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The Middle East v5: The Fourth Gulf War

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Also, is it just me or does the Hannibal Directive sound like something a super-villain would come up with?

    It sounds like the rule is "No soldier left uneaten".

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    [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    PLA wrote: »
    Motivating the enemy to take no prisoners sounds legit.

    Yeah this is the reasoning. Israeli prisoners have been extremely valuable in the past: they get traded back to Israel for the release of sometimes hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

    edit: to clarify, taking prisoners has often been the goal of attacks, not just a spin-off effect. The 2006 war with Hezbollah was started when Hezbollah attacked an Israeli vehicle with the purpose of taking hostages, which are valuable. A huge response discourages this sort of operation.

    [Tycho?] on
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    Big ClassyBig Classy Registered User regular
    Violations of Human Rights committed by Israel between July 23rd and 25th.
    Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.
    The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) reported that on July 25, a Red Crescent volunteer was mortally wounded in an Israeli attack in Khuza’a, and other volunteers who tried to rescue him were fired on. Under the laws of war, medical workers are civilians who may not be targeted for attack.

    Even aid workers aren't safe from IDF.
    On the morning of July 23, Israeli forces ordered a group of about 100 Palestinians in Khuza’a to leave a home in which they had gathered to take shelter, family members said. The first member to leave the house, Shahid al-Najjar, had his hands up but an Israeli soldier shot him in the jaw, seriously injuring him.


    Israeli soldiers detained the men and boys over age 15 in an area close to the Gaza perimeter fence. Based on statements from witnesses and news reports, some were taken to Israel for questioning. Israeli forces released others that day, in small separate groups. As one group walked unarmed to Khan Younis, Israeli soldiers fired on them, killing one and wounding two others.

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    AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014


    "Those who are now going to grow up in Gaza without parents, workplaces, universities - what do you think they will be drawn to? Yoga and writing letters to the editor?"

    Absalon on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.608723
    6:23 P.M. Police forces sweeping area of Tel Aviv Port, in attempt to locate a man who called the city's police hotline and said he had intended to carry out a bombing.

    The caller, who did not identify himself, said he was on his way to carry out a bombing but decided not to follow through with it, and sought to return home to Hebron. (Yaniv Kubovich)
    4:10 P.M. Gunman on motorcycle opens fire at bus stop by Jerusalem's Hebrew University in Mt. Scopus. One man seriously wounded. Security forces attempting to apprehend attacker. To read the full article (Jonathan Lis)

    And I don't remember seeing this posted in the last few days:
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/174266/religion-plays-large-role-americans-support-israelis.aspx
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    [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    Panda4You wrote: »
    Disgruntled truck driver now qualifies for a terrorist attack? I wish the thousands of other victims around the world would have been so lucky...
    Good thing he didn't cause more harm I guess.

    It was events like these that preceded the first intifada, in the last 80s. There was no structure behind it, but individual Arabs started attacking Jews, soldiers and civilians, basically at random. Knife attacks, shooting, beatings- this was when the populations were much more integrated, before the "security barrier" and the host of checkpoints.

    There are around 1.7 million arabs living in Israel, and many thousands more come from the West Bank to work on a daily basis. These people do not usually revolt; they have decent jobs and want to keep them. But their combined power is significant; if all of them went on strike it would cause major problems for Israel, let alone a violent uprising.

    Well.
    Soldier wounded in Jerusalem shooting, hours after digger attack kills one
    According to a preliminary investigation of the Mt. Scopus incident, a man dressed in black shot a 20-year-old soldier in the stomach, wounding him seriously, got on a motorcycle that was waiting for him and fled the scene. A security guard standing nearby shot at the suspect, but failed to hit him. Security forces are attempting to apprehend the attacker.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.608782

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    PLA wrote: »
    Motivating the enemy to take no prisoners sounds legit.

    Yeah this is the reasoning. Israeli prisoners have been extremely valuable in the past: they get traded back to Israel for the release of sometimes hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

    edit: to clarify, taking prisoners has often been the goal of attacks, not just a spin-off effect. The 2006 war with Hezbollah was started when Hezbollah attacked an Israeli vehicle with the purpose of taking hostages, which are valuable. A huge response discourages this sort of operation.

    So you are telling me the IDF is Keyser Soze from the usual suspects? They copied their hostage negotiation techniques from a fictional analogue of Satan?

