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[Wildstar] J. Gaffney steps down as Carbine President

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    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Is everyone just moving to Pergo or giving up on the game?

    PSN SeGaTai
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    BeezelBeezel There was no agreement little morsel..Registered User regular
    I'm done after my sub is up this month. I don't know what everyone else is planning on doing. It's also probably the last time I go in with PA for an mmo. I think I'm just done with mmos altogether after this.

    PSN: Waybackkidd
    "...only mights and maybes."
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    TayrunTayrun Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Is everyone just moving to Pergo or giving up on the game?

    Just throwing this out there as an option:

    Reroll Exile.

    I know, I know, losing progress and the grind again and all that, fair enough. But we're really active, in a great guild, just finished the world boss stage of attunement today, will be in GA within a week.

    If you don't want to pay for a server transfer, just come join us, we're real friendly and there's many PAers in the guild!

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    QanamilQanamil x Registered User regular
    Sad agreement, but I'm with you @beezel. I watching to see what improves, but at the same time I don't have high hopes.

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    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    One week it's the Exile guild that's falling apart, the next it's the Dominion one... oh, the MMO rollercoaster.

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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Well Beez, I was gonna talk to you before I bothered to leave, but if you are done, I guess we should put things out of their misery instead of just hold on via life support. (btw I think thats me on the left in that video)

    I still plan on playing (main interest right now is rerolling a medic on Pergo for a PVP experience), but my interest is always directly tied to those I play with. Without that, it will prolly fade.

    Just an FYI, there is nothing wrong with PA guilds, there is nothing wrong with mmos. Its just that

    - We split the playerbase off the bat. We thought this was OK because we had 200 people interestedat launch. This was false mostly because of...

    - The game itself brought in too many people off the bat, and many of the wrong kind of people. No, not bad people. People who really were never going to like this game past the first week (or less, depending on how fast they decided to blast through levels). It is in this day in age as much a niche game as EVE. Its just not made for 90% of the people who would look at an MMO. And also, that leads to the third point...

    - Many people are beyond MMOs in their life at this point. Anyone who played GW2 before this (and kept at it) might have been fooled because that is practically not even an MMO. Its a game with mmo structure sure, but it doesn't play like one. Some people realize this and choose to hold on because they want to love MMOs again. Some are in denial. All of them that came to WS hoping it would do what GW2 was supposed to do were horribly, horribly wrong. WS's entire premise was the complete opposite of what someone who is pretty much over MMOs would be into. WS is a very, very good mmo (bugs and shit notwithstanding), but at its core it is going to require a LOT from you if you want to enjoy its best parts. The rest? While good, most people would get that elsewhere and not have to pay $15 a month or force themselves to earn tons of money in game.

    I think if we had made entirely one guild, we might have been able to hold on. It looks like a solid 5 man formed out of each side when it moved to another guild. Or maybe not. I know myself I was never going to be able to do endgame in a serious fashion. I still don't mind this either. I enjoy the 1-2 hours I get on desperately trying to do all the things I think about needing to get done all day at work then maybe doing 25% of them. However, if I cannot keep up with earning CREDD (I am able to make enough, but I keep wanting to spend it) then I might be gone too. Cause our budget was just put together for me to go to school and it has quite literally NO wiggle room without me paying for this game.

    And for the record, our guild has been pretty much silent sans 5 or so people pushing themselves to all be on at the same time to do dungeons.

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    ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    None of us server transferred. We joined a guild called Lethal Intent that's sort of on the cusp of doing Genetic Archives. We just wanted to play with other people who log in. They may still be taking more. Noiz will probably know more.

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    surettesurette kill the switch Boston, MARegistered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Is everyone just moving to Pergo or giving up on the game?
    A ton of the original PA exiles still going strong in Revive on Stormtalon. I'm currently 3/4 dungeons, and as Kragor just said he's 4/4 dungeons. Making great progress.

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    Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    Just hit 30 the other day, so I might actually be able to go dungeoning with people by the time I get back to a stable internet.

