[Unions] Time to get Fired...up?

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  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    This is not going to become the new Primaries thread, so we're clear.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Kickstarter United is official. The company's workers voted to start a union.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Good for them, the tech sector is in desperate, desperate need of unionization across the board.

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    Delightful! More unionization anywhere is good, but a foothold in tech would be excellent. There's a labor force with a lot of bargaining power that's tricked itself into thinking it already has the best possible deal.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

    Social Media website run by the kind of turd-huffing tech bros you'd see parodied on Silicon Valley. They view unions like we view The Klan.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

    Social Media website run by the kind of turd-huffing tech bros you'd see parodied on Silicon Valley. They view unions like we view The Klan.

    You have to understand, every single one of them is going to be a billionaire once their company goes public

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

    Social Media website run by the kind of turd-huffing tech bros you'd see parodied on Silicon Valley. They view unions like we view The Klan.

    More specifically, it's a news aggregator/forum run by a major VC firm, Y Combinator. Which colors its view heavily. It also doesn't help that it's lightly moderated, with all the stupid that comes with that.

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  • AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

    Social Media website run by the kind of turd-huffing tech bros you'd see parodied on Silicon Valley. They view unions like we view The Klan.

    My absolute favourite argument I saw on there, was that unions are bad for the group of people most deserving of high salaries - those with good negotiation skills.

    Obviously this cannot stand.

    In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    edited February 20
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

    Social Media website run by the kind of turd-huffing tech bros you'd see parodied on Silicon Valley. They view unions like we view The Klan.

    My absolute favourite argument I saw on there, was that unions are bad for the group of people most deserving of high salaries - those with good negotiation skills.

    Obviously this cannot stand.

    Also, how many people these days are even in positions where negotiations are even a thing? Whole lot of America would have this conversation -

    Employee: I want more money.

    Employer: Then go find another job. Also, you're fired.

    Phillishere on
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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Yeah I'm approaching 40 and have worked in a few different fields (healthcare, travel, banking) and the idea that I can just go to my boss and be like "Hey so I've been exceeding performance metrics on the the reg to the point where you have me coaching fellow employees instead of doing the job that I'm supposed to be doing/am now assisting in the training of new hires seems like it should warrant a pay increase of some kind" being a conversation that would end in an actual pay increase rather than being fired in a few months "for cause" has frankly never not been laughable to me.

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  • MadpoetMadpoet Registered User regular
    Gods the software industry is blessed. In my last negotiation I got $1/hr over what I was asking because the boss wanted to make it a round number.

  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    Madpoet wrote: »
    Gods the software industry is blessed. In my last negotiation I got $1/hr over what I was asking because the boss wanted to make it a round number.

    I literally just got a raise (I'm salary) just so it would make my weekly checks an even number. It ended up being like 8 dollars per week.

    Madpoet
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Yeah I'm approaching 40 and have worked in a few different fields (healthcare, travel, banking) and the idea that I can just go to my boss and be like "Hey so I've been exceeding performance metrics on the the reg to the point where you have me coaching fellow employees instead of doing the job that I'm supposed to be doing/am now assisting in the training of new hires seems like it should warrant a pay increase of some kind" being a conversation that would end in an actual pay increase rather than being fired in a few months "for cause" has frankly never not been laughable to me.

    The way you get a raise these days is to get hired at a different workplace.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Yeah I'm approaching 40 and have worked in a few different fields (healthcare, travel, banking) and the idea that I can just go to my boss and be like "Hey so I've been exceeding performance metrics on the the reg to the point where you have me coaching fellow employees instead of doing the job that I'm supposed to be doing/am now assisting in the training of new hires seems like it should warrant a pay increase of some kind" being a conversation that would end in an actual pay increase rather than being fired in a few months "for cause" has frankly never not been laughable to me.

    Large company here. 100% of the out-of-cycle cases are top-down, insofar as I'm aware, aside from "I'm leaving" and management was empowered to make a counter-offer. Now, my manager and I have a good relationship and he's always been transparent about the process of how things work, so I'm comfortable "talking shop" with him so to speak. But that's very obviously a case-by-case basis.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited February 21
    Today in Fuck Cenk Uygur:

    Today, TheYoungTurks refused voluntary recognition of the TYT Union. This is a disappointing decision from an organization that presents itself as progressive. Join us in telling TheYoungTurks to respect their so-called principles and respect their workers!
    The IATSE is a union representing the backstage crew positions in stage and theater.

