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[XCOM] Aliens have defeated this thread. Find the resistance movement in the new one

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Posts

  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    cB557 wrote: »
    Beaglebushes seem like such an obvious extension of the game mechanics that I'd think that whatever Solomon was referring to was something they already have implemented. They definitely knew that was a thing you could do.

    Maybe obvious to anyone that's read up on how aliens spend their discovery turn but not necessarily to the average player. People that don't know that aliens won't immediately fire that first sighting aren't going to make the connection to leave someone where they'll be discovered.
    I mean, I guess the people who beat a normal run and had gotten their fill of XCOM maybe never noticed it, but I'd think it'd be something that anyone who went higher than that would've noticed, and it's something pretty much everyone who has posted in an XCOM thread knows by now. It's common enough knowledge that Firaxis would definitely take it into account with their design for XCOM 2.

  • Mr RayMr Ray Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Another simple solution would be to make it so that concealed overwatch doesn't persist past the end of your turn. That may a bit heavy-handed though

    No, that actually sounds perfect. You still get basically two turns of shooty shooty as a reward for taking the time to set up an ambush where they'll stumble into you, but you at least have to take your first set of shots with an aim penalty, which makes sense as you're firing at a moving target.

    My idea was just to tweak the AI so that if they spot a soldier in the open and it breaks concealment, rather than scatter they'll just go onto overwatch immediately. They'd still be stood in the open where you can easily hit them next turn, but by not moving they wouldn't trigger your concealment overwatch, and would put your "bait" in considerable danger since he now can't move without triggering their overwatch. This also mirrors the sort of behaviour I'd expect from an Advent patrol spotting a lone idiot with a gun in the open; immediately stop and level your guns at the loony, and shoot him if he moves.

    *edit* Oh, and there's a dev in the reddit thread about this issue, and he's confirmed that whatever the fix is, you'll be able to turn it off with a 1-line ini edit if you don't like it.

    Mr Ray on
  • TakelTakel Registered User regular
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    *edit* Oh, and there's a dev in the reddit thread about this issue, and he's confirmed that whatever the fix is, you'll be able to turn it off with a 1-line ini edit if you don't like it.

    The edit will either be flipping a 1 to a 0, true to a false or commenting out something with ;

    Steam | PSN: MystLansfeld | 3DS: 4656-6210-1377 | FFXIV: Lavinia Lansfeld
  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Another simple solution would be to make it so that concealed overwatch doesn't persist past the end of your turn. That may a bit heavy-handed though

    The problem isn't the overwatch, it's that the aliens waste their turn if they bump into you while patroling. The large aim bonus when concealed just makes it worse.

    SiliconStew on
    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    Emperor_Z wrote: »
    Another simple solution would be to make it so that concealed overwatch doesn't persist past the end of your turn. That may a bit heavy-handed though

    No, that actually sounds perfect. You still get basically two turns of shooty shooty as a reward for taking the time to set up an ambush where they'll stumble into you, but you at least have to take your first set of shots with an aim penalty, which makes sense as you're firing at a moving target.

    My idea was just to tweak the AI so that if they spot a soldier in the open and it breaks concealment, rather than scatter they'll just go onto overwatch immediately. They'd still be stood in the open where you can easily hit them next turn, but by not moving they wouldn't trigger your concealment overwatch, and would put your "bait" in considerable danger since he now can't move without triggering their overwatch. This also mirrors the sort of behaviour I'd expect from an Advent patrol spotting a lone idiot with a gun in the open; immediately stop and level your guns at the loony, and shoot him if he moves.

    *edit* Oh, and there's a dev in the reddit thread about this issue, and he's confirmed that whatever the fix is, you'll be able to turn it off with a 1-line ini edit if you don't like it.

    This pretty much guarantees the solution is a simple shoot or move decision.
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »

    Personally, solutions like Itchy Trigger Tentacle or even my preference - aliens with grenades can chuck them at exposed soldiers before moving - would completely negate this being a viable strategy late game..

    The problem is that pods which activate on their patrol turn don't get a full turn. ITT is bad because it punishes normal gameplay where you move to a position to proc them and then play your turn since it will randomly be taking shots at exposed soldiers many times.

    It doesn't punish normal gameplay.

    It really doesn't. It specifically punishes a specific way of exploiting the concealment and ambush systems. I've mentioned this several times, but you have to work extremely hard to get noticed by aliens in XCOM2 during the concealment phase. This is barely going to affect anyone playing the game normally whatsoever.
    The purpose of the ambush and vision mechanics is that you're not punished for leaving people in the open. Such that you can move more quickly through the map and get to encounters.