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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    I'd just like to say, this is another reason why I tend to be against opposing factions in MMOs for no reason other than "We're lazy storywriters and need a player antagonist."

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
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    HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    Kai_San wrote: »
    - The game itself brought in too many people off the bat, and many of the wrong kind of people. No, not bad people. People who really were never going to like this game past the first week (or less, depending on how fast they decided to blast through levels). It is in this day in age as much a niche game as EVE. Its just not made for 90% of the people who would look at an MMO.
    This is absolutely true and really further solidifies the point many of us were making forever ago when we discovered that the stated objective for this game is "hardcore experiences for hardcore players hardcore hardcore". There's absolutely nothing wrong with catering to those types of players, but I think it's pretty clear from the given evidence that those people are even more of an extreme minority than they were in the heyday of MMOs six or eight years ago. As such, it's just not a wise move to hedge your entire bet on that group when you're launching a brand-new MMO with an as-yet unestablished intellectual property.

    For what it's worth, I'm one of those players who were absolutely wrong for the game, or at least completely outside their core demographic. I stated from the beginning that I'd get a good few months out of it by enjoying the leveling content and playing barbie dream house with the Housing stuff, both of which I've done and enjoyed very much. But even so, that just won't sustain any significant group of people and I'm about to step out for a while myself. I'm honestly not sure how much of a chance this game has, if those financial reports are true this thing might not be long for this world, but if it does flourish (and for the record I hope it does, it really is a solid game mechanically and artistically) they may need to re-evaluate their stated design objective if they want anything approaching financial success.

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    SaldonasSaldonas See you space cowboy...Registered User regular
    I'm giving the game another month but I think my wife and I are gonna hop back in to WoW after this. It'll be like a totally different game with all the altered early level content. We'll probably roll up some new character on Wyrmrest Accord, Horde side, where we have a couple other friends playing already.

    Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/carthuun
    Switch: SW-1493-0062-4053
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    NoizlanifNoizlanif MMO-Whore Registered User regular
    For anyone sticking around on the Dominion side however, A majority of folks have moved to a guild named Lethal Intent, We have the ability to invite anyone from our guild prior. So Send Rhell, Aresia, or Incultus a message, and well get you setup.

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    DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Kai_San wrote: »
    - The game itself brought in too many people off the bat, and many of the wrong kind of people. No, not bad people. People who really were never going to like this game past the first week (or less, depending on how fast they decided to blast through levels). It is in this day in age as much a niche game as EVE. Its just not made for 90% of the people who would look at an MMO.
    This is absolutely true and really further solidifies the point many of us were making forever ago when we discovered that the stated objective for this game is "hardcore experiences for hardcore players hardcore hardcore". There's absolutely nothing wrong with catering to those types of players, but I think it's pretty clear from the given evidence that those people are even more of an extreme minority than they were in the heyday of MMOs six or eight years ago. As such, it's just not a wise move to hedge your entire bet on that group when you're launching a brand-new MMO with an as-yet unestablished intellectual property.

    For what it's worth, I'm one of those players who were absolutely wrong for the game, or at least completely outside their core demographic. I stated from the beginning that I'd get a good few months out of it by enjoying the leveling content and playing barbie dream house with the Housing stuff, both of which I've done and enjoyed very much. But even so, that just won't sustain any significant group of people and I'm about to step out for a while myself. I'm honestly not sure how much of a chance this game has, if those financial reports are true this thing might not be long for this world, but if it does flourish (and for the record I hope it does, it really is a solid game mechanically and artistically) they may need to re-evaluate their stated design objective if they want anything approaching financial success.

    I never got past lvl 10, was there really very little for people to do outside hardcore raiding stuff at the endgame? I mean Aside from Raiding what were the big time sinks/objectives for more casual players?

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Dailies.

    Mostly broken PvP.

    Scorchwing.

