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The Ferguson Protests

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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Goatmon wrote: »
    What's funny (and/or sad) about O'Reilly is the guy is perfectly capable of calling out bullshit, whenever someone tries pulling it on him.

    But he doesn't really bother to challenge himself much, and Fox is much happier having him go up against easy targets that let them further their agenda.

    And he's totally fine with that.

    Dude has the potential to be way more than he is, and just can't be assed.

    Yeah

    Once in a blue moon the dude makes it clear that he's capable of intelligent discussion and debate

    Which makes his usual stance if condescension and shouting down the opposition all the more obnoxious

    you know better

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    balerbowerbalerbower Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    V1m wrote: »
    Thorn413 wrote: »
    I...what?

    It's quite possible he simply doesn't like the word "privilege".

    Neither do I really, because it has unpleasant and accusatory overtones that can really ruffle the feathers of someone who, while they had white privilege, maybe feel that they didn't get so many other privileges. In most white guys minds "privilege" conjurs up a mental image of some preppy dude with a cashmere knitted pullover knotted around his shoulders talking about his family's summerhouse in the Hamptons. It can be difficult to explain that "privilege" only means that you're better off being white than black in otherwise equivalent circumstances.

    And then people get into the oppression olympics thing because there lots of different types of priv - race, gender, learning disabilities, physical challenges and so on. Did you know that you can be privileged depending on what time of year your goddamb birthday is? You absolutely can! If your birthday is in July, statistically you'll do significantly better at school than a kid who's birthday is in October.

    privilege exists, and there really is no better word for it. you can acknowledge it without having to feel guilty about it.

    also please never use the term "oppression olympics" ever again

    it's on par with "PC" in how it trivializes real ass problems and frankly it's a goosey thing to say

    balerbower on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Do people outside of his "fan base" really think O'Rielly is sincere? I've never really gotten the feeling, especially after Jon Stewart interviews, that he actually believes the shit he is slinging. Granted, the man is still a shitlord, but he is smarter than that. He has found a way to make tons of money, and that is all he seems to see it as. I'm not saying he and his rhetoric don't have a negative effect, just that he seems to know how simply he projects, and won't care until the money stops.

    If O'Reilly ever posted on an internet forum, where he couldn't simply cut people's mics and/or shout over them so that the opposing viewpoint could not be heard, he would be consistently destroyed.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Here's more of that Jon Stewart Ferguson stuff:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWul8CSM2Io

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    balerbower wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Thorn413 wrote: »
    I...what?

    It's quite possible he simply doesn't like the word "privilege".

    Neither do I really, because it has unpleasant and accusatory overtones that can really ruffle the feathers of someone who, while they had white privilege, maybe feel that they didn't get so many other privileges. In most white guys minds "privilege" conjurs up a mental image of some preppy dude with a cashmere knitted pullover knotted around his shoulders talking about his family's summerhouse in the Hamptons. It can be difficult to explain that "privilege" only means that you're better off being white than black in otherwise equivalent circumstances.

    And then people get into the oppression olympics thing because there lots of different types of priv - race, gender, learning disabilities, physical challenges and so on. Did you know that you can be privileged depending on what time of year your goddamb birthday is? You absolutely can! If your birthday is in July, statistically you'll do significantly better at school than a kid who's birthday is in October.

    privilege exists, and there really is no better word for it. you can acknowledge it without having to feel guilty about it.

    also please never use the term "oppression olympics" ever again

    it's on par with "PC" in how it trivializes real ass problems and frankly it's a goosey thing to say

    Privilege is ubiquitous in North American culture because we're a first world country with a good strategic geographic position. A better term would be "ignorance of true suffering" because that really is the source of all pathology related to privilege, and it's something you can feel guilty about if you don't at least approximate it with education.

    As for rejection or continued usage of labels to define an ideology, that's dependent on the current context, because ideologies do change over time, even in the short span of a century. Neither Republicans nor Democrats believe in the direct etymology of their namesakes because they both (are supposed to) adhere to the same voting system structure and have no current plans to change it anytime soon. Plus, labels for movements are also heavily defined by the people that carry the banner as well as the ideology that unites them, which practically must be taken into account when you study the way the label is truly regarded.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    You know what, if you called privilege something else, it would get attacked too.

    The term isn't important. It's what the term means. If somebody is going to get all up in arms because I use the term privilege, or say I'm a feminist, or whatever, then they didn't really care about my viewpoint anyway and nothing I say is going to change their mind regardless.

