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The Middle East v5: The Fourth Gulf War

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I was most disturbed by the connection between the school system and the IDF.

    That shit is creepy as fuck.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    I got a bit sidetracked there. Thanks for the explanation guys.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    Big ClassyBig Classy Registered User regular
    Oh lawdy! Just look at the devastation wrought by the Hamas rocket!
    10551092_10152187767467373_2250175287425677293_n.jpg?oh=b9292c8e6ecc696554ca7d6cc013614a&oe=543368E6


    Here's one that scared the wildlife
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bpqiHchsbE0

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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Go kitty go.

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    programjunkieprogramjunkie Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    395 members of Congress just voted to send another $255 Million to Israel.

    Go read some of the stuff being written about Keith Ellison, one of the eight who voted against it.

    God damn it. All morality of this conflict aside, Israel doesn't need this money as much as American citizens do. It blows my mind how quickly Congress is willing to sacrifice American interests for Israeli ones.

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    Big ClassyBig Classy Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Baroness Warsi, the UK Foreign Office Minister has resigned. Government policy on Gaza was written as the reason for resignation.


    Big Classy on
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    Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    It's quite saddening to see the leeway the world is giving Israel to get away with what they are doing right now. Keeping ~2 million people corraled in a reservation, isolated from the rest of civilization by military force, and slowly but steadily turning everything in there to dust. Israel really is acting with total impunity here. Who cares who they're shooting at, bombing or killing, it's all human shields anyway, right?
    hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians
    No records, no investigations.

    The international community's betrayal of the palestinian populace is just staggering. We're leaving them to die in a concentration camp as we speak.

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    LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    While as apt as that comparison may be, using WW2 language for the current crisis will not persuade others to see how harmful Israel has become. It's like the term "racist", all dialogue ceases once we start throwing around WW2 references. And while I don't necessarily disagree and the irony is not lost on me, such language will just harden people.

    Just, the Israeli military is shooting fleeing civilians is strong enough. And if that's not strong enough language to persuade people, then humanity has bigger problems than the Gaza crisis.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.608970
    Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is opposed to integrating Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas into any arrangement in the Gaza Strip following the cease-fire. Lieberman presented this stance at a Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee meeting on Monday, a senior Israeli official said.

    "To think of Abu Mazen [Abbas] as an ally in the Gaza Strip is a serious mistake," Lieberman said during the meeting. "Abu Mazen may act against Hamas in Gaza, but he also acts against us in the international forums. It is he who pushed the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva to establish a commission of inquiry and he who is pushing for processes against us in the UN Security Council in New York."

    Lieberman's remarks surprised many of the MKs present, as Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon two weeks ago appeared before the committee with a completely opposite message.

    Ya'alon emphasized that Israel wanted the Palestinian president's forces deployed at the Gaza borders, particular at the Rafah crossing with Egypt. That arrangement was to be part and parcel of any cease-fire agreement to end Operation Protective Edge.

    Two of the Knesset members who participated in that meeting said that Ya'alon had stressed that it was Egypt demanding the returned presence of Abbas' forces at the border crossings, and that Israel supported the move. "We won't agree to recognize a unity government," Ya'alon said. "But different arrangements like control of the crossings is something we can accept. Abbas will control the crossings, but he won't control Gaza itself."

    What do they expect, a Palestinian ally who actually favors the settlements and destruction or something.

    Edit:
    1:50 P.M. A security guard was moderately wounded Tuesday afternoon in stabbing attack near the police station at the entrance to Ma'aleh Admumim, near Jerusalem. Police suspect terrorist motive. The guard, in his mid-50s, open fired on the assailant who managed to escape to the village Azaria nearby. (Chaim Levinson and Jonathan Lis)

    Couscous on
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    jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    While as apt as that comparison may be, using WW2 language for the current crisis will not persuade others to see how harmful Israel has become. It's like the term "racist", all dialogue ceases once we start throwing around WW2 references. And while I don't necessarily disagree and the irony is not lost on me, such language will just harden people.

    Just, the Israeli military is shooting fleeing civilians is strong enough. And if that's not strong enough language to persuade people, then humanity has bigger problems than the Gaza crisis.