    Cenk should end his campaign to become a Representative.

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  • TimFijiTimFiji Registered User regular
    This is where I'm at. Oberlin College is planing on laying off workers and replacing with contractors.

    I am friends with one of the union officers and they definitely feel ambushed. Not really what I expected from a rather left leaning place. Normally I'm pretty proud to be associated with it!

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited February 21
    Contractors is a nice way of getting back to the time honored tradition of standing on the dockyard begging to get to work for a day. It blows me away how happily we are moving back to that system.

    Get hurt? Get fired.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

    Social Media website run by the kind of turd-huffing tech bros you'd see parodied on Silicon Valley. They view unions like we view The Klan.

    My absolute favourite argument I saw on there, was that unions are bad for the group of people most deserving of high salaries - those with good negotiation skills.

    Obviously this cannot stand.

    Also, how many people these days are even in positions where negotiations are even a thing? Whole lot of America would have this conversation -

    Employee: I want more money.

    Employer: Then go find another job. Also, you're fired.

    Probably most skilled labor? In general AFAIK unemployment is still really low and lots of industries and professions have big shortages of qualified applicants.

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  • CoinageCoinage The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Apparently Hacker News is in meltdown over this, as it more or less upends their ideological viewpoint.

    Can you expand on this a little?

    Social Media website run by the kind of turd-huffing tech bros you'd see parodied on Silicon Valley. They view unions like we view The Klan.

    My absolute favourite argument I saw on there, was that unions are bad for the group of people most deserving of high salaries - those with good negotiation skills.

    Obviously this cannot stand.

    Also, how many people these days are even in positions where negotiations are even a thing? Whole lot of America would have this conversation -

    Employee: I want more money.

    Employer: Then go find another job. Also, you're fired.

    Probably most skilled labor? In general AFAIK unemployment is still really low and lots of industries and professions have big shortages of qualified applicants.
    The shortage is because one of the qualifications is accepting $10/hr.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Yeah I always roll my eyes hard when anyone mentions a "shortage" in this or that industry. There's no shortage, the people in control of those industries are simply unwilling to pay what the expertise is worth and unwilling to spend to train new people (because they know those people will jump ship to better pay as soon as they can, so it goes back to the pay problem again).

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Yeah I always roll my eyes hard when anyone mentions a "shortage" in this or that industry. There's no shortage, the people in control of those industries are simply unwilling to pay what the expertise is worth and unwilling to spend to train new people (because they know those people will jump ship to better pay as soon as they can, so it goes back to the pay problem again).

    Yup. "Supply and demand" capitalists bemoaning increasing for demands (wages) when supply (positions) runs low, always makes me laugh.

    "Ohh, but the market won't allow me to increase wages and be profitable!". Yeah. That's the free market in action. Sometimes businesses fail.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind some government fudging. But the dipshits who whine about minimum wages and worker protections as being nanny state, while wanting subsidies and bailouts? Yeah. They can go fuck themselves.

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    It's also a collective action problem. Training is expensive, so companies that don't offer training can afford to pay more. If you offer training, your employees leave for better pay as soon as they can (or so the argument goes; I have no idea how true that actually is). Ergo, no one wants to offer training. But that means no one feels pressured to offer more money, either.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    "Ohh, but the market won't allow me to increase wages and be profitable!". Yeah. That's the free market in action. Sometimes businesses fail.

    And a lot of the time the claim just isn't true anyway, but plenty of employers love just handing down those kinds of assertions as though The Market consists of immutable laws of nature like "even a slight raise in wages will destroy the entire economy."

    I mean, industries scream about how doomed they are over ten-cent minimum wage hikes, despite the fact that no business that's even vaguely afloat is going to be destroyed over something like that.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    Why is that all you get? This really sounds like you bringing your own biases in here, to be honest.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    This seems unnecessarily motivated out of spite.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited 2:32AM
    Today in Fuck Cenk Uygur:

    Today, TheYoungTurks refused voluntary recognition of the TYT Union. This is a disappointing decision from an organization that presents itself as progressive. Join us in telling TheYoungTurks to respect their so-called principles and respect their workers!
    The IATSE is a union representing the backstage crew positions in stage and theater.