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    Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Kai_San wrote: »
    - The game itself brought in too many people off the bat, and many of the wrong kind of people. No, not bad people. People who really were never going to like this game past the first week (or less, depending on how fast they decided to blast through levels). It is in this day in age as much a niche game as EVE. Its just not made for 90% of the people who would look at an MMO.
    This is absolutely true and really further solidifies the point many of us were making forever ago when we discovered that the stated objective for this game is "hardcore experiences for hardcore players hardcore hardcore". There's absolutely nothing wrong with catering to those types of players, but I think it's pretty clear from the given evidence that those people are even more of an extreme minority than they were in the heyday of MMOs six or eight years ago. As such, it's just not a wise move to hedge your entire bet on that group when you're launching a brand-new MMO with an as-yet unestablished intellectual property.

    For what it's worth, I'm one of those players who were absolutely wrong for the game, or at least completely outside their core demographic. I stated from the beginning that I'd get a good few months out of it by enjoying the leveling content and playing barbie dream house with the Housing stuff, both of which I've done and enjoyed very much. But even so, that just won't sustain any significant group of people and I'm about to step out for a while myself. I'm honestly not sure how much of a chance this game has, if those financial reports are true this thing might not be long for this world, but if it does flourish (and for the record I hope it does, it really is a solid game mechanically and artistically) they may need to re-evaluate their stated design objective if they want anything approaching financial success.

    I never got past lvl 10, was there really very little for people to do outside hardcore raiding stuff at the endgame? I mean Aside from Raiding what were the big time sinks/objectives for more casual players?

    You beat me.

    I got 30 minutes of early start night.

    Then 10 more minutes a week later.

    Learned a $60 lesson in why I shouldn't participate in betas, and an even harder lesson in what I actually want to do with my free time.

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    KyanilisKyanilis Bellevue, WARegistered User regular
    Saldonas wrote: »
    I'm giving the game another month but I think my wife and I are gonna hop back in to WoW after this. It'll be like a totally different game with all the altered early level content. We'll probably roll up some new character on Wyrmrest Accord, Horde side, where we have a couple other friends playing already.

    See, I've been trying to stay away from WoW again in general, but I'm starting to feel the pull again. I'll probably resub myself shortly. Really wish Wildstar had SOMETHING to appeal to the "non-hardcore", I really liked the gameplay, etc.

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    HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Kai_San wrote: »
    - The game itself brought in too many people off the bat, and many of the wrong kind of people. No, not bad people. People who really were never going to like this game past the first week (or less, depending on how fast they decided to blast through levels). It is in this day in age as much a niche game as EVE. Its just not made for 90% of the people who would look at an MMO.
    This is absolutely true and really further solidifies the point many of us were making forever ago when we discovered that the stated objective for this game is "hardcore experiences for hardcore players hardcore hardcore". There's absolutely nothing wrong with catering to those types of players, but I think it's pretty clear from the given evidence that those people are even more of an extreme minority than they were in the heyday of MMOs six or eight years ago. As such, it's just not a wise move to hedge your entire bet on that group when you're launching a brand-new MMO with an as-yet unestablished intellectual property.

    For what it's worth, I'm one of those players who were absolutely wrong for the game, or at least completely outside their core demographic. I stated from the beginning that I'd get a good few months out of it by enjoying the leveling content and playing barbie dream house with the Housing stuff, both of which I've done and enjoyed very much. But even so, that just won't sustain any significant group of people and I'm about to step out for a while myself. I'm honestly not sure how much of a chance this game has, if those financial reports are true this thing might not be long for this world, but if it does flourish (and for the record I hope it does, it really is a solid game mechanically and artistically) they may need to re-evaluate their stated design objective if they want anything approaching financial success.

    I never got past lvl 10, was there really very little for people to do outside hardcore raiding stuff at the endgame? I mean Aside from Raiding what were the big time sinks/objectives for more casual players?

    Corehealer beat me to it but yeah, the amount of content for non-raiders is very lean and pretty much amounts to hopping on the treadmill to grind dailies for Valor Points Elder Gems or PvP. To be fair, Carbine never really claimed there'd be more than that for the non-raiding players as the raiders are who they are aiming this game towards. Still, it's a shame since the rest of the game is so well made. I really can't say enough about the leveling game.

