The plunging attack for Taurus Demon is not even approaching cheese. It's clearly in the level design. They taught you how to do a plunging attack on the asylum demon, and then they let you have an opportunity to do it again to a boss without being told to do so. They also put lightning resins in the burg on the way to Taurus which he's weak to.
But yeah, obviously not all the "cheese" tactics are intended by the developers. Surely they didn't mean to make you able to shoot Manus to death with 2000 arrows without going in the boss fog. But who cares? If you wanna do it that way, fuck anybody who tries to diminish you for it. It's a Souls game. Nothing is fair, do what you want.
The plunging attack for Taurus Demon is not even approaching cheese. It's clearly in the level design. They taught you how to do a plunging attack on the asylum demon, and then they let you have an opportunity to do it again to a boss without being told to do so. They also put lightning resins in the burg on the way to Taurus which he's weak to.
That's not what we were talking about.
But yeah, obviously not all the "cheese" tactics are intended by the developers. Surely they didn't mean to make you able to shoot Manus to death with 2000 arrows without going in the boss fog. But who cares? If you wanna do it that way, fuck anybody who tries to diminish you for it. It's a Souls game. Nothing is fair, do what you want.
"Right way. . ." was perhaps too strict. Just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game to be honest. I mean I see all these "git gud" posts, and then we're talking about essentially unintended AI patterns or clipping through fog doors. . .
I loved "cheesing" Ceaseless Discharge and getting him to fall to his death. Though It's not exactly cheesing because he has unique animations for that death.
He jumps too far, clings onto the cliff with his hands barely holding on like Mufassa and trying to pull himself up, and you attack his hands gripping the cliff like Scar to make him fall to his death.
Of course. I read up on how some folks call that "cheese", but it's quite clearly designed into the game. Same as getting the Iron Rube to crumble over the side of the cliff.
I simply can't see the developers thinking "Ok, let's make it so the player never raises the platform and The Dragonrider - who has been guarding this platform forever - lunges off the side of the fighting area, or straight line paths to you from the narrow entrance to the platform and walks off the side."
I mean the developers can't plan for ever way a player is going to play the game. This is why I like playing these games blind for as long as possible; means you'll bang your head against the wall trying to defeat the bosses or enemies in gladiator style combat.
The developers actually did intend this with the dragon rider, that's why the levers are optional and do not gate progress. It's meant to be a reverse game trope: Oh look some levers that will make the fight "easier", which they do if you intend to fight him straight up...but if you don't use the levers, if you resist that temptation, there is an even easier way to do it.
I don't think you're giving From enough credit here. That room being designed the way it is, with a boss that can lunge himself off the edge, the levers being completely optional, and to date no move to fix it by From, shows just how intentional it was.
I feel like the levers with Dragonrider were designed to make the fight "harder" if you have to fight him on a tiny platform without using them because his weapon has pretty big reach. I don't think From intended to have him falling off if you time his steps perfectly and let him lunge at you. I think that was just a happy discovery that a speedrunner made because that's what they do.
Joshmvii on
0
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited March 2015
I disagree 100%. That whole zone is built to allow you to get the knights to fall of ledges. That is the trope of the entire Heide's Tower of Flame. It was intentional. From will fix things when they are truly not meant to be there (wall walking to skip areas, etc). They have yet to fix the Dragonriders AI to not lunge himself off ledges.
How could they fix the AI so that it doesn't lunge off the platform, or get juked by pathing issues? The Dragonrider will literally walk from the narrow ledge to the fighting arena with a nice gap in between and think nothing of it.
And in my entire playthrough of that area, or watching others I have seen ONE person force that first knight off the ledge and that was taking advantage of the fact that the AI will, regardless of room, perform a move that will take them over the side. Same thing with the single enemy on the bridge at the Iron Keep and those weird fetish dudes on the bridge to Chariot Boss.
I've never seen a quote from the dev saying "Yes. Completely as designed. . ."
From didn't fix the ability to throw firebombs and cheese the bed of chaos or shoot Manus with arrows and the hawkeye ring from outside the boss fog. It doesn't mean those were intended things.
There's no way for us to know, but I definitely think the levers and the dragonrider is a case of "use levers to make fight easier," not "we're cleverly making it so if you don't use the levers you can make the guy fall off. Unless we can ask the guys who designed it, we can't get a solid answer, and I'm the first guy to think From is brilliant at designing, but I just don't see it.