    Cenk should end his campaign to become a Representative.

    LOL enjoy not having camera operators and lighting technicians! IATSE don't fuck around, as Cenk is about to find out.

    EDIT: I'm in IATSE, for the record. If an employer decided they were going to try to fuck us during negotiations or during an election drive, the employer would soon find themselves with a workplace where very little actual work gets done. Don't mess with your tech staff, unless you think the scabs you try to get to replace us will know how to rewire the lights in the studio after we disable them on the way out the door!

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    Why is that all you get? This really sounds like you bringing your own biases in here, to be honest.

    The OPEIU has 125,000 members and the full legal force that their dues power. Kickstarter management cannot come close to matching that - they're going to be on the weak end of every conflict with their employees. In an adversarial environment like that, it makes no sense to spend more on staff than you absolutely have to - the employees are going to get everything they want in negotiations already. Why try on your own, why give something away for free at this point? Just shut it all down and let them put it on the negotiating table if they still want it.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    This seems unnecessarily motivated out of spite.

    So did the unionization, if I remember this argument from when it first started. People there are already well compensated with a bunch of workplace perks. But leaving that argument aside, it's a new situation now. Nevermind spite - the union's going to want things to be a certain way, and they should have to ask for that rather than just being handed it as a precondition.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    Why is that all you get? This really sounds like you bringing your own biases in here, to be honest.

    The OPEIU has 125,000 members and the full legal force that their dues power. Kickstarter management cannot come close to matching that - they're going to be on the weak end of every conflict with their employees. In an adversarial environment like that, it makes no sense to spend more on staff than you absolutely have to - the employees are going to get everything they want in negotiations already. Why try on your own, why give something away for free at this point? Just shut it all down and let them put it on the negotiating table if they still want it.

    OPEIU International is not the Kickstarter Local. Individual chapters often have to contend on their own with the employers in their jurisdiction, on their own. If the local doesn't have a lot of money or pull with the International, they may not be getting all the support of the 125,000 dues paying members you seem to think are standing ominously in the background. Kickstarter's incentive to be on good terms with the bargaining unit, small though they may be, is that the work doesn't get done without them. It works the same in my industry, too: the bosses will on occasion do nice things for the workers without explicitly being contractually obligated to do so, and vice versa, because acrimony across the table benefits no one in a contract negotiation.

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  • painfulPleasancepainfulPleasance Registered User regular
    Nobody's going to bargain for all of the skinner box MBA and corporate loyalty shit. None of that was free, none of it was given out of compassion.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited 2:45AM
    spool32 wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    This seems unnecessarily motivated out of spite.

    So did the unionization, if I remember this argument from when it first started. People there are already well compensated with a bunch of workplace perks. But leaving that argument aside, it's a new situation now. Nevermind spite - the union's going to want things to be a certain way, and they should have to ask for that rather than just being handed it as a precondition.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/kickstarter-union-employees-tech-workers-2020-2
    The historic 46-37 vote in favor of unionizing comes after a contentious process, which involved the firing of two Kickstarter employees who were leading the efforts. The employees then filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board, which has yet to resolve, according to Vice.
    employees said arose from Chen's heavy-handed management style as well as internal disagreement over a decision to remove a project from the site after right-wing news site Breitbart claimed the project violated the Kickstarter terms of service, according to Slate.

    so,,,,

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    Why is that all you get? This really sounds like you bringing your own biases in here, to be honest.

    The OPEIU has 125,000 members and the full legal force that their dues power. Kickstarter management cannot come close to matching that - they're going to be on the weak end of every conflict with their employees. In an adversarial environment like that, it makes no sense to spend more on staff than you absolutely have to - the employees are going to get everything they want in negotiations already. Why try on your own, why give something away for free at this point? Just shut it all down and let them put it on the negotiating table if they still want it.

    Huh.

