Oh, last night I learned that rogue and feral durid combo points got changed and are player-based instead of target-based. So that was a little new since the last time I played.
Holy shit is everything in the world better with that.
The raids will be easier, because Normal has been downgraded to the difficulty that Flex was, so Normal is now easier.
That's not imaginary, that is the entire gist of the argument against LFR. And yes, LOOT is the center of the whole damn argument against LFR. The loot dropped in LFR in WoD is going to be different. That's exactly what has people upset. It won't look the same as the stuff from Normal, the trinkets won't be the same as Normal, there won't be any set bonuses like in Normal.
The whole argument is because doing LFR won't get you downgraded versions of the items dropped in Normal like it does now, and if that upsets people so much, then its just logical to reason that they are upset because they are not getting lower level versions of the same items dropped in Normal and they would very much prefer that.
The point, which you've managed to completely miss once again, is that Blizzard is putting forth EXTRA EFFORT to make the lower level versions specifically look and feel like "baby's first raid loot" and "noob's hand-me-down" items. Extra effort that could have been better spent doing other things, such as fixing the myriad bugs that have been running rampant on the Live servers. Or working on the Blood Elf remodels. Or adding in new challenge mode weapon graphics. Or a million other things.
All of which are not, basically, pointing at people that can't complete higher difficulty raids or dungeons (for whatever reason at all, be it time constraints or skill issues) and saying "HAHA" like Nelson from the fucking Simpsons.
I'm seriously starting to believe that I'm arguing with one of the "hardxcorez" people that brought about this fucking decision, it's nothing but the same ignorant reply asking for reasons after I, and others, have already given the reasons, spelled them out, given them again, spelled it out in a different fashion, and did that whole process AGAIN, and still the same fucking reply of not understanding the complaints. Do you speak English? Is it not your first language? Is it not your second? Or third? If there's a communication error happening here, please for the love of all that is holy, tell me so that I can find a translator so that you can understand what I am trying to tell you.
this kind of post does not really make you look like the reasonable one in the discussion
we're all typing in english, I think it's probably a safe assumption that we also speak it
Then please explain why my last 10 posts in this thread have not gotten my point across. This is the first time I've resorted to using any kind of disparaging terms (despite the fact that almost every reply to any point I make is filled with condescending remarks about "its so easy anyone can do"), because it's finally gotten on my nerves enough that I just said "fuck it" and stopped caring about trying to be productive and get my point across. I've stated the same things over and over and over again, only to replied to with the same questions and same comments about how it's so easy to get into groups now and that it's so much easier to find a community and other such things that have nothing what-so-ever to do with the topic.
Yet again the whole point is missed because someone's seeing something that's not related to the discussion at all, even though myself and others have gone to great lengths to make it as clear as possible, even using pictures to help accentuate the points.
Edit - In any case, I'm done with trying to explain my thoughts on this subject. If you still don't understand why I think the changes to LFR loot is a terrible idea, just go read my earlier posts again.
LFR has been unpleasant for a long time. Long ques for a chance to carry people that don't take the time to learn to play and expect you to carry them through content that's so easy you can ignore mechanics? I don't blame blizzard for not wanting to reward raid loot through this system. It will still be what it's been for me since it's inception. A place to see end game content and to raise alts and fill gaps in your current gear.
This x1000. LFR is always terrible whenever new content comes out and for a couple months after. I played for about a month sometime in the beginning of MoP and remember trying to do MSV LFR. It was useless and everyone just wiped a bunch of times to easy mechanics. I stopped for a bit due to work and started again after SoO had been out for a few months. I tried LFR and people were still stupid being killed by things like standing in fire or lasers or whatever. I queued up for lfr wearing full 550 pvp gear just to learn the fights a little so i wouldnt be clueless in flex/normal. It is completely unacceptable that wearing pvp gear with no hit gems to get the pve hit cap that i was pulling 30+% of the raids damage, people that run LFR should not be rewarded for just hanging on the coattails of someone that can push buttons in the right order.
I know people that have run lfr just to practice rotation, a new spec, or like me just wanted to get a little familiar with a fight. Having a raid be near guaranteed to fail unless they are being carried by someone is stupid, and I'm glad that I won't have to deal with raiding with 20 or so useless people in order to play with people that want to play the game rather than autofollow someone while watching netflix and getting gear for it.
To the people complaining about how the lfr gear looks like crap, well the tier gear mostly looks like crap too. The raiding gear in MoP mostly looks like crap as well. Blizzard's art department struggles with creating cool looking stuff regularly, which is why people exploded when they couldn't run old raids for like a day due to scaling issues. Burning crusade and vanilla gear is some of the most transmogged stuff I see regularly, and that stuff is 8-10 years old. It is almost no surprise to me anymore that most gear is going to look like crap, but they did put in some cool stuff with garrisons. Salvage yard can get the character creation armor for transmog and there are a couple other transmog things i can't remember.
As to the set bonus thing, I just fail to see how that matters. Most set bonuses are mediocre, and I didn't even bother with the set on my brewmaster, I just got the off-pieces from ordos and normal and the difference is barely there. On top of that Blizzard has basically phased out so many set bonuses. In vanilla and tbc there were set bonuses for the dungeons sets, low level sets (fang set), and even just some random weapon sets such as Dal rends, Hakkari warblades, and thekal and arlokks grasp. The last of those should be the type of things people get mad about as the set bonus for the claws is one of the coolest things in the game and isnt even attainable anymore. for those curious.