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    VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I find that discussing the concept of privilege with a lot of my white male friends usually results in me hearing about how sad and terrible their lives have been.

    Vivixenne on
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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    I'm pretty happy with how uncomfortable the word "privilege" makes people

    Because it's something you should feel fucking uncomfortable about

    Embrace it. Listen to the dark secrets it whispers in your ear.

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    Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Can't really fault them, though.

    I mean, we're seeing it right here in this thread and in the linked modern media.

    The concept is rather... Esoteric. It's simple to define, but hard to understand. Most people view their trials and tribulations as the most difficult. They think of their life has hard because it was hard for them to deal with.

    Worldview is hard to expand for most people.

    I'm not saying it's excusable. Let's be clear on that. It's just not exactly shocking.

    "Privileged? No! I had a used Civic for my first car given to me by my parents while my friend got a new Audi!"

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Paladin wrote: »
    balerbower wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Thorn413 wrote: »
    I...what?

    It's quite possible he simply doesn't like the word "privilege".

    Neither do I really, because it has unpleasant and accusatory overtones that can really ruffle the feathers of someone who, while they had white privilege, maybe feel that they didn't get so many other privileges. In most white guys minds "privilege" conjurs up a mental image of some preppy dude with a cashmere knitted pullover knotted around his shoulders talking about his family's summerhouse in the Hamptons. It can be difficult to explain that "privilege" only means that you're better off being white than black in otherwise equivalent circumstances.

    And then people get into the oppression olympics thing because there lots of different types of priv - race, gender, learning disabilities, physical challenges and so on. Did you know that you can be privileged depending on what time of year your goddamb birthday is? You absolutely can! If your birthday is in July, statistically you'll do significantly better at school than a kid who's birthday is in October.

    privilege exists, and there really is no better word for it. you can acknowledge it without having to feel guilty about it.

    also please never use the term "oppression olympics" ever again

    it's on par with "PC" in how it trivializes real ass problems and frankly it's a goosey thing to say

    Privilege is ubiquitous in North American culture because we're a first world country with a good strategic geographic position. A better term would be "ignorance of true suffering" because that really is the source of all pathology related to privilege, and it's something you can feel guilty about if you don't at least approximate it with education.

    As for rejection or continued usage of labels to define an ideology, that's dependent on the current context, because ideologies do change over time, even in the short span of a century. Neither Republicans nor Democrats believe in the direct etymology of their namesakes because they both (are supposed to) adhere to the same voting system structure and have no current plans to change it anytime soon. Plus, labels for movements are also heavily defined by the people that carry the banner as well as the ideology that unites them, which practically must be taken into account when you study the way the label is truly regarded.

    We can go down the rabbithole into Saussureian theory on semiology but it really wouldn't ever end as it ultimately becomes little more than a semantic argument about the essence of meaning rather than the actual subject here.

    White Privilege is a thing, a problematic thing yes, but still a thing. A valid thing. And a thing worth discussing in contexts such as this one. I don't really like the "ignorance of true suffering" definition because "true" is a loaded term. Great Aunt Martha Waverlyton III who has lived in the top 1% for her entire life is suffering truly when her entire family dies in a fire. Yes she has money and power, but that doesn't make her suffering less than "true." Suffering and privileged are not the same here. She is just as privileged as before by her born and societal circumstances, but she is still knowing suffering and it is just as true to her as the person starving in the inner-city street who was born homeless.

    A link posted earlier makes a solid point about how "redefining" privilege inherently moves the goalposts of the conversation, typically not in a useful way.

    I think we all know what the term means in the context of Ferguson, if not by rote definition then by the multitude of contextual clues in the conversation and facts of the story.