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    [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    In Iraq, ISIS has made gains against the Peshmerga (the Kurdish militia). The towns of Zumar and Sinjar, in the north west of the country have been taken. ISIS also controls Mosul dam. This is the 2nd (at least) hydroelectric dam they control. Aside from controlling electricity used by millions of people, the Mosul damn in particular is up-river from Mosul itself. For anyone wanting to take Mosul back from ISIS, it would seem to be prudent to re-take the dam first, lest they get any ideas.

    Here is a peice that guesses ISIS makes around 3 million dollars a day from selling oil. This has long been their strategy in Syria, and now that they're expanding their territory in both Syria and Iraq they're taking yet more oil fields. They can't run them properly, but even at a fraction of their operating capacity it amounts to a lot of oil. I really wonder who exactly is buying the stuff.

    edit: forgot link http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-makes-million-day-selling-oil-analysts/story?id=24814359

    [Tycho?] on
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    Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    9:24 P.M. Palestinian factions accept the new cease-fire draft presented by Israel, and will lay down their weapons at 8 A.M. on Tuesday morning. (Jack Khoury)
    I wonder if there are betting pools on how long it takes for the cease-fires to be broken.

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    Big ClassyBig Classy Registered User regular
    Depends on how quickly Israeli spokespeople can come up with excuses.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    11:20 P.M. Israeli cabinet ministers accepted the Egyptian proposal for a 72-hour cease-fire without preconditions, a senior Israeli official says. The unconditional cease-fire will last for 72 hours, with a possibility for extension. During the coming days, an Israeli delegation will set out for Cairo for talks on a more permanent cease-fire agreement.

    The senior official stated, “if the cease-fire lasts, there will not be a need for a continued IDF presence within the Gaza Strip,” meaning that the IDF forces that have remained in Gaza will likely return to Israeli territory a few hours after the cease-fire goes into effect. (Barak Ravid)
    So hopefully there won't be any misunderstandings.
    11:51 P.M. Spain temporarily freezes arms exports to Israel over Gaza war. Spain is the second country to announce sanctions over arms sale to Israel in the past 24 hours, after Britain said it was reviewing all arms export licenses to Israel. (Barak Ravid)

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    CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    There are jewish mobs in Israel with slogans from european nazi parties on them

    somewhere an onion writer sobs

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    somewhere an onion writer sobs

    This is a constant as universal as gravity or adam sandler movies.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    There are jewish mobs in Israel with slogans from european nazi parties on them

    somewhere an onion writer sobs

    I still find it kind of funny that there have been neonazi attacks in Israel by immigrants from the Soviet Union who got to Israel by the law of return.

    Couscous on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Evil doesn't require a special kind of person, more warped than any other. That's the myth.

    Evil starts with treating people as things. Always and forever, the core of it is treating people as things.

    It is depressingly easy for normal, everyday human beings, to start doing this as a result of their environment and the beliefs and values that have shaped them.

    Most of the time they have no idea what they've become.

    Morninglord on
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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    And, like the little green muppet says, such thinking is easy and seductive. We already have trouble thinking of those outside our "monkeysphere" (see Dunbar's number) as actual people, thanks to how our brains are wired. Just take that one step further. Life is so much simpler when you don't have to care what the untermenschen feel or want, or treat them with respect or fairness, or as anything but an abstract, collective resource/problem/etc. All costs can be laid on them, while all benefits go to you and yours (the only people you have to care and worry about).

    Commander Zoom on
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    NumiNumi Registered User regular
    Panda4You wrote: »

    Horrifying but not surprising and it meshes well with some things I have been mulling over for the last few days.

    A large part of Israels international pr has always come from pushing this idea in the west that they are "just like us" or "shares our values" as opposed to the arabs that are others, "only democrazy in the middle east" anyone. It is largely an illusion but it seems to be increasingly hard to maintain it as more and more of the crazy from certain segments of the israeli population rises to the surface. In order to prop this up Israel needs an enemy that looks at least as crazy as it does and so we get Hamas and groups like them complete with scary islamic connections and rhetoric. This is in contrast with Fatah that comes from a more traditional socialist foundation and is far more palatable for "us" than the other options and I think the Israeli fear is that Fatah is able to capitalize on message slipping when it comes to international relations.