Removing the requirement of LFR in order to do higher tiers may actually serve to improve LFR. If it is full of the people that truly are casual and want to do the content rather than just afk farm it for gear the quality of the groups may actually improve. If that actually happens to be the case then LFR runs will only get faster and the people that do them because they don't have time for anything else may find some time to maybe sneak in a boss or two of a higher tier or find something else to do. LFR will still give gear upgrades to those that just leveled and they aren't taking out transmogs, so it will be just like in MoP where you get some upgrade and it looks like crap so you transmog it to something else.
That was kind of long but people seem to have this "the sky is falling" reaction to everything about WoD when it is actually doing a ton of things right.
Also everyone here is almost solely talking about PvE. Does anyone here even do PvP? The PvP at least at 90 is way more fun than it has been all of MoP, and they are making huge strides to make gearing less stupid in the expansion as well.
This is the first time I've resorted to using any kind of disparaging terms
Oh don't even. Almost every single one of your posts has held open hostility for Blizzard or raiders. When I made mention of the mantra of "fuck the casuals" I was specifically referring to your posts where you keep repeating it like a broken record.
Oh, last night I learned that rogue and feral durid combo points got changed and are player-based instead of target-based. So that was a little new since the last time I played.
Holy shit is everything in the world better with that.
Yes it is soooo awesome
And I agree they need to bring the sparkles back
Surprisingly, they didn't outright remove them.
Go to Interface-Display and switch Outline Mode to disabled.
+3
SaldonasSee you space cowboy...Registered Userregular
Oh, last night I learned that rogue and feral durid combo points got changed and are player-based instead of target-based. So that was a little new since the last time I played.
Holy shit is everything in the world better with that.
Yes it is soooo awesome
And I agree they need to bring the sparkles back
Surprisingly, they didn't outright remove them.
Go to Interface-Display and switch Outline Mode to disabled.
The outline is really good for bigger quest objectives, but it's damn near useless for tiny things that are hard to spot. I think I'll stick with the sparkles.
You answered your own question. That is the issue. Our answer is not to give us the same loot but keep the current system...
But that is the current system. The same gear, just with a reduced item level and different coloring.
Yes, what you described there is the current system. It's not the system in WoD. WoD removes the "same loot" part and gives loot that literally looks like rags, removes tier sets, removes trinkets with anything but stats on them, removes weapons, and removes battle pets. All of those removals are what people are angry about.
No one is trying to hold the changes up on a pedestal and say "Oh hey, this is WAY BETTER" I just don't think it's quite the end of the world scenario that some of you do, and I certainly don't think Blizzard is "fucking" anybody because of them.
The attitude is that with these LFR changes, LFR is just totally worthless and leaves people with zero recourse for any alternative. I also think this is a bit of an over reaction.
It's not. These changes are effectively Blizzard going "you're not being shut down but we're removing your funding." It's a complete gutting of LFR of how it is and removes a ton of incentives as to why people go there now. To put it in other terms, think of free mobile games like Clash of Clans or whatever. A majority of their revenue is generated by a tiny percent of their userbase who are effectively subsidizing the free play of the other players. Imagine if the game suddenly did something that caused all of those "whales" (as they're known) to abandon the game, all at once. That's what Blizzard is doing with LFR: they're making it so the people who make LFR work will no longer want to run LFR such that LFR will no longer work anymore.
-Reasons for overgeared people to go such as filling out tier sets, getting battle pets, getting trinkets, and getting transmog gear are all now gone, meaning the number of overpowered players (the lifeblood of most LFR runs) will be significantly reduced.
-Some of the reasons for non-raiders to go, like getting gear that looks like raid gear, the gear they're getting having fun procs and/or set bonuses, and the ability for battle pets to drop will be gone so less will go (many will quit instead of moving up to "real" raids)
-Mechanical reasons for why some people moved up to Flex from LFR in MoP is no longer there in WoD: the wing system. People who Flexed in MoP because the wing system provided them with a comfortable guarantee of how the raid would work are less likely to make the LFR>Normal leap in WoD since that's all gone.
-I don't know how the Legendary questline will work in WoD, but if it has maguffins that drop in Normal and above but not LFR, that'll also further stigmatize LFR as a "second class" way to run content.
With less overpowered people playing, runs will take longer and be more frustrating. With less people playing in general, queues will be longer. Even though WoD LFR has flex, flex doesn't do shit if you don't have any tanks or healers. With less people sticking around every week, the experience and knowledge levels of everyone will be just what the dungeon journal lists in its tl;dr summaries of the bosses at best, meaning every week a majority of every group will need to learn the encounters. When in MoP the LFRs were pretty terrible for the first few weeks after they were released it was because there was a lack of overpowered characters and a lack of experienced players. That terrible state will now be what WoD's LFR is like all the time, if not worse.
Another thing that I don't think has been touched on is disabled players who just physically or mentally cannot raid at the level required outside of LFR. Those players enjoyed feeling like they belonged in some capacity but now they're being stigmatized as second class citizens for only being able to run LFR.
The step is just much smaller and more widely accessible
The group is easier to get sure...doesn't change the raids difficulty or time needed...is there a language barrier here, what's going on?
There must be, because no matter how many times I try to explain that Normal raiding is now easier than Normal raiding has been before, and non-linear designs mean you don't have to commit to an entire raid all at once you keep missing it.
Difficulty has next to nothing to do with why a bunch of players don't hop up from LFR to Normal. Responsibility and commitment mean far more. LFR doesn't require anywhere close to either of those two things that raiding Normal require, unless Normal ends up being an absolute cakewalk. LFR doesn't ask players to do homework on strats, it doesn't care if they have enchants or gems, it doesn't ask them to farm consumables, it doesn't require negotiations before the raid to understand the boss order, it doesn't tell them at the last minute they're skipping the boss they wanted loot from, it doesn't goad them to continue past the preset 3 or 4 bosses they signed up for, it doesn't force them to start at the beginning of the raid every week, it doesn't ask them to sit on their hands and not quest while the group gets set up, it doesn't care if they have to leave early, it doesn't care if you don't want to chat on Vent, and it doesn't care if you arrive just for the final boss. All it cares about is that you meet an ilvl requirement (one that's lower than the gear that's being dropped) and which wing you want. That's it.
