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This is why we need another [Feminism Thread].

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  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Now that you mention it, my family was pissed at me for transitioning on the same "But what about our future grandchildren" pretext. That used to piss me off so bad.

    DirtyDirtyVagrant on
  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    If I had a dollar for every time my grandfather gave me the "women who never have families wind up miserable when they get old" speech...

    He was here for dinner and spent the entire meal lecturing my sister's french friend (she's staying with us this week) about her own country's politics and American taxes. Then I made some comment about how looking a decade younger than my actual age is making it hard to make new friends (which I need to do now that all my college friends have moved out of Chicago.) Only Grandpa took it to mean I'm having trouble attracting a man because I look too young.

    He spent the rest of the evening telling me how since I'm allergic to make-up I need to cut ten inches off my hair and wear it up all the time. Also I should get rid of all my dresses and start dressing more "severe," with dark colors. Because apparently a masculine appearance = maturity? And a young woman looking to meet people is code for "husband hunting."

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    That is... weird.

    I also have long hair and don't wear make-up and look young for my age. So hi5.

    My hair is blue though. That would probably get a whole different set of lectures. It sure did from my family. :P

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • HellaJeffHellaJeff FAB FRESH RAIIINBOOWWWWWRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    That totally sucks, though I still love the term Boy Shopping.

    When ever a girlfriend of mine goes through a breakup, or even a rough patch (if I am feeling sassy) I'll suggest we go Boy Shopping.

    Which is universally understood to be getting lunch or coffee and talking about relationships while hoping that cuties walk by. Which is why it doesn't make me nearly as uncomfortable as going to a bar looking for a one night stand (the typical male equivalent).

    HellaJeff on
  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    That is... weird.

    I also have long hair and don't wear make-up and look young for my age. So hi5.

    My hair is blue though. That would probably get a whole different set of lectures. It sure did from my family. :P

    Your hair sounds awesome! Blue's my favorite color! But yeah, my family would KILL me if I dyed my hair blue. Although they'd probably kill me if I dyed my hair at all. Because my hair is RED. And in my family, redheaded females must keep their hair RED, marry blond or redheaded men, and produce more girls with RED hair.

    The redheaded men in the family, mind you, are under no such obligations.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    I love red hair and I really want to see a picture of it now. I have wanted red hair since I was old enough to know it existed, but my hair is too dark to ever get any kind of natural look from coloring it. If I had really red hair, I wouldn't dye it, most likely.

    Though I guess I might feel differently if I was born with it.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    I told my brother to take his wife's surname, and he said that he actually looked into it and apparently it's a huge hassle compared to a woman taking the husband's surname.

    YL9WnCY.png
  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    Of course, because men aren't being transferred to a new family and taking on that family's name. When men change their surnames, they're changing their surnames. It's totally different, and requires a different legal procedure!

    Ceres- I actually do like my hair color a lot. My family is just kind of shitty about it. (When I find my phone I'll post a picture of it in the fashion thread.)

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    HellaJeff wrote: »
    Captain K wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    The same thing happens with queer people, and I know this because I am a first hand example of how this thinking can take root and be awful. I've talked about this before on the forums (and recently, even, in the trans thread), but I went through a period in my youth of effectively blaming Pride movements and many forms of queer activism and flamboyant queer sexuality as if they are the reasons for homophobia and bigotry. That really people would stop caring about this stuff if they just stopped being such fags about the whole thing and conformed more to "normal" societal behaviors, outside of what they do in the bedroom. This was a narrative being spun to me, unknowingly to me at the time, by conservative pundits and individuals within the queer community who were already bought in to this idea. And I helped perpetuate it, because it worked for me. My own privileged life and my own ease with certain issues with being queer were obfuscating what was really going on and why things were better for me. I thought "Well, it's because I didn't do these things, clearly" and that wasn't even remotely true. But that was an easy sell, and there were people who were quick to reinforce that idea to me that I listened to.

    This is depressing, powerful, important stuff.

