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Beating people with metal sticks: The [sword combat/fencing] thread.
TOGSolid
Drunk sailorSeattle, WashingtonRegistered User regular
Drunk sailorSeattle, WashingtonRegistered User regular
Greetings one and all and welcome to the melee weapon thread (the title sucks, feel free to suggest a better one). Here you can discuss all forms of melee combat, the history behind the weaponry, where to buy weaponry, and organizations that encourage people to go smack each other with blunt metal sticks (or wood ones if you're one of those Kendo or SCA heavy fighter types). Both Western and Eastern weapon discussion is more than welcome. Over time I hope to fill this OP with useful links for anyone interested in getting a little more hands on with things including places to buy equipment, good books to read, and organizations to join. Feel free to suggest stuff to put in the OP! I'd love for this to become a huge information resource.
Organizations
http://sca.org/ - One of the better known groups, while they're generally known for their heavy fighters that run around in full armor while beating each other with rattan "swords," they also have a very healthy rapier combat division that uses period accurate weaponry. They also are experimenting with a cut and thrust division that allows for a much wider array of replica swords to be used. The downside is that a lot of things get lost in the name of safety and as a result, combat with the SCA can feel limited. The upside is that the SCA is all over the place and not hard to find a group to fight with.
http://hemaalliance.com/ - Focused purely on accurate historical combat, HEMA is where you go when you want to not just swing a sword, but to do it in a period accurate sense. You don't just learn to fight with a rapier, for instance, you learn to do it via the methods of Capo Ferro, Thibault, Agrippa, Giganti, and so on. This is definitely not an organization for people who are mostly interested in making costumes and socializing for a weekend (that's what the SCA is for).
http://www.fencing.net/ - Governed by the Fédération Internationale d'Escrime (FIE), sport fencing has evolved over hundreds of years and is one of the most popular and well known ways to go beat someone with a metal stick. Comprised of three different styles, Foil, Épée, and Saber (all the cool kids fight Épée), there are style options here for everyone and chances are there's a club near you. Check with your local rec center, college/uni, and even on Facebook. It's a surprisingly cheap sport to get into and a great workout!
http://www.jomsvikings.com/ I actually don't know much about these guys. The Viking group I fought with was 100% local but it's through them I heard of the Jomsvikings. They are a fairly large combat and lifestyle reenactment group that travels to a lot of international events and they are building their own god damn fortress, so, yanno, there's that.
Books
Note: Many of these manuals contain other things beyond just the primary weapon. The German longsword books contain entire sections on wrestling, for instance, while some of the rapier books also go into buckler usage, main gauche usage, and so on. Some of these are really great to learn from while others, like the Codex Wallerstein, are more interesting from a historical perspective.
Fencing
On Fencing by Aldo Nadi.
Rapier
The Duelist's Companion
Nicoletto Giganti - The School of the Sword
The 'Lost' Second Book of Nicoletto Giganti
Gerard Thibault - Academy of the Sword
Camilo Agrippa - Fencing: A Renaissance Treatise
Capo Ferro's 'Gran Simulacro'
Longsword (aka Hand and a Half Sword)
Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Master Liechtenauer's Verse
Codex Wallerstein
The Swordsman's Companion
Websites
http://wiktenauer.com/ - The free library of Historical European Martial Arts books and manuscripts
Stores! Spend all the money!
http://casiberia.com/ - Offers a wide array of swords and equipment for all manner of WMA styles.
https://www.viking-shield.com/ - Primarily meant for Viking reenactment.
http://www.kultofathena.com/ - A reseller with a huge selection of inventory, including decorative replicas, battle ready sharpened swords, and reenactment grade weapons.
http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/ - Focuses primarily on WMA/SCA weapons and equipment.
http://zenwarriorarmory.com/ - Provides affordable SCA rapiers and equipment.
http://www.triplette.com/ - Affordable in house made fencing equipment.
http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/ - Offers a huge array of fencing gear and has some great deals on starter packages.