From didn't fix the ability to throw firebombs and cheese the bed of chaos or shoot Manus with arrows and the hawkeye ring from outside the boss fog. It doesn't mean those were intended things.
Wait wait wait. You can cheese the Bed of Chaos? How? If ever there was a boss that shouldn't be fought properly it's her.
I would think From would enjoy seeing what ways people can cheese the game that they never even thought of. I could just see a bunch of them gathered around a YouTube video and letting out a simultaneous, "Huh."
From didn't fix the ability to throw firebombs and cheese the bed of chaos or shoot Manus with arrows and the hawkeye ring from outside the boss fog. It doesn't mean those were intended things.
Wait wait wait. You can cheese the Bed of Chaos? How? If ever there was a boss that shouldn't be fought properly it's her.
In case anyone didn't know. . .Bloodborne is out in LITERALLY less than a weeks time.
Also Bosses:
Can talk shit?!
And there are some covenant rumors going around which, honestly I feel are just too bullshit. I mean, it would be amazing if true and actually gets me excited about "forced multiplayer" - which of course means it wont be true.
After dragging my feet for far too long I finally sauntered into one of the local EB Games in town and dropped my money on a Bloodborne Collector's Edition preorder. Paid in full. Hoping that I don't walk in next Tuesday at 10am sharp and hear they didn't get enough copies to fulfill their preorders.
$101 after tax. Living in Canada is just great for gaming...sigh.
After dragging my feet for far too long I finally sauntered into one of the local EB Games in town and dropped my money on a Bloodborne Collector's Edition preorder. Paid in full. Hoping that I don't walk in next Tuesday at 10am sharp and hear they didn't get enough copies to fulfill their preorders.
$101 after tax. Living in Canada is just great for gaming...sigh.
Yeah... lots of companies are re-adjusting prices for our weaker dollar. Apple among them.
Funny that. When the dollar is strong, prices never go down... but the moment it's weak, blammo! Prices go up.
From didn't fix the ability to throw firebombs and cheese the bed of chaos or shoot Manus with arrows and the hawkeye ring from outside the boss fog. It doesn't mean those were intended things.
There's no way for us to know, but I definitely think the levers and the dragonrider is a case of "use levers to make fight easier," not "we're cleverly making it so if you don't use the levers you can make the guy fall off. Unless we can ask the guys who designed it, we can't get a solid answer, and I'm the first guy to think From is brilliant at designing, but I just don't see it.
Having been in QA in game development I'm almost positive that the Manus cheese was left in on purpose. QA had to know it existed. There was not reason at all to have a hole in the terrain in that exact spot. Or even to have Manus already spawned in that exact position. They could have easily just moved him over a few feet in game and the cheese wouldn't have worked. It may be that they didn't intentionally design it that way but I'm pretty sure they knowingly left it in there.
I thought about doing digital but I can't stay up that late to play it with a lecture in the morning. I figured I might as well just go physical. I can't say I'll never trade the game in, though I do still have an original release of Demon's Souls on PS3.
I had the CE on preorder but decided to go with the standard and pick up the Collector's strategy guide instead. Not sure how useful the guide will be but I rather have some of the artwork on a bigger format.
When does the strategy guide ship? I really dug Future Press' DS2 guide - even though I never use it my first time through, it is CHOCK FULL of useful info.
Also, I'm going digital. I will be playing this at 12:01 AM. I booked a week off work and I am gonna get the most out of it.
Souls bosses are usually already spawned behind the fogs, the fogs aren't triggers to spawn most of them. You can also kill one of the Maneaters in Demon's Souls with a bow before entering the fog.
I don't believe that Manus or Maneaters had the ability to shoot them with arrows before going into the boss fog intentionally designed into the fights. I agree that From didn't care to fix it after they became aware, but I just don't think they did it on purpose to start.
The spot where you shoot Manus is not just some little hole left there for you. It's just shooting from atop a ledge because there's a narrow walkway that leads to the boss fog and he's down below. And I don't doubt at all that their QA people missed the fact that you could do this. Or they just didn't care once they did realize.
My point was never about them knowing about it, my point is that I don't think they knowingly designed it so you could do it in the first place.
When does the strategy guide ship? I really dug Future Press' DS2 guide - even though I never use it my first time through, it is CHOCK FULL of useful info.
Also, I'm going digital. I will be playing this at 12:01 AM. I booked a week off work and I am gonna get the most out of it.