    Pony and Tank posting about their queer stories have helped me so much

    @HellaJeff

    broseph if you ever wanted to talk to me further about this stuff, feel free to PM me too

    i'm a pretty approachable dude

    i can't promise to always have sound advice or whatever but i'm always an ear to listen

    or an eyeball to read, as the case may be

  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    While we're on the subject there is this

    http://www.usprisonculture.com/blog/2014/08/04/mistaken-identity-the-violent-un-gendering-of-black-women-and-the-nypd/

    Basically, NYPD gets a domestic abuse call of a mother abusing her child. Decides to drag the woman outside her apartment half naked in front of the rest of the tenants. Also assaults and (allegedly) sprays her 4-year old granddaughter in the face with pepper spray. You know the kid they were suppose to be helping.

    Best part of it is after all this not only is the entire family charged with assault and disorderly conduct but it was the wrong address.

    Sexism, Racism, and police brutality all in one go.

    Dragkonias on
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Ho! Ho! Ho! Drink Coke!Registered User regular
    Creagan wrote: »
    If I had a dollar for every time my grandfather gave me the "women who never have families wind up miserable when they get old" speech...

    One of my mother's sisters is seventy-something years old, has never had kids, never even gotten married, and she seems to be a perfectly happy individual to me.

  • Man of the WavesMan of the Waves Registered User regular
    I just finished reading the first page and I already need a break.

    I'll be back later to catch up, cause these threads are interesting, heartbreaking and always enlightening.

  • cabsycabsy the fattest rainbow unicorn Registered User regular
    Now that you mention it, my family was pissed at me for transitioning on the same "But what about our future grandchildren" pretext. That used to piss me off so bad.

    Wh
    You can still have kids though? Like, there are tons of options available to you if you decided to have children? From surrogates to adoption to just meeting someone with a uterus and giving it the old college try? I mean I don't think you need me to tell you this, but that's just some bullshit they're using as a cover so they don't have to just say "but eww trans people" directly

    I was thinking tonight about what I want to do after I get married since I'm not changing my name, but I don't want to be Mrs Austin either. Maybe I'll be a mizz Austin, since everyone is going to get it wrong anyway. Fiance said maybe we could both hyphenate but he has a French last name and my first name is seven characters of Russian goodness and that just seems like a lot of spelling names out one letter at a time any time we need to do anything at all

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Obviously it will never be entirely unnecessary - just like total illegality would never reduce the rate of abortions anywhere near zero.

    My point is that the Pro-Life movement, were they worthy of the name, should be concerned above all else with striving to reduce the conditions which render it necessary. Though they'd never achieve it, they would meaningfully change the incidence of abortion - and even if abortion didn't go down, improved health education and child care programs would be an entirely positive legacy.

    but nah it's easier to just stand in parking lots with a sign and further traumatize vulnerable girls

    At root, the "pro-life" thing isn't about protecting babies. It's a reaction to the loss of property rights over women. The bad thing about my woman (or women if I can afford them) getting an abortion isn't so much that a "baby" dies but that my property has been stolen and destroyed.

    That's why pro-lifers are also almost always vehemently opposed to contraception as well. If I were a livestock farmer and I found out that somone had been giving all my cows the pill, that'd be almost as bad as finding out that someone had been giving the RU-486 after I'd had them serviced. There's nothing irrational about it; if makes perfect sense if you accept the axiom that a woman is always owned by a man, be it her father or her husband or whoever else.

    Interesting fact: "rape" has the same root word as robbery. If you rape my woman you're literally stealing the right to have sex with her from me (or if she's my daughter, you're stealing valuable propert that I could have sold to another man). That's the actual crime committed: you've robbed me. That's why women were supposed to resist rape even at the cost of their own lives, when the rational course of action would be to not do this. EDIT: It's also why it has traditionally been acceptable or even explicitly legal to kill another man for having sex with your woman even if she consented.

    So if you've ever wondered why so many cultures colloquially call women "cows" or compare them to other livestock, now you know. Because for most of human history, that's exactly what they were.

    And now you know why "pro life" politics is so closely identified with conservative politics.

    V1m on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    You watch It's A Wonderful Life as an adult and the "grim alternate future" for Mary is that she never married and has a steady job at the library.