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So does anyone have any HEMA experience? I'm looking at moving down south at some point and would be interested in checking them out (because there's no such thing as too many swords).
I fenced my first two years of college, but then I ended up stopping as college got harder. I picked it up again senior year, and then I started fencing epee competitively last fall at the start of my 5th year.
And now the next few weeks of my life are going to be a training montage as I prepare for the fencing summer nationals,
Hell, even the few old training schools that we have half decent records from have pretty grisly student attrition rates.
Well, at least as period accurate as you can be without damn near killing the other combatant. I can't think of a more succinct term for actually learning according to a specific historical style (i.e. Agrippa) as opposed to just generally learning to stick the pointy end in the other person.
Being able to get to these sort of events without getting ripped off by Alaska Air is another reason I wanna move down south. My fencing experience is limited to the group that was in Ketchikan and the one here in Juneau. The teacher we have here has a ton of experience but there are only a couple others here with enough experience to really force me to buckle down. I really want to get out into the world to get my ass properly kicked so I can get better (mostly at epee).
Evidence:
Love the sport, it can really get you fit in no time, but as soon as I get the chance I''d love to get a cool rapier replica and parrying dagger and learn the shit our of that kind of combat.
one time a girlfriend bought me a kendo class but it was so horrible and filled with such embarrassing people that i couldn't bring myself to go more than a couple times. one the dudes had his blonde hair spiked up and wore colored swim goggles on his forehead as a fashion accessory, i guess like his favorite animes.
this thread should be relevant to @Inquisitor 's interests tho.
The first thing every new person apparently needs to learn is to attack the person, not the sword. That and turn sideways.
I'd say the first thing every new person needs to learn is proper stance because committing that to muscle memory probably takes the longest out of anything.
You'd be surprised. Check online or in community activity flyers and what not. Also, it's not unheard of for there to be a few sword junkies floating around so that a group can get fired up, it just takes someone to get the word out there.
In other news, I'm already looking at purchasing a third rapier.
I think I have a problem.
I did SCA heavy rapier fencing for a couple of years, mostly under some people in my area that went to a local HEMA school on the weekends, and that was a lot of fun.
I am currently living in Japan and did kendo for a year, and that was a lot of fun (though quite divorced from actual sword fighting) but unfortunately I had to stop because, unsurprisingly, it turns out that a sport involving hard wooden floors and stomping in bare feet is a bad match for being flat footed, who would have known?!
I am looking into checking out HEMA stuff in my area when I move back to America this summer, and depending on how that looks I might end up back in the SCA or not, unsure.
A channel I really like watching when I have a few minutes to kill is scholagladiatora https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
He has a lot of fun videos up about various topics.
I really want to pick up the book he keeps mentioning, Swordsmen of the British Empire.
Anyway, looking forward to this thread!
Protip #2: learn to fight off handed.
Evidence:
Protip #4: Katanas are the most bestest weapon ever, even better than guns. Except for chainsaws.
I'm "kupiyupaekio" on Discord.
I'll take an 1845 British infantry sabre, with an 1895 hilt, thank you very much.
In other thoughts, sabers are for savages and rapiers are for geese. Discuss.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
It's actually not a bad thing to learn to do. Being able to fight off-hand lets you see how the mechanics work for yourself because lefties can do some dirty shit due to the angles they get to work out.
Katana chainsaw, obviously.
Also I find your lack of associated youtube video disturbing:
Because one thousand fold mythical Japanese super steel anime yo. Also, it doesn't help that tv shows made to supposedly tell the history of the katana and swords in general end up just adding to the derp rather than helping to bring things back down to level which then causes more people to believe the myths.
Ever point out to someone that Japanese iron is pretty shitty and that's why katanas get made the way they do? The reaction is always awesome.
