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Depression and Mental Illness and Maybe Something Happier Like Puppies

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Posts

  • WormWomanWormWoman Registered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    WormWoman wrote: »
    Hey, I've got depression. Depression is a common thing but it makes you feel so isolated from the world. Sometimes you don't want to free yourself from the four walls, a ceiling and a floor that depression puts you in but its always good to feel that someone, somewhere knows what you're going through. That's why I enjoy spreading words of goodwill to anyone who has gone through this and many other difficult mental disorders. They may be invisible but they make a big difference.

    Fortunately, though depression may sit around tirelessly guarding your metaphorical escape route, he/she/it/they/depression is very easy to catch off guard. Simply busy yourself and get yourself involved in any kind of activity, solo or together with friends writing, swimming, cat sitting, jogging, listening to music, watching tv, even talking about anything with anyone, hell even talking about depression is a way you can slip past your depression's defenses.

    It may seem futile if you sit around, but understand, mobility is the key. If you can mobilize yourself to go on an adventure and get a goal, your mind will start filling up with much more positive thoughts and concepts; Why do I want to achieve this goal? what will I do to accomplish this goal? How can I prepare myself for the things I need to do to succeed? What will happen when I succeed? And how can I pick myself up and try again if I fail? When you move and get a goal, brand new thoughts will flock to your head like butterflies and give you plenty more stuff to focus on and energize you.

    Hell, you could even do what I'm doing to sort through my depression. Writing bits of advice and stuff you've found might work in order to sneak you away from that ol' watchdog of depression!

    Of course the rather common comorbidity makes going and doing things and expecting them not to go wrong, and noticing limited successes and improvements rather difficult.

    Sort if having someone you can talk about your fears with, who can be objective, keep you at it, encourage and root for you can really help. And, well, that can be hard for someone who cares and has to watch you still be miserable--so maybe paying someone isn't a bad idea.

  • WormWomanWormWoman Registered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    WormWoman wrote: »
    Hey, I've got depression. Depression is a common thing but it makes you feel so isolated from the world. Sometimes you don't want to free yourself from the four walls, a ceiling and a floor that depression puts you in but its always good to feel that someone, somewhere knows what you're going through. That's why I enjoy spreading words of goodwill to anyone who has gone through this and many other difficult mental disorders. They may be invisible but they make a big difference.

    Fortunately, though depression may sit around tirelessly guarding your metaphorical escape route, he/she/it/they/depression is very easy to catch off guard. Simply busy yourself and get yourself involved in any kind of activity, solo or together with friends writing, swimming, cat sitting, jogging, listening to music, watching tv, even talking about anything with anyone, hell even talking about depression is a way you can slip past your depression's defenses.

    It may seem futile if you sit around, but understand, mobility is the key. If you can mobilize yourself to go on an adventure and get a goal, your mind will start filling up with much more positive thoughts and concepts; Why do I want to achieve this goal? what will I do to accomplish this goal? How can I prepare myself for the things I need to do to succeed? What will happen when I succeed? And how can I pick myself up and try again if I fail? When you move and get a goal, brand new thoughts will flock to your head like butterflies and give you plenty more stuff to focus on and energize you.

    Hell, you could even do what I'm doing to sort through my depression. Writing bits of advice and stuff you've found might work in order to sneak you away from that ol' watchdog of depression!

    Of course the rather common comorbidity makes going and doing things and expecting them not to go wrong, and noticing limited successes and improvements rather difficult.

    Sort if having someone you can talk about your fears with, who can be objective, keep you at it, encourage and root for you can really help. And, well, that can be hard for someone who cares and has to watch you still be miserable--so maybe paying someone isn't a bad idea.

    Well, I'm here for anyone who wants to report on trying new things to get away from depression and would like to talk about their success or failure. I feel happy to hear of other people's lives, I feel honored that they'd trust me with something as important as that!

    redx
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2014
    Echo wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Much of that feeds into problems with notions of self. There was a group, that I cannot find now, whose members embraced their particular mental quirks, and so lived lives as schizophrenics, bi-polars, etc. without medication. They made the "This is who I am" declaration, and so treating any symptom would be an attempt to remove parts of their sense of self.

    I had my first serious depression when I was 17, and I struggled a lot with that. Would this medicine help me... or change me? Would it effectively remake me into a different personality? I blame a lot of this on being a teenager, later I was all "screw it, gimme them SRIs."

    I still have a lot of those thoughts about my Asperger diagnosis. (Like, an actual doctor-says-so, not internet-self-diagnosed kind). And it's even harder to define a line where you end and the diagnosis begins. That line is a whole lot blurrier than in a depression. (But that's for a different thread.)