    Being able to deflect questions about the situation on the west bank with hand wringing about rockets from Hamas in Gaza has been highly beneficial to Israel because they come away from any discussion about the West Bank looking extremely bad and with good reason since the settlements are in essence making a palestinian state unworkable by cutting it into smaller and smaller disconnected chunks and also that whole geneva convention thing. This is even before we start looking at the actions of the settlers, not that all of them are violent racists but there seems to be enough to go around.

    Israel is largely immune to outside pressure, partly because they know they have the US in their corner come hell or high water but also because they already view themselves as alone against the world. The phrase "one small country surrounded by enemies" or whatever version random pro-israel talking head decides on comes to mind. The problem for Israel is that it also desperately wants to be seen as a proper country and they sort of suspect that we don't and that pisses them off.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Can anyone explain to me exactly why America has this massive blind spot with Israel?

    I can guesstimate a hell of a lot of probable reasons but I'd really rather have someone who actually lives there explain it.

    Morninglord on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Oil, guilt, and religion. Oh, and lobbyists.

    Incenjucar on
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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    And Racism

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Oil, guilt, and religion. Oh, and lobbyists.
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    And Racism


    I already gathered this general outline.

    I was looking for perhaps a bit more detail?


    Morninglord on
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    GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Oil, guilt, and religion. Oh, and lobbyists.
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    And Racism


    I already gathered this general outline.

    I was looking for perhaps a bit more detail?


    Basically the lobbyist tout the Jewish vote as integral to winning elections. It may or may not be I honestly don't know but that's the perception that is pushed. Also if you criticize Israel you are a nazi who supports exterminating them. I really wish the last part was more hyperbole than it is. The consequence is you become. A socially unelectable for the most minor move against Israel because no one likes nazis.

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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Basically it's just the usual profit and power thing with a little extra BS. Israel is only special because of PR.

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    Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »

    Basically the lobbyist tout the Jewish vote as integral to winning elections.

    Which is weird, because they make up less than 2.2% of the population. Maybe because of Florida, but there are a lot more Hispanics than Jews in Florida and locking up the Hispanic vote would not require supporting an apartheid state.

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Oil, guilt, and religion. Oh, and lobbyists.
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    And Racism


    I already gathered this general outline.

    I was looking for perhaps a bit more detail?

    1) Some of Evangelical Christianity believes Jews need to return to Israel (thus Israel needs to exist) to trigger the end times and thus the return of Jesus.
    2) Oil, it's a strategically useful ally for bases and what not for our various adventures in the Middle East.
    3) Guilt over not intervening in World War 2 earlier, or focusing on liberating the concentration camps earlier (this is... somewhat illogical, but it exists)
    4) Florida is a vitally important state for the Presidency with a fairly large Jewish minority. Conventional wisdom is that this vote is a key swing demographic that cares a lot about Israel. This is less true than AIPAC would have you believe (mostly, Jewish Americans are Democrats), but AIPAC has a lot of money and very few scruples (that sounds stereotyped, dammit), so people running for office tend to either believe it or at least act as if they do.
    5) Racism is fairly self explanatory, no?

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Can anyone explain to me exactly why America has this massive blind spot with Israel?

    I can guesstimate a hell of a lot of probable reasons but I'd really rather have someone who actually lives there explain it.

    Religion.

    skip to 1:05 to get past this Youtuber's intro, this probably won't be on youtube for too long
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQi9kI8TVlc

    Basically huge Christian groups spend ridiculous amounts of money lobbying both the Israeli and Arab governments, the largest one being a megachurch out of texas because they believe the end times will happen there and the only way to do that is to make the Palestinians go away

    Now it's probably not that well articulated for the average Christian who donates, but for the guys collecting and distributing the money it absolutely is about that

    edit 2: found it

    override367 on
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    DynagripDynagrip Break me a million hearts HoustonRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »

    Basically the lobbyist tout the Jewish vote as integral to winning elections.

    Which is weird, because they make up less than 2.2% of the population. Maybe because of Florida, but there are a lot more Hispanics than Jews in Florida and locking up the Hispanic vote would not require supporting an apartheid state.
    It's more the money they wield as opposed to raw numbers

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    BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    Can anyone explain to me exactly why America has this massive blind spot with Israel?

    I can guesstimate a hell of a lot of probable reasons but I'd really rather have someone who actually lives there explain it.

