[Superhero Movies] Who IS this mysterious masked man?

Grey Ghost

Having Rhett Butler be a black man and occupy the same role in the story very nearly moves Gone With the Wind into fantasy or some kind of weird alternate history territory
It makes zero sense

Langly

Langly wrote: »

What even got said

Langly

Grey Ghost wrote: »

Having Rhett Butler be a black man and occupy the same role in the story very nearly moves Gone With the Wind into fantasy or some kind of weird alternate history territory
It makes zero sense

Yeah if that's the goal then fine

Cilla Black

I think it'd be hilarious

People would go apeshit, absolutely apeshit, over a black rhett butler

It might actually spark a second civil war

Grey Ghost

If you wanted to rewrite, like, an entire half of Gone With the Wind around the race change and try to make it a story about the struggles of a man in his position and his relationship with Scarlett, that could be a worthwhile endeavor

But you can't just cast a black actor and keep the surrounding circumstances the same

Grey Ghost

Grey Ghost wrote: »

If you wanted to rewrite, like, an entire half of Gone With the Wind around the race change and try to make it a story about the struggles of a man in his position and his relationship with Scarlett, that could be a worthwhile endeavor

But you can't just cast a black actor and keep the surrounding circumstances the same

Actually, somebody please do this
It might finally make Gone With the Wind the slightest bit interesting

Langly

Cilla Black wrote: »

I think it'd be hilarious

People would go apeshit, absolutely apeshit, over a black rhett butler

It might actually spark a second civil war

People would think it was stupid. It would be incredibly offensive and tone deaf. You'd have a free black character set in the civil war make the courageous decision to go fight for the confederacy while engaging with and supporting Slavery

Guek

The more I think about it, the more I feel Marvel's strategy for film represents a much greater deal of faith in their properties versus DC's unsure and insecure approach. Guardians for example is being pushed exceptionally hard. Marvel aligned the movie with a switch to one of their more popular authors in the hopes that a b-list franchise such as Guardians might be able to hit mainstream appeal achieved by the likes of iron man and cap in their respective movies. DC conversely seems to believe that none of their characters can sell without the help of batman and the subsequent major early push to establish the JLA in the DCCU. IPs like wonder woman or Martian Manhunter or Doom Patrol are seen as incapable becoming beloved on their own merits.

Langly

Like have you guys seen the movie

sarukun

Langly wrote: »

sarukun wrote: »

Centipede Damascus wrote: »

Undead Scottsman wrote: »

I said this in the other thread, but what's wrong with casting Will Smith as Rhett Butler? Why should this make me go "Oh, I guess you're right; casting Jordon as Storm is a bad idea" after hearing it?

Well, specifically for Rhett Butler, it would be kind of hard to tell a Civil War story if you ignore the racial component.

Johnny Storm has no ties to a monstrously racist time period though

Yeah, like, I don't really think it would be hard.

I think it would just set a very different artistic tone than "THIS IS THE STORY OF SOME SHIT THAT HAPPENED IN THE SOUTH AND WE ARE SEEING IT AS IT HAPPENED IS YOUR DISBELIEF SUSPENDED YET OKAY COOL HERE WE GO".

It asks a little extra step of the audience.

And for some people that's apparently crazy town.

Gone with the wind is historical fiction, yeah it's crazy town

Like you realize he goes off to fight for the confederacy right

Not to mention the implication of miscegenation laws

Yes

And I am not suggesting that doesn't have implications or doesn't creates a weird artistic space

but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

It would require a lot more on the part of the audience to really think about what's going on in the film

but that is good.

It is the opposite of crazy town.

In a vacuum, casting Will Smith as Rhett Butler makes no sense

but nobody is going to cast Will Smith as Rhett Butler in a vacuum.

Cilla Black

Langly wrote: »

Cilla Black wrote: »

I think it'd be hilarious

People would go apeshit, absolutely apeshit, over a black rhett butler

It might actually spark a second civil war

People would think it was stupid. It would be incredibly offensive and tone deaf. You'd have a free black character set in the civil war make the courageous decision to go fight for the confederacy while engaging with and supporting Slavery

It would be stupid and it is offensive and I'm not suggeting it get made

Bit the amount of people who would hate it for the wrong reason is astronomical

It would be the ultimate barometer in the south for who is and is not a closet racist

Again, it shouldn't be made, but imagining the reaction down here from the proud confederate flag waving white people is making me smile a lot.

-Tal

would the confederate flag waving people not celebrate black rhett buttler as "one of the good ones" for fighting for the liberation of the south

sarukun

-Tal wrote: »

would the confederate flag waving people not celebrate black rhett buttler as "one of the good ones" for fighting for the liberation of the south

I rather just think their heads would explode.