    Enc on
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    LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    "Ignorance of true suffering"? That feels so obtuse. seems like it'd make talking about how privilege in our society functions more difficult

    Say if I wanted to make the argument that cis gendered males are actually underprivileged in terms of knowing how to analyze and deal with their emotions intelligently? Masculinity is often associated with repressing emotion and not talking about how one feels because it isn't "manly". Generally men aren't taught that it's okay to feel certain things and that can stunt emotional development

    How would I frame that discussion using "ignorance of true suffering" instead of privilege?

    f24GSaF.jpg
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    I guess most people feel like their lives have been harder than they would appear if presented on a relative scale. Very few people seem willing to accept that they've had an easier ride than others. Then you have to extend that to get them to see that this easier time was because society is geared to give them as little difficulty as possible, and that the 'hard time' they felt they've endured has in fact been the easiest run possible.

    forumsig.png
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Lockout wrote: »
    "Ignorance of true suffering"? That feels so obtuse. seems like it'd make talking about how privilege in our society functions more difficult

    Say if I wanted to make the argument that cis gendered males are actually underprivileged in terms of knowing how to analyze and deal with their emotions intelligently? Masculinity is often associated with repressing emotion and not talking about how one feels because it isn't "manly". Generally men aren't taught that it's okay to feel certain things and that can stunt emotional development

    How would I frame that discussion using "ignorance of true suffering" instead of privilege?

    2013-02-02-200805_76721_640screen-300x170.jpg

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    WeaverWeaver Who are you? What do you want?Registered User regular
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    VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    the most common response we get is "you don't know what I've been through"

    to which Blake and I usually respond, "you don't know what everyone ELSE has been through, either"

    then we get a long dreary story about all their trials and tribulations and tragedies, which lots of times are genuinely sad and shitty

    and we offer the usual friendly platitudes and follow up with a "now imagine going through all of that as a <member of less privileged group>, can't you even begin to fathom how much harder it would've been then, on top of everything else?"

    we get a few people coming around, but most want the subject changed because it's uncomfortable, but I generally refuse to change it until I say the words "good, I'm glad you're uncomfortable, because now you have a teeny tiny taste of what it's like for people who aren't your <demographic>, and you, being privileged, get to change the subject and turn it off. that is a great example of your privilege, because people in plenty of other demographics don't GET to turn it off."

    Vivixenne on
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    LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    Can't really fault them, though.

    I mean, we're seeing it right here in this thread and in the linked modern media.

    The concept is rather... Esoteric. It's simple to define, but hard to understand. Most people view their trials and tribulations as the most difficult. They think of their life has hard because it was hard for them to deal with.

    Worldview is hard to expand for most people.

    I'm not saying it's excusable. Let's be clear on that. It's just not exactly shocking.

    "Privileged? No! I had a used Civic for my first car given to me by my parents while my friend got a new Audi!"

    I'd disagree that it's hard to understand. It isn't a concept that counters logic. However, it is difficult to come to terms with emotionally

    As much as its opponents claim to appeal to rationality, the biggest problem is that the idea of privilege runs against their internal narrative

    I think. I'm not a psychologist

    f24GSaF.jpg
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    the most common response we get is "you don't know what I've been through"

    to which Blake and I usually respond, "you don't know what everyone ELSE has been through, either"

    then we get a long dreary story about all their trials and tribulations and tragedies, which lots of times are genuinely sad and shitty

    and we offer the usual friendly platitudes and follow up with a "now imagine going through all of that as a <member of less privileged group>, can't you even begin to fathom how much harder it would've been then, on top of everything else?"

    we get a few people coming around, but most want the subject changed because it's uncomfortable, but I generally refuse to change it until I say the words "good, I'm glad you're uncomfortable, because now you have a teeny tiny taste of what it's like for people who aren't your <demographic>, and you, being privileged, get to change the subject and turn it off. that is a great example of your privilege, because people in plenty of other demographics don't GET to turn it off."

    Last Halloween I went to a party where I was the only white guy and had a long discussion with a black man, who kept trying to get me to come to the table by making concessions and apologizing for black people and I kept having to tell him that the onus is on society to stop treating them like animals, and not the other way around.

    Which made me feel like shit, because being a white male brought up as a Christian, I'm sure people think that says certain things about me right off the bat and it makes me feel disgusting to be associated with those things.

    But even more than that, I felt shitty because we aren't just trapping black people in literal physical prisons. We've got them locked up mentally too.

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    VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Lockout wrote: »
    Can't really fault them, though.

    I mean, we're seeing it right here in this thread and in the linked modern media.

    The concept is rather... Esoteric. It's simple to define, but hard to understand. Most people view their trials and tribulations as the most difficult. They think of their life has hard because it was hard for them to deal with.

    Worldview is hard to expand for most people.

    I'm not saying it's excusable. Let's be clear on that. It's just not exactly shocking.

    "Privileged? No! I had a used Civic for my first car given to me by my parents while my friend got a new Audi!"

