OOT's Forest Temple, but it also has great puzzle play, brilliant aesthetics, far better dialogue and a great character in Midna, proper meaningful exploration with secrets and caves and fissures to explore, and overall more detail and boldness in just a few levels of its design than the entirety of the flooded world.
Y'all are crazy!
Just because it's different doesn't make it good.
I think there is a school of thought that is essentially protective contrariety. There was a wave of confused disappointment when the trailer first dropped. Some people reacted to that by doubling down on positivity. Then the game released and people had kinda convinced themselves about it or something.
I mean, jesus, the emphasis on how 'expressive' it was like putting a few static 2d emojis on a simple polygon was revolutionary.
Letting my mind wander while I was sailing though, I did have a (maybe?) interesting idea.
How about a Zelda game where you're playing as Gannondorf? I don't know how everything would work, but it would be like setting the game up for Link. Basically you'd have all the dungeon items you need at the start, and you would run your way through them using said items/gadgets. The boss would be that dungeon/temple's sage, and defeating/sealing them means you have to use that dungeon item and leave it behind (Which is why Link finds that stuff in those dungeons). Before departing that particular dungeon/temple, you'd appoint some big monster thing as the "boss". Meant to guard it from any potential pesky heros.
I would play the crap out of that.
I also really really really want a game where the enemy is some external threat big enough to make Link and Gannon team up, and make Zelda come out of non-combat advisory mode, so that the bearers of the Triforce have to unite. In my head, it's kind of like Kingdom Hearts, but if you could swap control to the other two characters, and they had unique capabilities for navigating dungeons.
Or do a three-way brofist and wish the problem away.
I have played and replayed a great many Zelda games. They all have different things to love. Yet I have never even been slightly interested in revisiting WW's insipid, empty, boring world.
Twilight Princess, though, was for the most part an absolute triumph. The yeti house alone is one of the best dungeons Zelda had seen since OOT's Forest Temple, but it also has great puzzle play, brilliant aesthetics, far better dialogue and a great character in Midna, proper meaningful exploration with secrets and caves and fissures to explore, and overall more detail and boldness in just a few levels of its design than the entirety of the flooded world.
Y'all are crazy!
Just because it's different doesn't make it good.
I think there is a school of thought that is essentially protective contrariety. There was a wave of confused disappointment when the trailer first dropped. Some people reacted to that by doubling down on positivity. Then the game released and people had kinda convinced themselves about it or something.
I mean, jesus, the emphasis on how 'expressive' it was like putting a few static 2d emojis on a simple polygon was revolutionary.
It wasn't, guys, it really wasn't.
Alternatively (and far more likely) is that people genuinely like the game for what it is, even if you disagree with that. In fact people seemed to like it so much they did an HD remake which then sold like crazy and had people still rave about how much they loved it.
Again, far more likely than all those people simply being delusional as you seem to suggest.
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Yes, I agree. I still also think I'm partially right.
0
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
edited June 2014
If you want to talk about tedious padding, play the opening several hours of Twilight Princess again. Holy crap does that game take forever to get into gear. The first dungeon is also pretty bad, making it all the worse.
Yup Twilight Princess started slow. Wasting time trying to get into that one guy's house (Fado?) didn't help either. Why would a game tease me with an interact-able door I cannot enter?
I don't think we have to adhere to strict goddamn Aristotelian archetypes here.
Also, I said 'a school of thought'; I didn't say how big it was nor that it was dominant, which is why I can still agree with Delphin's reasonable correction.
Yes, I agree. I still also think I'm partially right.
Not liking a game is fine. It's okay to not like things. But to suggest that people who claim to enjoy the game have just deluded themselves into thinking it's a good game is goosery of the highest caliber.
I mean honestly if you're going to post some smug university-level bullshit response at least have the courtesy to acknowledge the initial post which went into quite considerable and often comparative detail.
Yes, I agree. I still also think I'm partially right.
Not liking a game is fine. It's okay to not like things. But to suggest that people who claim to enjoy the game have just deluded themselves into thinking it's a good game is goosery of the highest caliber.
I said 'a school of thought'; I didn't say how big it was nor that it was dominant, which is why I can still agree with Delphin's reasonable correction.
I mean honestly if you're going to post some smug university-level bullshit response at least have the courtesy to acknowledge the initial post which went into quite considerable and often comparative detail.
D-do you mean me?
I mean I used the word validate but its hardly university level.
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Phew. Was hoping you didn't actually think I meant that you were crazy. I like Wind Waker a lot more than I like Twilight Princess (haven't played TP a single time since finishing it near release). I love how peaceful the game is and the ambiance is incredible. The fast sail and reduced Triforce fetch quest makes WW:HD one of my favorite Zelda games.