    The art, combat and especially the music in this game are easily on par with the best of the genre (better in the case of the music) in my opinion.

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    SaldonasSaldonas See you space cowboy...Registered User regular
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    Saldonas wrote: »
    I'm giving the game another month but I think my wife and I are gonna hop back in to WoW after this. It'll be like a totally different game with all the altered early level content. We'll probably roll up some new character on Wyrmrest Accord, Horde side, where we have a couple other friends playing already.

    See, I've been trying to stay away from WoW again in general, but I'm starting to feel the pull again. I'll probably resub myself shortly. Really wish Wildstar had SOMETHING to appeal to the "non-hardcore", I really liked the gameplay, etc.

    Playing for 1-50 the whole time with my wife was super enjoyable. Seeing as she'll never raid or do dungeons in Wildstar, it seemed like a good idea to find another game we could start from the beginning on again. We will go back to our 80s on Argent Dawn later on too.

    Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/carthuun
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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Corehealer beat me to it but yeah, the amount of content for non-raiders is very lean and pretty much amounts to hopping on the treadmill to grind dailies for Valor Points Elder Gems or PvP. To be fair, Carbine never really claimed there'd be more than that for the non-raiding players as the raiders are who they are aiming this game towards. Still, it's a shame since the rest of the game is so well made. I really can't say enough about the leveling game.

    They did not explicitly say as much, no, but they certainly gave people plenty of ambiguous reasons to think there might in fact be more to the game then just raiding. Rewatching the following starting at 3:15:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4_riSI7Ydg

    Leads me to the realization that, yes, once again, marketers fudge details while being technically correct in order to better sell the game to everyone, not just hardcore raiders. People could say an Adventure here is not, in fact, Adventures as we know them now to be in Wildstar and just say they are "PvE Content". What kind of adventures will you be able to have? Let your imagination run wild.

    And that's not even touching upon the casual friendly housing system that they (Carbine) probably thought would keep people interested in the grind for more stuff to put in their house and that it would all feedback loop into their main push for raiders.

    That's something that happens alot with the hype train. You think you know what you're getting and create an ideal in your head that can never totally be satisfied, or not for long. It's happened to me more times then I care to count because it embarasses me that I fall for the hype again and again. But here we are again. People hit the cap, hit the raid attunement wall, and hit the road. The devs didn't lie to us, but they sure as hell didn't make the right call in going in the grognard raiding direction that they went in the year 2014.

    A hardcore raiders only focus might be a consistent breed of gamer to shoot for in terms of a financial model but there is nowhere near enough of them to ever keep this thing afloat for long. If they wanted to do that, they should have made a cheaper game that was more niche in appearance as well as in fact instead of trying to cater to everyone, just like all the other recent big budget MMO flops have done in recent history, leaving the majority disappointed and disillusioned. Now they will slowly and reluctantly roll things back, too late to stop people from leaving and probably never coming back, and disappointing the few that do like their game the way it is, and they will lay people off who worked on the game if they haven't already because they can't justify having that many people on board.

    Wildstar is going to be a test case, and an important one, in why MMO developers, publishers like NCSoft, and the investors that buy into this shit, had better wake up and fucking realize that THIS MODEL ISN'T WORKING ANYMORE and that they should be willing and eager to risk their money on new ideas that aren't just minor iterations on the old, or they should just stop making these kinds of games altogether and get out of the genre. Let other people make MMOs with smaller budgets, or do what FF14 and Yoshi P is doing with actually fast and significant content generation, or maybe just leave the genre alone for a while and see what happens.
    The art, combat and especially the music in this game are easily on par with the best of the genre (better in the case of the music) in my opinion.

    This is true, but gorgeous art and music are not a successful MMO. They are a single, less important element. The music in particular in Wildstar is amazing and Jeff Kurtenacker should be commended for it and hired by other studios to do work for them in a similar vein. But his efforts don't keep people playing the game. They get him on their playlists, which is good for him.

