So most likely scenario is that the russians gave some serious hardware to some untrained randoms who started indiscriminately shooting down airplanes over a series of days until they managed to hit an airliner? Talk about the mother of all fuckups...
I think it's more likely they "acquired" some Ukrainian equipment.
So most likely scenario is that the russians gave some serious hardware to some untrained randoms who started indiscriminately shooting down airplanes over a series of days until they managed to hit an airliner? Talk about the mother of all fuckups...
To be fair, the random fuckups may have received some training. It's also possible the random fuckups captured the hardware on their own...no idea if Ukraine lost any of these missile systems, but they did have some in inventory.
Anyone trained on SAMs here? I assume that your need a bit of training even to do a bad job of handling one
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Anyone trained on SAMs here? I assume that your need a bit of training even to do a bad job of handling one
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Yeah I've Never used a SAM, but I've used other military rocket/missile systems and you can probably get the basic hang of it in a few hours.
Anyone trained on SAMs here? I assume that your need a bit of training even to do a bad job of handling one
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Yeah I've Never used a SAM, but I've used other military rocket/missile systems and you can probably get the basic hang of it in a few hours.
Military hardware tends to be designed for the lowest common denominator. Idiot proof, intuitive, etc. You want to sell that hardware all over the world, in lots of cases to militaries that are full of illiterate, uneducated, and barely trained conscripts.
In a lot of cases, you can operate hardware just by following basic pictograms. This is probably a bit more advanced than that, but certainly not something that would be insurmountable. We're also assuming that the rebels are untrained - even if they aren't just regular Russian troops with insignias removed, a lot of the rebels are former military - either veterans or Ukrainian troops that defected.
Anyone trained on SAMs here? I assume that your need a bit of training even to do a bad job of handling one
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Yeah I've Never used a SAM, but I've used other military rocket/missile systems and you can probably get the basic hang of it in a few hours.
Military hardware tends to be designed for the lowest common denominator. Idiot proof, intuitive, etc. You want to sell that hardware all over the world, in lots of cases to militaries that are full of illiterate, uneducated, and barely trained conscripts.
In a lot of cases, you can operate hardware just by following basic pictograms. This is probably a bit more advanced than that, but certainly not something that would be insurmountable. We're also assuming that the rebels are untrained - even if they aren't just regular Russian troops with insignias removed, a lot of the rebels are former military - either veterans or Ukrainian troops that defected.
no one designs military hardware for the sole purpose of selling it to other countries, that's utter nonsense. they design it to use for themselves and then sell it to other allied countries so that they can recoup some money after they have gotten all the use out of it that they can.
Anyone trained on SAMs here? I assume that your need a bit of training even to do a bad job of handling one
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Yeah I've Never used a SAM, but I've used other military rocket/missile systems and you can probably get the basic hang of it in a few hours.
Military hardware tends to be designed for the lowest common denominator. Idiot proof, intuitive, etc. You want to sell that hardware all over the world, in lots of cases to militaries that are full of illiterate, uneducated, and barely trained conscripts.
In a lot of cases, you can operate hardware just by following basic pictograms. This is probably a bit more advanced than that, but certainly not something that would be insurmountable. We're also assuming that the rebels are untrained - even if they aren't just regular Russian troops with insignias removed, a lot of the rebels are former military - either veterans or Ukrainian troops that defected.
Yeah. I obviously don't know about Russian stuff, but once you get PATRIOT turned on, it is literally point and shoot.
Anyone trained on SAMs here? I assume that your need a bit of training even to do a bad job of handling one
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Yeah I've Never used a SAM, but I've used other military rocket/missile systems and you can probably get the basic hang of it in a few hours.
Military hardware tends to be designed for the lowest common denominator. Idiot proof, intuitive, etc. You want to sell that hardware all over the world, in lots of cases to militaries that are full of illiterate, uneducated, and barely trained conscripts.
In a lot of cases, you can operate hardware just by following basic pictograms. This is probably a bit more advanced than that, but certainly not something that would be insurmountable. We're also assuming that the rebels are untrained - even if they aren't just regular Russian troops with insignias removed, a lot of the rebels are former military - either veterans or Ukrainian troops that defected.
no one designs military hardware for the sole purpose of selling it to other countries, that's utter nonsense. they design it to use for themselves and then sell it to other allied countries so that they can recoup some money after they have gotten all the use out of it that they can.