On the other hand, with Normals and above you're not dealing with an unfeeling machine, you're dealing with a human being. Now suddenly a lot of those things are expected: needing to meet the RL's arbitrary ilvl requirement that's often as high as the gear the raid drops, needing to meet the RL's achievement requirements where you'll need to have beaten the raid before you can pug for it, needing to have proper gearing/gemming/enchants, needing to know the boss strats, needing to commit to a specific timeframe that's generally longer than what you'd need to commit to for LFR ("we'll be raiding for the next 2 hours and going as far as we can" or "the raid will start at 6pm and go until 9"), needing to negotiate which bosses get fought ("we're taking the right branch tonight, so if you want a boss from the left branch you'll need to find another group"), needing to negotiate which loot system is used (personal or master), needing to join a voice chat server, needing negotiate how much you need to talk in said voice chat, and needing to profusely apologize if something comes up and you have to bail. A lot of people just don't want to deal with any of that.
The bottom line is this: Blizz is cutting off their nose to spite their face with this change. They're going to see many more people choose to quit because of the LFR changes than they'll see "elevated" to "real" raiding.
I know a few people who work at blizzard, and their design philosophy is "make it more fun." My guess at the LFR changes is that they don't see LFR as a particularly fun end-game goal for their subscribers and want to incentivize other activities. I've never really been part of a steady raiding group as I usually come into content late and only raid as a replacement after the group is farming that raid. Often the commitment to a set time or group just doesn't work for my dynamic work schedule. LFR worked perfectly for me, and it was fun to get tier armor and see raids that way, but I'll admit that the random groups were particularly toxic. Very few people take the time to even say hello much less explain strategies. LFR as a learning mechanic was about as helpful as trying to learn how to swim in an above-ground pool. So I can see the reasoning behind changing it. On the other hand, I think that Blizzard seriously misunderstands a fundamental concept about their core audience. Most people like to relax in their freetime and do hobbies they're comfortable with. Having to learn more advanced raids or research their rotations or any of those other complaints is sometimes just beyond the level of effort that many people want to put out. It's the same reason that I've played through the original Dark Souls a couple more times since getting Dark Souls 2; I'm comfortable with the content and it's still rewarding to me. I think that people who enjoy raiding and don't like the toxic environment of LFR will naturally go looking for more regular raids. Flex raiding sounds awesome and with the new battletag cross realm raiding sounds like one could have a lot of options for getting into that content.
If nothing else we seem to have a fair number of peeps on this board and Kamar is putting together a raid, so if you're reading this thread you've got somewhere to go.
Wait... How is it harder to learn to swim in an above ground pool than an in ground pool?
Each wing only takes 30 mins to down if there are no wipes. Until the late end of an LFR tier, there will always be wipes. People will not move out of Sha puddles, they will DPS Nazgrim during defensive stance, they will stand in the annihilate, they will stand in front of Thok, they will not get on the belt, they will not kill MC's.
I'd put each LFR at being, one average, over an hour long.
the four I did yesterday included only one wipe (well, two) on Lei Shin because the tank literally had no idea how to do the fight and people pulled early a couple times
otherwise the last two of ToT and first two of SOO were about 30 minutes each
SoO is 13 months old and had a hotfix yesterday to make it incredibly easy on every difficulty.
aha
yeah new content LFR is obviously going to be much longer as people learn stuff. but doing it right now is a breeze (except when tanks don't care to understand fights...)
and some wings are just forever awful. Like the forgotten depths with the turtle, miles of trash, and awful bird fight. yuck.
Actually that wing has among the least trash. 3 pulls to turtle. 4 pulls to first two bells, one to last bell. Run over water. One pull to tunnel. 3 snails and 2 flies (provided nobody steps on a web or glowy stupid), and you are at the bird. Most trash is wing 1.
also the thing with elvUI puzzled me a bit; the API shouldn't allow you to automate things that normally require hardware events. At most the guy could spam you with custom timers or other messages and (I think) cause you to /follow people, but not anything really awful.
From what I read he could make you say anything, emote anything, and issue commands like /gquit or even /gdisband.
Opty if LFR was only surviving because overgeared people were carrying everyone else then that just seems to me like a good reason for the changes. If an LFR group can't do a run without overgeared people carrying them then why do they deserve any kind of rewards? LFR is already incredibly easy if everyone took ten seconds an encounter to read up on the main details of the encounter, now helpfully separated into DPS/Healer/Tank info, located in the dungeon journal and not just try zerg method until Determination is capped.
Also, the raiders are not the whales. Not by a longshot. Whales are people who spend a ton of money on the game and raiders have other methods to make gold. Whales are the people buying every store pet, purchasing runs through the raids, buying battle pets, buying cosmetic items, buying transfers/race changes/faction changes, etc. Casual players are the whales more often than not, because they have plenty of money but not enough time to do everything they want.
Yeah, get rid of the need for overgeared people to carry LFR and just make LFR easier to compensate. For something like LFR, there's really no reason to attach any kind of skill ceiling at all.
Opty if LFR was only surviving because overgeared people were carrying everyone else then that just seems to me like a good reason for the changes. If an LFR group can't do a run without overgeared people carrying them then why do they deserve any kind of rewards? LFR is already incredibly easy if everyone took ten seconds an encounter to read up on the main details of the encounter, now helpfully separated into DPS/Healer/Tank info, located in the dungeon journal and not just try zerg method until Determination is capped.