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I am mainly just sad that Gaffney and company made a lot of compelling arguments, that greatly interested me as a student of game design myself, and then they went around and did a lot of what they insisted that they were not going to do, like launch too fast without making sure a lot of stuff like PvP stats, warplots, the elder gem vendor, the AMP and respec systems, quest bugs, the 40 man raid bugs, and a whole bunch else was working. NCSoft almost certainly pushed them out the door too quick, but this is what we ended up with.

    And then we get silly stuff like the events in Blighthaven, where it was painfully obvious the area had been made months before launch and had relics from an earlier, crazier version of the game with stupid Scorchwing tagging being the biggest offender.

    These last few years of MMOs, especially GW2 and Wildstar, have convinced me that the genre I love is perhaps not the best place to find a job, and that I'd be better off working on smaller games, or even outside the industry on other artistic pursuits, rather then grapple with the existing, deeply flawed notion that we need to keep fucking that dead horse and going after WoW or just derivatives of the pure themepark when that shit just simply does not work.

    Like, I imagine what kind of position the developers at Carbine must have been in and are still in, from investors and NCSoft on the one hand and then the players on the other, demanding different things in return for their time and money. I do not want to be in that position, not because having things demanded of oneself is unreasonable, but because the kinds of things that these two groups would want to demand of the developer can be and often are unreasonable and counter to each other. If that is how we make MMOs because they take so long and are so expensive that we cannot afford to risk things, even when doing nothing but minor alterations and incremental changes to game design of these things results in the much worse and more likely risk of having a one month, three month wonder and F2P garbage, then I want nothing more to do with it. And that saddens me deeply.

    Corehealer on
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    HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    Couldn't agree more, but I do feel that it needs to be said: the leveling game in Wildstar is very good. I highly encourage anyone who did not go through 1-50 to do so (unless leveling just isn't your bag, though I'm not sure why one would play an MMO such as this if that were the case) as it really highlights the amazing art direction, combat and music in the game. At the very least get to Farside; the moon sections there with the lowered gravity are so awesome, especially the 'dark of the moon' sections with the little Alien and other sci-fi callbacks. Incredibly well done.

    Wildstar does a few things very well, most notably those I've listed above, but more specifically the paths really do help to add that extra bit of flavor to the leveling game. They aren't perfect, nothing is, but the content they add helps to accentuate the flow of the leveling that much more, from the scientist scanning flora and fauna to learn more about the planet to the explorer's jump puzzles and so on. It's a great feature that I hope other developers take note of. Other things like the way you traverse the landscape, from Farside's lowered gravity to the crystals that allow you to jump higher (don't recall the zone's name) to hoverboards and more. It really makes a big difference between walking and riding a mount to get from point A to point B.

    There's a lot to like in Wildstar for the non-raider. It's just a shame that it all comes to a screeching halt as soon as you hit the level cap.

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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Oh my god, core, you would have to be a sadist to ever consider trying to work in the MMO genre.

    It has to be the worst place to be involved in gaming, the stress is like 10 times higher but the pay is usually equal or lower.

    Plus, I could not imagine working on a game that just by its type is going to warrant the WORST of humanity's ire and toxicity.

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Oh my god, core, you would have to be a sadist to ever consider trying to work in the MMO genre.

    It has to be the worst place to be involved in gaming, the stress is like 10 times higher but the pay is usually equal or lower.

    Plus, I could not imagine working on a game that just by its type is going to warrant the WORST of humanity's ire and toxicity.

    I want to work on them because I love them and because I want the genre to unlock it's real potential.

    But yeah, you're right about all the above, and I probably won't. I will most likely take my burgeoning skills elsewhere.

    Archeage has been fun recently and I'll probably go with it and see what happens, and it shows that the Koreans and the Asian devs in general are, despite their grindfest tendencies, taking the genre in a better direction, balancing sandbox and themepark elements more fluidly. But even that has me wondering if I'll be able to keep up with the genre long term.