    Religion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PLIWZj5Buk

    they have like a 20 minute segment about it in the HBO episode

    edit: that didn't really explain it like the episode did it looks like thats just an addendum they put on youtube

    Basically huge Christian groups spend ridiculous amounts of money lobbying both the Israeli and Arab governments, the largest one being a megachurch out of texas because they believe the end times will happen there and the only way to do that is to make the Palestinians go away

    Now it's probably not that well articulated for the average Christian who donates, but for the guys collecting and distributing the money it absolutely is about that

    This was talked about in the other thread as well, here my post with some wiki links for perusal:
    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/30403854/#Comment_30403854

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    KupiKupi Registered User regular
    It ain't the Jewish vote, it's the Christian vote. The Democratic Party is not going to risk 100% mobilization of the (white, southern Evangelical) Republican base by saying a single word that isn't favorable to Israel.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    there are four times as many voting evangelical christians in the US as there are jews on the entire planet, if VICE's numbers are right

    override367 on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    It always creeps me out that a huge part of why we help Israel is because we're basically fattening them as a human sacrifice.

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    KanaKana Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Oil, guilt, and religion. Oh, and lobbyists.

    and also force of habit from the cold war

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Evil doesn't require a special kind of person, more warped than any other. That's the myth.

    Evil starts with treating people as things. Always and forever, the core of it is treating people as things.

    It is depressingly easy for normal, everyday human beings, to start doing this as a result of their environment and the beliefs and values that have shaped them.

    Most of the time they have no idea what they've become.

    Why hello there Dr. Millgram.

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    TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    395 members of Congress just voted to send another $255 Million to Israel.

    Go read some of the stuff being written about Keith Ellison, one of the eight who voted against it.

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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    While the Hail Hydra button may have been tailor made for the debate forum...

    It simply is inadequate for this. I think it needs upgrading for this thread.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Evil doesn't require a special kind of person, more warped than any other. That's the myth.

    Evil starts with treating people as things. Always and forever, the core of it is treating people as things.

    It is depressingly easy for normal, everyday human beings, to start doing this as a result of their environment and the beliefs and values that have shaped them.

    Most of the time they have no idea what they've become.

    Why hello there Dr. Millgram.

    Millgram's experiments are hardly the main point of what I'm talking about. Deference to authority is only an explanation for specific circumstances. It doesn't apply to the group think and racism occurring here.

    I'm talking about the basic building blocks of our cognition here, including how we think about groups, pulled from a wide range of experiments in cognitive and social psychology.

    Also I stole Terry Pratchett's phrasing because it's really good. :)

    The important thing though is that this is an explanation, not a defense. It's possible to exert a measure of control over these processes if you are aware of them. Even if sometimes you can't do it directly and have to be kind of meta about it.

    And a really, really good start is not allowing yourself to think of people as things.

    Morninglord on
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    PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Evil doesn't require a special kind of person, more warped than any other. That's the myth.

    Evil starts with treating people as things. Always and forever, the core of it is treating people as things.

    It is depressingly easy for normal, everyday human beings, to start doing this as a result of their environment and the beliefs and values that have shaped them.

    Most of the time they have no idea what they've become.

    Why hello there Dr. Millgram.

    Millgram's experiments are hardly the main point of what I'm talking about. Deference to authority is only an explanation for specific circumstances. It doesn't apply to the group think and racism occurring here.

    I'm talking about the basic building blocks of our cognition here, including how we think about groups, pulled from a wide range of experiments in cognitive and social psychology.

    Also I stole Terry Pratchett's phrasing because it's really good. :)

    The important thing though is that this is an explanation, not a defense. It's possible to exert a measure of control over these processes if you are aware of them. Even if sometimes you can't do it directly and have to be kind of meta about it.

    I just meant Millgram's experiment is a good example of how depressingly easy it is.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Mobs too.

    Get enough people in one place and the sheer pressure of all those other people will shape your behaviors even if you normally would never consider such things. It starts to eat away at your individual identity and you start siding with the pack.

    So groups of people in close proximity can end up working as one even if a lot of the time the individuals involved wouldn't even agree that what the group is doing is a good idea. They just get pulled along.

    It isn't hopeless though.

    In both the milligram experiment and the deindividuation experiments, in fact any social conforming phenomenon, its possible to defuse these effects.

    For stuff like Racism one of the best ways is to have children from both groups play together and work together.

    Kids don't have racism naturally. A really good way to combat all those negative stereotypes is for the person to be able to immediately think of his friend down the street.

    The stupid walls and enforced segregations in this case are the textbook example of what not to do.

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