Also, the raiders are not the whales. Not by a longshot. Whales are people who spend a ton of money on the game and raiders have other methods to make gold. Whales are the people buying every store pet, purchasing runs through the raids, buying battle pets, buying cosmetic items, buying transfers/race changes/faction changes, etc. Casual players are the whales more often than not, because they have plenty of money but not enough time to do everything they want.
The whale comparison was for effort, in that a small percent was enabling the majority. It has nothing to do with the finances, where the whales in WoW's case are on the more casual side as you mention.
On the "why do they deserve any rewards if they're not good" elitist bullshit, they deserve something because they're paying Blizzard money and it's a game. They get something that's not as good as the big boy toys but still gives them a taste and makes them feel good. If Blizz wants to keep making money off of these people then they should throw them a bone. If they don't want to, that's fine, but then they need to be prepared for the subscription fallout due to that stance.
Yeah, get rid of the need for overgeared people to carry LFR and just make LFR easier to compensate. For something like LFR, there's really no reason to attach any kind of skill ceiling at all.
Are you advocating making LFR completely trivial? Because I'd support that (make it into a sort of "sightseeing mode") as long as the following changes were made as well:
-LFR doesn't require tanks or healers: NPCs are provided to do those roles instead. This means a run starts every time 10 people queue and then fills up with people until it's 30 and a new group is started. If you're a tank or a healer then you can queue as that role but the NPCs will take care of everything so you won't have much to do
-Fight mechanics are identical to Normal, only they're completely trivialized (so for example stuff that would normally be instant death doesn't kill you) and since the healers are NPCs who can't run out of mana no matter how many mistakes you make your raid will eventually succeed.
And one of the two following gear solutions:
1) Make Heroic Dungeons a true seperate path from raiding
-LFR gear is all statless transmoggable loot of palette swapped Normal gear that has a high droprate.
-You can get tier drops from Heroic Dungeons, either actual raid tier or a new dungeon tier.
-Dungeons also drop trinkets with effects on par with raid trinkets, battle pets, mounts, and anything else fun like that mostly locked to raids
-A Mythic dungeon difficulty is added that better establishes Dungeoneering as being something you can do without raiding or to supplement raiding
-Every raid tier patch is accompanied by 3 or more new dungeons so there's a place to get that raid's new tier set (or dungeon tier set)
2) Keep the status quo: LFR gets you gear and dungeons are secondary to raids
-LFR gear is done just as it is now, being a scaled down version of Normal gear. The only alterations are coloration and lower stats. The difference in ilvl would be larger than it is now, so for example the launch LFR would give gear on par or worse than normal dungeons.
Basically I'm saying Blizz didn't go far enough with their neutering of LFR in WoD such that it's this diseased abomination groaning "kill me." You're still expected to perform fights correctly and can still wipe but you're incentivized far far less than now to do so, so it's going to be a shitty clusterfuck of groups wiping until they get enough fail stacks and finally brute force through.
Yeah I'd be in favor of basically all of those changes to LFR. If you want raiders to bypass LFR entirely, don't bother making it anything resembling raiding. Let people go in, see the content, and just mess around and have a blast
LFR eventually became a waking nightmare for me any time I tried to do it. Many time I'd give up trying to do it on my alts and just get on my BRM monk to carry the raid since otherwise my friends will never finish in a reasonable timeframe.
I solotanked the last wing of ToT 4-5 times because other tanks just had no idea what was even happening. And every time I'd try to come on a character that wasn't my main, i'd end up getting yelled at every wipe because I wasn't in T15 epics to do T14 LFR.
So for me the changes they've made seem fine. I just wish there was a 10m mythic difficulty, as my 10m guild is going to have a hellva time getting to 25 for that Besides that I really like what they're doing with this expansion.
Yeah it sucks that we'll never be able to do Mythic, but I understand their reasoning behind it. The best fights were always ones where specific classes got to creatively use their tools, and that's really tough to do when you're forced to balance for 10 man and can't plan for a certain class to ALWAYS be there.
Opty if LFR was only surviving because overgeared people were carrying everyone else then that just seems to me like a good reason for the changes. If an LFR group can't do a run without overgeared people carrying them then why do they deserve any kind of rewards? LFR is already incredibly easy if everyone took ten seconds an encounter to read up on the main details of the encounter, now helpfully separated into DPS/Healer/Tank info, located in the dungeon journal and not just try zerg method until Determination is capped.
Also, the raiders are not the whales. Not by a longshot. Whales are people who spend a ton of money on the game and raiders have other methods to make gold. Whales are the people buying every store pet, purchasing runs through the raids, buying battle pets, buying cosmetic items, buying transfers/race changes/faction changes, etc. Casual players are the whales more often than not, because they have plenty of money but not enough time to do everything they want.
The whale comparison was for effort, in that a small percent was enabling the majority. It has nothing to do with the finances, where the whales in WoW's case are on the more casual side as you mention.
On the "why do they deserve any rewards if they're not good" elitist bullshit, they deserve something because they're paying Blizzard money and it's a game. They get something that's not as good as the big boy toys but still gives them a taste and makes them feel good. If Blizz wants to keep making money off of these people then they should throw them a bone. If they don't want to, that's fine, but then they need to be prepared for the subscription fallout due to that stance.
Expecting competency is not elitist bullshit. If they cannot complete a run without being carried then they don't get the reward. If they can't take ten seconds to read the dungeon journal and proceed to wipe on a simple-to-avoid mechanic repeatedly they don't get the reward. If they don't put any effort into playing the game and rely on others to do the work for them then they don't get the reward.