    Can we use South Africa references instead? As it is, the Palestinians pretty much are Israeli considering how much control Israel has over their lives.

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    QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    It always creeps me out that a huge part of why we help Israel is because we're basically fattening them as a human sacrifice.
    I have come around to the conclusion that this is a mischaracterization of the Evangelical position. Yes, they support Israel in large part because of crazy prophecies in Revelation, and it's true that hard-core evangelicals believe Jews will go to hell. But I think it's a stretch to call them a "sacrifice," because many evangelicals today consider right-wing Jews their staunch allies in the war against Islam. Also, evangelicals do not really believe that supporting Israel will somehow hasten the eschaton—that's impossible, because God's in control.

    I couldn't find the original source that convinced me, but I did find a Pat Robertson screed that makes the point just as well:

    http://www.patrobertson.com/Speeches/IsraelLauder.asp

    And I think this gets to a broader issue of American support for Israel. Some of it is pro-Jewish influence for sure, but a lot of it is based on antipathy towards Muslims. Even before 9/11, radical Muslims had carried out terrorist attacks against Americans, we've been fighting wars against Islamic nations for decades. If you believe that America is engaged in a war of civilizations—and there's a secular version of this "war" as well as a religious version—then Israel (or at least the right wing) are on the good guys' side.

    (Just to be clear, I don't agree with this position—if there is a war of civilizations, I think right-wing Jews have more in common with the Islamic State than they do with liberal democracy.)

    Qingu on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    The idea of Jews magically converting to Christianity during the end times is one of many screwy ideas, especially considering that at least American Jews strongly dislike evangelical Christians.
    PF_14.07.16_interreligiousRelations_ALL.png

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    In Iraq, ISIS has made gains against the Peshmerga (the Kurdish militia). The towns of Zumar and Sinjar, in the north west of the country have been taken. ISIS also controls Mosul dam. This is the 2nd (at least) hydroelectric dam they control. Aside from controlling electricity used by millions of people, the Mosul damn in particular is up-river from Mosul itself. For anyone wanting to take Mosul back from ISIS, it would seem to be prudent to re-take the dam first, lest they get any ideas.

    Here is a peice that guesses ISIS makes around 3 million dollars a day from selling oil. This has long been their strategy in Syria, and now that they're expanding their territory in both Syria and Iraq they're taking yet more oil fields. They can't run them properly, but even at a fraction of their operating capacity it amounts to a lot of oil. I really wonder who exactly is buying the stuff.

    edit: forgot link http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-makes-million-day-selling-oil-analysts/story?id=24814359

    I would imagine it's not that dissimilar from groups who buy oil from Iraqi Kurdistan--which in the past, if not still presently, was strictly against Iraqi and American policy. I remember reading that a lot was loaded on trucks and just drive to destination on the covert side, while a third-party tanker was just sailing around the region, looking for partial buyers.
    Couscous wrote: »
    There are jewish mobs in Israel with slogans from european nazi parties on them

    somewhere an onion writer sobs

    I still find it kind of funny that there have been neonazi attacks in Israel by immigrants from the Soviet Union who got to Israel by the law of return.

    Well, the republican governments of the USSR used that as an excuse to deny emigration visas to Soviet Jews of particular value for years. Eventually, it was bound to be at least partially truthful?

    Synthesis on
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    DynagripDynagrip Break me a million hearts HoustonRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    395 members of Congress just voted to send another $255 Million to Israel.

    Go read some of the stuff being written about Keith Ellison, one of the eight who voted against it.

    God damn it. All morality of this conflict aside, Israel doesn't need this money as much as American citizens do. It blows my mind how quickly Congress is willing to sacrifice American interests for Israeli ones.
    a ton of that money is basically a handout to american defense contractors. give israel billions, israel immediately buys billions of military hardware. the worst thing i read is that Israel will take the money they're given by the US and then loan it back, collecting interest. that is so fucking wrong (and stereotype affirming).

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    Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    The idea of Jews magically converting to Christianity during the end times is one of many screwy ideas, especially considering that at least American Jews strongly dislike evangelical Christians.
    PF_14.07.16_interreligiousRelations_ALL.png

    Seems like a pretty tight competition between Atheists and Muslims for the most disliked group.

