the problem with making clanners drop in smaller numbers is that as soon as good IS players start trouncing bad clan players, people will cry.
I'm fine with this. This is the type of crying I can easily tune out, because I know it's just people complaining about losing.
e: And if you'd like, I can link you to some official forum threads with clan pilots whining that clan mechs are not BETTER ENOUGH for the price paid for them. People will complain about anything and everything, from every angle. The old adage goes something like "You know you're doing it right when everyone is angry".
the problem with making clanners drop in smaller numbers is that as soon as good IS players start trouncing bad clan players, people will cry.
I'm fine with this. This is the type of crying I can easily tune out, because I know it's just people complaining about losing.
e: And if you'd like, I can link you to some official forum threads with clan pilots whining that clan mechs are not BETTER ENOUGH for the price paid for them. People will complain about anything and everything, from every angle. The old adage goes something like "You know you're doing it right when everyone is angry".
Well duh, they paid hundreds of dollars for fake digital things in a game that could disappear at any moment. Of course they were expecting super mechs.
....
I'm regretting selling my Atlas K now, mostly because I want to drop in a Steiner scouting party (I.E. Shitton of atlases..atli?)
that already happens and people don't cry too much
anyway what are you guys favorite timberwolf fits? I have two that I like (one ERMla/LRM, the other ERPPC/ERSla), but I'm kinda at a loss as to what to do with my third one
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The IS heavies have always been the best IS brawlers; their assaults don't have flexible enough layouts to build truly brawly mechs. I feel like stalkers are too slow to make good brawlers, awesomes are too barn-door-like, battlemasters are too fragile for their size, and atlases/highlanders/victors don't have good hardpoint layouts for it. The assaults most definitely play a role, but it's been more of either a 'tank' role (atli and stalkers make excellent damage sponges, and they're great at drawing enemy fire), or specialist roles like snipers or LRM support.
IS heavies have a lot less armor than their assault brothers, so brawling has always been fairly dangerous in an IS mech. A heavy brawler going face to face with an Atlas has always been a dangerous game. A brawler can probably kill an atlas, but it will take so much time to drill through an atlas' armor that a brawler's going to have most of it's armor stripped by the time it's done. Going up against another brawler heavy (IS or otherwise) is a similarly bad idea. Someone's going to win, but their opponent is going to land a similar amount of damage. Picking off wounded mechs with your brawler or catching the enemy unaware has always been a better strategy than brawling face to face. There still isn't anything scarier than turning a corner into a cataphract, especially if you're already missing some armor. At the end of the day an Ilya or a Jager DD can be built with enough pinpoint brawl with ac5s or ac 20s that they can core out any mech they run into fast enough to survive, especially if they can get the jump on their target and get a few rounds into them before they can react.
One major advantage that clans have now is that the direwolf is a brawler assault. That's something that all pilots, IS or clan, are going to need to learn how to deal with. Running into a direwolf isn't any better for a timberwolf or a summoner than an IS heavy. The direwolf is stupid slow though, so yet again, if you can catch them from behind, you can core it out before it can even finish turning around.
Clan mechs can field more dps/ton than IS mechs of the same weight class, but that comes at a cost. Clan brawlers with ACs can't actuate their arms, clan SRM spread is wider than the IS version, and energy builds put out enough heat that they're toast if they over commit. The trick is to torso twist a bunch, and spread that clan dps over as much armor as possible.
You're not going to be brawling in a IS medium, but that's not new. Harassment has been IS medium's name of the game for as long as I've been playing. The hunchies hunch has always been a bit too vulnerable, the Wang's armis the same way. The phoenix mediums are too big for the amount of armor they have. I do feel like the nova and stormcrow might outclass IS mediums a bit too much right now; the IS mediums are due for a balance pass.
In other news:
12 flamers really should overheat an enemy mech faster. The flamer nova Nova works somewhat though, if you can get into a group brawl where you teammates will shoot the shutdown mech.
I don't know what your confusion is. If you want to assume perfectly equal pilot skill, and for some reason a one on one situation, yeah, the Clanner is gonna win. That's the point of the Clan mechs.
Some people are arguing that Clanners are balanced against the Sphere.
The lore of Battletech should be ignored in this case, because PGI went with the idea of having the mechs balanced for 12 v. 12, IS mixed with Clan. If they had lopsided teams that would perhaps be ok, but by keeping team numbers mixed and even, having a subset of mechs that are inherently better in most aspects is horrible game design. Given that currently you can only obtain them by dropping cash, that's pretty much the definition of pay2win, though that argument will fall away in several months when they are available for CBills. In that case they will just obsolete older mechs.
PGI (Russ I think) did mention several months ago that they would consider moving to 10 v. 12 or whatever if necessary, so perhaps things will be shaken up later, or perhaps balance passes will make things more even, but I just don't think that things are really that balanced as they currently stand.
...One major advantage that clans have now is that the direwolf is a brawler assault. ...
From the front, it is the Omega Brawler, the Ender of Mechs, and the Righteous Fist of Lord Dakka the Mighty.
From the sides and back, it is a giant, lumbering, vulnerable target.
As an opposing pilot, if you know where one is, you get to decide which role it occupies. That makes it not the greatest brawler ever.
FYI! Bryan let slip on Twitter today that the Clan LRM fix (for hitting things under 180 m) is not likely for this week's patch, instead coming out at the mid-month patch.
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
What's funny to me is that everyone is basically saying that "Inner Sphere and Clans mechs are totally balanced guys, buy you just gotta play your IS mechs differently to make up for the fact that Clanners are more powerful. :wtf:
Proper torso twisting is a skill that is desirable to all mechs. Trying to say that IS pilots just have to master torso twisting to make them balanced with Clan pilots, who are apparently mouth-breathing fools who never torso twist is not balancing the game. That's essentially saying, "hey, to get a fair fight you just got to play someone dumber than you..." lol...
Assuming equal pilot skill, Clan mechs are just (except for a few chassis) better. They are more survivable. They pack more weapons. They brawl better than you, and the argument that they aren't as good at jump sniping is questionable once you either account for a) a Clanner using a Gauss instead or b) the extra damage they get from being able to do things like field LRM's in addition to their pinpoint weapons.