    Yeah. Most of us are raised in a culture wherein the mental is who we truly are, and the physical is this shell / car the mental drives around. The shell can be damaged without our "self" being damaged. But when the mental is quirky / defective, then *I* am quirky / defective. Yey Descartes.

    It would not be that difficult to take Darwin seriously, and so talk about "an organism" that does things. But we have a hard time getting over that hump.

    Suffice it to say that seeking out treatment for depression, or another mental / psychological problem, is not a declaration that there is something wrong with you, any more than having pneumonia is a problem with you.


    Edit: Actually, I have an example from yesterday. Though a series of events I ended up going to Rifftrax with a lady I had never met before. After the movie we hung out at my place. After talking for a few hours she said, "I'm going to ask you something that might offend you. Do you have asperger's?"

    One would not preface "Do you have chicken pox?" in that way.

    Again, the weird mental / physical divide that likely prevents some people from seeking out treatment.

    _J_ on
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    My depression is a shell that has kept so many good things from me. It's really tragic that depression generally starts off as a way to guard you from the bad things. And that once it takes hold of you, even if you do fight it and stop most of the habits it can come back quickly, and if you don't recognize it happening it's like putting on and old pair of gloves.

    I may be wrong on this, but to me depression is very close to being a recovering addict. One slip up and it's back, stronger than ever before.

    No I don't.
    ceres
  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Is it generally accepted that Depression is completely unrelated to life events (Nature vs. Nurture)? I was not aware of that. I certainly feel that when I began suffering from depression, what was going on in my life certainly made me more susceptible to it. Not necessarily a trigger, but a weakening of my mental immune system, if you will.

    I'm sorry, this was in response to a post up thread I read earlier but I'm on my phone and it's a pain in the ass to find the quote and insert it now...

    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    redx wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Mortious wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Go watch this TED talk right away. It's great.

    This particular quote hits me really close to home.
    You don't think in depression that you've put on a gray veil and are seeing the world through the haze of a bad mood. You think that the veil has been taken away, the veil of happiness, and that now you're seeing truly. It's easier to help schizophrenics who perceive that there's something foreign inside of them that needs to be exorcised, but it's difficult with depressives, because we believe we are seeing the truth.

    That TED talk, plus the two Hyperbole and a Half about depression capture it very well.
    Adventures in Depression
    Depression Part 2

    I have done the therapy thing a few times, and am taking meds now. I had assumed everyone felt this way, since it is how I have felt since...well, puberty, really, except for one time in undergrad when I was happy. My most recent doctor mentioned the possibility that I have Dysthymia. When he explained it, my reaction was

    "That's a thing? Because you are describing me. I am a thing?"

    So, yeah. Dysthymia is a thing. Or, well, not in the DSM-5. It has a new name. But anyway. Many people with persistent depressive disorder, from what I understand, do not think of themselves as depressed because they do not experience the fluctuations from happy to sad; it's just always shitty, and you just kinda roll with the shittiness.

    That is what I would tell people about depression. If things are always shitty for you, there may be a way to change that.

    Help is available, there is no shame in asking for it, and things can maybe get better.


    Edit: Also

    http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1098693/original.jpg

    Dysthymia is when you are the rabbit, and reality is always like that pancake.

    huh, interesting.
    is a mood disorder consisting of the same cognitive and physical problems as in depression, with less severe but longer-lasting symptoms.
    The essential symptom involves the individual feeling depressed for the majority of days and parts of the day for at least two years. Low energy, disturbances in sleep or in appetite, and low self-esteem typically contribute to the clinical picture as well. Sufferers have often experienced dysthymia for many years before it is diagnosed. People around them often describe the sufferer in words similar to "just a moody person".

    Thanks _J_

    Yarp.

    I still go back and forth on whether or not depression is a disease, in the sense that pneumonia is a disease. That is one of the reasons I put off medication for so long.

    But eventually I realized that we don't need to quibble over whether this manner-of-being is a disease or not. I feel shitty. Enough other people feel the same kind of shitty that we have a name for it. And some people produced a substance they say and make things less shitty.

    Disease or not, it would be neat if I could feel the kind of happy other people describe. So, yey therapy and drugs.

    Something wrong with you from the start vs something you catch. Depression is something that is wrong with you, pneumonia is something you catch. It's not wrong to consider them different... just as a cancer you get through genetics isn't exactly the same as something you get through your environment.

    Except, really almost all the time there are issues of genetic disposition, historical environmental exposure, and accute even I on mental factors.


    Like the pneumonia. Some folk have really strong immune systems. They won't get it. Most folks are otherwise pretty health, have been in conditions that make it unlikely and don't have other issues going on. Even people in poorish heath with non amazing systems still need to acquire a respiratory infection.