    Le horror!

    YL9WnCY.png
  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    The way things are going with me, it looks like I'm going to wind up exactly the same way.

    In my family, that is possibly the most rebellious thing a person can do.

  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    You know, it seems like it'd be sorta interesting to compare sexism in old movies vs new movies. somehow i feel like that would have some surprises. Or, un-surprises.

  • Volucrisus AedriusVolucrisus Aedrius Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Creagan wrote: »
    If I had a dollar for every time my grandfather gave me the "women who never have families wind up miserable when they get old" speech...

    One of my mother's sisters is seventy-something years old, has never had kids, never even gotten married, and she seems to be a perfectly happy individual to me.

    There's this old card game you may have heard of. Children play it, or, well, they did when I went to fuckin' school.

    It's called "Old Maid." You get dealt some cards, you draw new cards, and though the rules are fuzzy I do remember one of the chief ambitions of the game is to get rid of an Old Maid or simply avoid drawing one. Getting rid of an Old Maid is a fucking ordeal. It's the challenge that makes the game fun, for fuck'sake.


    Now, the game never goes into details. It never explains what an Old Maid is.

    Is it a maid that polishes your plaques and awards until your names are unrecognizable? Does she wash your whites with colors and thereby ruin your good linens? Are her eyes merely rheumy and her hands arthritic and she deserves retirement?

    There are millions of reasons to get rid of an Old Maid, but these are all circumstantial, and rooted entirely in the concept of the maid being person employed to clean up after you. Could there be one concept of an Old Maid that supercedes this?

    Yeah. Virginity. The old unmarried relative. The old woman who bore no children and wed no man. The geriatric virgin. She will accomplish nothing. She has accomplished nothing. Her existence is unsavory and as such any card designated to be an Old Maid becomes an object to discard. She has no children to take care of her. As such, you must take care of her. She is an imposition.

    The game is about inconveniencing that discard.

    TL:DR I need feminism because this is a real fucking thing I learned as a kid and I'm not happy about it. Half because I learned the game as a kid, but maybe a bigger half (if such a thing is possible) was the realization that a I had been taught at such a young age to be fertile to such concepts and arguments.

    Volucrisus Aedrius on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited August 2014
    Wrong thread

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Elrond Hubbard Mordor XenuRegistered User regular
    We need another feminism thread because, because, because, becaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause ...

    BECASUE-OF-THE-WONDERFUL-THINGS-IT-DOES!!!!

    ...

    Sorry I'm late on that one, but I felt that a Wizard of Oz pun was overdue.
















    we're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of oz

  • Volucrisus AedriusVolucrisus Aedrius Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Wrong thread

    Me?

    Edit: My bad

    Volucrisus Aedrius on
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User, Moderator mod
    Wrong thread

    Me?

    Nah his post. See, he edited it.

  • Volucrisus AedriusVolucrisus Aedrius Registered User regular
    Anzekay wrote: »
    Wrong thread

    Me?

    Nah his post. See, he edited it.

    Oh shit, my mistake, thanks for pointing that out

  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    Ana Ng wrote: »
    I need feminism because whenever I tell people I'm moving temporarily out of state to finish my engineering degree the first question is "Is your husband going with you?" and after hearing no, the rest of the conversation can only center around how much I will miss him and how difficult it's going to be for me to be without him and how they just don't understaaaaaand how I can manage to be on my own for a few months. Nothing about how exciting it is to finish my education. Nope. Just sad little woman without her man.

    I need feminism because everyone assumes I am Mrs. Husband's Last Name and get confused/concerned when I correct them.

    I need feminism because I am sick and tired of explaining that I have no plans to have children because I simply don't want them and have no maternal desires beyond taking care of my cats.

    Yo you and Tynic and Usagi need to just get together and build an army of robots that straight up punt mouthy dudes in the weiner

    "Hey did you need some help doublechecking those equations--" BAM. WEINERSLAM.

  • MetalbourneMetalbourne Inside a cluster b personalityRegistered User regular
    And now scooter totally made it up to her by scratching his butt on the back patio

    The origin of turd scooter?