The only thing that Clanners are lacking is speedy lights, and I suppose the Summoner is kind of unimpressive compared to the other Clan chassis. I just don't see how people are making the argument that IS and Clanners are balanced because Clanners are horrible players.
Clanners aren't more powerful. Proper torso twisting benefits all mechs, but in this case we're saying it is a requirement. That's different.
Clan jumpsniping is probably comparable, yeah, okay. Except, why are you doing that? You're giving the IS more help by not taking advantage of your added survivability.
And Clan heat managed straight up fucking sucks. That's why as an IS, torso twisting becomes paramount. If you can get them to hit their heat ceiling by spreading damage across you, congrats, you've about got yourself the kill.
I don't know what your confusion is. If you want to assume perfectly equal pilot skill, and for some reason a one on one situation, yeah, the Clanner is gonna win. That's the point of the Clan mechs. That's also you playing directly into the strength of the enemy mech. That isn't a sign of the Clan mech being straight up better, but the IS pilot being an utter moron. Let's try this in a less confusing way:
All those ability that are just a bonus before are now exceedingly important when combating Clans. You need to take advantage of them, and with back up.
"It's totally fair, guys; you just need to seriously outplay the guys with Clan 'mechs to stand a chance."
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I think if you're talking about two unskilled players clanners have the advantage, but with two skilled players they're on equal footing. A skilled player trumps an unskilled one regardless of clan/IS.
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I'll phrase things better then:
When playing before, did you rush headlong into 12 mechs combined fire over open terrain? If so (and you managed to somehow live), you will have to change your play style. If you appropriately advanced under cover to avoid LRM's and long range fire, you will have to do nothing differently. I pilot my mechs the exact same way I did before.
I think if you're talking about two unskilled players clanners have the advantage, but with two skilled players they're on equal footing.
OK. So if I'm in an IS 'mech and my opponent is in a Clan 'mech, and we are at equal skill levels, what is my path to victory? This is an honest question. What tactics do I utilize to beat the Clanner?
If the answer is "Be cautious, hide behind terrain, and exploit your superior alpha," then I don't want to waste time reinstalling the game, because that is how everybody played before the Clans hit and I wasn't interested it in it then. If that's the way I have to play against Clanners, and Clanners still make up 60-75% of the 'mechs in every match (do they? it looks like it based on scoreboard screenshots posted), then I am guaranteed to have to play that way most of the time, and I just don't give a shit about it.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Well, I disagree with anyone who says clan mechs aren't a touch better right now. They are, though I wouldn't call the difference insurmountable.
I just don't think the answer is making clan mechs 1 to 1 balanced with IS mechs, I think the answer it to correctly balance MM so that clan mechs are scarcity penalized correctly.
Well, I disagree with anyone who says (Cataphracts/Victors/ShadowHawks/Highlanders) aren't a touch better right now. They are, though I wouldn't call the difference insurmountable.
I just don't think the answer is making (insert weight class here) 1 to 1 balanced with (all other weight classes), I think the answer it to correctly balance MM so that (weight classes) are scarcity penalized correctly.
There, I just fixed 90% of the issues with balance regardless of faction.
Personally I'm fine with either Clans being "equal but different" or "better, but they get less members per team." Though the latter might be harder to balance...it would be more interesting though.
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I'll phrase things better then:
When playing before, did you rush headlong into 12 mechs combined fire over open terrain? If so (and you managed to somehow live), you will have to change your play style. If you appropriately advanced under cover to avoid LRM's and long range fire, you will have to do nothing differently. I pilot my mechs the exact same way I did before.
I want to have to change my play style. I want to play in a style that doesn't consist largely of standing in the blob trading long-range potshots and largely-inaccurate LRM salvos until one side's poptarts prove superior and the other side takes enough casualties that their line collapses. I'd like to play in a style that rewards initiative, aggression, and maneuvering, and skill at fighting up close.
It sounds like that style may actually be a possibility...in a Clan 'mech. If you're in an Inner Sphere 'mech and you try that, Clan 'mechs will tear your head off, assuming they have the chance before the IS poptarts tear your head off the same way they always did. And I don't want to pilot a Clan 'mech.
You know, if Clans were so fucking overpowered, I would have a much better win loss ratio right now.
Why? Are your matches heavy on Clanners for your team, heavy on IS for the other? What argument are you making, since teams are usually pretty mixed?
I don't solo drop. Since Clan Mechs came out, I have a .9 Win/Loss in my Dire Wolf, and a 1.8 Win/Loss in my Atlas. I average .8 more kills per match in the Atlas, and have done almost twice as much damage in 33% more games played.
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I'll phrase things better then:
When playing before, did you rush headlong into 12 mechs combined fire over open terrain? If so (and you managed to somehow live), you will have to change your play style. If you appropriately advanced under cover to avoid LRM's and long range fire, you will have to do nothing differently. I pilot my mechs the exact same way I did before.
I want to have to change my play style. I want to play in a style that doesn't consist largely of standing in the blob trading long-range potshots and largely-inaccurate LRM salvos until one side's poptarts prove superior and the other side takes enough casualties that their line collapses. I'd like to play in a style that rewards initiative, aggression, and maneuvering, and skill at fighting up close.
It sounds like that style may actually be a possibility...in a Clan 'mech. If you're in an Inner Sphere 'mech and you try that, Clan 'mechs will tear your head off, assuming they have the chance before the IS poptarts tear your head off the same way they always did. And I don't want to pilot a Clan 'mech.
For not having played the game in a while, you are making a lot of definitive statements that are contestable at best. I would very much recomend finding a time to play with some other Oosiks so you aren't wading through pubbies alone, and just try the game again.
I mean, fuck. @TOGSolid is playing and having fun. That should tell you something.
I think they did a good job of making the clans different and powerful without making them hugely superior compared to IS mechs. I realize that's the lore but unless they were gonna do something radical like introduce uneven matches the clan stuff needed to be on relatively equal footing. IS mediums took it in the pants again, because the clan mediums are faster and better armed than they are, but other than that they did pretty well.
There are really only a couple of really problematic clan mechs; the dire wolf is kinda silly because of how much firepower it can fit, and the timberwolf because it's good at everything
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I'll phrase things better then:
When playing before, did you rush headlong into 12 mechs combined fire over open terrain? If so (and you managed to somehow live), you will have to change your play style. If you appropriately advanced under cover to avoid LRM's and long range fire, you will have to do nothing differently. I pilot my mechs the exact same way I did before.