Didn't say it was designed solely for export. There are a few examples of hardware designed for export (especially Soviet era equipment) but it's more the exception as a way of recouping development money like you said.
Regardless, barring highly technical equipment, most equipment is designed for the lowest common denominator. That includes the Gomer Pyles in your own forces.
I would think that most of the training that goes into operators of such equipment is along the lines of "This is what a fighter plane looks like. Shoot this. This is what a commercial airliner looks like. Don't shoot this.
I would think that most of the training that goes into operators of such equipment is along the lines of "This is what a fighter plane looks like. Shoot this. This is what a commercial airliner looks like. Don't shoot this.
It's... not that simple as I understand it, at least with the Buk system.
From what I've heard it either displays a fuzzy green dot for not-fighter jet, and a smaller fuzzy green dot for fighter jet.
Anyone trained on SAMs here? I assume that your need a bit of training even to do a bad job of handling one
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Yeah I've Never used a SAM, but I've used other military rocket/missile systems and you can probably get the basic hang of it in a few hours.
Military hardware tends to be designed for the lowest common denominator. Idiot proof, intuitive, etc. You want to sell that hardware all over the world, in lots of cases to militaries that are full of illiterate, uneducated, and barely trained conscripts.
In a lot of cases, you can operate hardware just by following basic pictograms. This is probably a bit more advanced than that, but certainly not something that would be insurmountable. We're also assuming that the rebels are untrained - even if they aren't just regular Russian troops with insignias removed, a lot of the rebels are former military - either veterans or Ukrainian troops that defected.
no one designs military hardware for the sole purpose of selling it to other countries, that's utter nonsense. they design it to use for themselves and then sell it to other allied countries so that they can recoup some money after they have gotten all the use out of it that they can.
You make it idiot proof and intuitive so that even if someone happens to devolve into a quivering sack of shit during actual conflict, they can still use the equipment with some simple route procedures.
The official Separatists twitter account has now deleted a tweet (Russian but chrome will translate it) in which they claim to have captured a Buk SAM launcher from June 29.
AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
I don't want to jump to conclusions, but from both their actions before and after the accident, this seems like Separatists weren't trained to handle the BUK system and shot down the wrong plane.
I'll keep an open mind in case that theory does not pan out.
Obviously, the International Community will ratchet up the pressure even higher on Moscow in light of this crash.
The obvious response would be more help for the Ukrainian government to defeat the separatists. The question is how much of a response that would trigger in Moscow.
I wonder what the response to this will ultimately be. There were citizens of many nations on board, including US citizens.
I don't think trying to throw sanctions on the separatists is going to accomplish much.
I would guess IF ANYTHING, if it's proven that the separatists did this, the various countries will send equipment to the Ukraine to better able their troops to destroy the rebels.
If Russia has a problem with it, I expect the international community to collectively tell them to go fuck themselves.
edit:
in short, I expect this will be looked back on as the grisly and wholly unnecessary cap on top of a Russian initiated shit storm that should never have happened in the first place.
A key question now is whether the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine have access to the kind of missile systems that could reach a plane flying at high altitude.
The separatists have denied having any such systems. But the Associated Press is reporting that one of its journalists saw a launcher that resembled a Russian BUK system - the kind the Ukrainian goverment says carried out the strike - near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier today. The Russian network TV Zvezda, the news network for the Russian military, did report that a Buk fell to separatist hands on June 29th.
Several of the other missile launch systems possessed by the separatists can also reach considerable height - for example the 9K38, can reach up to 11,000 feet.
A captured system (or one handed over by the Russians as other reports seem to support) in hands not totally trained in their use....
I was expecting it to turn out to be a captured SAM launcher where the separatists/Russians immediately blamed it on the Ukrainians before they could confirm they had any stolen.
Question: Don't airlines normally divert around war zones?
Not really. After stuff like that Iran Air flight referenced before and KAL007, civilian transponders normally keep planes safe from stuff like this.
It requires that the transponders be set correctly and the people firing are paying attention. Some a Turkish airliner spooked the hell of out of the Iranians not to long ago because they had their transponder set wrong.
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Johnny ChopsockyScootaloo! We have to cook!Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered Userregular
There really aren't words for how fucked this whole thing is.