Maybe that's part of it; Zelda to me shouldn't be peaceful outside of specific instances (Zora's fountain, fairy fountain... maybe just fountains?) - it should be the pinnacle of adventure and exploration. I like LTTP so much in part because it is legitimately possible to die almost instantly, but also because of the feeling of possibilities and danger.
WW and TP were both dated games with severe limitations. The difference for me was that I found WW redeemingly charming and aware of how simplistic and childish it was, while TP took the exact same simplistic, repetitive design choices and played it completely straight as an 'epic adventure ' that it absolutely was not.
Letting my mind wander while I was sailing though, I did have a (maybe?) interesting idea.
How about a Zelda game where you're playing as Gannondorf? I don't know how everything would work, but it would be like setting the game up for Link. Basically you'd have all the dungeon items you need at the start, and you would run your way through them using said items/gadgets. The boss would be that dungeon/temple's sage, and defeating/sealing them means you have to use that dungeon item and leave it behind (Which is why Link finds that stuff in those dungeons). Before departing that particular dungeon/temple, you'd appoint some big monster thing as the "boss". Meant to guard it from any potential pesky heros.
I would play the crap out of that.
I also really really really want a game where the enemy is some external threat big enough to make Link and Gannon team up, and make Zelda come out of non-combat advisory mode, so that the bearers of the Triforce have to unite. In my head, it's kind of like Kingdom Hearts, but if you could swap control to the other two characters, and they had unique capabilities for navigating dungeons.
Or do a three-way brofist and wish the problem away.
The Triforce is almost never complete for good reason. It's Dragon Balls. You win.
Dumbest moment in Wind Waker. Suddenly Nohansen.
Letting my mind wander while I was sailing though, I did have a (maybe?) interesting idea.
How about a Zelda game where you're playing as Gannondorf? I don't know how everything would work, but it would be like setting the game up for Link. Basically you'd have all the dungeon items you need at the start, and you would run your way through them using said items/gadgets. The boss would be that dungeon/temple's sage, and defeating/sealing them means you have to use that dungeon item and leave it behind (Which is why Link finds that stuff in those dungeons). Before departing that particular dungeon/temple, you'd appoint some big monster thing as the "boss". Meant to guard it from any potential pesky heros.
I would play the crap out of that.
I also really really really want a game where the enemy is some external threat big enough to make Link and Gannon team up, and make Zelda come out of non-combat advisory mode, so that the bearers of the Triforce have to unite. In my head, it's kind of like Kingdom Hearts, but if you could swap control to the other two characters, and they had unique capabilities for navigating dungeons.
Or do a three-way brofist and wish the problem away.
The Triforce is almost never complete for good reason. It's Dragon Balls. You win.
Dumbest moment in Wind Waker. Suddenly Nohansen.
The dude can teleport.
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Pitching in. I agree with the criticism. Wind Waker was a very, very underwhelming game.
Story: Overrated. Gaping plot holes. Decent characterization of Ganondorf but so what? Also relied more heavily on nostalgia than I think people are often willing to acknowledge. Going beneath the ocean was alright.
What plot holes are you referring to? Also, not caring for characterization of Ganondorf isn't the same as "overrated." Not caring ("so what") is apathy, not an opinion of it being bad or good. As for the nostalgia, where exactly is the nostalgia aside from the traditional outfit? If you're gonna accuse Wind Waker of 'relying' on nostalgia I'm guess you accuse every entry in every series of the same thing. What you call "relying on nostalgia" might be "staples" in the series. :P
Combat: grindy, slow and absurdly easy. I replayed LTTP recently and fuck me, I died! I died quite a bit in some cases. And that was a good thing. Ocarina and Majora's Mask both had good, solid combat. Compare darknuts/iron knuckles and like-likes across the games for really poignant examples of how stripped back and simple the swordplay became. And don't get me started on the boss fights. They were cakewalks. And for all of the hubbub around the ending, I beat Ganondorf so quickly I thought it was surely a multi-stage fight: I almost did it by accident. In contrast, look at these ominous motherfuckers. Gyorg? Gyorg! There were entire walkthroughs written up specifically on how to beat this guy! The only even vague challenge posed in WW was Puppet Ganon.
You're calling the combat in Wind Waker slow but praise OoT and MM? Because those two games were clunky as hell in their controls and combat, by nature of being Nintendo's first foray into 3D with the series. Targeting, camera movement, fluidity of item use - all of these things improved in Wind Waker. Dying in a previous game doesn't say anything about the current game you're playing. You died in LttP - so what? So have I. I've died in Wind Waker too. And as for the Ganon fight, remember that the "hubbub" is centered on the build up to it (thematically / story-wise) and its presentation. I won't deny that Wind Waker is an easy game, but y'know, most Zelda games are.