I want to have to change my play style. I want to play in a style that doesn't consist largely of standing in the blob trading long-range potshots and largely-inaccurate LRM salvos until one side's poptarts prove superior and the other side takes enough casualties that their line collapses. I'd like to play in a style that rewards initiative, aggression, and maneuvering, and skill at fighting up close.
It sounds like that style may actually be a possibility...in a Clan 'mech. If you're in an Inner Sphere 'mech and you try that, Clan 'mechs will tear your head off, assuming they have the chance before the IS poptarts tear your head off the same way they always did. And I don't want to pilot a Clan 'mech.
For not having played the game in a while, you are making a lot of definitive statements that are contestable at best. I would very much recomend finding a time to play with some other Oosiks so you aren't wading through pubbies alone, and just try the game again.
I mean, fuck. @TOGSolid is playing and having fun. That should tell you something.
I'm pretty sure Gaslight hates the idea of teaming up with other people
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I'll phrase things better then:
When playing before, did you rush headlong into 12 mechs combined fire over open terrain? If so (and you managed to somehow live), you will have to change your play style. If you appropriately advanced under cover to avoid LRM's and long range fire, you will have to do nothing differently. I pilot my mechs the exact same way I did before.
I want to have to change my play style. I want to play in a style that doesn't consist largely of standing in the blob trading long-range potshots and largely-inaccurate LRM salvos until one side's poptarts prove superior and the other side takes enough casualties that their line collapses. I'd like to play in a style that rewards initiative, aggression, and maneuvering, and skill at fighting up close.
It sounds like that style may actually be a possibility...in a Clan 'mech. If you're in an Inner Sphere 'mech and you try that, Clan 'mechs will tear your head off, assuming they have the chance before the IS poptarts tear your head off the same way they always did. And I don't want to pilot a Clan 'mech.
For not having played the game in a while, you are making a lot of definitive statements that are contestable at best. I would very much recomend finding a time to play with some other Oosiks so you aren't wading through pubbies alone, and just try the game again.
We have gone through this literally fifty times in these threads. As incomprehensible as it may be to some, I am not interested in playing in a group. If that's the prerequisite for having fun in the game, then I don't want to play the game, full stop. I like games I can pick up and put down and reliably enjoy on my schedule, not when other specific people are around who want to play with me.
I mean, fuck. @TOGSolid is playing and having fun. That should tell you something.
He plays and has fun in Clan 'mechs, unless I am much mistaken.
I think if you're talking about two unskilled players clanners have the advantage, but with two skilled players they're on equal footing.
OK. So if I'm in an IS 'mech and my opponent is in a Clan 'mech, and we are at equal skill levels, what is my path to victory? This is an honest question. What tactics do I utilize to beat the Clanner?
If the answer is "Be cautious, hide behind terrain, and exploit your superior alpha," then I don't want to waste time reinstalling the game, because that is how everybody played before the Clans hit and I wasn't interested it in it then. If that's the way I have to play against Clanners, and Clanners still make up 60-75% of the 'mechs in every match (do they? it looks like it based on scoreboard screenshots posted), then I am guaranteed to have to play that way most of the time, and I just don't give a shit about it.
Being cautions and hiding behind terrain and exploiting your strengths has always been the best strategy in MW, and I'm not talking about poptarts.
Running into the enemy team has always been a death sentence no matter what you're driving, and getting into a "fair fight" with a lone mech that can see you coming has always been inferior to jumping that same guy from behind. Hiding behind terrain is how you manage to be that heavy just-around-the-corner that blows that unsuspecting mech to teeny mech bits.
As for the alpha bit:
When we've been saying that torso twisting is more important when fighting clan mechs, what we really mean is that it's more effective. Even if you torso twist against my Ilya, all 3 of my uac/5 rounds are still going to end up in the same part. The goal of torso twisting in this case is the hope that I can't land my next 3 in the same place. If I'm good enough, and I practice some trigger discipline, I can make sure as many of my rounds end up in whatever part I want.
All clan mechs brawling weapons are damage over time (and damage over a long time. ERLL have a burn time of a full second and a half). If you torso twist there is zero chance that they're going to be able to land all that damage to a single part, and if you torso twist every time they fire (which is pretty easy, because the recycle time on their weapons is longer too), you can make sure they never get a full alpha into the part they want.
What's funny to me is that everyone is basically saying that "Inner Sphere and Clans mechs are totally balanced guys, buy you just gotta play your IS mechs differently to make up for the fact that Clanners are more powerful. :wtf:
Proper torso twisting is a skill that is desirable to all mechs. Trying to say that IS pilots just have to master torso twisting to make them balanced with Clan pilots, who are apparently mouth-breathing fools who never torso twist is not balancing the game. That's essentially saying, "hey, to get a fair fight you just got to play someone dumber than you..." lol...
Assuming equal pilot skill, Clan mechs are just (except for a few chassis) better. They are more survivable. They pack more weapons. They brawl better than you, and the argument that they aren't as good at jump sniping is questionable once you either account for a) a Clanner using a Gauss instead or b) the extra damage they get from being able to do things like field LRM's in addition to their pinpoint weapons.
The only thing that Clanners are lacking is speedy lights, and I suppose the Summoner is kind of unimpressive compared to the other Clan chassis. I just don't see how people are making the argument that IS and Clanners are balanced because Clanners are horrible players.
A lot of those comments are very general. For taking on clan mechs you really need to go on a mech-by-mech comparison between what you're piloting and what you're targeting. I don't play assaults, and I limit my heavies to Catapults so I can't help you there. But I do play a lot of mediums on the light (and popularly considered to be subpar) end of the spectrum such as centurions, hunchbacks, blackjacks, and cicadas. I can solo a timberwolf no problem because their firing arc is 110 degrees. You've got a lot of room to stay behind then and core out their rear CT. For novas, you just need to realize they're a glass cannon and they're often very exposed when they shoot. IS mechs with higher hardpoints (hunchbacks, blackjacks) can utilize the terrain a lot better than a nova or stormcrow, so I always use that to my advantage. Centurions can use the IS autocannons and still have arm servos.
Clan mechs are only more survivable if you aim for their side torsos. Generally their profiles have low slung weapons, high easily exposed STs and a big easy to hit from profile CT. That's the trade off they have for their increased firepower.