    Correct, but the purpose was NOT to allow you to exploit that lack of punishment to get two entire free turns of shooting.
    Shooting exposed people on the first turn of combat simply is not an acceptable solution to me.

    It's my preference because it hard counters the decision to do so, because it actually introduces an element of risk and decision making into the game. Even in your solution, you're still giving the player two entire free rounds of shooting and are still saying "This is the best way to start a combat". If you've completely made the intended way the game mechanic is supposed to work, which is using concealment and overwatch to attack *on the players turn* the most sub-optimal and inferior strategy, then it hasn't fixed anything. You still always go for 2x rounds of free shooting with a very high aim bonus (as you'll be up in the aliens face when you trigger the patrol).

    And again, having watched a lot of this game there is 0 chance anyone playing normally gets punished by this. Alien patrols are predictable to a large degree, don't move that far and they have a very restricted sight radius in tiles. You literally have to be exploiting the game to have this be any kind of regular issue.

    Like even in the reddit thread I just looked at, where the dev confirmed it's a one line ini tweak (which confirms to me it's an ITT like solution honestly, unless they made something more specific), everyone is mentioning Northernlion bumbling around. He's got no understanding of Line of Sight or Flanking or well, anything to do with the games mechanics. Yet despite not understanding any of these things, he does not routinely fail to get concealment attacks off.

    If Northernlion can literally walk around maps and not understand basic concepts of the game like "Put the sniper up in a high place and your ranger with a shotgun in front, but if you're Northernlion put the person with a shotgun in the high sniper's rest and he sniper right in the front line to activate the aliens" anyone will be fine.

    In hours of footage, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone lose concealment non-deliberately.

    Edit: Also your argument this was "normal" or intended isn't correct. The Firaxis developer on reddit pretty much confirmed "There shouldn't be any one best practice for how to engage the aliens" which is what this does. There is never a good reason not to do it, because it's objectively better than any other method of breaking concealment by a long way. It needs risk and being shot if you leave them in the open is perfect.
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    My idea was just to tweak the AI so that if they spot a soldier in the open and it breaks concealment, rather than scatter they'll just go onto overwatch immediately. They'd still be stood in the open where you can easily hit them next turn, but by not moving they wouldn't trigger your concealment overwatch, and would put your "bait" in considerable danger since he now can't move without triggering their overwatch.

    The problem is being shot (or taking damage) negates overwatch and if they stand in the open, the aim bonuses/crit bonuses that you get to shoot them means they will pretty much not get a shot (or have zero chance to live). Especially because this technique relies on ambushing them at pretty close range generally. So this still makes it the most "optimal" way of playing, especially with the abilities that negate overwatch shots from your own soldiers.

    This is probably where my experience and background in PnP games with tactical combat comes in. The important thing to me is that the aliens get to do *something* before they die to make them some kind of threat. It doesn't matter if they stand and shoot, then are exposed to return fire (I feel that's a fair trade in a lot of ways), just as long as they do *something* to present a threat instead of nothing.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    Remove the Overwatch ability when soldiers are in concealment. Instead, give them a "mark target" ability or something. When someone finally shoots from concealment, all your soldiers will simultaneously fire at their marked targets, with the applicable concealment bonus.

    This is functionally identical to "overwatch doesn't persist past your turn" except it's a little less gimmicky, and you get to determine who shoots at what during your ambush, and I guess it'll show you the chance to hit, too.

    Garthor on
  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    The two week wait officially begins. I can make it, an hour at a time... Just a couple hundred left...

    I just hope the game is well balanced and challenging as fuck, I'm going in on legendary ironman to get chewed up. Trying to keep myself minimally spoiled but it's so hard.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    @Aegeri

    No. Two rounds, one of which is heavily penalized is not necessarily stronger than a host of exposed no aim penalty shots.

    If you go the "true ambush" option you get exposed shots on all the aliens for as many people as you over watch. For the "two rounds" you only get exposed/aim bonus shots if you can guarantee that you can generate flanks with your maneuvering shots.

    If aliens run when taking cover and additionally you have the standard OW aim malus then the penalty is going to be some 50%(or more depending on ambush bonuses). That is enough to guarantee the strategy is not dominating.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    That requires additionally coding and similar work, so it won't be what they have done. It would work really well, but I think they'll be stuck in the mechanics they already have in the game.

    I'm just going to restate that I'm surprised they didn't think of this themselves
    Goumindong wrote: »
    @Aegeri

    No. Two rounds, one of which is heavily penalized is not necessarily stronger than a host of exposed no aim penalty shots.