I'm seeing some posts on FB about the plane having diverted from it's flight plan and how it shouldn't have been in the area anyways, but not finding anything. Have you all seen something among these lines?
I'm seeing some posts on FB about the plane having diverted from it's flight plan and how it shouldn't have been in the area anyways, but not finding anything. Have you all seen something among these lines?
I have seen numerous things on BBC and similar claiming the exact opposite.
I'm seeing some posts on FB about the plane having diverted from it's flight plan and how it shouldn't have been in the area anyways, but not finding anything. Have you all seen something among these lines?
This is probably people misreading the story that the FAA was suggesting aircraft avoid that area.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I would think that most of the training that goes into operators of such equipment is along the lines of "This is what a fighter plane looks like. Shoot this. This is what a commercial airliner looks like. Don't shoot this.
Even high fidelity modern radar has difficulty distinguishing between different targets of similar size. As a few people already pointed-out, that's why the American navy shot down an airliner with about the same number of passengers on it over Iran (but they weren't Westerners, of course, so it was 'just an accident' that nobody could've given two shits about).
SAMs are pretty indiscriminate ambush weapons where the intended use is to quickly activate the radar, shoot at anything violating protected airspace, then go dark again to avoid being tracked down & destroyed in a retaliatory strike. There are civilian aircraft operating in that space, there's a significant risk of a tragedy occurring.
I would think that most of the training that goes into operators of such equipment is along the lines of "This is what a fighter plane looks like. Shoot this. This is what a commercial airliner looks like. Don't shoot this.
(but they weren't Westerners, of course, so it was 'just an accident' that nobody could've given two shits about).
Oh lord, can we not do this?
I cared before I learned there were Westerns on board.
So, how do you think Russia's going to play this? It looks really, really bad for them no matter how it turns out.
especially because BBC is reporting that Ukraine has intercepted messages from the rebels to Russia claiming responsibility.
I was hoping it was just the separatists, but ugh.
20:27:
BBC Monitoring reports more from the conversation between militants allegedly intercepted by the Ukrainian Security Service.
The conversation starts with Igor Bezler, a key militant, apparently telling a Russian security official by phone that the pro-Russian militants have shot down a plane.
20:23:
The Ukrainian Security Service SBU has published on its Youtube account what it says are intercepted conversations between pro-Russian militants in which they say they admit shooting down a civilian plane, BBC Monitoring reports.
So, how do you think Russia's going to play this? It looks really, really bad for them no matter how it turns out.
Blame Kiev until that doesn't work then blame the separatists and ignore all facts and thank their icy gods that our country isn't gung ho about military interventions at the moment.
So, how do you think Russia's going to play this? It looks really, really bad for them no matter how it turns out.
My guess, scream "NO U" then threaten NATO to stay out of its sphere or influence or else..something!
Putin's a lot of things. A dictator, a criminal, a thug. But he's not a fool. He knows he has to play his cards right here, or bring a whole ton of fuck down on Russia. I'm just really curious about how he does it.
So, how do you think Russia's going to play this? It looks really, really bad for them no matter how it turns out.
They will probably cite the Iran Air tragedy as a response to any NATO sound & fury (which is fair enough, in my opinion) and otherwise remain on course, as most countries tend to do.
So, how do you think Russia's going to play this? It looks really, really bad for them no matter how it turns out.
They will probably cite the Iran Air tragedy as a response to any NATO sound & fury (which is fair enough, in my opinion) and otherwise on course, as most countries tend to do.
No, no it isn't fair enough. That doesn't absolve anyone of anything.
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I think it's more likely they "acquired" some Ukrainian equipment.
To be fair, the random fuckups may have received some training. It's also possible the random fuckups captured the hardware on their own...no idea if Ukraine lost any of these missile systems, but they did have some in inventory.
(Warning: graphic)
http://www.businessinsider.com/graphic-photos-wreckage-malaysia-airlines-crash-ukraine-2014-7?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+businessinsider+(Business+Insider)
In college I did a co-op where I was working on a radar/missile simulator for the PATRIOT system. I was able to operate the command bunker (from startup to "shooting" targets that showed up on the display) by myself with a couple hours of training. The basic functions are pretty easy to use.