I mean, fuck. @TOGSolid is playing and having fun. That should tell you something.
He plays and has fun in Clan 'mechs, unless I am much mistaken.
He does not own any Clan mechs.
Edit: And, if you never ever want to group with people, then I would say that no, a multiplayer only shooter where communications and tactics are a massively important thing for success may not be the best game to continue to spend your time on. There is a pretty strong reason I refuse to play alone.
You know, if Clans were so fucking overpowered, I would have a much better win loss ratio right now.
Why? Are your matches heavy on Clanners for your team, heavy on IS for the other? What argument are you making, since teams are usually pretty mixed?
I don't solo drop. Since Clan Mechs came out, I have a .9 Win/Loss in my Dire Wolf, and a 1.8 Win/Loss in my Atlas. I average .8 more kills per match in the Atlas, and have done almost twice as much damage in 33% more games played.
I always wonder what stats are considered "normal," and what stats are considered "good." Since the stat reset I have an overall 1.6 W/L ratio and a 1.6 K/D ratio, though if I break it down by individual mechs I often get hilarious divergent results (I seem to have really good stats with a mech, or really bad stats with a mech, but not usually average, which I guess makes sense in a way because I either have six-kill games, or games where I die in the first three minutes with little damage ).
You mainly pilot assaults, right? So that Atlas is a DDC I'm assuming? I think I need to play a bit more before I could get a good sample size for my personal IS v. Clan stats.
You know, if Clans were so fucking overpowered, I would have a much better win loss ratio right now.
Why? Are your matches heavy on Clanners for your team, heavy on IS for the other? What argument are you making, since teams are usually pretty mixed?
I don't solo drop. Since Clan Mechs came out, I have a .9 Win/Loss in my Dire Wolf, and a 1.8 Win/Loss in my Atlas. I average .8 more kills per match in the Atlas, and have done almost twice as much damage in 33% more games played.
I always wonder what stats are considered "normal," and what stats are considered "good." Since the stat reset I have an overall 1.6 W/L ratio and a 1.6 K/D ratio, though if I break it down by individual mechs I often get hilarious divergent results (I seem to have really good stats with a mech, or really bad stats with a mech, but not usually average, which I guess makes sense in a way because I either have six-kill games, or games where I die in the first three minutes with little damage ).
You mainly pilot assaults, right? So that Atlas is a DDC I'm assuming? I think I need to play a bit more before I could get a good sample size for my personal IS v. Clan stats.
The Reaper is only spoken of in whispers
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I actually think the balance on a mech to mech basis is lore spot on right now. The clan mechs were never completely invincible, and could always be overwhelmed. They also valued individual combat much more at a societal level than the IS did, which manifested itself in the clan mechs being better individual fighting machines, but not having as much group cohesion and ability to bring focused withering fire as the IS units.
Basically, the way it plays right now (IS mechs setting up long range lines to try and slow the advance of the faster, better armed, clan mechs) is extremely lore correct. If they can just balance MM, we'll have a winner.
I actually think the balance on a mech to mech basis is lore spot on right now. The clan mechs were never completely invincible, and could always be overwhelmed. They also valued individual combat much more at a societal level than the IS did, which manifested itself in the clan mechs being better individual fighting machines, but not having as much group cohesion and ability to bring focused withering fire as the IS units.
Basically, the way it plays right now (IS mechs setting up long range lines to try and slow the advance of the faster, better armed, clan mechs) is extremely lore correct. If they can just balance MM, we'll have a winner.
Minus the fact that this is the opposite of what happens in-game, and you'll routintely get a Wolf group (3xDire 1xTimber) focus-fire everything in their path and steamroll. Not exactly lore correct.
Edit: And, if you never ever want to group with people, then I would say that no, a multiplayer only shooter where communications and tactics are a massively important thing for success may not be the best game to continue to spend your time on. There is a pretty strong reason I refuse to play alone.
I don't know if that's an opinion that I can really support. I think a solo guy should be able to play with the reasonably expectation that he will be put up against other solo guys, or at least that if his opponent has a four-man than his side should also have one. I imagine solo players vastly outweigh groups in most games.
Personally, I'm probably about 65%/35% solo/group. I like grouping more, but often I'm just on to play a game or two so I'd rather not bother with somebody having to invite me to just drop the next game or two, so I can feel where Gaslight is coming from.
Basically, the way it plays right now (IS mechs setting up long range lines to try and slow the advance of the faster, better armed, clan mechs) is extremely lore correct. If they can just balance MM, we'll have a winner.
I will say, that despite how many people deride the range game and favor brawling (myself included), it doesn't make sense just to charge in as your opening tactic. You're piloting what is often essentially mobile artillery pieces, so why wouldn't you try to minimize your risk by staying in cover as long as possible? Charging is usually a tactic that favors surprise or superior numbers. An equal sized force attacking an opponent entrenched in a castle almost always loses.
I like brawling, but I also tend to maintain range as long as I can until I gain an advantage.
I actually think the balance on a mech to mech basis is lore spot on right now. The clan mechs were never completely invincible, and could always be overwhelmed. They also valued individual combat much more at a societal level than the IS did, which manifested itself in the clan mechs being better individual fighting machines, but not having as much group cohesion and ability to bring focused withering fire as the IS units.
Basically, the way it plays right now (IS mechs setting up long range lines to try and slow the advance of the faster, better armed, clan mechs) is extremely lore correct. If they can just balance MM, we'll have a winner.
Minus the fact that this is the opposite of what happens in-game, and you'll routintely get a Wolf group (3xDire 1xTimber) focus-fire everything in their path and steamroll. Not exactly lore correct.
I see it happen in game all the time. "Look at that Dire Wolf toddle off alone and..oop, he's dead". I see it at least 50% of the games I see a Dire Wolf in.
Also, any group with a 3 DW in it is going to be easy pickings for faster mechs using hit and run. If IS pilots are putting themselves directly in front of that steam roller, they get what they deserve. Frankly, if I walk my Timber Wolf in front of a group of IS mechs consisting of 3 assaults and 1 heavy, I will die too. This is not a shocking revelation. Now walk that same ball of 3 DW and 1 TW in to a firing line of IS heavy and assault mechs. Half the lance will be cored before it crests the hill.