    Most cancers work the same way, and largely instances of depression aren't that different. Some people just have shitty emotional immune systems, and depression makes it hard to have health habits and a good environment, so... there can be nasty spirally synergistic effects, so some people get depressed often, because they are exposed to things that caused it, and are generally more prone to it.

    Or someshit. I've spent most of my life really pretty unhappy. Not being depressed is amazing.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, just that society views "was born with an issue and thus ill" and "an external factor made them ill" as different issues. Genetically it makes sense, fear of the flawed contaminating the gene pool is something that all animals act on, and is why we place such a premium on certain physical attributes. The world is a harsh place, and pretending humans are anything but more advanced and thus more vicious animals is christian fundie crap.

    I don't agree with it, but I can understand why society acts the way it does around some things, it's instinct that allowed us to get where we are.

    What would be great is removing the connotations from the healthy / ill terminology, the "disease" terminology, etc.

    Much of that feeds into problems with notions of self. There was a group, that I cannot find now, whose members embraced their particular mental quirks, and so lived lives as schizophrenics, bi-polars, etc. without medication. They made the "This is who I am" declaration, and so treating any symptom would be an attempt to remove parts of their sense of self.

    If the conversation could have all the nonsense stripped away, to be like this
    • Your habits-of-being seem to be X.
    • Here are some other people whose habits-of-being are X.
    • Here are those same people, after taking pills Z, and talking with a therapist. We call their new habits-of-being Y.
    • Would you be interested in trying to be Y, instead of X? Here are a list of benefits that you could gain from Y, and here are the current benefits you have from X.

    That seems like a sane conversation that avoids all the connotations and arguments about "true self" and most of the nonsense involved in conversations about mental whatnots. No diseases or disorders. No connotations of worth or value.

    Just collections of habits-of-being.

    You seem to be really X. Would you like to be Y? Y people smile sometimes, and that smile relates to a felt state of happiness. You like happiness, right?

    This post reminds me of one of my favorite passages in one of my favorite books - Cryptonomicon by Stephenson.

    One character narrates to another, who has problems with morphine addiction, that in Germany there is no word for "morphine addict" and talks about how such a word annihilates the underlying person. Instead, that person is said to be "morphine-seeking", and not even -ing but technically "morphine-seeky" - even more of a temporally transitory state.

    tERiPJd.jpg
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Much of that feeds into problems with notions of self. There was a group, that I cannot find now, whose members embraced their particular mental quirks, and so lived lives as schizophrenics, bi-polars, etc. without medication. They made the "This is who I am" declaration, and so treating any symptom would be an attempt to remove parts of their sense of self.

    I had my first serious depression when I was 17, and I struggled a lot with that. Would this medicine help me... or change me? Would it effectively remake me into a different personality? I blame a lot of this on being a teenager, later I was all "screw it, gimme them SRIs."

    I still have a lot of those thoughts about my Asperger diagnosis. (Like, an actual doctor-says-so, not internet-self-diagnosed kind). And it's even harder to define a line where you end and the diagnosis begins. That line is a whole lot blurrier than in a depression. (But that's for a different thread.)

    One of the things that happened as I became an adult, partially because of other things going on in my life (transition, mostly) was that I sort of stopped being concerned about things making me into a different person. I started reframing everything from "will this change me?" to "I'm going to be changing no matter what, and I get to decide how."

    I am not sure if that framing will help other people, but I certainly think it's true. We are ever evolving creatures, our selves constantly changing as time flows onward. I don't think the question is really "will this change me" but "which fork should I take."

    YogoPLASurfpossumInfamyDeferredThe Ender
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    Is it generally accepted that Depression is completely unrelated to life events (Nature vs. Nurture)? I was not aware of that. I certainly feel that when I began suffering from depression, what was going on in my life certainly made me more susceptible to it. Not necessarily a trigger, but a weakening of my mental immune system, if you will.

    I'm sorry, this was in response to a post up thread I read earlier but I'm on my phone and it's a pain in the ass to find the quote and insert it now...

    that's a really complicated web to unweave. Depression definitely has a genetic component. but triggering the actual symptoms can rely heavily on life events. there are some people who will always get hit by and then there's others it will kick in when things are tough. It should also be noted depression over the long term makes physical changes to your brain chemistry and development so in a way it perpetuates itself.

    redx
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    My depression is a shell that has kept so many good things from me. It's really tragic that depression generally starts off as a way to guard you from the bad things. And that once it takes hold of you, even if you do fight it and stop most of the habits it can come back quickly, and if you don't recognize it happening it's like putting on and old pair of gloves.