It says the 24th on amazon but I placed it on a separate order just to be on the safe side.
After dragging my feet for far too long I finally sauntered into one of the local EB Games in town and dropped my money on a Bloodborne Collector's Edition preorder. Paid in full. Hoping that I don't walk in next Tuesday at 10am sharp and hear they didn't get enough copies to fulfill their preorders.
$101 after tax. Living in Canada is just great for gaming...sigh.
Yeah... lots of companies are re-adjusting prices for our weaker dollar. Apple among them.
Funny that. When the dollar is strong, prices never go down... but the moment it's weak, blammo! Prices go up.
Yes, it's pretty funny how that works. The $15 increase over the last year sealed the deal for me buying console games brand new with a few exceptions. Unfortunately I don't think there's an end in sight so it'll likely continue to be a case of me waiting on deals.
Souls games are one of the few exceptions. Even if the $101 isn't really worth it for the Collector's Edition...I've got all the "special edition" releases for Demon's onwards so I had to keep tradition going. I've yet to not get my money's worth out of one so I don't mind splurging.
I'm debating the digital route this time. I don't see myself ever trading it in, and I'm not getting the CE. Why bother with the case?
I go physical when I can because I don't want to fill up my HD any time soon.
Same. Not to mention that with digital prices being the same as physical there is very little incentive to go ditigal in the first place - disc swapping not included of course.
Anyone know when the preload starts in the US? I'd prefer going digital cause waiting for the UPS driver sucks but I'm on pretty shitty internet so it'll probably take a couple days to download.
Anyone know when the preload starts in the US? I'd prefer going digital cause waiting for the UPS driver sucks but I'm on pretty shitty internet so it'll probably take a couple days to download.
I'm pretty sure the countdown suggests preload will start at 12:01am on Tuesday, which I think is also what the pre-order blurb says in the PSN store.
Anyone know when the preload starts in the US? I'd prefer going digital cause waiting for the UPS driver sucks but I'm on pretty shitty internet so it'll probably take a couple days to download.
I'm pretty sure the countdown suggests preload will start at 12:01am on Tuesday, which I think is also what the pre-order blurb says in the PSN store.
Tuesday as in today or next Tuesday i.e. launch day?
Someone was streaming this yesterday, and the load times after dying were insanely long. A bunch of people in the chat were saying the game will get a day one patch that will address that. Any word on that?
Just checked: it says the "expected auto-download date" is 3/22/2015, with the countdown indicating that the game will be playable at 12:01 am on the 24th.
Someone was streaming this yesterday, and the load times after dying were insanely long. A bunch of people in the chat were saying the game will get a day one patch that will address that. Any word on that?
There is a Day One patch. No one has ANY idea what it actually is. Just a bunch of wishful thinking. Personally I'd like a reduction in load times, however if they have (wishful thinking) load time flavor text I'd be fine with that.
I think most of it is going to be Chalice Dungeon tweaks. I really do wish developers would give information about what is in these Day 1 patches to give an idea of what performance/gameplay tweaks are being adjusted.
Just checked: it says the "expected auto-download date" is 3/22/2015, with the countdown indicating that the game will be playable at 12:01 am on the 24th.
Thanks.
2 days should be enough. Now to grab $60 in PSN cards.
Someone was streaming this yesterday, and the load times after dying were insanely long. A bunch of people in the chat were saying the game will get a day one patch that will address that. Any word on that?
There is a Day One patch. No one has ANY idea what it actually is. Just a bunch of wishful thinking. Personally I'd like a reduction in load times, however if they have (wishful thinking) load time flavor text I'd be fine with that.
I think most of it is going to be Chalice Dungeon tweaks. I really do wish developers would give information about what is in these Day 1 patches to give an idea of what performance/gameplay tweaks are being adjusted.
I've heard some rumors
GAMEPLAY MECHANIC SPOILERS
So you've probably seen the "Beasthood" stat in the menus. Right now, it doesn't do anything, not even maxing it. Supposedly the devs withheld the "important mechanic" already mentioned in media coverage still under NDA related to this - turning into a beast or somesuch - for a day 1 patch to keep it a surprise until the release day.
Posts
But yeah, obviously not all the "cheese" tactics are intended by the developers. Surely they didn't mean to make you able to shoot Manus to death with 2000 arrows without going in the boss fog. But who cares? If you wanna do it that way, fuck anybody who tries to diminish you for it. It's a Souls game. Nothing is fair, do what you want.