You can have fun dropping solo, but you do need to blob up. Frankly, teamwork is still the most powerful thing in this game and pubbies don't communicate very much or listen to one another very well. Blobing up is such a common and useful tactic because when the pubbies move as a group they can react to one-another without having to talk -- a sort of teamwork by proxy. If you're itching for more advanced tactics, you're really going to need to group drop with some oosiks.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
When I drop solo, I just got where the people are. It's rudimentary and sometimes infuriating, but at least you don't get caught out and isolated that way.
Of course they are better. Have you never played Battletech?
The problem isn't that clan mechs are lore correct and a bit better than IS mechs, the problem is that MM makes mixed IS and clan teams face other mixed IS and clan teams, rather than forcing battles where the clans natural weakness (numbers) is actually exploitable.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I'll phrase things better then:
When playing before, did you rush headlong into 12 mechs combined fire over open terrain? If so (and you managed to somehow live), you will have to change your play style. If you appropriately advanced under cover to avoid LRM's and long range fire, you will have to do nothing differently. I pilot my mechs the exact same way I did before.
I want to have to change my play style. I want to play in a style that doesn't consist largely of standing in the blob trading long-range potshots and largely-inaccurate LRM salvos until one side's poptarts prove superior and the other side takes enough casualties that their line collapses. I'd like to play in a style that rewards initiative, aggression, and maneuvering, and skill at fighting up close.
It sounds like that style may actually be a possibility...in a Clan 'mech. If you're in an Inner Sphere 'mech and you try that, Clan 'mechs will tear your head off, assuming they have the chance before the IS poptarts tear your head off the same way they always did. And I don't want to pilot a Clan 'mech.
The game DOES do that, and not just in Clan mechs. However, you cannot just run out and do that at the start of each round. Pretty much 90%, if not more, of all matches will be determined by how bad your pubbies are. Very rarely will you get a chance to channel your inner Kai Allard and one-shot every mech on the other team through their cockpits and solo-win the game. Mechwarrior has always been a team game. That does not mean you have to be part of a group to play, but you do have to play with your team as part of that team. If you get a smart group of players who know how to pick their spots, use tactics, advance under cover, etc. then you will be rewarded a win most likely. If you get a bunch of fucktards who want to sit in a corner of the map, jump sniping without watching flanks, capping points, and wanting to do nothing but increase their k/d ratio; then you're probably going to lose. Sorry to say it, and it's pretty much always been this way in these games as far back as I remember, but that fucktard category is the more populous one. One man/mech cannot solo-charge a lance/star of enemies and carry the day, unless you're really lucky that day. This is just the wrong game for that.
I am a tactics guy, which is one reason I have always liked these games, and you want to play tactically. I understand and commend that, but you're wanting to do that in open public games that use very little communication. Herding cats across an open field of catnip would probably be easier. Right now, in public games, communication pretty much means that a direction of visible targets is typed out and may be updated up until battle is fully engaged. Communication may resume during sweep/clean up to help coordinate the survivors, or by those who think others screwed up their chance to win (usually all while dead). In-game VoIP would help with the coordination, but many people simply turn it off due to the fact that there are too many others out there who get some kind of primal enjoyment for ruining others' play with their nonsensical rambling and noises. Not to mention the fact that you always get those two or three people in a round who think they are the next Napoleon, or whatever other leader you wish to compare, and want to lead the team to victory. Only to find that running out into the open and camping 12 mechs behind one rock probably isn't the best course of action.
Being successful in mechwarrior, no matter what tech you may be driving, is about being patient, seeing an opportunity, and taking it. Being patient does not mean camping one spot, but it does mean not running out in the open or trying to solo flank 10 mechs and expecting to live. When my group was playing in MW4 and Mercs we went by the "1 Move" rule. Essentially, your team builds a strategy for a round and at the start you implement it. Of course, no plan survives completely after contact with the enemy, so you have a decision to make. "What do you do now?" That decision determines the round. Should you go left, right, center, retreat, advance at full charge, etc; you must make that call. If it's the wrong call, you lose. Very rarely do you get to make a wrong decision and win. Very rarely do you get the chance to make a second flank, a second retreat, etc. before your team is either overwhelmed, picked apart to bare essentials, or you yourself are a blackened crater on the field.
Basically, your first move sets the game. After that, it's up to your team to win, and pubbies are usually horrible. Good luck.
+4
tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
I drop solo most of the time in a variety of mechs. If there are Oosiks on at the same time, I may or may not group with them, but it certainly doesn't feel like a requirement that I do so in order to have fun.
If you want to know the difference between Clan mechs and IS mechs, it primarily has to do with greater range and damage at the cost of heat and time. If you stand still or charge directly at a Clan mech, your experience as a brawler will be nasty, brutish, and short, but twisting to spread the damage will give you better overall survivability than if you tried charging an IS line. I'm not really sure how to react to the implication that brawlers should be able to get into their preferred range band without using cover or flanking to do so.
When we've been saying that torso twisting is more important when fighting clan mechs, what we really mean is that it's more effective. Even if you torso twist against my Ilya, all 3 of my uac/5 rounds are still going to end up in the same part. The goal of torso twisting in this case is the hope that I can't land my next 3 in the same place. If I'm good enough, and I practice some trigger discipline, I can make sure as many of my rounds end up in whatever part I want.
All clan mechs brawling weapons are damage over time (and damage over a long time. ERLL have a burn time of a full second and a half). If you torso twist there is zero chance that they're going to be able to land all that damage to a single part, and if you torso twist every time they fire (which is pretty easy, because the recycle time on their weapons is longer too), you can make sure they never get a full alpha into the part they want.
This is absolutely correct. I have had very very good success again in my DDC Reaper against clan mechs. My alpha strike packs a serious punch with SRM's fixed again and I have maxxed armor to rotate their burst fire weapons all over my torso. They can only stop me with long range or superior numbers. I mow down their lights and mediums, they aren't fast enough to evade my fire like IS mechs are.
One thing everyone's gonna have to/will learn is to torso twist long range clan attacks too. A lot of those longer ranged strikes from clans are still using lasers/clan acs, and torso twisting will still spread the damage around. We're all so used to longer ranged attacks being from IS ac5/ppc fire that we don't instinctively twist away from it.