    I may be wrong on this, but to me depression is very close to being a recovering addict. One slip up and it's back, stronger than ever before.

    Like drug addiction depressions make real physical changes to your brain chemistry. Thats one thing people don't often talk about. Medications for depression are a way to balance things out long enough that given the right reinforcement can help your brain to heal.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    Is it generally accepted that Depression is completely unrelated to life events (Nature vs. Nurture)? I was not aware of that. I certainly feel that when I began suffering from depression, what was going on in my life certainly made me more susceptible to it. Not necessarily a trigger, but a weakening of my mental immune system, if you will.

    Like nexus said, it's complicated. As I understand it, depression is akin to bipolar disorder in that one's reaction / interpretation does not jive with events.
    • If your dog dies, and you get sad, that makes sense.
    • If you lose your home, and you get sad, that makes sense.
    • If someone buys you a house and a dog, and you want to crawl in a hole and hide, that kinda doesn't make sense.

    But as you said, some people seem to trigger off of life events, but then get stuck in a rut, so to speak.

    A depressed person is not necessarily sad about some particular thing or event, unless "life" counts.

    Feral
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    Is it generally accepted that Depression is completely unrelated to life events (Nature vs. Nurture)?

    No. That is not generally accepted at all.

    Depression can have internal (endogenous) causes, external (exogenous) causes, or any combination thereof.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    EchoGnome-InterruptusCorehealerredxCalicajoshofalltrades
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Depressed people experience "sadness" out of proportion to the tragedy. If a loved one dies, it is completely normal to grieve - to lose your appetite, sleep quality, motivation, character - but at some point your homeostatic and survival mechanisms should kick in and heal your psyche. If that takes too long to happen or doesn't happen, something confounding is probably going on.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
    _J_
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    They're exaggerations of normal psychological states which is why a diagnosis of chronic depression require the it last months first.

    Feral
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Clinically relevant depressive episodes can last as little as two weeks (at a time)

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    My depression is hitting me super hard right now. It's taking all my willpower to type this with my phone while in bed. Kind of late to talk to someone, though.

    Gnome-InterruptusCalica
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    The only thing I can say is that it is really really weird being a crazy person and knowing you're a crazy person.

    That is a very odd lens.

    steam_sig.png
    ceres
  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    I'm kind of freaked out right now, because my doctor denied my antidepressant refill, and I have no idea when I'll be able to get an appointment with him because he's two hours away and I work all week. It's just, I can feel myself starting to backslide, you know? It's not the emotional stuff that's freaking me out, it's the mental stuff. I can feel the fogginess and forgetfulness starting to come back.

    It's some Flowers for Algernon shit.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
    Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
    Gnome-InterruptusCalica
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular

    It's some Flowers for Algernon shit.

    That is one thing about being medicated that freaked me out.

    steam_sig.png
    Tommatt
  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    I know it doesn't work for everyone, but it did wonders for me. It really did. And I really need to get back on it.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
    Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Can you ask your doc for a work note

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    The thing is I haven't seen the doctor in a long time, I'm perfectly functional when medicated. I've finally gotten a steady part time job, and I'm doing alright. It's just, he's two hours away, four by bus, I'm starting to come apart at the seems, and some of my symptoms are bouts of paranoia and frustration at trivial things, so I'm kind of a mess right now. I'll be okay during the week, it's just these weekend stretches alone are bad for me.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
    Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    I myself suffer from General Anxiety Disorder, most commonly (but not always) in relation to social situations. I don't have any difficulty talking with people I've known for quite a while; conversation happens with no effort. However, with most people, I get a feeling like a pressure in my chest and find myself rehearsing in my head what I'm going to say (and frequently end up not even saying anything). I don't even get any satisfaction in saying what I've planned; it just feels forced.

    I'm really not certain what to do to improve my condition. I already take 200 mg of Zoloft and 25 mg of Metoprolol every day. Even after seeing a therapist for several months I didn't feel any better. I'm not certain what else I can do.

    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Hexmage (or anyone really)

    Perhaps exploring mindfulness meditation may be of some benefit. It can assist in heightening your awareness of the mental and physical symptoms associated with anxiety and depression. Part of it is learning to experience some of this awareness non judgementally. Like, when you are experiencing negative thinking, you can learn to break it down and observe, accepting that these thoughts are occurring without attaching yourself to them in terms of things like guilt or shame and the like. Like when a social thought or action feels forced, acknowledge that, but allow it to go by without the neccesity of the feeling of forcedness. So your internal monologue may be saying more just the simple fact of it feeling forced without so much of the oh damn I'm foolish for sounding like this. After all those feelings aren't permanent, they pass by, and you can observe them in a manner of sorts.