That's not what we were talking about.
"Right way. . ." was perhaps too strict. Just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game to be honest. I mean I see all these "git gud" posts, and then we're talking about essentially unintended AI patterns or clipping through fog doors. . .
https://medium.com/@alascii
The developers actually did intend this with the dragon rider, that's why the levers are optional and do not gate progress. It's meant to be a reverse game trope: Oh look some levers that will make the fight "easier", which they do if you intend to fight him straight up...but if you don't use the levers, if you resist that temptation, there is an even easier way to do it.
I don't think you're giving From enough credit here. That room being designed the way it is, with a boss that can lunge himself off the edge, the levers being completely optional, and to date no move to fix it by From, shows just how intentional it was.
And in my entire playthrough of that area, or watching others I have seen ONE person force that first knight off the ledge and that was taking advantage of the fact that the AI will, regardless of room, perform a move that will take them over the side. Same thing with the single enemy on the bridge at the Iron Keep and those weird fetish dudes on the bridge to Chariot Boss.
I've never seen a quote from the dev saying "Yes. Completely as designed. . ."
https://medium.com/@alascii
There's no way for us to know, but I definitely think the levers and the dragonrider is a case of "use levers to make fight easier," not "we're cleverly making it so if you don't use the levers you can make the guy fall off. Unless we can ask the guys who designed it, we can't get a solid answer, and I'm the first guy to think From is brilliant at designing, but I just don't see it.
Wait wait wait. You can cheese the Bed of Chaos? How? If ever there was a boss that shouldn't be fought properly it's her.
I didn't do it when I played Dark Souls, but I wouldn't blame anybody for doing it, because Bed of Chaos is a terribly designed fight.
Also Bosses:
And there are some covenant rumors going around which, honestly I feel are just too bullshit. I mean, it would be amazing if true and actually gets me excited about "forced multiplayer" - which of course means it wont be true.
$101 after tax. Living in Canada is just great for gaming...sigh.
Yeah... lots of companies are re-adjusting prices for our weaker dollar. Apple among them.
Funny that. When the dollar is strong, prices never go down... but the moment it's weak, blammo! Prices go up.
Also, I'm going digital. I will be playing this at 12:01 AM. I booked a week off work and I am gonna get the most out of it.
I don't believe that Manus or Maneaters had the ability to shoot them with arrows before going into the boss fog intentionally designed into the fights. I agree that From didn't care to fix it after they became aware, but I just don't think they did it on purpose to start.
The spot where you shoot Manus is not just some little hole left there for you. It's just shooting from atop a ledge because there's a narrow walkway that leads to the boss fog and he's down below. And I don't doubt at all that their QA people missed the fact that you could do this. Or they just didn't care once they did realize.
My point was never about them knowing about it, my point is that I don't think they knowingly designed it so you could do it in the first place.
It says the 24th on amazon but I placed it on a separate order just to be on the safe side.
I go physical when I can because I don't want to fill up my HD any time soon.
Yes, it's pretty funny how that works. The $15 increase over the last year sealed the deal for me buying console games brand new with a few exceptions. Unfortunately I don't think there's an end in sight so it'll likely continue to be a case of me waiting on deals.
Souls games are one of the few exceptions. Even if the $101 isn't really worth it for the Collector's Edition...I've got all the "special edition" releases for Demon's onwards so I had to keep tradition going. I've yet to not get my money's worth out of one so I don't mind splurging.
Same. Not to mention that with digital prices being the same as physical there is very little incentive to go ditigal in the first place - disc swapping not included of course.
Steam ID: 76561198021298113
Origin ID: SR71C_Blackbird
I'm pretty sure the countdown suggests preload will start at 12:01am on Tuesday, which I think is also what the pre-order blurb says in the PSN store.
There is a Day One patch. No one has ANY idea what it actually is. Just a bunch of wishful thinking. Personally I'd like a reduction in load times, however if they have (wishful thinking) load time flavor text I'd be fine with that.
I think most of it is going to be Chalice Dungeon tweaks. I really do wish developers would give information about what is in these Day 1 patches to give an idea of what performance/gameplay tweaks are being adjusted.
Not to be "that guy."
2 days should be enough. Now to grab $60 in PSN cards.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=BUnQP0Ky9Fo
I've heard some rumors
GAMEPLAY MECHANIC SPOILERS
Steam ID: 76561198021298113
Origin ID: SR71C_Blackbird