I will say the fact that the Kit Fox gets 3x AMS AND ECM is kind of silly. Watching the triple AMS go to town on a LRM salvo is great, though, and makes me wish we got credit for shooting down missiles.
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I'm fine with this. This is the type of crying I can easily tune out, because I know it's just people complaining about losing.
e: And if you'd like, I can link you to some official forum threads with clan pilots whining that clan mechs are not BETTER ENOUGH for the price paid for them. People will complain about anything and everything, from every angle. The old adage goes something like "You know you're doing it right when everyone is angry".
Well duh, they paid hundreds of dollars for fake digital things in a game that could disappear at any moment. Of course they were expecting super mechs.
....
I'm regretting selling my Atlas K now, mostly because I want to drop in a Steiner scouting party (I.E. Shitton of atlases..atli?)
anyway what are you guys favorite timberwolf fits? I have two that I like (one ERMla/LRM, the other ERPPC/ERSla), but I'm kinda at a loss as to what to do with my third one
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The IS heavies have always been the best IS brawlers; their assaults don't have flexible enough layouts to build truly brawly mechs. I feel like stalkers are too slow to make good brawlers, awesomes are too barn-door-like, battlemasters are too fragile for their size, and atlases/highlanders/victors don't have good hardpoint layouts for it. The assaults most definitely play a role, but it's been more of either a 'tank' role (atli and stalkers make excellent damage sponges, and they're great at drawing enemy fire), or specialist roles like snipers or LRM support.
IS heavies have a lot less armor than their assault brothers, so brawling has always been fairly dangerous in an IS mech. A heavy brawler going face to face with an Atlas has always been a dangerous game. A brawler can probably kill an atlas, but it will take so much time to drill through an atlas' armor that a brawler's going to have most of it's armor stripped by the time it's done. Going up against another brawler heavy (IS or otherwise) is a similarly bad idea. Someone's going to win, but their opponent is going to land a similar amount of damage. Picking off wounded mechs with your brawler or catching the enemy unaware has always been a better strategy than brawling face to face. There still isn't anything scarier than turning a corner into a cataphract, especially if you're already missing some armor. At the end of the day an Ilya or a Jager DD can be built with enough pinpoint brawl with ac5s or ac 20s that they can core out any mech they run into fast enough to survive, especially if they can get the jump on their target and get a few rounds into them before they can react.
One major advantage that clans have now is that the direwolf is a brawler assault. That's something that all pilots, IS or clan, are going to need to learn how to deal with. Running into a direwolf isn't any better for a timberwolf or a summoner than an IS heavy. The direwolf is stupid slow though, so yet again, if you can catch them from behind, you can core it out before it can even finish turning around.
Clan mechs can field more dps/ton than IS mechs of the same weight class, but that comes at a cost. Clan brawlers with ACs can't actuate their arms, clan SRM spread is wider than the IS version, and energy builds put out enough heat that they're toast if they over commit. The trick is to torso twist a bunch, and spread that clan dps over as much armor as possible.
You're not going to be brawling in a IS medium, but that's not new. Harassment has been IS medium's name of the game for as long as I've been playing. The hunchies hunch has always been a bit too vulnerable, the Wang's armis the same way. The phoenix mediums are too big for the amount of armor they have. I do feel like the nova and stormcrow might outclass IS mediums a bit too much right now; the IS mediums are due for a balance pass.
In other news:
12 flamers really should overheat an enemy mech faster. The flamer nova Nova works somewhat though, if you can get into a group brawl where you teammates will shoot the shutdown mech.
Some people are arguing that Clanners are balanced against the Sphere.
The lore of Battletech should be ignored in this case, because PGI went with the idea of having the mechs balanced for 12 v. 12, IS mixed with Clan. If they had lopsided teams that would perhaps be ok, but by keeping team numbers mixed and even, having a subset of mechs that are inherently better in most aspects is horrible game design. Given that currently you can only obtain them by dropping cash, that's pretty much the definition of pay2win, though that argument will fall away in several months when they are available for CBills. In that case they will just obsolete older mechs.
PGI (Russ I think) did mention several months ago that they would consider moving to 10 v. 12 or whatever if necessary, so perhaps things will be shaken up later, or perhaps balance passes will make things more even, but I just don't think that things are really that balanced as they currently stand.
Nintendo Network ID: imperialparadox | 3DS FC: 2294-4029-6793
XBL Gamertag: Paradox3351 | PSN: imperialparadox
From the front, it is the Omega Brawler, the Ender of Mechs, and the Righteous Fist of Lord Dakka the Mighty.
From the sides and back, it is a giant, lumbering, vulnerable target.
As an opposing pilot, if you know where one is, you get to decide which role it occupies. That makes it not the greatest brawler ever.
FYI! Bryan let slip on Twitter today that the Clan LRM fix (for hitting things under 180 m) is not likely for this week's patch, instead coming out at the mid-month patch.
Exactly this.
Clan tech is absolutely better. Exactly how much better is up for debate, but any argument which takes the form of "The Clans aren't better, the IS player just has to work harder/be smarter/play a specific way" boils down to an admission that the Clans are better. The player who has to work harder/be smarter/restrict his play style to a certain specific set of tactics just to compete is on an inferior footing, whatever the game we're talking about is.
And the Clans should be better and need to be better, to some extent. It's only lore-appropriate. The Clans would be a disappointment to everybody if they were no better than what we had at all.
The problem is the complete absence of any effort or creativity put into game design to offset that superiority and make things more interesting. There's any number of things that could have been done with asymmetrical game modes, rules of engagement enforced through reward payouts, limited rollout of Clan tech, special events with Clan tech, etc. But instead we just get the Clan 'mechs dumped into the existing dressed-up-deathmatch game modes, mixed with the Inner Sphere 'mechs willy-nilly.
With the apparent result that the extremely tedious and cheesy meta which dominated before the Clan rollout is only more of a requirement and becomes more rewarding for those skilled at it, while those less skilled at it flounder, and people who hoped that the Clan rollout would shake up that meta and allow more dynamic, aggressive, brawling gameplay find that's still impossible unless they choose to pilot a Clan 'mech - which at this point requires real money or a good deal of grinding, and just isn't appealing at all to those of us who were never interested in Clan 'mechs to begin with.
Are you ACTUALLY playing the game right now, or are you just going by what people in the thread are saying?