    In regards to physical symptoms, you would learn to attend to breathing or other sensory perception, while sort of letting your attention flow, so if you become distracted, either internally(a thought/memory) or externally(sounds/actions), you simply let these distractions come in and pass by, leaving aside the kind of guilty associations made with distractions. Kind of like if you were having the pressure feeling in your chest, you would acknowledge that feeling but instead of feeling like things are getting fucked up you would just think "yep I have that feeling in my chest again" just as if you cut a finger you likely wouldn't dwell on a judgement of how or why its cut, you would maybe wince at the pain but move on.

    I may not be offering the best description of this, so further research may be useful. Meditation may sound suspicious to some, though apparently mindfulness has some grounding in psychological research, but I am not qualified to offer thorough insight into the matter. I think it bears more credence than something like NLP though.

    Lucid on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2014
    Lucid wrote: »
    Hexmage (or anyone really)

    Perhaps exploring mindfulness meditation may be of some benefit. It can assist in heightening your awareness of the mental and physical symptoms associated with anxiety and depression. Part of it is learning to experience some of this awareness non judgementally. Like, when you are experiencing negative thinking, you can learn to break it down and observe, accepting that these thoughts are occurring without attaching yourself to them in terms of things like guilt or shame and the like. Like when a social thought or action feels forced, acknowledge that, but allow it to go by without the neccesity of the feeling of forcedness. So your internal monologue may be saying more just the simple fact of it feeling forced without so much of the oh damn I'm foolish for sounding like this. After all those feelings aren't permanent, they pass by, and you can observe them in a manner of sorts.

    My last therapist was really into Mindfulness. She gave me these links to Mindfulness audio files for guided meditation. They are free, and from legitimate sources.

    Mindfulness Audio Files and Exercises
    Free Guided Meditations

    Mindfulness did not work for me. Maybe some of you will find it helpful.


    Edit: One of the problems I had with Mindfulness was my inability to discern what the hell it was trying to talk about on an abstract level. The article Dialectics of mindfulness kind of helped me at least understand some of the philosophical underpinnings of the system. If you get hung up on the same problems as me, you might find that article to be helpful.
    If the goal of Mindfulness is to be non-judgementally aware of depressed thoughts, then there has to be some thing independent of the depressed thought that is aware of the judging. And if that thing is me, then the depressed thoughts would be external to me. But, then, what is the thing having the depressed thoughts? And what is the relationship between my self, and the source of those depressed thoughts?

    Like this damn exercise. "we cannot choose what comes into our minds and what we feel. We can only choose what we pay attention to and how we pay attention to internal events."

    What is the thing that pays attention, exactly? This makes it sound like "I" am a "Tupperware of awareness" within which thoughts and feelings occur. But, then, I am something other than thoughts and feelings? What is that thing independent of thoughts and feelings? It's not that *I* am depressed, but rather there are depressed thoughts / feelings within my hollow container-like self?

    BAH

    Anyway. Didn't work for me.

    _J_ on
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    J

    In regards to 'depressed thoughts', what is the distinction with this and the emotions occurring associated with negative thinking, or are you just substituting depressed with negative in this case?

    If I'm following, maybe what you're describing is like any observation of self circumstance. Like , have you ever caught yourself while experiencing an emotion or reaction to something almost as if you were watching it happen? ,"oh I'm laughing now" or something like that. I can recall instances when I have heard myself speak and while a word is uttered, I have some sort of sense of how it sounds slightly off from my usual modulation. My internal self can do stuff while making external things happen. I imagine an actor may experience this more readily, observing an emotion for a scene while being detached from the associations implied in the character. They perhaps would not care that they are faking it so to speak.

    Maybe this isn't quite what you're getting at though.

    Lucid on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2014
    Lucid wrote: »
    J

    In regards to 'depressed thoughts', what is the distinction with this and the emotions occurring associated with negative thinking, or are you just substituting depressed with negative in this case?

    If I'm following, maybe what you're describing is like any observation of self circumstance. Like , have you ever caught yourself while experiencing an emotion or reaction to something almost as if you were watching it happen? ,"oh I'm laughing now" or something like that. I can recall instances when I have heard myself speak and while a word is uttered, I have some sort of sense of how it sounds slightly off from my usual modulation. Like my internal self can do stuff while making external things happen. I imagine an actor may experience this more readily, observing an emotion for a scene while being detached from the associations implied in the character. They perhaps would not care that they are faking it so to speak.

    Maybe this isn't quite what you're getting at though.

    This Exercise

    "Your goal is to notice any thoughts and images and your emotional responses to such thoughts and images as they are." There is me. That me is to notice thoughts, images, emotional response to thoughts, and emotional response to images.