    I'd disagree that it's hard to understand. It isn't a concept that counters logic. However, it is difficult to come to terms with emotionally

    As much as its opponents claim to appeal to rationality, the biggest problem is that the idea of privilege runs against their internal narrative

    I think. I'm not a psychologist

    people want validation and acknowledgement for achievement, which includes overcoming adversity and challenge

    the assumption of privilege runs counter to that, so people do rail against it

    but it doesn't take a whole lot of mental flexibility and reflection to see that it's not about you as an individual as a sum of your experiences, but basically that being a fish in water feels pretty darn comfortable and you're wondering why that kitty over there is so tired all the time from all the swimming and then when the kitty tells you how lucky you are to be a fish you start talking about how hard it is to not get eaten by bigger fish

    and then the kitty agrees that it's hard and a shark comes along and you get away because you can swim fast and breathe underwater and you're like phewf that sucked I'm soooo tired ugh I hate this then you turn around and are like HEY WHERE DID THE KITTY GO

    Vivixenne on
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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »

    in trying to find that video I found one just as bad, here he is saying he's exempt from white privilege, because growing up he was kind of poor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyG9h5Q2TZ0

    He was a jock at a private school. In the 60s. He wasn't poor.

    Well ya, but to him that's "poor" because he's so god damn deep in privilege he can't even see that.
    Sticks wrote: »
    august wrote: »
    balerbower wrote: »
    one, fuck dudes who think swatting is funny cause seriously someone's going to get killed, probably a black dude who streams LoL or some shit

    two, whatever happened to police knocking on the door and saying, "we got this report about blah blah blah... may we come inside just to check that everything's okay?"

    argh

    Because the call they get is "help I'm being robbed and possibly murdered by multiple armed assailants."

    Yea, keep in mind that when someone makes a fake call like this, they use words and phrases that will specifically trigger this level of response from the police. They're expecting armed violent individuals that have just committed serious crimes.

    What I don't get, is when they arrive and it's , you know, not multiple armed assailants and just a dude at a computer, they still go pretty full bore on him anyway

    They might arrive after a crime or during an attempt to coverup a crime. Armed assailants aren't just people with rifles slung on their shoulder or brandished knives. They have no idea if the guy has a weapon on him or nearby that he might draw.

    The level of violence isn't required for all cop calls, but the fact is that it is occasionally necessary, so there has to be a trigger for that level of response, so someone will always be able to exploit that trigger.

    Now, the real problem is that "black male" is too often one of those triggers for SWAT.

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    VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    ok my last post is making me giggle way too hard, I think it's bedtime

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Lockout wrote: »
    Can't really fault them, though.

    I mean, we're seeing it right here in this thread and in the linked modern media.

    The concept is rather... Esoteric. It's simple to define, but hard to understand. Most people view their trials and tribulations as the most difficult. They think of their life has hard because it was hard for them to deal with.

    Worldview is hard to expand for most people.

    I'm not saying it's excusable. Let's be clear on that. It's just not exactly shocking.

    "Privileged? No! I had a used Civic for my first car given to me by my parents while my friend got a new Audi!"

    I'd disagree that it's hard to understand. It isn't a concept that counters logic. However, it is difficult to come to terms with emotionally

    As much as its opponents claim to appeal to rationality, the biggest problem is that the idea of privilege runs against their internal narrative

    I think. I'm not a psychologist

    people want validation and acknowledgement for achievement, which includes overcoming adversity and challenge

    the assumption of privilege runs counter to that, so people do rail against it

    but it doesn't take a whole lot of mental flexibility and reflection to see that it's not about you as an individual as a sum of your experiences, but basically that being a fish in water feels pretty darn comfortable and you're wondering why that kitty over there is so tired all the time from all the swimming and then when the kitty tells you how lucky you are to be a fish you start talking about how hard it is to not get eaten by bigger fish

    and then the kitty agrees that it's hard and a shark comes along and you get away because you can swim fast and breathe underwater and you're like phewf that sucked I'm soooo tired ugh I hate this then you turn around and are like HEY WHERE DID THE KITTY GO

    Close, in actuality you forgot the kitty even existed at that point, you're just happy you got yours.

    Now I think this metaphor has been sufficiently waterboarded.

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Whenever I have to hear how hard any individual white hetero cis male's life has been I want to beat them over the head with a big wooden sign that says "do you think going through all that while also being gay/black/female/trans/etc. would have been easier or harder?!"