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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    the funniest is the evangelicals love the Jews but the Jews loathe the evangelicals

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    [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    In Iraq, ISIS has made gains against the Peshmerga (the Kurdish militia). The towns of Zumar and Sinjar, in the north west of the country have been taken. ISIS also controls Mosul dam. This is the 2nd (at least) hydroelectric dam they control. Aside from controlling electricity used by millions of people, the Mosul damn in particular is up-river from Mosul itself. For anyone wanting to take Mosul back from ISIS, it would seem to be prudent to re-take the dam first, lest they get any ideas.

    Here is a peice that guesses ISIS makes around 3 million dollars a day from selling oil. This has long been their strategy in Syria, and now that they're expanding their territory in both Syria and Iraq they're taking yet more oil fields. They can't run them properly, but even at a fraction of their operating capacity it amounts to a lot of oil. I really wonder who exactly is buying the stuff.

    edit: forgot link http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-makes-million-day-selling-oil-analysts/story?id=24814359

    I would imagine it's not that dissimilar from groups who buy oil from Iraqi Kurdistan--which in the past, if not still presently, was strictly against Iraqi and American policy. I remember reading that a lot was loaded on trucks and just drive to destination on the covert side, while a third-party tanker was just sailing around the region, looking for partial buyers.

    American policy has long been soft on the Kurds. There is lots of talk of a unified Iraq but Kurdish autonomy usually isn't threatened.

    Compare that to Libya. Groups in the east of the country (I can't really call them rebels anymore, there is no credible government or central power to rebel against) tried exporting their own oil. The tanker was boarded by US Navy SEALS.

    Granted, the US isn't in a position to halt oil smuggling along the border of Turkey, but the language used is also very different.

    mvaYcgc.jpg
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    [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    Dynagrip wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    395 members of Congress just voted to send another $255 Million to Israel.

    Go read some of the stuff being written about Keith Ellison, one of the eight who voted against it.

    God damn it. All morality of this conflict aside, Israel doesn't need this money as much as American citizens do. It blows my mind how quickly Congress is willing to sacrifice American interests for Israeli ones.
    a ton of that money is basically a handout to american defense contractors. give israel billions, israel immediately buys billions of military hardware. the worst thing i read is that Israel will take the money they're given by the US and then loan it back, collecting interest. that is so fucking wrong (and stereotype affirming).

    The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
    goes over this in fine detail. I haven't read the whole thing (it is a rather dry read, even by my standards) but if you want to know about money and political favours around Israel, this is the source you need.

    mvaYcgc.jpg
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    TroggTrogg Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I've been thinking about this Israel thing today, and I think I've finally figured out what's happened there.

    Basically, what's happened is that the Israelis have been surrounded by violent religious extremists for years, and now they've gone native.

    It's like in the film Apocalypse Now.

    Originally Colonel Kurtz was sent into the jungle with a bunch of guys in order to join up with some other local guys that were there and then kill the bad guys.

    But then, after a while, he just sort of went crazy and started running around the jungle killing everybody.

    Trogg on
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    Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    Trogg wrote: »
    I've been thinking about this Israel thing today, and I think I've finally figured out what's happened there.

    Basically, what's happened is that the Israelis have been surrounded by violent religious extremists for years, and now they've gone native.

    That presumes that they didn't start out as violent religious extremists. The ultra-Orthodox in Israel aren't comparable with Bapists in America. They're comparable with the snake-handlers in the backwoods who fall down on the floor and speak in tongues.


    They segregate their sidewalks and buses by sex, so men don't have to touch the women. That's how conservative they are.

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    MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    My impressions of the Kurds is that they're about the most progressive people in the region - I mean this isn't saying much but they are at least trying with their incredibly limited resources stretched thin by their war against ISIS or the Islamist State or whatever the hell they're calling themselves today. Iraqi Kurdistan banned female genital mutilation and honor killings (though it still happens - incredibly limited resources to prosecute) and women fight in the Peshmerga, and they're fine with having people of multiple cultures and religions all living together and side by side, which is why Christians and members of various small Muslim sects are fleeing to Kurdistan now. The reason why no nation will go out and help them directly is because of the political issues of all the surrounding countries that also have Kurdish populations, particularly Turkey. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

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    AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    The IDF has killed 1/1000th of Gaza's Palestinian population.