    I have high hopes for Star Citizen, Everquest Next which I've already supported, and the new Warhammer 40k MMO which I imagine may be an evolution on the Planetside and Planetside 2 model of FPS MMOs. That's where I am at right now.

    Corehealer on
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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    You know watching the Warrior solo Redmoon video makes me think I would LOVE this game if it was single player somehow.

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    I would also like to add to the above that I met a lot of cool PAers and people in BDH and NZC that I look forward to playing with in the future, whenever our paths cross again. Particularly @Beezel @surette and @Eisenhide‌ who were great to chat with late at night on Mumble and knew their shit.

    I help admin the PA Teamspeak 3 server. Stop by sometime. Or ping me on Steam. We can make it rain.

    Wildstar at least gave me some memorable moments, some laughs, some writing ideas and most importantly, some friends. And it only took it a month or so to do so.

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    SomeWarlockSomeWarlock Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Kai_San wrote: »
    You know watching the Warrior solo Redmoon video makes me think I would LOVE this game if it was single player somehow.

    They were going to have solo dungeons at some point, but they never made it into the final game obviously.

    It also kinda shows the notion that Wildstar was sold as a hardcore raiding game exclusively is wrong, since they talked about how important the solo end game is and how Wildstar's solo end game was going to be amazing and whatnot.

    And the great irony of that interview is Graffney said that daily grinds, rep grinds and like suck, and they ended up being majority of Wildstar's solo end game.

    SomeWarlock on
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    sumwarsumwar Registered User regular
    It's unfortunate Wildstar didn't turn out as well as it could of:(. I know this sounds weird but my dream is to be able to raid in MMOs with bots that are at my exact same skill level with the same knowledge of the fights. I'm not saying I'm amazing and everyone else is terrible I just can't stand being on a schedule even if it's only 3 hours a week. Guild drama and politics is also something that steers me away from real raiding into LFR. I love raiding but if you're not going to have LFR maybe you should just focus on other aspects of MMOs. Not all MMOs need raiding, most people don't even do them.

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    MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Yeaaaah. I think I'm done. The specific moment that brought me to this conclusion--

    There's a mini-boss in Genetic Archives which you get to after killing every boss but Ohmna. This boss chain-casts a 10 second long ability which wipes the raid if it gets off.

    He has 5 IA. If you successfully interrupt the mini-boss, you don't get a MMO or anything -- the mini-boss just deals a ton of damage to the whole raid, and begins casting again instantly.

    This means that you have to have around 4 groups of 2-3 people hitting 1-3 interrupts, over and over again, in perfect time. If a single person loses focus, you wipe.

    Also, the boss has a shit ton of health.

    I was seriously considering just alt-F4ing and uninstalling the game, somewhere around the 2 hour mark of wiping to this one boss over and over again.

    And of course when we finally downed it, it dropped just one piece of shitty loot.

    This one miniboss is a perfect example of everything that's wrong with Wildstar. It's a punishing, unforgiving game for the most part. Either you ace encounters or you wipe. This sounds really fun, right? It was. For a while. But now it's just exhausting.

    Melkster on
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    DraevenDraeven Registered User regular
    would it be different if they upped all the drops at least and made it worth the time to actually learn and do these fights ? i mean it just sounds like for the massive amount of work you have to do you don't get shit for a reward.

    Morskitter wrote "Spikes, choppas, tentacles, magic? Can't hold a candle to Sergeant Pimp here."

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    KyanilisKyanilis Bellevue, WARegistered User regular
    Draeven wrote: »
    would it be different if they upped all the drops at least and made it worth the time to actually learn and do these fights ? i mean it just sounds like for the massive amount of work you have to do you don't get shit for a reward.

    It would be an improvement, yes, but isn't the overall issue. It's that fights aren't always just "hardcore" it's that they're just frustrating. By the sounds of that description you've got roughly 8-12 people that if even ONE misses their cue it's a wipe. It sounds like it's a long and boring fight as the mechanic seems poorly thought out. No, it doesn't help that the carrot at the end is stupidly small, but there's definitely more to the problem.