Cilla Black

-Tal wrote: »

would the confederate flag waving people not celebrate black rhett buttler as "one of the good ones" for fighting for the liberation of the south

Some probably

But not most

Some genuinely believe their own bullshit but most of them are just racist.

DE?AD

Look, can we all just agree 90s-early-00s era Smith's delivery of "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" would be delightful?

AtomicTofu

DE?AD wrote: »

Look, can we all just agree 90s-early-00s era Smith's delivery of "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" would be delightful?

I just want to hear the song he'll be contributing to the soundtrack.

Hermano

https://twitter.com/ImageComics/status/479371776586436608

mxmarks

Centipede Damascus wrote: »

mxmarks wrote: »

Hey guys.

Original Sins #1 should have been a free preview issue and is very bad.

Like, really really bad.

I have no idea what #2, or 3-5 for that matter, will even do.

I am sad I spent money on it.

did you maybe confuse the companion anthology series "Original Sins" with the event series "Original Sin"

Nah, I grabbed it WITH Original Sin #4, because I was loving Original Sin.

In the past when I've gotten into events I grab the companion series and they're usually OK. This one seemed cool and I had heard was "the result of the secrets exposed".

It is very much not that at all. The cover says "DEATHLOK. YOUNG AVENGERS. LOCKJAW." I am super excited for Deathlok, and loved Lockjaw, and never read Young Avengers, so lets do this!

It's a 5 page Deathlok preview (which was cool).

Then a totally separate big story about Young Avengers, which I hated.

Then a Sunday morning newspaper-esque 2 page Lockjaw gag-comic that was cute but stupid.

It was not worth $4, and read a lot like the free preview issues they throw out a lot when new NOW! titles launch.

If you like Young Avengers, it seems to be the only thing that will be followed up upon in this 5 part miniseries thing, as the Dethlok story ended with "To be continued in October with Dethlok #1!", and the Lockjaw story ended with "End."

Langly

I don't think racists would be mad I think black people would be mad

UnbrokenEva

mxmarks wrote: »

Centipede Damascus wrote: »

mxmarks wrote: »

Hey guys.

Original Sins #1 should have been a free preview issue and is very bad.

Like, really really bad.

I have no idea what #2, or 3-5 for that matter, will even do.

I am sad I spent money on it.

did you maybe confuse the companion anthology series "Original Sins" with the event series "Original Sin"

Nah, I grabbed it WITH Original Sin #4, because I was loving Original Sin.

In the past when I've gotten into events I grab the companion series and they're usually OK. This one seemed cool and I had heard was "the result of the secrets exposed".

It is very much not that at all. The cover says "DEATHLOK. YOUNG AVENGERS. LOCKJAW." I am super excited for Deathlok, and loved Lockjaw, and never read Young Avengers, so lets do this!

It's a 5 page Deathlok preview (which was cool).

Then a totally separate big story about Young Avengers, which I hated.

Then a Sunday morning newspaper-esque 2 page Lockjaw gag-comic that was cute but stupid.

It was not worth $4, and read a lot like the free preview issues they throw out a lot when new NOW! titles launch.

If you like Young Avengers, it seems to be the only thing that will be followed up upon in this 5 part miniseries thing, as the Dethlok story ended with "To be continued in October with Dethlok #1!", and the Lockjaw story ended with "End."

All-New Marvel Now! Point One wasn't free though

Langly

And I still have no idea what was originally said

PaperLuigi44

Harry Dresden wrote: »

Get your popcorn, folks. Let's see what John Byrne thinks about Michael B. Jordan being Johnny Storm.

The other night, on his “news” show, John Oliver made a passing (and snarky) comment about people who get upset when non-White actors are cast as FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, (emphasis his)

This earned an epic eye roll from me, of course, and sent my tired old brain rumbling down pathways that are, by now, all too familiar.

This time, tho, I found myself landing in a spot I had not visited before. Of course I object to race-swapping in movies (which is something very different from “colorblind casting”), and I wondered how far Oliver would be comfortable going with his contempt for those who share my views. If, for instance, there was a remake of GONE WITH THE WIND, would it be perfectly acceptable to cast Will Smith as Rhett Butler?

Hollywood had noticed that the steady spread of VCRs and home entertainment systems, not to mention cable movie channels, meant more and more affluent White people were staying home to watch movies. More and more movie theaters were becoming the province of the less affluent, which Hollywood read as minorities, especially Black people.