    Actually he's named after scooter of catch a riiiide fame

  • ManishtushuManishtushu Registered User regular
    I need feminism thread because smashing the patriarchy is more fun with friends.

  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    V1m wrote: »
    So if you've ever wondered why so many cultures colloquially call women "cows" or compare them to other livestock, now you know. Because for most of human history, that's exactly what they were.

    Ok wow
    So I know you're coming from a good place and most of your post is quite accurate, but this last sentence is wow

    Because a) actually that's not true for 'most of human history'. From what we know of prehistoric tribes (and this is highly limited), there is no real suggestion that the patriarchal medieval concepts described in this post are anything other than a post-agrarian phenomenon, and even then it's by no means universal. We know women have had widely varying degrees of autonomy and respect in post-Bronze Age cultures.

    Most of human history is unrecorded. We just don't know very much about what it was like. And because we have such limited information, what we do receive as common wisdom about extinct cultures is heavily influenced by the biases of the paleo anthropologists themselves. Additionally, modern nomadic cultures, which may be the closest we can get to our ancient lifestyles, by no means universally reflect this 'property' attitude towards women, even ones which are highly gender segregated. So that statement is painting with a very broad brush, at the least.

    And b) the way you phrased that sentence really got my back up. I wish you'd said "exactly what they were thought of", or something. It would have been inaccurate but less offensive.

    It may seem a small thing, but women have never been cows, even in a society that may consider them such. It's a phrasing that erases the agency of women in all premodern cultures. It's saying "you were cattle for thousands of years, until we became more enlightened and you were raised up to the status of people.". Women were always people, just some eras and places have attempted (usually not very successfully!) to keep them from considering themselves as such.

    I know it's not what you meant but it's a little... unfortunately worded.

  • CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    Yeah, you're not exactly wrong, but you'd have been better off at least specifying "written history." And probably saying "exactly what they were considered to be," rather than what they were.

    That way you keep the sentiment, accuracy, and concise nature of the sentence.

  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    A whole lot of American Indian tribes were matriarchal, up until white dudes came over and told them how that was wrong

  • TankHammerTankHammer Atlanta Ghostbuster Atlanta, GARegistered User regular
    HellaJeff wrote: »
    Captain K wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    The same thing happens with queer people, and I know this because I am a first hand example of how this thinking can take root and be awful. I've talked about this before on the forums (and recently, even, in the trans thread), but I went through a period in my youth of effectively blaming Pride movements and many forms of queer activism and flamboyant queer sexuality as if they are the reasons for homophobia and bigotry. That really people would stop caring about this stuff if they just stopped being such fags about the whole thing and conformed more to "normal" societal behaviors, outside of what they do in the bedroom. This was a narrative being spun to me, unknowingly to me at the time, by conservative pundits and individuals within the queer community who were already bought in to this idea. And I helped perpetuate it, because it worked for me. My own privileged life and my own ease with certain issues with being queer were obfuscating what was really going on and why things were better for me. I thought "Well, it's because I didn't do these things, clearly" and that wasn't even remotely true. But that was an easy sell, and there were people who were quick to reinforce that idea to me that I listened to.

    This is depressing, powerful, important stuff.

    Pony and Tank posting about their queer stories have helped me so much

    Really? Are you sure that was me? I think I talked about it like one time nearly a year ago.

    Really happy if you found it helpful though <3
    I just feel like you are maybe talking about someone else.

  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    JohnHam wrote: »
    In general, I consider Esquire a terrible magazine, but parts of this article made me start to tear up. It's about a Mississippi abortion doctor who is basically an incredible hero.

    http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-ministry-of-dr-willie-parker-0914
    the last abortion provider in Mississippi, known as the Pink House because the defiant woman who owns it painted it pink to make it stand out, bold and unashamed.

    This just tickles me. 8->

    A nice little extra "Fuck you" to the state trying to shut them down.

    Switch Friend Code: SW-6680-6709-4204


  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    JohnHam wrote: »
    "Don't read the comments" is just a really solid blanket policy imo.

    I usually love delving into silly comment sections.