Yeah, get rid of the need for overgeared people to carry LFR and just make LFR easier to compensate. For something like LFR, there's really no reason to attach any kind of skill ceiling at all.
Except there is a bare minimum of skill required for LFR already. The LFR is getting the loot it deserves. The bare minimum.
Opty if LFR was only surviving because overgeared people were carrying everyone else then that just seems to me like a good reason for the changes. If an LFR group can't do a run without overgeared people carrying them then why do they deserve any kind of rewards? LFR is already incredibly easy if everyone took ten seconds an encounter to read up on the main details of the encounter, now helpfully separated into DPS/Healer/Tank info, located in the dungeon journal and not just try zerg method until Determination is capped.
Also, the raiders are not the whales. Not by a longshot. Whales are people who spend a ton of money on the game and raiders have other methods to make gold. Whales are the people buying every store pet, purchasing runs through the raids, buying battle pets, buying cosmetic items, buying transfers/race changes/faction changes, etc. Casual players are the whales more often than not, because they have plenty of money but not enough time to do everything they want.
The whale comparison was for effort, in that a small percent was enabling the majority. It has nothing to do with the finances, where the whales in WoW's case are on the more casual side as you mention.
On the "why do they deserve any rewards if they're not good" elitist bullshit, they deserve something because they're paying Blizzard money and it's a game. They get something that's not as good as the big boy toys but still gives them a taste and makes them feel good. If Blizz wants to keep making money off of these people then they should throw them a bone. If they don't want to, that's fine, but then they need to be prepared for the subscription fallout due to that stance.
Expecting competency is not elitist bullshit. If they cannot complete a run without being carried then they don't get the reward. If they can't take ten seconds to read the dungeon journal and proceed to wipe on a simple-to-avoid mechanic repeatedly they don't get the reward. If they don't put any effort into playing the game and rely on others to do the work for them then they don't get the reward.
That's fine in 2004 when WoW was the only game in town, but it's not anymore. If Blizz wants to retain subs they need something like MoP's LFR to keep those people playing, otherwise they'll quit. We already saw this happen with Cata, the only difference now is the Garrison but I'm not sure if a Facebook game that takes place in WoW is enough for those people to cough up $15 a month.
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SaldonasSee you space cowboy...Registered Userregular
Instead of trying to list them all here, mmo-champion has a huge list of hotfixes from yesterday(today?). They included some SoO nerfs, class balancing, and a post about the changes made to old content being made harder (but maybe slightly easier than before 6.0).
God bless people who put up mats for non-insane prices. I needed to make the Snowmaster 9000 and crashing thrashing robot and was too lazy to farm the mats. Fortunately there was just enough for sell for non-crazy prices. Like I bought 20 snowballs for 10g while the rest where 300g plus for 4. Same for other mats, one listing for a normal price and the rest for 1k gold.
God bless people who put up mats for non-insane prices. I needed to make the Snowmaster 9000 and crashing thrashing robot and was too lazy to farm the mats. Fortunately there was just enough for sell for non-crazy prices. Like I bought 20 snowballs for 10g while the rest where 300g plus for 4. Same for other mats, one listing for a normal price and the rest for 1k gold.
I had just soloed Tempest Keep with extreme ease (I have soloed it before with a few deaths) when you guys started saying that it was no longer easy. I went back the next day with a lesser geared 90 (a fury warrior in the 476 range) and soled Tempest Keep, Black Temple, Serpentshrine Cavern (finally killing Lady Vashj!) with the same level of ease before the doom set in. I then went to Sartharion and soloed it soooo easily.
I also did Naxx and the only thing that almost killed me was swimming through the slime, cause I didn't know any better.
I have not hit ANYTHING higher than a level 80 dungeon so I can't comment on that but I am sure any 90 would have no problem with any of the dungeons/raids pre-cata.
Anyone else not able to log in characters? Just getting a "Character Not Found" error when I try to.
Servers. servers plz.
Me too, mostly the ones I actually wanted to touch. . . I'm leveling my Ally warlock instead at this point cause it was the first character the servers liked.
I don't know what the problem with auction addons is. They let me log on my bank alt, list my stuff, then log off until the next day. All it really does is scan the market and my formulae determine the price.
+2
SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
All this talk about raiding got me to finally go check out Ahn'Qiraj after all these years. Managed to solo my way through everything including C'thun. I had to go back to fight the slime boss after reading about his trick. As a mage, I didn't really have many easy options, but fortunately I was smart enough to keep that stupid Barov trinket that calls the three servants. That made it easy to kill him when he froze up.
I don't know what the problem with auction addons is. They let me log on my bank alt, list my stuff, then log off until the next day. All it really does is scan the market and my formulae determine the price.
It's mostly because Auctioneer is the most widely known one, and whenever you want to do a scan of it, it takes a fucking year and a half. There's other ways to do those things that aren't so time intensive, but they take a little while to set up.
I personally use TradeSkillMaster 2.0 for my auction stuff after finding the videos on how to set it up. It grabs auction data off the battle.net api thinger, so it only takes seconds instead of hours for a scan, and does exactly what you described.
I don't know what the problem with auction addons is. They let me log on my bank alt, list my stuff, then log off until the next day. All it really does is scan the market and my formulae determine the price.
It's mostly because Auctioneer is the most widely known one, and whenever you want to do a scan of it, it takes a fucking year and a half. There's other ways to do those things that aren't so time intensive, but they take a little while to set up.
I personally use TradeSkillMaster 2.0 for my auction stuff after finding the videos on how to set it up. It grabs auction data off the battle.net api thinger, so it only takes seconds instead of hours for a scan, and does exactly what you described.
Auctioneer has a quickscan feature that works in seconds too. Maybe you were accidentally doing the slow scan which goes page by page?