EDIT: Aaaand I now have a 42" (including the ricasso) rapier on the way. Good thing I have a closet dedicated to being my armory to keep all this stuff in. >_>
Anyways as fun as it would be to blame the katana on anime and man children, and a good bit of the blame does lie there, it's not entirely correct. Modern post WW2 Japan is really good at making all sorts of things, they're a giant. Made in Japan is a label that went from "means low quality shit created by idiots" to "top of the line quality, right up there with the Germans those Japanese" really quickly. See cars and consumer electronics. There are entire generations of people who've had "made in Japan" cost a premium their entire lives, where the Japanese have always in the best. So they just assume it was always thus. Never mind that when we first started dealing with them they were making swords that shattered on impact from pig iron, living in paper houses that constantly turned into a mess, and drinking from pottery tea cups that fell apart if you left tea in them for too long. Sure now they are very modern and Tokyo is a super city... when we first ran into them we laughed at them as a bunch of country bumpkin ass backwards idiots.
Now everyone thinks if someone does build a giant city destroying robot it will be the Japanese, not that long ago they were convinced the trains we helped them build were sorcery, times change.
Did a lot of foil, didn't really get attached to it, I loved my epee, especially because with the whole body as a target and no strike priority you have a lot of room to be a pragmatic dirty bastard, which is my preferred combat style. There was an old guy in our club that taught me all there is to know about how to nick your opponent's wrist and how to counter it. Awesome.
And that video in The Princess Bride was what actually got me interested in fencing in the first place. It's quite embarrassing because I happen to come from Spain. My father is alive and well, though.
Yeah, I reaaaally don't dig on Foil. I practice it just for fundamentals work but Epee will always be the king of fencing for me. Saber is pretty fun despite the right of way rules but I only really goof around in it, I don't study it too intently almost entirely because of the aformentioned right of way rules. They just suck so much of the fun out of the fight, especially when you get to the point where you're fighting people that like to abuse the right of way rules by intentionally falling on their opponent's sword to get a touch just because the suicide hit won't count due to lolrightofway.
Yeah there is that. I don't think too many people realize that Japan was still a medieval, feudal society when they got forcibly exposed to the rest of the modernized world in the mid-late 1800s. I usually never hear people bring up Japan's social history as part of the myths and false information routinely spread about the katana though. It's usually restricted to all the usual crap like how they're made from secret super steel that makes them into borderline lightsabers and that the samurai were the greatest swordsmen ever who could beat anyone every time and blah blah blah.
There was also a club for ... period-style gatherings, and it ended up as such:
Most of the collegiate non-varsity clubs and even the less competitive teams were like this too. We focused 99% on the sport, and beyond the first day of "what is fencing?" its origins were not really in our mind.
I will say that fencing is a terrible spectator sport. The sheer speed of it is astounding.
I began with foil and got frustrated with the flick in the early 2000s. I switched to epee and they changed the rules in foil to eliminate the flick, but by that time I already had seen much more success in epee that I didn't want to go back. The meta-game of foil changes annually at the top level, and rarely for the better.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
The West has a long and not so proud tradition of fetishizing and mystifying the East. Orientalism is very much a thing. The history of "Oriental studies" in general is not a very great one. And the residual from a lot of that stuff caries forward to this very days. Lord knows you can still hear people calling Japan the "mysterious east" from time to time for no real reason at all.
Your grasp of the history of Japan lacks some scope. Japan was not always xenophobic (well, not particularly more than anyone else was in the past) and was not always isolationist. For example the Kofun period saw many Chinese and Korean immigrants come to Japan. And in the Asuka period Japan imported many cultural and religious ideas from China such as Confucianism and Buddhism.
Even during the policy of Sakoku during the Edo period, Japan's policy of isolation against the West, they still acquired western knowledge under the Rangaku system. It was just very controlled. But everything was very controlled during the Edo period.
And well, in other cases your history is just wrong. Europe so loved Japanese pottery from Arita, especially the Kakiemon style of it, that they imported large amounts of it and started imitating it and making it back home.