    If you swap the roles here, this is the argument for unions almost word for word :D

    So if this plays out as it does now, and if the power imbalance is really as you say it is, then I expect Kickstarter employees to be able to get everything they want and more! After all, like you said, employees will get everything they want already. All that free stuff? Back on the table! Plus everything else they want, as you said!

    I may be being slightly sarcastic :P

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Heaven forfend a company ever be on the weaker side of the negotiating table. I can only imagine how horrible that would be. Like virtually everyone else is all the time.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    edited 4:16AM
    I have to admit, I'm pretty amazed to hear that local chapters need to pay dues to a national union organization that won't actually come help them.

    I honestly just assumed that the whole point of joining with the national group was the extra power they bring to the table. If that isn't even a thing.... what are they for.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    Why is that all you get? This really sounds like you bringing your own biases in here, to be honest.

    The OPEIU has 125,000 members and the full legal force that their dues power. Kickstarter management cannot come close to matching that - they're going to be on the weak end of every conflict with their employees. In an adversarial environment like that, it makes no sense to spend more on staff than you absolutely have to - the employees are going to get everything they want in negotiations already. Why try on your own, why give something away for free at this point? Just shut it all down and let them put it on the negotiating table if they still want it.

    Huh.

    If you swap the roles here, this is the argument for unions almost word for word :D

    So if this plays out as it does now, and if the power imbalance is really as you say it is, then I expect Kickstarter employees to be able to get everything they want and more! After all, like you said, employees will get everything they want already. All that free stuff? Back on the table! Plus everything else they want, as you said!

    Why shouldn't they have to negotiate for everything? Employees just reset the board in terms of relationship with the management. Assuming that nothing will change seems crazy.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    edited 4:19AM
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Fully expect kickstarter to stop doing any employee perks that aren't in their contract, and that's as it should be. You want to unionize, you get what the union negotiates and nothing more. Hopefully management can make it work, because Kickstarter is cool and enables innovation in ways unavailable in the past. It'd be a shame to see it fall apart.

    Why is that all you get? This really sounds like you bringing your own biases in here, to be honest.

    The OPEIU has 125,000 members and the full legal force that their dues power. Kickstarter management cannot come close to matching that - they're going to be on the weak end of every conflict with their employees. In an adversarial environment like that, it makes no sense to spend more on staff than you absolutely have to - the employees are going to get everything they want in negotiations already. Why try on your own, why give something away for free at this point? Just shut it all down and let them put it on the negotiating table if they still want it.

    OPEIU International is not the Kickstarter Local. Individual chapters often have to contend on their own with the employers in their jurisdiction, on their own. If the local doesn't have a lot of money or pull with the International, they may not be getting all the support of the 125,000 dues paying members you seem to think are standing ominously in the background. Kickstarter's incentive to be on good terms with the bargaining unit, small though they may be, is that the work doesn't get done without them. It works the same in my industry, too: the bosses will on occasion do nice things for the workers without explicitly being contractually obligated to do so, and vice versa, because acrimony across the table benefits no one in a contract negotiation.

    Unionizing is kind of a fundamental statement of dissatisfaction, isn't it? Acrimony is inherent to the desire for a union in the first place. It's a statement of distrust in management, which is pretty fair in lots of situations tbh, but "everything here is great, let's form a union!" feels like it's not a thing. It seems like the best you can hope for is an armed standoff. I guess if you weren't armed before that probably feels like a relief but it's certainly not going to de-escalate or lead to less acrimony.

    spool32 at
  • The Cow KingThe Cow King scuz me ur under dog arrest Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    I have to admit, I'm pretty amazed to hear that local chapters need to pay dues to a national union organization that won't actually come help them.

    I honestly just assumed that the whole point of join ing with the national group was the extra power they bring to the table. If that isn't even a thing.... what are they for.

    Having a national union call in the lads even if they don't always it uh brings out solidarity like when the United steel workes and teamsters told GM to go fuck themselves when UWA was on strike it's a amplification of labour's power

    Union dues wouldn't be such a contentious point if employers paid actual wages, and I'll grant you not all unions are perfect unifor was the worst decision Canadian gm workers ever made (shoulda stayed United with the union in the states) but having a union was uh a million times better when gm fucked off out of it's contract twice and left people without jobs to save the bottom line. Good luck taking gm to court on breech of contract as a lineworker.

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