I don't know what the problem with auction addons is. They let me log on my bank alt, list my stuff, then log off until the next day. All it really does is scan the market and my formulae determine the price.
It's mostly because Auctioneer is the most widely known one, and whenever you want to do a scan of it, it takes a fucking year and a half. There's other ways to do those things that aren't so time intensive, but they take a little while to set up.
I personally use TradeSkillMaster 2.0 for my auction stuff after finding the videos on how to set it up. It grabs auction data off the battle.net api thinger, so it only takes seconds instead of hours for a scan, and does exactly what you described.
Auctioneer has a quickscan feature that works in seconds too. Maybe you were accidentally doing the slow scan which goes page by page?
My server is so overpopulated that the quick scan takes 10 minutes, and I haven't bothered with regular scan in years.
I don't know what the problem with auction addons is. They let me log on my bank alt, list my stuff, then log off until the next day. All it really does is scan the market and my formulae determine the price.
It's mostly because Auctioneer is the most widely known one, and whenever you want to do a scan of it, it takes a fucking year and a half. There's other ways to do those things that aren't so time intensive, but they take a little while to set up.
I personally use TradeSkillMaster 2.0 for my auction stuff after finding the videos on how to set it up. It grabs auction data off the battle.net api thinger, so it only takes seconds instead of hours for a scan, and does exactly what you described.
Auctioneer has a quickscan feature that works in seconds too. Maybe you were accidentally doing the slow scan which goes page by page?
It's highly likely. I haven't used it in a long time, so that might not have even been an option when I last tried with it.
No one is trying to hold the changes up on a pedestal and say "Oh hey, this is WAY BETTER" I just don't think it's quite the end of the world scenario that some of you do, and I certainly don't think Blizzard is "fucking" anybody because of them.
The attitude is that with these LFR changes, LFR is just totally worthless and leaves people with zero recourse for any alternative. I also think this is a bit of an over reaction.
It's not. These changes are effectively Blizzard going "you're not being shut down but we're removing your funding." It's a complete gutting of LFR of how it is and removes a ton of incentives as to why people go there now.
This is the leap of logic that I cannot follow. That the looks on the gear and set bonuses are the major reasons that people enter LFR and without them it will just wither and die.
LFR will still give the best gear available to non-raiders and will still allow everyone to see and experience all the raid content. Those two features are the driving force behind LFR and nothing has been altered there.
The idea that somehow LFR will become too hard for the average player seems laughable to me. It will be tuned around completion stats like always, even if it means nerfing it to the point where 5 people who actually tries their best can kill the bosses themselves.
Someone told me about this and I had to test it out, but if you have a rogue you can go pickpocket one of the named mobs at Nethergarde in the Blasted Lands quests and you can start with the new pickpocketing stuff from WoD. You get this whistle that summons a fence who buys random junk you pickpocket from people for a special currency that can be handed in for gold.
Posts
Yes it is soooo awesome
And I agree they need to bring the sparkles back
Then please explain why my last 10 posts in this thread have not gotten my point across. This is the first time I've resorted to using any kind of disparaging terms (despite the fact that almost every reply to any point I make is filled with condescending remarks about "its so easy anyone can do"), because it's finally gotten on my nerves enough that I just said "fuck it" and stopped caring about trying to be productive and get my point across. I've stated the same things over and over and over again, only to replied to with the same questions and same comments about how it's so easy to get into groups now and that it's so much easier to find a community and other such things that have nothing what-so-ever to do with the topic.
Yet again the whole point is missed because someone's seeing something that's not related to the discussion at all, even though myself and others have gone to great lengths to make it as clear as possible, even using pictures to help accentuate the points.
Edit - In any case, I'm done with trying to explain my thoughts on this subject. If you still don't understand why I think the changes to LFR loot is a terrible idea, just go read my earlier posts again.
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This x1000. LFR is always terrible whenever new content comes out and for a couple months after. I played for about a month sometime in the beginning of MoP and remember trying to do MSV LFR. It was useless and everyone just wiped a bunch of times to easy mechanics. I stopped for a bit due to work and started again after SoO had been out for a few months. I tried LFR and people were still stupid being killed by things like standing in fire or lasers or whatever. I queued up for lfr wearing full 550 pvp gear just to learn the fights a little so i wouldnt be clueless in flex/normal. It is completely unacceptable that wearing pvp gear with no hit gems to get the pve hit cap that i was pulling 30+% of the raids damage, people that run LFR should not be rewarded for just hanging on the coattails of someone that can push buttons in the right order.
I know people that have run lfr just to practice rotation, a new spec, or like me just wanted to get a little familiar with a fight. Having a raid be near guaranteed to fail unless they are being carried by someone is stupid, and I'm glad that I won't have to deal with raiding with 20 or so useless people in order to play with people that want to play the game rather than autofollow someone while watching netflix and getting gear for it.
To the people complaining about how the lfr gear looks like crap, well the tier gear mostly looks like crap too. The raiding gear in MoP mostly looks like crap as well. Blizzard's art department struggles with creating cool looking stuff regularly, which is why people exploded when they couldn't run old raids for like a day due to scaling issues. Burning crusade and vanilla gear is some of the most transmogged stuff I see regularly, and that stuff is 8-10 years old. It is almost no surprise to me anymore that most gear is going to look like crap, but they did put in some cool stuff with garrisons. Salvage yard can get the character creation armor for transmog and there are a couple other transmog things i can't remember.