Going by what people in the thread are saying; that's why I phrased things in terms like "the APPARENT result." I have been monitoring the thread to see if the recent and near-future patches make enough positive improvement to gameplay to make me want to get in to MWO again, as most people here seem to be pretty decent at the game and have intelligent opinions about it. What I'm getting is that unless I want to pilot a Clan 'mech or get really good at the alpha sniping style that made me quit before, I probably won't enjoy things any more now.
I think if you're talking about two unskilled players clanners have the advantage, but with two skilled players they're on equal footing. A skilled player trumps an unskilled one regardless of clan/IS.
I'll phrase things better then:
When playing before, did you rush headlong into 12 mechs combined fire over open terrain? If so (and you managed to somehow live), you will have to change your play style. If you appropriately advanced under cover to avoid LRM's and long range fire, you will have to do nothing differently. I pilot my mechs the exact same way I did before.
Why? Are your matches heavy on Clanners for your team, heavy on IS for the other? What argument are you making, since teams are usually pretty mixed?
Nintendo Network ID: imperialparadox | 3DS FC: 2294-4029-6793
XBL Gamertag: Paradox3351 | PSN: imperialparadox
OK. So if I'm in an IS 'mech and my opponent is in a Clan 'mech, and we are at equal skill levels, what is my path to victory? This is an honest question. What tactics do I utilize to beat the Clanner?
If the answer is "Be cautious, hide behind terrain, and exploit your superior alpha," then I don't want to waste time reinstalling the game, because that is how everybody played before the Clans hit and I wasn't interested it in it then. If that's the way I have to play against Clanners, and Clanners still make up 60-75% of the 'mechs in every match (do they? it looks like it based on scoreboard screenshots posted), then I am guaranteed to have to play that way most of the time, and I just don't give a shit about it.
I just don't think the answer is making clan mechs 1 to 1 balanced with IS mechs, I think the answer it to correctly balance MM so that clan mechs are scarcity penalized correctly.
There, I just fixed 90% of the issues with balance regardless of faction.
Nintendo Network ID: imperialparadox | 3DS FC: 2294-4029-6793
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I want to have to change my play style. I want to play in a style that doesn't consist largely of standing in the blob trading long-range potshots and largely-inaccurate LRM salvos until one side's poptarts prove superior and the other side takes enough casualties that their line collapses. I'd like to play in a style that rewards initiative, aggression, and maneuvering, and skill at fighting up close.
It sounds like that style may actually be a possibility...in a Clan 'mech. If you're in an Inner Sphere 'mech and you try that, Clan 'mechs will tear your head off, assuming they have the chance before the IS poptarts tear your head off the same way they always did. And I don't want to pilot a Clan 'mech.
I don't solo drop. Since Clan Mechs came out, I have a .9 Win/Loss in my Dire Wolf, and a 1.8 Win/Loss in my Atlas. I average .8 more kills per match in the Atlas, and have done almost twice as much damage in 33% more games played.
For not having played the game in a while, you are making a lot of definitive statements that are contestable at best. I would very much recomend finding a time to play with some other Oosiks so you aren't wading through pubbies alone, and just try the game again.
I mean, fuck. @TOGSolid is playing and having fun. That should tell you something.
There are really only a couple of really problematic clan mechs; the dire wolf is kinda silly because of how much firepower it can fit, and the timberwolf because it's good at everything
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I'm pretty sure Gaslight hates the idea of teaming up with other people
We have gone through this literally fifty times in these threads. As incomprehensible as it may be to some, I am not interested in playing in a group. If that's the prerequisite for having fun in the game, then I don't want to play the game, full stop. I like games I can pick up and put down and reliably enjoy on my schedule, not when other specific people are around who want to play with me.
He plays and has fun in Clan 'mechs, unless I am much mistaken.
Being cautions and hiding behind terrain and exploiting your strengths has always been the best strategy in MW, and I'm not talking about poptarts.
Running into the enemy team has always been a death sentence no matter what you're driving, and getting into a "fair fight" with a lone mech that can see you coming has always been inferior to jumping that same guy from behind. Hiding behind terrain is how you manage to be that heavy just-around-the-corner that blows that unsuspecting mech to teeny mech bits.
As for the alpha bit:
When we've been saying that torso twisting is more important when fighting clan mechs, what we really mean is that it's more effective. Even if you torso twist against my Ilya, all 3 of my uac/5 rounds are still going to end up in the same part. The goal of torso twisting in this case is the hope that I can't land my next 3 in the same place. If I'm good enough, and I practice some trigger discipline, I can make sure as many of my rounds end up in whatever part I want.
All clan mechs brawling weapons are damage over time (and damage over a long time. ERLL have a burn time of a full second and a half). If you torso twist there is zero chance that they're going to be able to land all that damage to a single part, and if you torso twist every time they fire (which is pretty easy, because the recycle time on their weapons is longer too), you can make sure they never get a full alpha into the part they want.
A lot of those comments are very general. For taking on clan mechs you really need to go on a mech-by-mech comparison between what you're piloting and what you're targeting. I don't play assaults, and I limit my heavies to Catapults so I can't help you there. But I do play a lot of mediums on the light (and popularly considered to be subpar) end of the spectrum such as centurions, hunchbacks, blackjacks, and cicadas. I can solo a timberwolf no problem because their firing arc is 110 degrees. You've got a lot of room to stay behind then and core out their rear CT. For novas, you just need to realize they're a glass cannon and they're often very exposed when they shoot. IS mechs with higher hardpoints (hunchbacks, blackjacks) can utilize the terrain a lot better than a nova or stormcrow, so I always use that to my advantage. Centurions can use the IS autocannons and still have arm servos.
Clan mechs are only more survivable if you aim for their side torsos. Generally their profiles have low slung weapons, high easily exposed STs and a big easy to hit from profile CT. That's the trade off they have for their increased firepower.
He does not own any Clan mechs.
Edit: And, if you never ever want to group with people, then I would say that no, a multiplayer only shooter where communications and tactics are a massively important thing for success may not be the best game to continue to spend your time on. There is a pretty strong reason I refuse to play alone.