    Or, 9500 Swedes, 81000 Germans or 300,000 US citizens

    Absalon on
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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    the funniest is the evangelicals love the Jews but the Jews loathe the evangelicals

    Evangelicals want all the Jews to go to Israel so the world can end and Jesus can come and kill them.
    Not sure i would call that love.

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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    My impressions of the Kurds is that they're about the most progressive people in the region - I mean this isn't saying much but they are at least trying with their incredibly limited resources stretched thin by their war against ISIS or the Islamist State or whatever the hell they're calling themselves today. Iraqi Kurdistan banned female genital mutilation and honor killings (though it still happens - incredibly limited resources to prosecute) and women fight in the Peshmerga, and they're fine with having people of multiple cultures and religions all living together and side by side, which is why Christians and members of various small Muslim sects are fleeing to Kurdistan now. The reason why no nation will go out and help them directly is because of the political issues of all the surrounding countries that also have Kurdish populations, particularly Turkey. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

    This gets complicated, but IIRC most kurds belong to a fairly conservative school of Islam, by regional standards - not fundamentalist reactionaries that are outside conventional Islam like the Wahabis or Salafists but one of the more conservative traditional Sunni sects, but politically they are progressive, and this tends to be a big conflict in their society, but they've been busy fighting existential external conflicts so its been on the back burner.

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    QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Absalon wrote: »
    The IDF has killed 1/1000th of Gaza's Palestinian population.

    Or, 9500 Swedes, 81000 Germans or 300,000 US citizens
    Put another way, they killed more civilians in Gaza in two weeks than American drones have killed throughout the world since 2004.

    Ground invasions are deadlier than airstrikes.

    I don't think IDF soldiers are deliberately aiming civilians. But IDF ground troops respond to Hamas fire with artillery aimed in the general direction. This is probably why places like the UN school and hospitals get hit. I have never been in a war, I cannot speak to the decisions that must be made when soldiers come under fire in an urban area. But it does seem like responding with unguided artillery is criminally oblivious to collateral civilian damage. And I do wonder how many of these IDF soldiers who respond to attacks with artillery fire simply believe that a Palestinian civilian's life is worth significantly less than an IDF soldier's life.

    Qingu on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    Absalon wrote: »
    The IDF has killed 1/1000th of Gaza's Palestinian population.

    Or, 9500 Swedes, 81000 Germans or 300,000 US citizens
    Put another way, they killed more civilians in Gaza in two weeks than American drones have killed throughout the world since 2004.

    Ground invasions are deadlier than airstrikes.

    I don't think IDF soldiers are deliberately aiming civilians. But IDF ground troops respond to Hamas fire with artillery aimed in the general direction. This is probably why places like the UN school and hospitals get hit. I have never been in a war, I cannot speak to the decisions that must be made when soldiers come under fire in an urban area. But it does seem like responding with unguided artillery is criminally oblivious to collateral civilian damage. And I do wonder how many of these IDF soldiers who respond to attacks with artillery fire simply believe that a Palestinian civilian's life is worth significantly less than an IDF soldier's life.

    They don't just respond to fire that way though. They respond to seeing Hamas at all that way. The last UN school bombing (I love that we have to specify which one btw) they were shelling 3 guys on a motorbike. There's also incidents like the shooting at Al-Jazeera offices.

    I'd say the IDF has a general lack of concern for Palestinian civilian life and a low level of outright antipathy for those they view as "supporting the enemy" or "criticizing Israel" or whatever, like the UN or Al-Jazeera.

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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    the funniest is the evangelicals love the Jews but the Jews loathe the evangelicals

    Evangelicals want all the Jews to go to Israel so the world can end and Jesus can come and kill them.
    Not sure i would call that love.

    And the fact that nobody calls them out on their hypocrisy is staggering.

    Hamas wants to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews that won't convert? Then you got something in common cupcake!