    Two shots are far better than one. Rapid Fire has a -15 penalty and is nearly always a better choice than taking a single higher accuracy one, while in this case you are penalized on your first shot and then at normal everyday shooting on your second.

    So this does not address the problem.
    If you go the "true ambush" option you get exposed shots on all the aliens for as many people as you over watch. For the "two rounds" you only get exposed/aim bonus shots if you can guarantee that you can generate flanks with your maneuvering shots.

    This isn't hard to do though because these initial engagements are often done at very close range for the aim bonus as well. So you have a big hurdle to overcome, meaning you would need a massive accuracy penalty in order to make this even remotely a viable solution - especially late game.
    If aliens run when taking cover and additionally you have the standard OW aim malus then the penalty is going to be some 50%(or more depending on ambush bonuses). That is enough to guarantee the strategy is not dominating.

    There is no OW penalty on shots made from concealment, while adding it in creates unintended gameplay elements where suddenly you penalize people playing normally directly. In fact, I believe you actually get a bonus. Of course you could decide that if aliens see you in this way, then it breaks concealment and you are now at regular aiming (with possibly the OW penalty and an exposed discovery penalty). However, these need to be MASSIVE in order to mitigate the effect that more shots = more chances to hit = more chances of killing the enemy.

    Even at -50% as the chances to hit in these ambushes are often getting over 80%+, taking two entire rounds of shooting with the aliens being able to do nothing in response is still too good. If you take 6 30% shots and kill 1 enemy, then only have 2 to deal with and without it being able to use abilities/shoot you or similar, you're still doing better than the traditional ambush. One of the criticisms of the way ambushes work, even if I disagree with it, is that if you fail to kill certain enemies they can immediately run around to your flanks or similar. So you might kill 2 of them, but if the survivor moves to your flank and shoots you for a free crit, then you're considerably worse off than the guaranteed "Shoot, then shoot again".

    The only solution that completely mitigates and appropriately punishes this strategy is the aliens immediately shooting. If they don't move, you waste your OW and potentially lose a soldier, at the cost of them being utterly exposed to your next round of fire with nothing they can do about it. It's the most tactically interesting and relevant solution, which again does not in any way punish people playing normally - it specifically counters people exploiting the AI a specific way.

    Edit: Rangers get a skill that provides a bonus. There is no OW penalty when shooting from concealment IIRC. So at best you'd be slightly worse and due to maths, even at a -20 or similar penalty, you still always take two shots.

    Always.

    Edit2: Beagle has responded and it was interesting to see even he thinks of it as abuse/exploitive.
    So cool @SolomonJake is already on the 'Concealment abuse' case. Very excited to see what the counter is! The game'll be healthier for sure.

    Also I found this follow up hilarious:
    Having my play balanced around is a nice feeling. Alternative: Jake + JohnnyLump drag me into an alley and beat me with sacks of doorknobs.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Has this been posted? I glanced at the last few pages and didn't see it.

    https://xcom.com/news/en-long-war-studios-preparing-xcom-2-content-for-launch

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Huh, interesting

    Tycho wrote:
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    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • NinotchkaNinotchka Registered User regular
    skyknyt wrote: »
    Huh, interesting
    My reaction exactly. I think I'll play vanilla first, but I am eager to see what goodies they've cooked up. And LW is a great mod, so it's reflects well on the devs to show them this support.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    It seems pretty obvious what the fix should be; if the enemy breaks concealment on their turn, they get a free shot.

    Now, it could be shooting in place of scattering, a shot before scattering, or a shot after scattering, each of which with their own level of harshness (shooting and not scattering would be the harshest, since no one would get an overwatch shot on any non-melee enemies, scatter than shoot would be the least harsh, but still leave one soldier fully exposed against any survivors.)

    Another idea might be something like an "exposed" debuff, losing concealment on enemy turn either removes or imposes a severe (worse than normal) penalty on overwatch shots, but Jake Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer's comment about AVENT tactics makes me thing it will probably be a free shot.

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I think a free shot before scattering seems like the easiest and most likely fix.

    That'll make being discovered by patrols super duper deadly, but maybe that's for the best anyway.

  • RendRend Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    I think a free shot before scattering seems like the easiest and most likely fix.

    That'll make being discovered by patrols super duper deadly, but maybe that's for the best anyway.

    It is my expectation that if I put myself into a situation where the aliens find me on their own turn that I have made a grave error and the likely penalty would be death.

  • DuriniaDurinia Evolved from Space Potatoes Registered User regular
    For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
    --Mark Twain
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