So, once again something positive — a greater presence of minorities in movies — sprang from the Box Office, not any sort of desire by Hollywood to “do the right thing.”

It is currently a fad in Hollywood — bordering on a fetish, it sometimes seems — to swap out White characters for other races and ethnicities. And I am frankly amazed that the Black community is not outraged by this patronizing modern version of blackface. Where are the roles created FOR Black actors? Why should Will Smith, Samuel L. Jackson, Halle Berry, etc, have to settle for table scraps?

This is, of course, a completely racist attitude. Or would it be okay to change a Black character into a White one, or an Asian one, or a Native American one, if the author who created the character was himself Black, and therefore using a “default” setting?

I’ve attended several local theater productions with race-swapping in the cast. A few years back, Shakespeare on the Sound did a week of OTHELLO, with a Black actor, naturally, in the lead, but also with a Black actor as Cassio. While this added an interesting layer to Othello’s paranoia (does Desdemona just have a thing for Black guys?), it also took away the “stranger in a strange land” aspect of Othello’s character. Instead of being THE Moor of Venice, he became but one of an unspecified number of Black people in the city.

A while later, I saw a small theater groups’ production of ARSENIC AND OLD LACE, with a Black actor in the role of Jonathan Brewster. Now, aside from the problems this creates with the rest of his blood relatives being White, the character is described in the play, several times, as looking like Boris Karloff. At the very least, a bit of judicious script editing might have been applied?

This is, of course, why I maintain “colorblind casting” and “race swapping” are two different things. “Colorblind casting” applies when the race of the character is not known. James Earl Jones in THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER, for instance. “Race swapping” is when one known race is swapped out for another.

And from where I stand, race swapping is like treating a gangrenous leg by cutting off a toe. If there is a lack of roles, especially good roles, for “minority” players — and there most certainly IS! — then FIX THAT. Don’t put a bandaid on it.

When it comes to casting a Black actor as Johnny Storm, there is a degree of historical ignorance at work that is insulting to Stan Lee and the memory of Jack Kirby.

Lee and Kirby, both New York Jews, did not “cast” the Fantastic Four as extensions of themselves. It took fifty years for a writer (and I wish it had been me!) to identify Ben Grimm as Jewish. But what Stan and Jack did when shaping the early Marvel Universe was demonstrate a social conscience in the best ways the Nation at the time would tolerate. And let us not forget, it was Stan and Jack who desegregated the American Armed Forces almost a decade before it happened in real life.

Lee, Kirby, Ditko and the rest introduced ethnic and racial minorities with a far greater frequency than, say, DC. Wyatt Wingfoot became a regular member of the FF’s supporting cast. Robbie Robertson showed up in Spider-Man. The Black Panther arrived. Heroic non-White figures arose from the ranks of the common man. Remember Al B. Harper, who died to save the world?

When Johnny is race-swapped the inevitable response from some segments of fandom and the media is that this is “necessary” due to comics in the 1960s being hotbeds of White supremacy — while nothing is further from the truth. American comics had long been the home to some of the most liberal, forward thinking people you were likely to meet. They cannot be taken to task for portraying society as that society perceived itself. But they should definitely be lauded for being, often, ahead of the curve when it came to social reform.

Acting, actors will often tell us when at their most pretentious, is about TRUTH. There is no TRUTH in casting actors from races other than that of the character, and then pretending nothing else has changed.
White guys don’t think they’re being racist when they turn a White character Black, or Asian, or anything other than White, but they are. What many fail to understand is that distinguishing an individual (fictional or otherwise) purely on the basis of race is racist.Looking at a cast of characters and asking “Which one can we make Black?” turns being Black into nothing more than skin color. There is no consideration of the very different experiences Black people have in this country, and, indeed, in the World.If we took a story written by a Black African, set in Africa, about Africans, and arbitrarily turned one of the characters White, there would be (justifiable) outrage. The valid point would be made that we cannot simply “whitewash” a Black character and end up with the same person, the same dynamic, the same presence in the story.How is it any different to take a White character and paint him/her Black? Nick Fury, to cite but one example, had to turn into a different character when he was painted Black. Why not MAKE him a different character? Give him is own identity, instead of one handed down from on high by White folk? Make him Gabe Jones, or Gabe Jones Jr, or Gabe Jones III, if you want to tie into existing continuity. As the “Everything That’s Wrong With…” site so aptly points out, Fury in the Marvel Movies has no depth at all. He is defined entirely by the eyepatch.And Samuel L. Jackson is okay with this?(As I have said before, I do not understand why Mr. Jackson did not sue Marvel when they used his likeness, without permission, as the “Ultimate” Nick Fury. His likeness is his brand. Does he feel no need to protect it? Can I make him a character in one of my STAR TREK photonovels and expect no letters from his lawyers? And if I got such a letter, could I not point to the Fury character, and his subsequent endorsement of it, and say “That ship has sailed!”)