    In fact how do they know if Hamas isn't a tool of the anti-Christ and by supporting Israel they are thwarting god's plan.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    QinguQingu Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    the funniest is the evangelicals love the Jews but the Jews loathe the evangelicals

    Evangelicals want all the Jews to go to Israel so the world can end and Jesus can come and kill them.
    Not sure i would call that love.

    And the fact that nobody calls them out on their hypocrisy is staggering.

    Hamas wants to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews that won't convert? Then you got something in common cupcake!

    In fact how do they know if Hamas isn't a tool of the anti-Christ and by supporting Israel they are thwarting god's plan.
    It's not hypocrisy. Or at least, it's no more hypocritical than any other facet of the evangelical belief that all non-Christians are doomed to hell.

    Evangelicals don't support Israel "so the world can end." The world will end regardless of who evangelicals support, because God is in control. They support Israel because they believe Jews are the chosen ones, which (some believe, at least) actually makes them allies against the armies of the anti-Christ in the inevitable eschatological war. Some interpretations of Revelation say that a select number of Jews will be saved in the end times.

    Evangelicals are also generally political conservatives. This means they are socially conservative and hate Muslims, which makes right-wing Israeli government a natural ally for perfectly mundane reasons.

    As I said, I think the evangelical position here gets mischaracterized.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/05/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
    "Mission accomplished," the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said on Twitter. "We have dismantled the underground terror network built by Hamas to infiltrate and attack Israel." The military said 32 tunnels were destroyed in the four-week conflict.
    God bless mission changing. Stopping the rockets would have been fairly impossible.

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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Qingu wrote: »
    Absalon wrote: »
    The IDF has killed 1/1000th of Gaza's Palestinian population.

    Or, 9500 Swedes, 81000 Germans or 300,000 US citizens
    Put another way, they killed more civilians in Gaza in two weeks than American drones have killed throughout the world since 2004.

    Ground invasions are deadlier than airstrikes.

    I don't think IDF soldiers are deliberately aiming civilians. But IDF ground troops respond to Hamas fire with artillery aimed in the general direction. This is probably why places like the UN school and hospitals get hit. I have never been in a war, I cannot speak to the decisions that must be made when soldiers come under fire in an urban area. But it does seem like responding with unguided artillery is criminally oblivious to collateral civilian damage. And I do wonder how many of these IDF soldiers who respond to attacks with artillery fire simply believe that a Palestinian civilian's life is worth significantly less than an IDF soldier's life.

    I'm not sure how you don't think that; there are numerous reports of them shooting at fleeing civilians with small arms, in just like the last page of this thread.

    6ylyzxlir2dz.png
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    SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033?pfrom=home-lateststories

    Saw this this morning, thought it was interesting. Indian television media crew filmed the set-up and launch of a Quassam last night (maybe one before, time zones) and morning.

    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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    Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Qingu wrote: »
    Absalon wrote: »
    The IDF has killed 1/1000th of Gaza's Palestinian population.

    Or, 9500 Swedes, 81000 Germans or 300,000 US citizens
    Put another way, they killed more civilians in Gaza in two weeks than American drones have killed throughout the world since 2004.

    Ground invasions are deadlier than airstrikes.

    I don't think IDF soldiers are deliberately aiming civilians. But IDF ground troops respond to Hamas fire with artillery aimed in the general direction. This is probably why places like the UN school and hospitals get hit. I have never been in a war, I cannot speak to the decisions that must be made when soldiers come under fire in an urban area. But it does seem like responding with unguided artillery is criminally oblivious to collateral civilian damage. And I do wonder how many of these IDF soldiers who respond to attacks with artillery fire simply believe that a Palestinian civilian's life is worth significantly less than an IDF soldier's life.

    I'm not sure how you don't think that; there are numerous reports of them shooting at fleeing civilians with small arms, in just like the last page of this thread.
    No IDF soldier will ever be punished for killing a palestine in what's happening now. Every corpse is painted as a legitimate hamas target and a victory for Israel. That, and the home opinion that the people on the other side of the walls are all subhuman scum anyway so why wouldn't you gun'em down and let Yaweh sort em out?