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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    Draeven wrote: »
    would it be different if they upped all the drops at least and made it worth the time to actually learn and do these fights ? i mean it just sounds like for the massive amount of work you have to do you don't get shit for a reward.

    It would be an improvement, yes, but isn't the overall issue. It's that fights aren't always just "hardcore" it's that they're just frustrating. By the sounds of that description you've got roughly 8-12 people that if even ONE misses their cue it's a wipe. It sounds like it's a long and boring fight as the mechanic seems poorly thought out. No, it doesn't help that the carrot at the end is stupidly small, but there's definitely more to the problem.

    Erm, maybe he left something out, but thats not even close to the case.

    10 Second cast means 8-9 sec of the boss not doing anything. 3 Warriors can get 12 combines interrupt (suck it up, spec t8 kick) on short ass CDs. Enough that the three of them should be fine and everyone else in the raid (17 people) can spec 1 interrupt and if something goes wrong have the RL yell "SMASH FACE KEYBOARD" and everyone else spams interrupts and safety is assured.

    That hardly seems even remotely difficult. Like I said, maybe he left something out, but this is hardly difficult to organize.

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    MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Kai_San wrote: »
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    Draeven wrote: »
    would it be different if they upped all the drops at least and made it worth the time to actually learn and do these fights ? i mean it just sounds like for the massive amount of work you have to do you don't get shit for a reward.

    It would be an improvement, yes, but isn't the overall issue. It's that fights aren't always just "hardcore" it's that they're just frustrating. By the sounds of that description you've got roughly 8-12 people that if even ONE misses their cue it's a wipe. It sounds like it's a long and boring fight as the mechanic seems poorly thought out. No, it doesn't help that the carrot at the end is stupidly small, but there's definitely more to the problem.

    Erm, maybe he left something out, but thats not even close to the case.

    10 Second cast means 8-9 sec of the boss not doing anything. 3 Warriors can get 12 combines interrupt (suck it up, spec t8 kick) on short ass CDs. Enough that the three of them should be fine and everyone else in the raid (17 people) can spec 1 interrupt and if something goes wrong have the RL yell "SMASH FACE KEYBOARD" and everyone else spams interrupts and safety is assured.

    That hardly seems even remotely difficult. Like I said, maybe he left something out, but this is hardly difficult to organize.

    You forgot the part that when you interrupt the cast, the whole raid is dealt a whole bunch of damage. So if 17 people cast their one interrupt, the boss would be interrupted 3 times, and you would wipe.

    There's another mechanic too which I didn't mention. The boss summons these bomb-like telegraphs over the whole room continuously, which have to be "popped" safely by a meaty tank. If a tank mis-times popping a bomb when an interrupt goes off, the tank will die. So it's very important that the interrupts go off exactly on schedule.

    Melkster on
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    surettesurette kill the switch Boston, MARegistered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    I would also like to add to the above that I met a lot of cool PAers and people in BDH and NZC that I look forward to playing with in the future, whenever our paths cross again. Particularly @Beezel @surette and @Eisenhide‌ who were great to chat with late at night on Mumble and knew their shit.

    I help admin the PA Teamspeak 3 server. Stop by sometime. Or ping me on Steam. We can make it rain.

    Wildstar at least gave me some memorable moments, some laughs, some writing ideas and most importantly, some friends. And it only took it a month or so to do so.
    for sure man, this was my first time in a PA guild and I'm tremendously grateful for the people I've met because of WildStar. BDH definitely contributed to my enjoyment of the game. Any/all of you can feel free to add me on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/scottsurette/

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    sumwarsumwar Registered User regular
    There is definitely a way to make a raid hard but not frustrating. Sounds like the Wildstar devs don't have enough experience in making high quality hard raids in a non frustrating way. Took Blizzard ages to really get a good understanding of how to make fun raids. I remember countless tiers with major problems that are much rarer today.