As to the set bonus thing, I just fail to see how that matters. Most set bonuses are mediocre, and I didn't even bother with the set on my brewmaster, I just got the off-pieces from ordos and normal and the difference is barely there. On top of that Blizzard has basically phased out so many set bonuses. In vanilla and tbc there were set bonuses for the dungeons sets, low level sets (fang set), and even just some random weapon sets such as Dal rends, Hakkari warblades, and thekal and arlokks grasp. The last of those should be the type of things people get mad about as the set bonus for the claws is one of the coolest things in the game and isnt even attainable anymore. for those curious.
Removing the requirement of LFR in order to do higher tiers may actually serve to improve LFR. If it is full of the people that truly are casual and want to do the content rather than just afk farm it for gear the quality of the groups may actually improve. If that actually happens to be the case then LFR runs will only get faster and the people that do them because they don't have time for anything else may find some time to maybe sneak in a boss or two of a higher tier or find something else to do. LFR will still give gear upgrades to those that just leveled and they aren't taking out transmogs, so it will be just like in MoP where you get some upgrade and it looks like crap so you transmog it to something else.
That was kind of long but people seem to have this "the sky is falling" reaction to everything about WoD when it is actually doing a ton of things right.
Also everyone here is almost solely talking about PvE. Does anyone here even do PvP? The PvP at least at 90 is way more fun than it has been all of MoP, and they are making huge strides to make gearing less stupid in the expansion as well.
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Oh don't even. Almost every single one of your posts has held open hostility for Blizzard or raiders. When I made mention of the mantra of "fuck the casuals" I was specifically referring to your posts where you keep repeating it like a broken record.
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It's not. These changes are effectively Blizzard going "you're not being shut down but we're removing your funding." It's a complete gutting of LFR of how it is and removes a ton of incentives as to why people go there now. To put it in other terms, think of free mobile games like Clash of Clans or whatever. A majority of their revenue is generated by a tiny percent of their userbase who are effectively subsidizing the free play of the other players. Imagine if the game suddenly did something that caused all of those "whales" (as they're known) to abandon the game, all at once. That's what Blizzard is doing with LFR: they're making it so the people who make LFR work will no longer want to run LFR such that LFR will no longer work anymore.
-Reasons for overgeared people to go such as filling out tier sets, getting battle pets, getting trinkets, and getting transmog gear are all now gone, meaning the number of overpowered players (the lifeblood of most LFR runs) will be significantly reduced.
-Some of the reasons for non-raiders to go, like getting gear that looks like raid gear, the gear they're getting having fun procs and/or set bonuses, and the ability for battle pets to drop will be gone so less will go (many will quit instead of moving up to "real" raids)
-Mechanical reasons for why some people moved up to Flex from LFR in MoP is no longer there in WoD: the wing system. People who Flexed in MoP because the wing system provided them with a comfortable guarantee of how the raid would work are less likely to make the LFR>Normal leap in WoD since that's all gone.
-I don't know how the Legendary questline will work in WoD, but if it has maguffins that drop in Normal and above but not LFR, that'll also further stigmatize LFR as a "second class" way to run content.
With less overpowered people playing, runs will take longer and be more frustrating. With less people playing in general, queues will be longer. Even though WoD LFR has flex, flex doesn't do shit if you don't have any tanks or healers. With less people sticking around every week, the experience and knowledge levels of everyone will be just what the dungeon journal lists in its tl;dr summaries of the bosses at best, meaning every week a majority of every group will need to learn the encounters. When in MoP the LFRs were pretty terrible for the first few weeks after they were released it was because there was a lack of overpowered characters and a lack of experienced players. That terrible state will now be what WoD's LFR is like all the time, if not worse.
Another thing that I don't think has been touched on is disabled players who just physically or mentally cannot raid at the level required outside of LFR. Those players enjoyed feeling like they belonged in some capacity but now they're being stigmatized as second class citizens for only being able to run LFR.
Difficulty has next to nothing to do with why a bunch of players don't hop up from LFR to Normal. Responsibility and commitment mean far more. LFR doesn't require anywhere close to either of those two things that raiding Normal require, unless Normal ends up being an absolute cakewalk. LFR doesn't ask players to do homework on strats, it doesn't care if they have enchants or gems, it doesn't ask them to farm consumables, it doesn't require negotiations before the raid to understand the boss order, it doesn't tell them at the last minute they're skipping the boss they wanted loot from, it doesn't goad them to continue past the preset 3 or 4 bosses they signed up for, it doesn't force them to start at the beginning of the raid every week, it doesn't ask them to sit on their hands and not quest while the group gets set up, it doesn't care if they have to leave early, it doesn't care if you don't want to chat on Vent, and it doesn't care if you arrive just for the final boss. All it cares about is that you meet an ilvl requirement (one that's lower than the gear that's being dropped) and which wing you want. That's it.
On the other hand, with Normals and above you're not dealing with an unfeeling machine, you're dealing with a human being. Now suddenly a lot of those things are expected: needing to meet the RL's arbitrary ilvl requirement that's often as high as the gear the raid drops, needing to meet the RL's achievement requirements where you'll need to have beaten the raid before you can pug for it, needing to have proper gearing/gemming/enchants, needing to know the boss strats, needing to commit to a specific timeframe that's generally longer than what you'd need to commit to for LFR ("we'll be raiding for the next 2 hours and going as far as we can" or "the raid will start at 6pm and go until 9"), needing to negotiate which bosses get fought ("we're taking the right branch tonight, so if you want a boss from the left branch you'll need to find another group"), needing to negotiate which loot system is used (personal or master), needing to join a voice chat server, needing negotiate how much you need to talk in said voice chat, and needing to profusely apologize if something comes up and you have to bail. A lot of people just don't want to deal with any of that.
The bottom line is this: Blizz is cutting off their nose to spite their face with this change. They're going to see many more people choose to quit because of the LFR changes than they'll see "elevated" to "real" raiding.