Yeah I've Never used a SAM, but I've used other military rocket/missile systems and you can probably get the basic hang of it in a few hours.
Because military interventions couldn't possibly cause a tragedy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Military hardware tends to be designed for the lowest common denominator. Idiot proof, intuitive, etc. You want to sell that hardware all over the world, in lots of cases to militaries that are full of illiterate, uneducated, and barely trained conscripts.
In a lot of cases, you can operate hardware just by following basic pictograms. This is probably a bit more advanced than that, but certainly not something that would be insurmountable. We're also assuming that the rebels are untrained - even if they aren't just regular Russian troops with insignias removed, a lot of the rebels are former military - either veterans or Ukrainian troops that defected.
Lots of Dutch citizens as well, seeing how it was flying out of Amsterdam.
Maybe.
But the cynic in me thinks that, should that be the case, he's thinking so because he fears the US is about to bring down the hammer over this.
no one designs military hardware for the sole purpose of selling it to other countries, that's utter nonsense. they design it to use for themselves and then sell it to other allied countries so that they can recoup some money after they have gotten all the use out of it that they can.
Yeah. I obviously don't know about Russian stuff, but once you get PATRIOT turned on, it is literally point and shoot.
Didn't say it was designed solely for export. There are a few examples of hardware designed for export (especially Soviet era equipment) but it's more the exception as a way of recouping development money like you said.
Regardless, barring highly technical equipment, most equipment is designed for the lowest common denominator. That includes the Gomer Pyles in your own forces.
It's... not that simple as I understand it, at least with the Buk system.
From what I've heard it either displays a fuzzy green dot for not-fighter jet, and a smaller fuzzy green dot for fighter jet.
- John Stuart Mill
You make it idiot proof and intuitive so that even if someone happens to devolve into a quivering sack of shit during actual conflict, they can still use the equipment with some simple route procedures.
Not this one though
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I'll keep an open mind in case that theory does not pan out.
Obviously, the International Community will ratchet up the pressure even higher on Moscow in light of this crash.
I don't think trying to throw sanctions on the separatists is going to accomplish much.
I would guess IF ANYTHING, if it's proven that the separatists did this, the various countries will send equipment to the Ukraine to better able their troops to destroy the rebels.
If Russia has a problem with it, I expect the international community to collectively tell them to go fuck themselves.
edit:
in short, I expect this will be looked back on as the grisly and wholly unnecessary cap on top of a Russian initiated shit storm that should never have happened in the first place.
It requires that the transponders be set correctly and the people firing are paying attention. Some a Turkish airliner spooked the hell of out of the Iranians not to long ago because they had their transponder set wrong.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
I have seen numerous things on BBC and similar claiming the exact opposite.
This is probably people misreading the story that the FAA was suggesting aircraft avoid that area.
Even high fidelity modern radar has difficulty distinguishing between different targets of similar size. As a few people already pointed-out, that's why the American navy shot down an airliner with about the same number of passengers on it over Iran (but they weren't Westerners, of course, so it was 'just an accident' that nobody could've given two shits about).
SAMs are pretty indiscriminate ambush weapons where the intended use is to quickly activate the radar, shoot at anything violating protected airspace, then go dark again to avoid being tracked down & destroyed in a retaliatory strike. There are civilian aircraft operating in that space, there's a significant risk of a tragedy occurring.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Oh lord, can we not do this?
I cared before I learned there were Westerns on board.
My guess, scream "NO U" then threaten NATO to stay out of its sphere or influence or else..something!
especially because BBC is reporting that Ukraine has intercepted messages from the rebels to Russia claiming responsibility.
I was hoping it was just the separatists, but ugh.
Blame Kiev until that doesn't work then blame the separatists and ignore all facts and thank their icy gods that our country isn't gung ho about military interventions at the moment.
Putin's a lot of things. A dictator, a criminal, a thug. But he's not a fool. He knows he has to play his cards right here, or bring a whole ton of fuck down on Russia. I'm just really curious about how he does it.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
They will probably cite the Iran Air tragedy as a response to any NATO sound & fury (which is fair enough, in my opinion) and otherwise remain on course, as most countries tend to do.
Oh shit. Shit shit shit shit. This is some Alpha Protocol shit.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
No, no it isn't fair enough. That doesn't absolve anyone of anything.