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    FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    I would say most of the fights are hard without being frustrating though. I haven't done conclave/ohmna yet and their minibosses, but one frustrating miniboss out of a lot is not too bad for their first effort.

    Raiding is focused around consistent play from everyone though, there are a bunch of mechanics that kill several people if one person fucks up.

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    DraevenDraeven Registered User regular
    I think your missing something , it would be one thing if it was just consistent play, but its consistent flawless play from 20 to 40 people all at once. Thats just mind boggling.

    Morskitter wrote "Spikes, choppas, tentacles, magic? Can't hold a candle to Sergeant Pimp here."

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    DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Draeven wrote: »
    I think your missing something , it would be one thing if it was just consistent play, but its consistent flawless play from 20 to 40 people all at once. Thats just mind boggling.

    This is the inherent flaw in Raid content the more people you put in a particular encounter. As the number of involved players increases the difficulty of the content itself needs to be eased to account for the logistics of coordinating the increased number of players.

    You basically only have two options if you want to create a 40 man raid that is functional. You need to make the content easy enough that 40 people can do it without much issue, or the content needs to be harder but the cost of failure needs to be low (The 25 good players, and 15 warm bodies route)

    Making it so all 40 players need to be coordinated and have a failure rate where even one player screwing up can cause wipes is a recipe for disaster for the game.

    Personally I think anything over 20, maybe 25 players isn't worth the effort, and even in those cases the content can't be tuned too tightly for the same reasons. Just having 20/25 people is a difficulty in and of itself, so the content needs to be fairly straightforward or the grouping needs to be split up to allow one section to fail but the other groups to carry through if possible.

    5 man raids are ideal for tightly tuned content, 10 man raids can get by as well with still tightly tuned content, but anything over that needs to be more casual in difficulty as the number of players alone will increase the difficulty. It's doable, other games have done it extremely well, but you just can't have hardcore endgame raiding with 40 players and expect anything beyond maybe 1-2% of the playerbase to be able to do it. And while it's ok to gate some content, you need to have something for the 98% of the playerbase to do as well or they'll just leave.

    Delphinidaes on
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    FrugusFrugus Photographer MontrealRegistered User regular
    I'm one of the "bad people" you guys are referring too. No offense, I think the term sounds harsh but it fits the bill. I also admit that I did not give the game a fair chance when it came out. Though I was a bit into the hype train and read more articles than most, I still did not take the time to properly understand the game play mechanics and interface. It took me almost a week before I reached level 11 and gave up then and there.

    On Saturday morning I re-subbed, not sure exactly why (I think PA has been making me think I was probably missing out on something). I played with one of my alts (warrior) who was fresh out of the Gambler, and in less than two hours time I was at level 9. The difference was that I took some time to really read everything twice, google up the terms I did not understand and made sure I would have more answers than questions in terms of my experience. Killing stuff was a breeze compared to my Spellslinger. On my second evening I had reached level 11, and then I decided to give my main another chance. That evening I reached 15. All the while I kept going like "MAN I CAN'T BELIEVE I COULD DO THAT".

    And THEN I started going Bamf. I guess you could imagine what my face was like.

    I wondered why the hell I had ever left. At that point I started looking for the Penny-Arcade guild again, and realized only too late the sad state this game is in, and say what you want, but I really think it does not deserve this. Everything in this game is beautiful. My geek heart is broken in a million pieces after reading this forum page alone, which seems to be shared with other popular forums...

    What I mean is that bad people like me are most likely one of the biggest problem this game suffered from - we are probably not patient enough on a number of things.

    Anyway. Now I'm going to keep on playing until I can't take the server exodus no more, and for that matter, I can only wish that the guild I found will be a good enough home until I get by. I just hope they will have server mergers at some point, but seeing how this has always been an extremely complicated thing, I can only hope it ever happens. Either that or I will have to move to Pergo, but I would rather stay on Stormtalon.

    Frugus Eggbeater
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