    Because when you go the other way, 99% of the time your troubles would have been easier if you were a white dude. "But now I'm not eligible for minority scholarshipsssssss!" notwithstanding.

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Double post

    KalTorak on
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    Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Lockout wrote: »
    Can't really fault them, though.

    I mean, we're seeing it right here in this thread and in the linked modern media.

    The concept is rather... Esoteric. It's simple to define, but hard to understand. Most people view their trials and tribulations as the most difficult. They think of their life has hard because it was hard for them to deal with.

    Worldview is hard to expand for most people.

    I'm not saying it's excusable. Let's be clear on that. It's just not exactly shocking.

    "Privileged? No! I had a used Civic for my first car given to me by my parents while my friend got a new Audi!"

    I'd disagree that it's hard to understand. It isn't a concept that counters logic. However, it is difficult to come to terms with emotionally

    As much as its opponents claim to appeal to rationality, the biggest problem is that the idea of privilege runs against their internal narrative

    I think. I'm not a psychologist

    I agree, totally. But humor me as I make a super semantic argument.

    If something runs against your internal narrative, and you hesitate/refuse to accept it as reality... Are you truly understanding it?

    I'm not arguing against you, I'm getting a little up my own ass here, but I think the problem is rooted in understanding. Not just understanding what white privilege means, but it's sociological effects and cultural impact.

    Again, semantics. I often wonder, though, if we could define the words better and hand wave it away less, maybe things would be a little cooler.

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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    I find that discussing the concept of privilege with a lot of my white male friends usually results in me hearing about how sad and terrible their lives have been.

    Just reply with "Hey, that may be true, but do you know what would have made it more sad and terrible? Not being white. Whit privilege isn't about devaluing your personal problems. It's about recognizing that they would be a lot worse if you were any other ethnicity."

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    darleysam wrote: »
    I guess most people feel like their lives have been harder than they would appear if presented on a relative scale. Very few people seem willing to accept that they've had an easier ride than others. Then you have to extend that to get them to see that this easier time was because society is geared to give them as little difficulty as possible, and that the 'hard time' they felt they've endured has in fact been the easiest run possible.

    People can only define their existence based upon known contexts. A friend of my family has a lot of money (easily in the top 5%) and had two sons. One ended up wasting his trust fund, destroying every connection he has been born with, and now works for a lawn care company as a "supervisor" for when the laborers go out to do golf courses and such. In his mind he has it the worst, he went from being crazy rich and powerful to being so "low" that he has to work outside six days a week for nine to ten hours a day.

    If you were to point out (rightly so) that he still got his current job based upon the fact the company owed his father a lot of business, or the fact he is still getting paid well above the average rate due to his entirely paid for education to an ivy league school (which he barely passed through and doesn't think got him anything), or the fact that his job is usually just sitting around the truck or riding on a mower rather than the actual back-breaking labor most of the employees do (and have done for decades longer than he has without ever having the possibility of getting promotion to "supervisor" due to race and citizenship status, he either wouldn't believe you or wouldn't listen. Even though he works with people who were born far less well off than he, he will always only have his own context of suffering as a baseline and will always favor his own pains unless he takes an active role in being emphatic to those around him.

    That last step is where privilege becomes important. You can point out privilege to anyone better off than you from your own context quite easy (this fellow points out that his brother, who played things straight and invested well and now runs part of that family's business) is crazy well off and how unfair it is based upon the opportunities given to him that he didn't get as the older sibling. He isn't wrong! The younger brother did get a slightly better hand.

    But unless he becomes willing to look at his own privileges in relation to those around him it is meaningless. To do so you have to be willing to admit that you aren't the most deserving of help, the most in need, the most important case in the room. That requires a lot of humility and a lot of self actualization to do and is (in my experience) well beyond what most people are willing to do. It's also the reason why Fox's coverage, horrific as it is, is so well received by the audience it panders to. It tells them that they are right to feel the most marginalized, the most worth of sympathy, the least responsible for their lot, the most deserving of special treatment in a "just" world. And it is wrong by any reasonable objective standard. But people don't usually think objectively, we aren't naturally inclined to do so (especially about our own sufferings), so they don't think it is wrong at all.