    Seems to look like this

    [thought]
    ....|......\
    ....|......[emotional response to Thought]
    [Me] <
    ....|.....[emotional response to image]
    ....|...../
    [image]

    Why are there these gaps between me, thoughts, images, emotional reactions to them? And wouldn't my perception of the thing be skewed by my emotional response to it? Or can I clearly discern the thought independent of the emotional response that may be had to it. There seems to be very little to me. Yet this me is bombarded with thoughts, images, emotional responses, etc. that come from....somewhere? What is the me in this system? How does the me relate to the source of these thoughts, images, emotional responses?

    Me is not thought, image, emotional response to thought or image.

    What Am I?!

    Me is...a noticing thing. Thinking is secondary, something to be observed. So I cannot be a thinking thing. Because if I were a thinking thing, then I would be the thinking of thoughts, without any need to notice them, since they were already thought.

    I just want a clear articulation of what "I" is, within this system. Right now, the I seems to be a thing into which thoughts, images, and emotions bump. Where does history fit into this? Is that external to the I as well?

    Those sorts of questions.

    Edit: Not trying to start an argument in the thread about the metaphysics of Mindfulness. This is all summary of what I said to my therapist, and why she came to strongly dislike our sessions.

    _J_ on
  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Lucid wrote: »
    J

    In regards to 'depressed thoughts', what is the distinction with this and the emotions occurring associated with negative thinking, or are you just substituting depressed with negative in this case?

    If I'm following, maybe what you're describing is like any observation of self circumstance. Like , have you ever caught yourself while experiencing an emotion or reaction to something almost as if you were watching it happen? ,"oh I'm laughing now" or something like that. I can recall instances when I have heard myself speak and while a word is uttered, I have some sort of sense of how it sounds slightly off from my usual modulation. Like my internal self can do stuff while making external things happen. I imagine an actor may experience this more readily, observing an emotion for a scene while being detached from the associations implied in the character. They perhaps would not care that they are faking it so to speak.

    Maybe this isn't quite what you're getting at though.

    This Exercise

    "Your goal is to notice any thoughts and images and your emotional responses to such thoughts and images as they are." There is me. That me is to notice thoughts, images, emotional response to thoughts, and emotional response to images.

    Seems to look like this

    [thought]
    ....|......\
    ....|......[emotional response to Thought]
    [Me] <
    ....|.....[emotional response to image]
    ....|...../
    [image]

    Why are there these gaps between me, thoughts, images, emotional reactions to them? And wouldn't my perception of the thing be skewed by my emotional response to it? Or can I clearly discern the thought independent of the emotional response that may be had to it. There seems to be very little to me. Yet this me is bombarded with thoughts, images, emotional responses, etc. that come from....somewhere? What is the me in this system? How does the me relate to the source of these thoughts, images, emotional responses?

    Me is not thought, image, emotional response to thought or image.

    What Am I?!

    Me is...a noticing thing. Thinking is secondary, something to be observed. So I cannot be a thinking thing. Because if I were a thinking thing, then I would be the thinking of thoughts, without any need to notice them, since they were already thought.

    I just want a clear articulation of what "I" is, within this system. Right now, the I seems to be a thing into which thoughts, images, and emotions bump. Where does history fit into this? Is that external to the I as well?

    Those sorts of questions.

    Edit: Not trying to start an argument in the thread about the metaphysics of Mindfulness. This is all summary of what I said to my therapist, and why she came to strongly dislike our sessions.

    It looks to me like the crucial distinction is deciding. Me is a deciding thing; notice and attention are just subsets of things Me decides to do. Images, emotions and (some) thoughts arise unbidden in the mind, but the deciding part can manage responses to them, to an extent.

    I don't know that such a distinction makes much sense psychologically or neurologically, though.

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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Lucid wrote: »
    J

    In regards to 'depressed thoughts', what is the distinction with this and the emotions occurring associated with negative thinking, or are you just substituting depressed with negative in this case?

    If I'm following, maybe what you're describing is like any observation of self circumstance. Like , have you ever caught yourself while experiencing an emotion or reaction to something almost as if you were watching it happen? ,"oh I'm laughing now" or something like that. I can recall instances when I have heard myself speak and while a word is uttered, I have some sort of sense of how it sounds slightly off from my usual modulation. Like my internal self can do stuff while making external things happen. I imagine an actor may experience this more readily, observing an emotion for a scene while being detached from the associations implied in the character. They perhaps would not care that they are faking it so to speak.

    Maybe this isn't quite what you're getting at though.

    This Exercise

    "Your goal is to notice any thoughts and images and your emotional responses to such thoughts and images as they are." There is me. That me is to notice thoughts, images, emotional response to thoughts, and emotional response to images.