Exploration: will people shut up about the ocean already. Hooray, I get to cast a spell and sail in a straight line - unless I get sidelined by one of the onerous random encounters. Boring. Teeth crushingly boring. How does that even begin to compare to overworld travel in Zeldas past and since (not played through Skyward yet). Furthermore, the relief of finally coming across land is soon tempered by the disappointing smallness of everything. Islands like the chu-chu one in the north are facile distractions with no satisfaction whatsoever to be found in its uninspired busywork.
This is a valid complaint. A problem not limited to just Wind Waker though. We haven't had an open Zelda game since Link's Awakening / LttP / the Oracle games.
Dungeons: similar to combat. Breezed through them. No character, no memorable bits apart from a big jump I dimly recall in the tree dungeon and of course the approach to Dragon Roost island (because of the theme music, mostly). Ached for the absence of enough proper, solid challenges. Arriving at the broken island and knowing, knowing there was supposed to be a proper dungeon there was just so anticlimactic. The Tower of the Gods and the forced return to the first dungeon were further kicks in the teeth. They tried to make stuff bigger thinking it would be better. They were wrong.
No character to the dungeons? They had the most character dungeon to dungeon. Compare that to the original game (and the sequel) where dungeons just changed color. Or OoT where everything was omggrimdark. Wind Waker had the benefit of bright colors, accenting each dungeon's theme (forest, volcano, etc). As for the gameplay of the dungeons, it felt on par with everything else that was and has been since in the 3D games. I'm willing to give them a ho-hum in that quality.
+2
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
I would go so far as to say Wind Waker has the best combat of any 3D Zelda game, possible exception for Skyward Sword depending on how you feel about the motion+ stuff.
As much as I love combat in Wind Waker - and I do, the counter system is great - I'd say Skyward Sword beats its ass in terms of combat that's both good and fun to play.
When the combat worked, I loved it in Skyward Sword. I never quite got it down perfectly, though. When the game expected me to "trick" enemies into blocking in one direction, I always accidentally attacked when I was trying to adjust the direction of my strike. Does that make sense? I always felt like there was some feature I was missing or something.
Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
The Adventure of Link, while not my favourite, holds a special place in my heart.
I remember playing it with my dad, back when I thought he was the best at videogames anybody would ever be.
He used to make me and my sister call him "The King", and whenever he beat a boss we would go crazy and start running through the house yelling "The King, The King!"
Posts
Story: Overrated. Gaping plot holes. Decent characterization of Ganondorf but so what? Also relied more heavily on nostalgia than I think people are often willing to acknowledge. Going beneath the ocean was alright.
Combat: grindy, slow and absurdly easy. I replayed LTTP recently and fuck me, I died! I died quite a bit in some cases. And that was a good thing. Ocarina and Majora's Mask both had good, solid combat. Compare darknuts/iron knuckles and like-likes across the games for really poignant examples of how stripped back and simple the swordplay became. And don't get me started on the boss fights. They were cakewalks. And for all of the hubbub around the ending, I beat Ganondorf so quickly I thought it was surely a multi-stage fight: I almost did it by accident. In contrast, look at these ominous motherfuckers. Gyorg? Gyorg! There were entire walkthroughs written up specifically on how to beat this guy! The only even vague challenge posed in WW was Puppet Ganon.
Exploration: will people shut up about the ocean already. Hooray, I get to cast a spell and sail in a straight line - unless I get sidelined by one of the onerous random encounters. Boring. Teeth crushingly boring. How does that even begin to compare to overworld travel in Zeldas past and since (not played through Skyward yet). Furthermore, the relief of finally coming across land is soon tempered by the disappointing smallness of everything. Islands like the chu-chu one in the north are facile distractions with no satisfaction whatsoever to be found in its uninspired busywork.
Puzzles: what puzzles.
Dungeons: similar to combat. Breezed through them. No character, no memorable bits apart from a big jump I dimly recall in the tree dungeon and of course the approach to Dragon Roost island (because of the theme music, mostly). Ached for the absence of enough proper, solid challenges. Arriving at the broken island and knowing, knowing there was supposed to be a proper dungeon there was just so anticlimactic. The Tower of the Gods and the forced return to the first dungeon were further kicks in the teeth. They tried to make stuff bigger thinking it would be better. They were wrong.
Aesthetics pretty graphics, fluid animation, lovely lighting, good music, awful textures
I have played and replayed a great many Zelda games. They all have different things to love. Yet I have never even been slightly interested in revisiting WW's insipid, empty, boring world.
Twilight Princess, though, was for the most part an absolute triumph. The yeti house alone is one of the best dungeons Zelda had seen since OOT's Forest Temple, but it also has great puzzle play, brilliant aesthetics, far better dialogue and a great character in Midna, proper meaningful exploration with secrets and caves and fissures to explore, and overall more detail and boldness in just a few levels of its design than the entirety of the flooded world.