The sad fact is that civilians automatically perceive the movies as BETTER than the comics — usually without any knowledge of the comics. Recall the reviewers who praised Tim Burton’s “vision” for Batman, apparently unaware that he was doing what Denny O’Neil, Neal Adams, Frank Miller and a host of others had been doing in the comics for decades. As far as the reviewers were concerned, Batman was Adam West.Comics are viewed with disdain, and comic FANS are viewed with disdain. (And given the kind of public representation we get, this is no small wonder.) Thus, if a fan speaks out against the excesses of Hollywood, said fan is immediately identifying himself as a feeble minded loser.But what’s worse is when so-called fans themselves take this position, drinking the Hollywood Kool-Aid and making excuses for the transgressions. Magpies, I call them. As long as what’s up on the screen is bright and shiny, anything is acceptable. (Oh, and if you can arrange for Wolverine to say “fuck,” then you are a GENIUS!!)

When a property is fifty years old — take the X-Men, for instance — it is understandable that a moviemaker would want to confabulate as much as possible, rather than starting on the first page of the first issue. After all — X-Men again — most of the characters in that first issue would be unrecognizable to a modern comic fan audience.

Of course, this is where the weird part comes in. Hollywood will tell us that if every comic fan in America boycotted their latest effort, it would have almost zero effect on the Box Office — and yet they pander to those fans. But they do it in a halfassed way. So they’ll throw in some “clever” reference that will get the fanboys swooning, while demolishing acres of property next door. “Hey, look! Juggernaut said ‘Im the Juggernaut, bitch!’ That’s so cool? What? They got Kitty’s powers wrong and the actor doesn’t really look like Juggernaut (or Kitty)? So what! He said ‘Im the Juggernaut, bitch!’”

And civilians, of course, care not.

Many changes that Hollywood makes are just out of laziness. It’s easier to do it one way, rather than another. Race-swapping falls into this category. Rather than spending some time and effort on creating new Black characters — you know, actually respecting the history and heritage of the Black actors who will play them — just get out the shoe polish and go all Al Jolson on an existing character.

It was racist when Jolson did it.* It’s still racist. Only now, that racism has been repackaged in a way that makes some people think something POSITIVE is happening.

It isn’t.

* From time to time I have wondered how Jolson, who was born Asa Yoelson, would have reacted to a song-and-dance man who sported a huge beaked nose and a yarmulke. Would that horrifying cliché have been as “okay” as his own blackface routines?

Sometimes it doesn’t even take race or gender swapping to create such a schism. Consider Storm, as we met her in GIANT-SIZED X-MEN 1:

2014-06-13_060754_Storm

Mysterious, ancient, unworldly. . . but within a very short time she was born in Harlem and grew up with the first part of Modesty Blaise’s origin. A completely different character (and tied to a specific bit of world history, the Suez crisis, that makes her my age!!).

Coulson was not only a new character, but a White one. Since he is effectively the face of SHIELD, why not make him Black?

Here's the thread for context Byrne posted in for context. http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47023&PN=0&TPN=1

mxmarks

Fearghaill wrote: »

mxmarks wrote: »

Centipede Damascus wrote: »

mxmarks wrote: »

Hey guys.

Original Sins #1 should have been a free preview issue and is very bad.

Like, really really bad.

I have no idea what #2, or 3-5 for that matter, will even do.

I am sad I spent money on it.

did you maybe confuse the companion anthology series "Original Sins" with the event series "Original Sin"

Nah, I grabbed it WITH Original Sin #4, because I was loving Original Sin.

In the past when I've gotten into events I grab the companion series and they're usually OK. This one seemed cool and I had heard was "the result of the secrets exposed".

It is very much not that at all. The cover says "DEATHLOK. YOUNG AVENGERS. LOCKJAW." I am super excited for Deathlok, and loved Lockjaw, and never read Young Avengers, so lets do this!

It's a 5 page Deathlok preview (which was cool).

Then a totally separate big story about Young Avengers, which I hated.

Then a Sunday morning newspaper-esque 2 page Lockjaw gag-comic that was cute but stupid.

It was not worth $4, and read a lot like the free preview issues they throw out a lot when new NOW! titles launch.

If you like Young Avengers, it seems to be the only thing that will be followed up upon in this 5 part miniseries thing, as the Dethlok story ended with "To be continued in October with Dethlok #1!", and the Lockjaw story ended with "End."