    Seems to look like this

    [thought]
    ....|......\
    ....|......[emotional response to Thought]
    [Me] <
    ....|.....[emotional response to image]
    ....|...../
    [image]

    Why are there these gaps between me, thoughts, images, emotional reactions to them? And wouldn't my perception of the thing be skewed by my emotional response to it? Or can I clearly discern the thought independent of the emotional response that may be had to it. There seems to be very little to me. Yet this me is bombarded with thoughts, images, emotional responses, etc. that come from....somewhere? What is the me in this system? How does the me relate to the source of these thoughts, images, emotional responses?

    Me is not thought, image, emotional response to thought or image.

    What Am I?!

    Me is...a noticing thing. Thinking is secondary, something to be observed. So I cannot be a thinking thing. Because if I were a thinking thing, then I would be the thinking of thoughts, without any need to notice them, since they were already thought.

    I just want a clear articulation of what "I" is, within this system. Right now, the I seems to be a thing into which thoughts, images, and emotions bump. Where does history fit into this? Is that external to the I as well?

    Those sorts of questions.

    Edit: Not trying to start an argument in the thread about the metaphysics of Mindfulness. This is all summary of what I said to my therapist, and why she came to strongly dislike our sessions.

    I don't think anyone is going to be able to explain the brain to you as a clearly defined system with concrete rules. Nobody really knows how this stuff works. If it helps, you can think it more as inspecting your memories rather than your thoughts. You remember how you felt a moment ago and what you were thinking just before that, and so by analyzing that you can infer that thinking certain things makes you feel a certain way. Doing that sort of analysis regularly gives you a perspective that makes it easier to resist those thoughts in the future.

  • TommattTommatt Registered User regular
    Depression is a mother fucker, and it's hard to even realize you're suffering from it. I've been dealing with it for at least a year, although looking it's been longer than that. Took me a good 6 months to realize it. Woke up one day realized I had dropped 60lbs and had been getting drunk everyday I just couldn't eat. I was just eating enough to sustain myself and keep getting sick from drinking. I did 90 days no drinking, and tried to get help but the shrink was horrible. Luckily I was able to find someone I could trust, and who would just listen, and tell me that everything I was feeling was normal and ok. My feelings are my feelings.

    I still suffer from it, even without realizing it sometimes and I'm working on it. Life likes to keep coming at me and unfortunate events seem to happen, and it really seems happiness is just something that will forever elude me. But I'm working on it, and ry to stay positive and find stuff to do that makes me happy. The worst part is that feeling of being left out and having no friends. It makes it so you can't reach out to people to see what's going on. Like last night, I'm at the fair with friends and seeing a concert but we're all split up. Afterwards I look for everyone, don't see anyone, so I do my own thing for a bit, send a text to the person least likely to get back with me, and then get down that I got ditched. I could have tried to get ahold of someone else, but when you're dealing with these feelings, you don't want to. You really need people to reach out to you. It's really easy to feel alone and wonder why everyone else gets to find their happiness.

    This was meant to be just a "it's hard to recognize, but here's how I did finally if you feel you might be" because it is hard to look at ourselves truly and see what's going on. I mean, I couldn't be depressed, that's for other people, right? I feel that's how many of us feel, and then embarassed too, I mean I do not ever want to go on anti depressants, but why? Why do they scare me so much? And I'm sure it scares others, so we don't recognize it and don't talk about it.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    My depression was tangled up in anxiety, where I would be afraid to do anything I might fail at, or ask for things that might be rejected, because failing or being rejected would make me feel more depressed.

    Eventually I realized that I needed help, but was still unable to seek it out on my own, thankfully some family members saw the signs and that I wasn't able to handle it on my own, and helped me seek help by getting me appointments that I asked for because I just couldn't get the motivation/energy to schedule them on my own.

    I'm now on some very light anti-anxiety / anti-depressant (10mg once a day), and feel like I'm starting to see an end to the tunnel.

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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    per the OP I'll keep this brief since you're not supposed to talk about things currently ongoing, but I want to say thank you to @_J_ for linking to the wiki article about Dysthymia. I've been to several therapists in my life and I've never once even heard of it. This seems to describe my personal condition a lot closer than clinical depression, and it's something I'm going to bring up with my doctor.

    So thanks, _J_.

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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    per the OP I'll keep this brief since you're not supposed to talk about things currently ongoing, but I want to say thank you to _J_ for linking to the wiki article about Dysthymia. I've been to several therapists in my life and I've never once even heard of it. This seems to describe my personal condition a lot closer than clinical depression, and it's something I'm going to bring up with my doctor.

