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Uh, actually, since Greyhawk was intentionally created to be a facsimile of Middle Earth, I'm going to say that it is probably the most uncreative setting.
yep. the thing is, 40k isn't really designed for 400 point battles, it's designed for massive 1500-2000 point encounters. it's pretty clear to me that GW designed their games with larger sized battles in mind, since the rules for 40k as well as FB don't really have the depth that make skirmish-level games compelling for me (ie. rules for hitting individual soldiers on specific parts of their body, rather than saving that sort of rule for larger targets like tanks and dreadnoughts)
of course, things like mordheim and necromunda obviously accomplish this very well.. but we're not talking about those two games, we're talking about 40K/FB. and you can't really argue that what tactics/strategy exist in those systems only REALLY shine through when you're playing larger battles, of at least 1000 points.
don't get me wrong, i can see the appeal of huge squads of gun/sword wielding dudes fighting other huge squads of gun/sword wielding dudes, and i have enjoyed the handful of FB games i've played with my friend's skaven army..
but i just happen to prefer a system more geared towards smaller games. this might just be because i am incapable of not spending a massive amount of time on each individual model, and confrontation's scale just so happens to suit this better. i don't think i could comprimise the quality of my painting just to pump out a few squads of fire warriors/guardsmen/etcetc, assembly-line style.
like i said in an earlier post, rackham is more geared towards artists than wargamers.. it just so happens that the rules system behind their models are just as good as the sculpts themselves.
Isn't that the one created for a contest and is now used in DDO? I wouldn't have noticed; it's different yet it looks the same.
If I hadn't read about the differences in D&D settings you couldn't convince me there was more than one, even then they all sort of sound like house rules to me. V:|V
Actually, I always thought that it just seemed like the dude read Perdido Street Station by CHina Mieville and then changed some names and made D&D adjustments.
I have never read that.
So I dunno, I think it's pretty cool.
While I agree that Forgotten Realms isn't exactly Planescape in terms of originality, I've always liked it simply because it's so incredibly fleshed out. You can't judge the value of a campaign setting based on the novels that spin out of it. Most of those books are so horribly fan-fictiony that they read like someone is transcribing their campaigns. (And in a few cases, I know that this is exactly what happened.)
Granted, Greyhawk is pretty clearly influenced by Tolkien, it also has a big spoonful of Swords and Sorcery style influences that I've always love (Lovecraft, Howard, Lieber). It also was never designed to be sold and marketed like FR was; it was just a comglomeration of the homebrew worlds that Arneson, Gygax and Co. used.
How can you say that about Ebberon when you're a fan of Forgotten Realms.
I suppose I can see that. It's always bothered me that FR is so damn busy though. There's no sense of cohesiveness between all the earthshattering events that constantly seem to be going on (most of which mysteriously shatter no earth).
I think I like the simple yet deep mysteries of Greyhawk a lot better. You've got Iuz, you've got Vecna, a couple of ancient empires that destroyed each other, and you've got hundreds of locales and stories. The place just oozes character, not plot. And that's what I like in a setting. A setting. Not a storyline to plug into.
Edit: The very first time I played D&D it was with a full set of first edition books I bought off of usenet for $10. My brother in law had a copy of Ravenloft sitting around, and I bugged him enough to get him to play with me. It was awesome, even if we never really finished. I like RPGs, but I want to play them with friends. None of my friends played, so I never really got into them that much. I spent hours and hours reading the source material though. Anything I could get my hands on.
seriously, I can't stand FR and its blandness
I think he may be talking about Perdido Street Station.
I'd argue with that, but the book isn't a fast paced adventure fantasy. It's postmodern literature wearing steampunk clothing. And I love it.
I don't think you guys know what "bland" means.
I don't see the attraction in any of the shelf settings. Why use someone else's when you can make your own?
forget you
Ha. You just listed the reasons for why I prefer FR over Greyhawk.
Hi-Larious.
I love that FR feels like a real living world. All the stories and mythology just make me feel like I'm playing a great campaign, even when the DM sucks ass.
Don't get me wrong, I've still got wicked love for Greyhawk, I just also have a lot of love for FR.
I've always wanted to play a Dragonlance campaign, but I've never gotten to. Everyone who does play it raves about it though.
Yes, it's essentially a series of events that usually don't change the world in any meaningful way, and a bunch of generic one dimensional characters.
What's deep about every third NPC being a god of some sort and a world where everyone has magic items falling out of their butts? FR drips with magic, and I find it distasteful. I've always been of the opinion that magic should inspire awe and be feared. In the very few games I've ever played, wizards are just as likely to be burned at the stake as rewarded for their magical derring do. That's the way it should be.
(I think my favorite game that I ever designed (though never got around to running) was an all-dwarf adventure that took place on a world where the sun didn't rise one day. A hundred years later... well, let's just say that it was really really cold and a trip to the surface was rather interesting.)
Reading a couple of Dragonlance books from my local library are what got me started with RPGs and most fantasy in general. As shitty as some of those books are, they'll always have a special place in my childhood memories. I'm just glad the next thing I picked up was Conan novels by R.E. Howard. If I had picked up something ghost-written for Piers Anthony, I probably wouldn't love fantasy the way I do today.
What the fuck? What does this have to do with running a game, with using the setting? You make your own events and the players make their own characters. What the hell, it's not like your party has to be made up of Drizzt, Kelben Blackstaff, Elminster, and Halaster fucking Blackcloak.
Fucking duh, but what is interesting about the setting then? It just turns into more generic fantasy tripe, which is what forgotten realms is at it's very core.
A good setting should have interesting characters for the party to meet, and interesting places for them to explore. I find nothing in Forgotten Realms interesting at all.
I guess it really just comes down to taste.
My complaint is the exact opposite actually. There are too many damn uber NPCs running around doing shit. There's no room to play and make your own stuff in FR.
This is also retarded! YOU ARE THE DM, YOU HAVE ABSOLUTE AND FINAL CONTROL OVER ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN YOUR GAME!
This is a basic concept of gaming that I should not have to explain!
No, what it comes down to is that you can't come up with any of your own shit and have to be spoonfed a bunch of events and characters to go along with.
Okay, I'm with you on this one. I am so tired of sewers.
Shorty's pretty much hit the nail on the head here.
If you're playing FR and all you do is hit unstoppable one-dimensional uber-npcs, your DM is an unimaginative dickhead.