Actually that wing has among the least trash. 3 pulls to turtle. 4 pulls to first two bells, one to last bell. Run over water. One pull to tunnel. 3 snails and 2 flies (provided nobody steps on a web or glowy stupid), and you are at the bird. Most trash is wing 1.
From what I read he could make you say anything, emote anything, and issue commands like /gquit or even /gdisband.
Also, the raiders are not the whales. Not by a longshot. Whales are people who spend a ton of money on the game and raiders have other methods to make gold. Whales are the people buying every store pet, purchasing runs through the raids, buying battle pets, buying cosmetic items, buying transfers/race changes/faction changes, etc. Casual players are the whales more often than not, because they have plenty of money but not enough time to do everything they want.
The whale comparison was for effort, in that a small percent was enabling the majority. It has nothing to do with the finances, where the whales in WoW's case are on the more casual side as you mention.
On the "why do they deserve any rewards if they're not good" elitist bullshit, they deserve something because they're paying Blizzard money and it's a game. They get something that's not as good as the big boy toys but still gives them a taste and makes them feel good. If Blizz wants to keep making money off of these people then they should throw them a bone. If they don't want to, that's fine, but then they need to be prepared for the subscription fallout due to that stance.
Are you advocating making LFR completely trivial? Because I'd support that (make it into a sort of "sightseeing mode") as long as the following changes were made as well:
-LFR doesn't require tanks or healers: NPCs are provided to do those roles instead. This means a run starts every time 10 people queue and then fills up with people until it's 30 and a new group is started. If you're a tank or a healer then you can queue as that role but the NPCs will take care of everything so you won't have much to do
-Fight mechanics are identical to Normal, only they're completely trivialized (so for example stuff that would normally be instant death doesn't kill you) and since the healers are NPCs who can't run out of mana no matter how many mistakes you make your raid will eventually succeed.
And one of the two following gear solutions:
1) Make Heroic Dungeons a true seperate path from raiding
-LFR gear is all statless transmoggable loot of palette swapped Normal gear that has a high droprate.
-You can get tier drops from Heroic Dungeons, either actual raid tier or a new dungeon tier.
-Dungeons also drop trinkets with effects on par with raid trinkets, battle pets, mounts, and anything else fun like that mostly locked to raids
-A Mythic dungeon difficulty is added that better establishes Dungeoneering as being something you can do without raiding or to supplement raiding
-Every raid tier patch is accompanied by 3 or more new dungeons so there's a place to get that raid's new tier set (or dungeon tier set)
2) Keep the status quo: LFR gets you gear and dungeons are secondary to raids
-LFR gear is done just as it is now, being a scaled down version of Normal gear. The only alterations are coloration and lower stats. The difference in ilvl would be larger than it is now, so for example the launch LFR would give gear on par or worse than normal dungeons.
Basically I'm saying Blizz didn't go far enough with their neutering of LFR in WoD such that it's this diseased abomination groaning "kill me." You're still expected to perform fights correctly and can still wipe but you're incentivized far far less than now to do so, so it's going to be a shitty clusterfuck of groups wiping until they get enough fail stacks and finally brute force through.
I solotanked the last wing of ToT 4-5 times because other tanks just had no idea what was even happening. And every time I'd try to come on a character that wasn't my main, i'd end up getting yelled at every wipe because I wasn't in T15 epics to do T14 LFR.
So for me the changes they've made seem fine. I just wish there was a 10m mythic difficulty, as my 10m guild is going to have a hellva time getting to 25 for that
Expecting competency is not elitist bullshit. If they cannot complete a run without being carried then they don't get the reward. If they can't take ten seconds to read the dungeon journal and proceed to wipe on a simple-to-avoid mechanic repeatedly they don't get the reward. If they don't put any effort into playing the game and rely on others to do the work for them then they don't get the reward.
Except there is a bare minimum of skill required for LFR already. The LFR is getting the loot it deserves. The bare minimum.
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WTB cross-faction, cross-server auction houses, please.
AH is already cross-faction now.
I also did Naxx and the only thing that almost killed me was swimming through the slime, cause I didn't know any better.
I have not hit ANYTHING higher than a level 80 dungeon so I can't comment on that but I am sure any 90 would have no problem with any of the dungeons/raids pre-cata.
Servers. servers plz.
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OK, so it's not just me
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Me too, mostly the ones I actually wanted to touch. . . I'm leveling my Ally warlock instead at this point cause it was the first character the servers liked.
It's mostly because Auctioneer is the most widely known one, and whenever you want to do a scan of it, it takes a fucking year and a half. There's other ways to do those things that aren't so time intensive, but they take a little while to set up.
I personally use TradeSkillMaster 2.0 for my auction stuff after finding the videos on how to set it up. It grabs auction data off the battle.net api thinger, so it only takes seconds instead of hours for a scan, and does exactly what you described.
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My server is so overpopulated that the quick scan takes 10 minutes, and I haven't bothered with regular scan in years.
It's highly likely. I haven't used it in a long time, so that might not have even been an option when I last tried with it.
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Oh, sweet, it Warforged!
Oh goddamnit, it was in a slot where I had a piece of gear from Ordos.
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This is the leap of logic that I cannot follow. That the looks on the gear and set bonuses are the major reasons that people enter LFR and without them it will just wither and die.
LFR will still give the best gear available to non-raiders and will still allow everyone to see and experience all the raid content. Those two features are the driving force behind LFR and nothing has been altered there.
The idea that somehow LFR will become too hard for the average player seems laughable to me. It will be tuned around completion stats like always, even if it means nerfing it to the point where 5 people who actually tries their best can kill the bosses themselves.
Also the new WoD stuff is in, which I guess isn't surprising. Now you can dress up your pug