All-New Marvel Now! Point One wasn't free though

Oh.

I think I got it free (and another #1's preview bundle) from Comixology then randomly.

Well, either way - unless you like Young Avengers, avoid this! It has nothing to do with Original Sin at all!

Langly

That sure reads like a chain letter

Chincymcchilla

Langly wrote: »

I don't think racists would be mad I think black people would be mad

Yeah you guys are looking at this like it would show white people

I think blank people might have something to say about this idea

nightmarenny

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

Langly wrote: »

I don't think racists would be mad I think black people would be mad

Yeah you guys are looking at this like it would show white people

I think blank people might have something to say about this idea

Fair enough lets ask one @blankzilla

Chincymcchilla

god dammit

Langly

The way to turn gone with the wind has already been done in the wind done gone

JayKaos

DE?AD wrote: »

Look, can we all just agree 90s-early-00s era Smith's delivery of "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" would be delightful?

I was about to reply with "Isn't that Casablanca?" then I thought about it a bit more and realized that you're right, whereas for whatever reason I was thinking of Sound of Music for this entire discussion.

Baroque And Roll

Yo what the fuck is happening in Avengers, right now? I have seriously NO idea how this is gonna play out.

And I wish this Nova book would go somewhere. Anywhere.

wirehead26

Speaking of Nova, I heard their was a fairly big reveal Original Sin related in the book?

Solar

I actually thought Nova was really, really good this week

like, Sam was friends with the Watcher. Maybe people would scoff at that but Sam's just a kid, all he knows is that the Watcher was helpful and nice (if weird) and that he thinks of Uatu as a buddy.

So when he dies, in a big event story, obviously the big event heroes deal with this important shit. But on a personal level, Sam was the guy who was hurt the most. He's lost a father, and now he's lost a kind of father figure, and it hits him hard. Which it should. And then he goes to try and get revenge and he... doesn't get it. The big name heroes finish off what he perceives as the killer. He's there but he doesn't do much.

I like that little narrative. That's what an event tie-in should be, a story which works off the main event but really explores the character of the titular hero in an interesting manner. You don't need to know why the Watcher was killed, so much as you are shown how upset Sam is, how much he wants to know why etc. Sam isn't a big name guy. But we see why the story is important to him.

And then we see more of the ongoing story with Sam's dead, we see his family help him honour the fallen Novas and we even get little reminders that other supporting characters who don't turn up are still there and still significant, the sub-plots continue at a nice pace while the main plot gives us a look at Sam in an unusual light for him, anger and grief, but doesn't go overboard.

Cool book, one of my favourite right now. It's classic teen hero, but hey, what's wrong with that? And the art is always lovely too.

Elderlycrawfish

wirehead26 wrote: »

Speaking of Nova, I heard their was a fairly big reveal Original Sin related in the book?

Sam just found out

his Dad might not be such a good guy after all.

Like, hunting down and killing other Novas back in the day.

GreasyKidsStuff

I'm having a hard time getting into All-New Captain Marvel. Last two issues have been really political and dealing with the aftermath of the Builders (whom I have no clue about), and honestly the art isn't grabbing me either. Having much more fun reading Superior Spidey, Moon Knight, and Ghost Rider.

Maybe I'll give it another issue and decide if I wanna keep reading.

edit: I should backpedal and say there isn't anything wrong with political stories per se, but as a new reader who isn't as familiar with any of the going-on's surrounding J'Son and the Galactic Alliance and whatever, it's kind of hard to get invested.

DarkPrimus

I keep seeing the thread title as "Who is this mysterious naked man"

UnbrokenEva

DarkPrimus wrote: »

I keep seeing the thread title as "Who is this mysterious naked man"

It can be both?

Matev

Got Wicked + Divine while out today. They got me hooked.

Lars

You know, I'd completely forgotten there was a Michael Bay-produced TMNT movie coming out.

I even got out my dvd of the original movie and watched it this past weekend and the upcoming movie never crossed my mind.

Now we have stupidly over-designed Shredder to remind me.

Ceno

Looks like RDJ is done shooting his part of Avengers 2.

https://twitter.com/RobertDowneyJr/status/479410801933959168

durandal4532

Man I think it is pretty dire to look at giving black actors work as equivalent to blackface

Blackface wasn't just gauche or mean, it was an attempt to lock an entire race out of an art form.

And man Johnny Storm being played by literally any human being works fine because outside of this particular story being told by this particular author at this particular time his character is pretty much "get it? hot headed!"

It is too bad John Byrne is kind of old and dumb.

Christ he said "On his 'news' show"