    Panda4You on
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    KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I'm reading thag a US major general and german brigadier general were killed in Afghanistan during an attack today (Can't link, on mobile). So that's not good.

    Edit: the german was injured, not killed

    KetBra on
    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    From what I read online it sounds like the american general was killed in a green on blue attack. Local afghan switching sides and attacking him. The attack took place in a training facility.

    ghost edit confirmed:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/05/world/asia/afghanistan-violence/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

    Green on Blue attack. Attacker shot dead.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    AsokolovAsokolov Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Qingu wrote: »
    I don't think IDF soldiers are deliberately aiming civilians. But IDF ground troops respond to Hamas fire with artillery aimed in the general direction. This is probably why places like the UN school and hospitals get hit. I have never been in a war, I cannot speak to the decisions that must be made when soldiers come under fire in an urban area. But it does seem like responding with unguided artillery is criminally oblivious to collateral civilian damage. And I do wonder how many of these IDF soldiers who respond to attacks with artillery fire simply believe that a Palestinian civilian's life is worth significantly less than an IDF soldier's life.

    There are many reports of IDF infantry firing on civilians in total absence of enemy fire:
    http://hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians
    http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.608532?v=E85FA8C9EEADE9C120A8BBF1BACE3915

    And I'm not sure whether or not you consider the UN to be a biased source in this conflict, but several leading UN officials have accused Israel of committing war crimes through deliberately killing civilians during this conflict.

    If you meant *most* IDF soldiers would not be deliberately killing civilians that would be probably true. But that would be a statement that would also be probably true for really almost any present or historical military force, even reviled extreme cases, so as any observation on a military's behavior during war it would be pretty banal.

    Outside the documented direct overt atrocities, things like choices on which weapons would be knowingly-inappropriately deployed into heavy urban combat, basic training meant to desensitize soldiers and make them less hesitant to killing anything that seems threatening, rules of engagement that demonstrably place many times more value on Israeli military lives than opposing civilian lives, and a military culture of near-total impunity for even the most extreme war crimes in the IDF all point to a more broadly deliberately criminal strategy on the part of Israeli military leadership intending civilian deaths directly and through destruction of critical essential infrastructure.

    The right-wing in Israel, even within Netanyahu's party, also came right out this time and started using rhetoric very overtly, openly, explicitly calling for ethnic cleansing and using phrases like 'enemy population' in those calls.

    Put another way: Israel killed as many or more civilians in Gaza during three weeks of bombardment/invasion than ISIS killed across all areas of Iraq they control or operate in during the same three weeks of near-peak intensity fighting.

    Asokolov on
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    Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    Apparently NATO also blew up a family's car on their way back from a wedding on the same day. Bad news all around.

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    programjunkieprogramjunkie Registered User regular
    It's still a war crime to target armed enemy forces, if you do so in such a way that the collateral damage is not in line with the anticipated military benefit. While that is an incredibly vague standard, considering the casualty numbers, well, I think you could begin to make a case on that. And by case, I mean the ICC should consider actual prosecution.

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    TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    It's still a war crime to target armed enemy forces, if you do so in such a way that the collateral damage is not in line with the anticipated military benefit. While that is an incredibly vague standard, considering the casualty numbers, well, I think you could begin to make a case on that. And by case, I mean the ICC should consider actual prosecution.

    I think the US can and will veto any attempt at anything resembling that.

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    Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    It's still a war crime to target armed enemy forces, if you do so in such a way that the collateral damage is not in line with the anticipated military benefit. While that is an incredibly vague standard, considering the casualty numbers, well, I think you could begin to make a case on that. And by case, I mean the ICC should consider actual prosecution.

    I think the US can and will veto any attempt at anything resembling that.

    We're not on the ICC

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    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    It's still a war crime to target armed enemy forces, if you do so in such a way that the collateral damage is not in line with the anticipated military benefit. While that is an incredibly vague standard, considering the casualty numbers, well, I think you could begin to make a case on that. And by case, I mean the ICC should consider actual prosecution.

    I think the US can and will veto any attempt at anything resembling that.

    We're not on the ICC

    And neither is Israel

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