    This is what is happening when people attack concepts like "Privilege." It's not that there is anything wrong with the concept or facts, only the fact that it makes you have to look at your circumstances beyond yourself and acknowledge hard truths that make your own problems seem small in comparison. If you aren't prepared to look at things objectively it feels like a personal attack, despite the fact that thinking so is (in itself) a form a privilege in and of itself.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I'm ashamed to admit that when I was a kid I bought into the whole minority scholarships bullshit because I couldn't afford school.

    Then, as an adult, I got a job working as a laboratory assistant with nothing but a high school diploma, and the opportunity that afforded me to prove my intelligence prompted my boss to pay for me to attend a private university, all expenses paid.

    Yeah, white male privilege is a thing. I have no illusions about the odds of that happening if I was anything but a white man.

    So yeah, I got better.

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Ooh ooh, one of my favorite ones was a white male German acquaintance arguing against the existence of privilege because of how his family had been forced to leave Germany during the rise of Nazism.

    A Jewish woman at the table said something along the lines of "it must have been nice to be allowed to leave." Yeah, turns out most of her extended family was imprisoned and murdered.

    And he kept arguing.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    True suffering is a semantics argument

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    Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I think that's a very different thing, right there.

    I'm not sure I'm comfortable buying into the holocaust as an example, here.

    Priviledge, yes, but very different circumstances.

    Anon the Felon on
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    I remember seeing a pretty dumb (in parts) documentary where they were testing society's reactions to Muslim and disabled people, with things like asking for special options at restaurants and seeing how long it was before people called them out on rudeness.

    The Muslim guy and guy in a wheelchair got preferential treatment in some cases when they were out and about (Muslim guy more often), but at the end of the documentary they had a look at what happened if you sent out identical CVs to job openings, but changed a few details. The applications with "Volunteered at yacht, lacrosse and Anglican church group" (or whatever white people do) got way more responses than if you put "Volunteered at mosque" or "captained wheelchair basketball team".

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Eh.

    Anon the Felon on
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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Whenever I have to hear how hard any individual white hetero cis male's life has been I want to beat them over the head with a big wooden sign that says "do you think going through all that while also being gay/black/female/trans/etc. would have been easier or harder?!"

    Because when you go the other way, 99% of the time your troubles would have been easier if you were a white dude. "But now I'm not eligible for minority scholarshipsssssss!" notwithstanding.

    People legitimately live shitty lives even if they're hetero, white, male, and cisgendered. You shouldn't devalue that reality. But at the same time that doesn't mean that privilege doesn't exist. Telling someone that their life isn't bad because it could be worse is shitty, and telling someone that their life isn't shitty because you have also had to deal with shitty things is also shitty. There's no valuation to the shittyness, it's just about understanding that no one should have a shitty life because of race, gender, or sex.

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    I remember seeing a pretty dumb (in parts) documentary where they were testing society's reactions to Muslim and disabled people, with things like asking for special options at restaurants and seeing how long it was before people called them out on rudeness.

    The Muslim guy and guy in a wheelchair got preferential treatment in some cases when they were out and about (Muslim guy more often), but at the end of the documentary they had a look at what happened if you sent out identical CVs to job openings, but changed a few details. The applications with "Volunteered at yacht, lacrosse and Anglican church group" (or whatever white people do) got way more responses than if you put "Volunteered at mosque" or "captained wheelchair basketball team".

    I have no doubt that tons of resumes get tossed once people get a glimpse of a "black-sounding" or middle-eastern name.

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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I remember seeing a pretty dumb (in parts) documentary where they were testing society's reactions to Muslim and disabled people, with things like asking for special options at restaurants and seeing how long it was before people called them out on rudeness.

    The Muslim guy and guy in a wheelchair got preferential treatment in some cases when they were out and about (Muslim guy more often), but at the end of the documentary they had a look at what happened if you sent out identical CVs to job openings, but changed a few details. The applications with "Volunteered at yacht, lacrosse and Anglican church group" (or whatever white people do) got way more responses than if you put "Volunteered at mosque" or "captained wheelchair basketball team".

    I have no doubt that tons of resumes get tossed once people get a glimpse of a "black-sounding" or middle-eastern name.

    I've worked with people of foreign descent who have given themselves fake names when calling leads, as they worry that if they introduce themselves as Imran or Vishi or whatever people will assume it's a crappy telemarketing outfit out of Mumbai and not give them the time of day.

    When in fact, it was a crappy telemarketing outfit out of Cambridge.

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    balerbower wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Thorn413 wrote: »
    I...what?