Greatest swords smiths evar, is not correct, but you know, you are giving such a stance a pretty good run for its money on being equally wrong with your "Japan could not make functional cups" nonsense as well. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I dunno man, if I shove the point of a katana into your stomach as hard as I can, I'm pretty sure you're going to have a bad day.
Wrong in two different ways!
"idiotic"? Folding the steel to improve its crystalline structure and vastly improve its strength is idiotic? And differentially heat treating it to give it both a very hard cutting edge and a very tough spine is idiotic? Also, please explain how curving the blade during forging is idiotic? The curved cutting edge helps the sword cut better, don'tcha know? Learn a little basic metallurgy before you open your maw and make yourself look silly.
Though mostly they had to do those things to make up for the shit quality of the metal available. Many European swords were higher quality. As were many Middle-Eastern swords.
I have always wondered about Damascus steel. See if its made with Wootz steel, then that would have some silicon in it. Silicon is a base element so it should not break down during forging. And it is very similar to carbon.
Dunno Chevalier D'Eon or Lichtenauer were pretty good.
I don't believe that a title like "greatest swordsman who ever lived" is even a sensible thing to try and claim someone to be. With what kind of sword? Katanas? Rapiers? Estocs? Against what kind of opponents? Unarmored, in full plate? In what kind of environment? Duels? Battlefields? How does one even be able to construct an effective measure or rubric to determine something as abstract as "greatest swordsman who ever lived" ? It is basically a nonsensical title.
There is so much myth, legend, misinformation, missing information etc around Musashi anyway that it is hard to say too much definitive about the guy anyway.
All of that is true. But you can definitively say that the guy was very damn good.
But really there's no more myth or legend about Miyamoto than there is about Liechtenauer.
I've actually been practicing saber since it seems to be improving my endurance and footwork. And to be fair, Epee still lets you impale yourself because of the tighter lock out periods and double touches.
Saber is way too sprinty for me. My legs were dead after a few touches.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
Actually there is. Apparently the ladies loved Lichtenauer's "Long Sword" technique.
Edit: Just joking. Of course. On the other hand, the Chevalier D'Eon did beat the Chevalier St. George at the age of 58. And the Chevalier St. George was considered one of the best young fencers in all of Europe. And fencing is a bit of a young man's game. Skill is the most important. But a good younger fellow will beat a good older older fellow. Speed.
So to beat that speed, you have to be better. And he was.
Silicon is similar to carbon in that they are both elements, yes. As to the metallurgical effect they have on alloys of steel? No.
I don't know much at all about the technical details of swordfighting, and I'm definitely not some weaboo katana freak, but is it really that swords from other regions were definitely of a higher quality, or that they are better suited to the style of swordfighting from their area? European swords are tempered to be springier and more flexible than a katana for example, because there is much less blocking with the sword, and more parrying. Try to use a rapier to block the swing of a dude with a 7 ft long hardwood bo staff, and you'll likely break your rapier.
Silicon is also similar to carbon in that they are both in the same periodic family. Therefore its not just that they are both elements. They share a similar number of open slots for valence bonding, etc. IIRC.
And you do have a point in that swords are forged to suit the style of swordplay. They are also forged to defeat the type of armor they have to go up against.
But as the cracked article says and the national geographic article confirms some swords are better than others. Of course the same article then says that some experts disagree. Because that is the scientific community for you.
Still if true, carbon nanotubes. YEEE!!!
So you'd take a katana over a Turkish or European cavalry saber, well good for you then nice to know.
That said, civilians didn't carry staffs in Europe, because civilians were allowed to own swords; heck some countries required it. Thus, you never saw this staff vs sword thing, as both parties would just duel it out with swords in Europe.
You only see this katana vs staff thing in Japan, because military weapons were restricted to the samurai class in Japan, punishable by death.