    But on issues regarding homosexuality and bisexuality, gender identity and other hot topics, I just can't really bear it.

    Especially with stories about transgendered kids and such, there's always some people going "HOW DARE THE PARENTS FORCE THEIR CHILD INTO BLAH BLAH"

    or "Clearly they should wait until after puberty, even though this clearly makes transitioning a million times more difficult, blah blah"

    Just a bunch of dumb shit from people who clearly have never spoken to a human being that knows anything about this stuff.

    Switch Friend Code: SW-6680-6709-4204


  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    I felt that a Wizard of Oz pun was overdue.

    Well sure. L. Frank Baum was a serious feminist, radical for his age. If you've ever read the books, you know they're full of strong female characters, heroes and villains. Dorothy was way sassier (in the best sort of way) in the books too.

    You could even read some LGBT themes into them too with
    Princess Ozma, the rightful ruler of Oz. She was turned into a boy as a baby by a wicked witch and had to be turned back to take her throne. Then she and Dorothy become bestest friends ever and greet each other with kisses all the time. Now, while nothing is stated to be romantic and we're talking about ten to twelve year old girls here, you can totally read some lesbian subtext in there.

  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    I love red hair and I really want to see a picture of it now. I have wanted red hair since I was old enough to know it existed, but my hair is too dark to ever get any kind of natural look from coloring it. If I had really red hair, I wouldn't dye it, most likely.

    Though I guess I might feel differently if I was born with it.

    Yeah well, the grass hair is always greener redder, etc.

    Switch Friend Code: SW-6680-6709-4204


  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Elrond Hubbard Mordor XenuRegistered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    I felt that a Wizard of Oz pun was overdue.

    Well sure. L. Frank Baum was a serious feminist, radical for his age. If you've ever read the books, you know they're full of strong female characters, heroes and villains. Dorothy was way sassier (in the best sort of way) in the books too.

    You could even read some LGBT themes into them too with
    Princess Ozma, the rightful ruler of Oz. She was turned into a boy as a baby by a wicked witch and had to be turned back to take her throne. Then she and Dorothy become bestest friends ever and greet each other with kisses all the time. Now, while nothing is stated to be romantic and we're talking about ten to twelve year old girls here, you can totally read some lesbian subtext in there.

    I did not know any of that.

    Thank you!

  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Sorry I'm late on that one, but I felt that a Wizard of Oz pun was overdue.

    Once during a D&D session, our party was tasked with delivering a message to some important lord or King or whatever.

    Me: "We're off to bring the messaaaage!" :whistle:

    Everyone else at the table: "The wonderful message of Oz!" :whistle:

    Goatmon on
    Switch Friend Code: SW-6680-6709-4204


  • SorceSorce Not ThereRegistered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    I felt that a Wizard of Oz pun was overdue.

    Well sure. L. Frank Baum was a serious feminist, radical for his age. If you've ever read the books, you know they're full of strong female characters, heroes and villains. Dorothy was way sassier (in the best sort of way) in the books too.

    You could even read some LGBT themes into them too with
    Princess Ozma, the rightful ruler of Oz. She was turned into a boy as a baby by a wicked witch and had to be turned back to take her throne. Then she and Dorothy become bestest friends ever and greet each other with kisses all the time. Now, while nothing is stated to be romantic and we're talking about ten to twelve year old girls here, you can totally read some lesbian subtext in there.

    I did not know any of that.

    Thank you!
    You (and by you I mean everyone) should really pick up the Marvel comic adaptation of the series. Skottie Young is on the art duties, and Eric Shanower is on dem wordings, and it's pretty fantastic. The original series of books is 14 volumes long, and for all I know, the comic is aiming for the same length. Right now they've put Book 6 out in hardcover, with the previous 5 in both HC and SC.

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  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    And now scooter totally made it up to her by scratching his butt on the back patio

    The origin of turd scooter?

    Actually he's named after scooter of catch a riiiide fame

    That makes way too much sense.

    Especially since Scooter is exactly the kind of dog who would say "Well hey c'mon in! I ain't gon' bite, prob'ly..."

This discussion has been closed.