    It's quite possible he simply doesn't like the word "privilege".

    Neither do I really, because it has unpleasant and accusatory overtones that can really ruffle the feathers of someone who, while they had white privilege, maybe feel that they didn't get so many other privileges. In most white guys minds "privilege" conjurs up a mental image of some preppy dude with a cashmere knitted pullover knotted around his shoulders talking about his family's summerhouse in the Hamptons. It can be difficult to explain that "privilege" only means that you're better off being white than black in otherwise equivalent circumstances.

    And then people get into the oppression olympics thing because there lots of different types of priv - race, gender, learning disabilities, physical challenges and so on. Did you know that you can be privileged depending on what time of year your goddamb birthday is? You absolutely can! If your birthday is in July, statistically you'll do significantly better at school than a kid who's birthday is in October.

    privilege exists, and there really is no better word for it. you can acknowledge it without having to feel guilty about it.

    also please never use the term "oppression olympics" ever again

    it's on par with "PC" in how it trivializes real ass problems and frankly it's a goosey thing to say

    Your request is denied, because it has frequently been used unironically by plenty of people here, including some mods, in relevent discussions and just because it's used in making a point you might not be wholly comfortable with doesn't make it unacceptable.

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    I'm pretty happy with how uncomfortable the word "privilege" makes people

    Because it's something you should feel fucking uncomfortable about

    Embrace it. Listen to the dark secrets it whispers in your ear.

    Yeah lets make people feel bad for being born into & raised in a circumstance they have no control over. it's totally their fault for being born white, male, cis, etc.

    Those assholes.

    How about focusing on making them understand and enlisting them in changing the situation rather than making feel bad and alienating them and enabling cheap identity politics that keep them on the wrong team for ever.

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I remember seeing a pretty dumb (in parts) documentary where they were testing society's reactions to Muslim and disabled people, with things like asking for special options at restaurants and seeing how long it was before people called them out on rudeness.

    The Muslim guy and guy in a wheelchair got preferential treatment in some cases when they were out and about (Muslim guy more often), but at the end of the documentary they had a look at what happened if you sent out identical CVs to job openings, but changed a few details. The applications with "Volunteered at yacht, lacrosse and Anglican church group" (or whatever white people do) got way more responses than if you put "Volunteered at mosque" or "captained wheelchair basketball team".

    I have no doubt that tons of resumes get tossed once people get a glimpse of a "black-sounding" or middle-eastern name.

    I've worked with people of foreign descent who have given themselves fake names when calling leads, as they worry that if they introduce themselves as Imran or Vishi or whatever people will assume it's a crappy telemarketing outfit out of Mumbai and not give them the time of day.

    When in fact, it was a crappy telemarketing outfit out of Cambridge.

    I mean even outside of conscious prejudices, there's a culturally-ingrained negative bias that influences people against minorities. Malcolm Gladwell talks about how it's tested in Blink, and how even he tested with a bias toward linking black people with "bad" concepts, even as a black man.

    Also I'm going to go ahead and say that part of white privilege (or white something) is being able to blather about whatever Malcolm Gladwell book you just read.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    I'm pretty happy with how uncomfortable the word "privilege" makes people

    Because it's something you should feel fucking uncomfortable about

    Embrace it. Listen to the dark secrets it whispers in your ear.

    Yeah lets make people feel bad for being born into & raised in a circumstance they have no control over. it's totally their fault for being born white, male, cis, etc.

    Those assholes.

    How about focusing on making them understand and enlisting them in changing the situation rather than making feel bad and alienating them and enabling cheap identity politics that keep them on the wrong team for ever.

    People don't want to inspire guilt for privilege just to make people feel bad because ha ha, you had it coming.

    The guilt is a good thing because it inspires and motivates people to use that privilege to enact necessary change.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    I heard this one from a training we had at my workplace on the topic a while back. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was something like this:
    Privilege is starting the 100 meter dash 25 meters in.

    Q: If two people were running a race, one starting at each of these locations, and both broke their ankles, who hurts more?
    A: The answer here is meaningless. They both hurt. The suffering of the injury is unmeasurable. Comparing the two becomes an argument that can never be satisfied.

    Q: If two people were running a race, one starting at each of these locations, and both broke their ankles, who would finish first?
    A: Most likely the the person with the advantage. This is a useful question, especially when you consider hitting the finish line to be medical attention (and the costs implied).


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