How about a Zelda game where you're playing as Gannondorf? I don't know how everything would work, but it would be like setting the game up for Link. Basically you'd have all the dungeon items you need at the start, and you would run your way through them using said items/gadgets. The boss would be that dungeon/temple's sage, and defeating/sealing them means you have to use that dungeon item and leave it behind (Which is why Link finds that stuff in those dungeons). Before departing that particular dungeon/temple, you'd appoint some big monster thing as the "boss". Meant to guard it from any potential pesky heros.
Y'all are crazy!
I mean thete are games like this and theyre pretty fun. Id never want to play a zelda game like that though
I would play the crap out of that.
I also really really really want a game where the enemy is some external threat big enough to make Link and Gannon team up, and make Zelda come out of non-combat advisory mode, so that the bearers of the Triforce have to unite. In my head, it's kind of like Kingdom Hearts, but if you could swap control to the other two characters, and they had unique capabilities for navigating dungeons.
Just because it's different doesn't make it good.
I think there is a school of thought that is essentially protective contrariety. There was a wave of confused disappointment when the trailer first dropped. Some people reacted to that by doubling down on positivity. Then the game released and people had kinda convinced themselves about it or something.
I mean, jesus, the emphasis on how 'expressive' it was like putting a few static 2d emojis on a simple polygon was revolutionary.
It wasn't, guys, it really wasn't.
Or do a three-way brofist and wish the problem away.
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Alternatively (and far more likely) is that people genuinely like the game for what it is, even if you disagree with that. In fact people seemed to like it so much they did an HD remake which then sold like crazy and had people still rave about how much they loved it.
Again, far more likely than all those people simply being delusional as you seem to suggest.
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The top also may be the worst Zelda item
I don't think we have to adhere to strict goddamn Aristotelian archetypes here.
Also, I said 'a school of thought'; I didn't say how big it was nor that it was dominant, which is why I can still agree with Delphin's reasonable correction.
Not liking a game is fine. It's okay to not like things. But to suggest that people who claim to enjoy the game have just deluded themselves into thinking it's a good game is goosery of the highest caliber.
A joke. :P
I know. Holding him by his own hair-trigger standards, though.
D-do you mean me?
I mean I used the word validate but its hardly university level.
The top is crucial to one of the best Zelda bosses though so it gets a pass.
Also the Dominion Rod is right there.
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You can sorta tell the top was originally some sort of fast travel system for mid to late game but they couldnt really figure it out
The Triforce is almost never complete for good reason. It's Dragon Balls. You win.
Dumbest moment in Wind Waker. Suddenly Nohansen.
The dude can teleport.
What plot holes are you referring to? Also, not caring for characterization of Ganondorf isn't the same as "overrated." Not caring ("so what") is apathy, not an opinion of it being bad or good. As for the nostalgia, where exactly is the nostalgia aside from the traditional outfit? If you're gonna accuse Wind Waker of 'relying' on nostalgia I'm guess you accuse every entry in every series of the same thing. What you call "relying on nostalgia" might be "staples" in the series. :P
You're calling the combat in Wind Waker slow but praise OoT and MM? Because those two games were clunky as hell in their controls and combat, by nature of being Nintendo's first foray into 3D with the series. Targeting, camera movement, fluidity of item use - all of these things improved in Wind Waker. Dying in a previous game doesn't say anything about the current game you're playing. You died in LttP - so what? So have I. I've died in Wind Waker too. And as for the Ganon fight, remember that the "hubbub" is centered on the build up to it (thematically / story-wise) and its presentation. I won't deny that Wind Waker is an easy game, but y'know, most Zelda games are.
This is a valid complaint. A problem not limited to just Wind Waker though. We haven't had an open Zelda game since Link's Awakening / LttP / the Oracle games.
No Zelda game has had puzzles as a theme. This is a false thing people look for in the series and it puzzles me (hah!) why.
No character to the dungeons? They had the most character dungeon to dungeon. Compare that to the original game (and the sequel) where dungeons just changed color. Or OoT where everything was omggrimdark. Wind Waker had the benefit of bright colors, accenting each dungeon's theme (forest, volcano, etc). As for the gameplay of the dungeons, it felt on par with everything else that was and has been since in the 3D games. I'm willing to give them a ho-hum in that quality.
Skyward Sword's was obviously the best though.
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Maybe Gamecube Twilight Princess.... Wii Twilight Princess was pure waggle and therefore the worst combat of any Zelda game.
I remember playing it with my dad, back when I thought he was the best at videogames anybody would ever be.
He used to make me and my sister call him "The King", and whenever he beat a boss we would go crazy and start running through the house yelling "The King, The King!"
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
The Wii version is hardly pure waggle.
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Also the dungeons are fun as hell.