I always wonder what stats are considered "normal," and what stats are considered "good." Since the stat reset I have an overall 1.6 W/L ratio and a 1.6 K/D ratio, though if I break it down by individual mechs I often get hilarious divergent results (I seem to have really good stats with a mech, or really bad stats with a mech, but not usually average, which I guess makes sense in a way because I either have six-kill games, or games where I die in the first three minutes with little damage
You mainly pilot assaults, right? So that Atlas is a DDC I'm assuming? I think I need to play a bit more before I could get a good sample size for my personal IS v. Clan stats.
Nintendo Network ID: imperialparadox | 3DS FC: 2294-4029-6793
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The Reaper is only spoken of in whispers
Basically, the way it plays right now (IS mechs setting up long range lines to try and slow the advance of the faster, better armed, clan mechs) is extremely lore correct. If they can just balance MM, we'll have a winner.
Minus the fact that this is the opposite of what happens in-game, and you'll routintely get a Wolf group (3xDire 1xTimber) focus-fire everything in their path and steamroll. Not exactly lore correct.
I don't know if that's an opinion that I can really support. I think a solo guy should be able to play with the reasonably expectation that he will be put up against other solo guys, or at least that if his opponent has a four-man than his side should also have one. I imagine solo players vastly outweigh groups in most games.
Personally, I'm probably about 65%/35% solo/group. I like grouping more, but often I'm just on to play a game or two so I'd rather not bother with somebody having to invite me to just drop the next game or two, so I can feel where Gaslight is coming from.
I will say, that despite how many people deride the range game and favor brawling (myself included), it doesn't make sense just to charge in as your opening tactic. You're piloting what is often essentially mobile artillery pieces, so why wouldn't you try to minimize your risk by staying in cover as long as possible? Charging is usually a tactic that favors surprise or superior numbers. An equal sized force attacking an opponent entrenched in a castle almost always loses.
I like brawling, but I also tend to maintain range as long as I can until I gain an advantage.
Nintendo Network ID: imperialparadox | 3DS FC: 2294-4029-6793
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I see it happen in game all the time. "Look at that Dire Wolf toddle off alone and..oop, he's dead". I see it at least 50% of the games I see a Dire Wolf in.
Also, any group with a 3 DW in it is going to be easy pickings for faster mechs using hit and run. If IS pilots are putting themselves directly in front of that steam roller, they get what they deserve. Frankly, if I walk my Timber Wolf in front of a group of IS mechs consisting of 3 assaults and 1 heavy, I will die too. This is not a shocking revelation. Now walk that same ball of 3 DW and 1 TW in to a firing line of IS heavy and assault mechs. Half the lance will be cored before it crests the hill.
You can have fun dropping solo, but you do need to blob up. Frankly, teamwork is still the most powerful thing in this game and pubbies don't communicate very much or listen to one another very well. Blobing up is such a common and useful tactic because when the pubbies move as a group they can react to one-another without having to talk -- a sort of teamwork by proxy. If you're itching for more advanced tactics, you're really going to need to group drop with some oosiks.
The game DOES do that, and not just in Clan mechs. However, you cannot just run out and do that at the start of each round. Pretty much 90%, if not more, of all matches will be determined by how bad your pubbies are. Very rarely will you get a chance to channel your inner Kai Allard and one-shot every mech on the other team through their cockpits and solo-win the game. Mechwarrior has always been a team game. That does not mean you have to be part of a group to play, but you do have to play with your team as part of that team. If you get a smart group of players who know how to pick their spots, use tactics, advance under cover, etc. then you will be rewarded a win most likely. If you get a bunch of fucktards who want to sit in a corner of the map, jump sniping without watching flanks, capping points, and wanting to do nothing but increase their k/d ratio; then you're probably going to lose. Sorry to say it, and it's pretty much always been this way in these games as far back as I remember, but that fucktard category is the more populous one. One man/mech cannot solo-charge a lance/star of enemies and carry the day, unless you're really lucky that day. This is just the wrong game for that.
I am a tactics guy, which is one reason I have always liked these games, and you want to play tactically. I understand and commend that, but you're wanting to do that in open public games that use very little communication. Herding cats across an open field of catnip would probably be easier. Right now, in public games, communication pretty much means that a direction of visible targets is typed out and may be updated up until battle is fully engaged. Communication may resume during sweep/clean up to help coordinate the survivors, or by those who think others screwed up their chance to win (usually all while dead). In-game VoIP would help with the coordination, but many people simply turn it off due to the fact that there are too many others out there who get some kind of primal enjoyment for ruining others' play with their nonsensical rambling and noises. Not to mention the fact that you always get those two or three people in a round who think they are the next Napoleon, or whatever other leader you wish to compare, and want to lead the team to victory. Only to find that running out into the open and camping 12 mechs behind one rock probably isn't the best course of action.
Being successful in mechwarrior, no matter what tech you may be driving, is about being patient, seeing an opportunity, and taking it. Being patient does not mean camping one spot, but it does mean not running out in the open or trying to solo flank 10 mechs and expecting to live. When my group was playing in MW4 and Mercs we went by the "1 Move" rule. Essentially, your team builds a strategy for a round and at the start you implement it. Of course, no plan survives completely after contact with the enemy, so you have a decision to make. "What do you do now?" That decision determines the round. Should you go left, right, center, retreat, advance at full charge, etc; you must make that call. If it's the wrong call, you lose. Very rarely do you get to make a wrong decision and win. Very rarely do you get the chance to make a second flank, a second retreat, etc. before your team is either overwhelmed, picked apart to bare essentials, or you yourself are a blackened crater on the field.
Basically, your first move sets the game. After that, it's up to your team to win, and pubbies are usually horrible. Good luck.
If you want to know the difference between Clan mechs and IS mechs, it primarily has to do with greater range and damage at the cost of heat and time. If you stand still or charge directly at a Clan mech, your experience as a brawler will be nasty, brutish, and short, but twisting to spread the damage will give you better overall survivability than if you tried charging an IS line. I'm not really sure how to react to the implication that brawlers should be able to get into their preferred range band without using cover or flanking to do so.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
This is absolutely correct. I have had very very good success again in my DDC Reaper against clan mechs. My alpha strike packs a serious punch with SRM's fixed again and I have maxxed armor to rotate their burst fire weapons all over my torso. They can only stop me with long range or superior numbers. I mow down their lights and mediums, they aren't fast enough to evade my fire like IS mechs are.