    So thanks, _J_.

    @Raiden333 I am glad the post helped. When you talk to your doctor, remember this part:
    The DSM-5, the 5th edition of the DSM, was released in May 2013 and includes a number of changes. In this edition, dysthymia is replaced by persistent depressive disorder. This new condition includes both chronic major depressive disorder and the previous dysthymic disorder. The reason for this change is that there was no evidence for meaningful differences between these two conditions.

  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Noted, thank you.

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    The thing is I haven't seen the doctor in a long time, I'm perfectly functional when medicated. I've finally gotten a steady part time job, and I'm doing alright. It's just, he's two hours away, four by bus, I'm starting to come apart at the seems, and some of my symptoms are bouts of paranoia and frustration at trivial things, so I'm kind of a mess right now. I'll be okay during the week, it's just these weekend stretches alone are bad for me.

    You know how the meds work - slow. Don't wait until things get really bad to fix the problem because you're going to have to wait even more until they kick in again.

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  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    Meh.

    I mean, like it is a technical definition found in a book created by a politically driven committee.

    Content of the DSM should be taken with about the same sized grain of salt as Leviticus.

    If dysthymia is a useful term that describes your experience, don't feel reluctant about bring it up because a book that came out 3 months ago says it is technically something else.

    ----

    I find mindfulness meditation to be... easily counter productive. Being more introverted and focused on my depression seems like it gives more influence. It sort of ends up as here are a list of things that suck because of my depression.

    When I'm not depressed, I'm thinking about whatever it is I am doing.

    Or something. That's me. I guess.

    This machine kills threads.
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  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    If there is anything I have learned from being on the autism spectrum, it's that many psychological definitions found in a book can be helpful for getting people the help and attention and medication that they need, and many more can be unhelpful in the same ways through misdiagnosis, over medication, etc.

    Like everything else in life, human beings are hard to peg as one thing that can be applied to everyone with similar situations/symptoms/genetics/whatever.

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  • KonphujunKonphujun Illinois, USARegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I shall throw my hat in the ring on this as well. I can't say I have extensive experience with mental illness and the treatments, etc, but I will say this. Trust your body. If you feel like something's wrong, even if you can't place your finger on what exactly, you are probably right.

    My entire life I have always felt like I was made wrong compared to other people. I would find myself in situations where I should feel something, happy, sad, angry, etc and I would just have nothing. This has been going on for as long as I can remember. Its not just that I felt nothing about anything, its that I was aware of it that concerned me. I don't feel joy or sadness or anything, at all. I know how I should react to X situation and I do, but its forced. I know that when I'm being surprised on my birthday I should be happy or excited or surprised, even, but its just not there. It was only recently after stumbling into some articles that may be related to my issue that it even occurred to me that not feeling anything isn't how everyone is. I've always thought something was wrong or broken but I never really gave it any thought until I came across those articles completely by accident.

    (Wow, it felt really good just to get all that out in the world, never mentioned it to another human being up until now)

    In summary, nobody knows your mind and body like you do and nobody will be able to tell if something isn't right like you will. Listen to yourself!

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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2014
    Corehealer wrote: »
    If there is anything I have learned from being on the autism spectrum, it's that many psychological definitions found in a book can be helpful for getting people the help and attention and medication that they need, and many more can be unhelpful in the same ways through misdiagnosis, over medication, etc.

    Like everything else in life, human beings are hard to peg as one thing that can be applied to everyone with similar situations/symptoms/genetics/whatever.

    Yeah. The problem is the DSM started as a mechanism for clarifying jargon, and slowly turned into a collection of etiological stories.

    Originally, it was a tool for standardizing the terms used to discuss various kinds of mental disturbances, "We use X to refer to symptom collection P, Q, R." Which makes sense. We need standardized meaning within the medical community. But then some silly geese got ahold of it, and said, "Oh! When people exhibit P, Q, and R, they must have X!" Which is the opposite of its intended purpose.

    We really liked the latter use, so stuck with it. And now the DSM is this bizarre combination of language standardization and stories of presumed causation.

    So, yes. You are correct. It's not that depression and schizophrenia and autism are things people can have. Rather "depression" and "schizophrenia" and "autism" are terms used within the medical community to refer to particular sets of symptoms, for the sake of standardization.

    Fucking soft sciences.

    _J_ on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    For what it's worth, most mental health practitioners know the DSM is a frothy milkshake of science and pseudoscience, and keep it around only as a catalog of convenient mythologies for the purposes of billing single payers and insurance companies.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    And now that the ICD is the gold standard for medical diagnoses, many practitioners are ignoring the DSM entirely and just going by ICD classifications.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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