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The Ferguson Protests

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    I'm pretty happy with how uncomfortable the word "privilege" makes people

    Because it's something you should feel fucking uncomfortable about

    Embrace it. Listen to the dark secrets it whispers in your ear.

    Yeah lets make people feel bad for being born into & raised in a circumstance they have no control over. it's totally their fault for being born white, male, cis, etc.

    Those assholes.

    How about focusing on making them understand and enlisting them in changing the situation rather than making feel bad and alienating them and enabling cheap identity politics that keep them on the wrong team for ever.

    please don't put words in my mouth, I'm perfectly capable of calling people "assholes" all on my own

    people generally don't get up and help when they feel like everything is all fine and dandy

    and if all it takes is a word to alienate someone, they would be just another shitty ally anyways so good riddance

    modifying a minority group's message to fit in with the majority narrative is called assimilation, btw

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    ProlegomenaProlegomena Frictionless Spinning The VoidRegistered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    I'm pretty happy with how uncomfortable the word "privilege" makes people

    Because it's something you should feel fucking uncomfortable about

    Embrace it. Listen to the dark secrets it whispers in your ear.

    Yeah lets make people feel bad for being born into & raised in a circumstance they have no control over. it's totally their fault for being born white, male, cis, etc.

    Those assholes.

    How about focusing on making them understand and enlisting them in changing the situation rather than making feel bad and alienating them and enabling cheap identity politics that keep them on the wrong team for ever.

    Trying to replace entrenched social problems is hugely difficult, doing it without making anyone feel bad is... I don't want to say impossible, but it feels like a waste of effort.

    Acknowledging your own privilege needn't mean feeling like you're at fault; in fact mentioning that it isn't your own personal fault is pretty much a massive non sequitur.

    You can totally feel bad about things that aren't your fault.

    I also get the feeling that the people who are most affronted when faced with the suggestion that some of their attitudes come from a place of privilege are going to do so however cautiously this is framed to them, but that might just be cynicism.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    balerbower wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Thorn413 wrote: »
    I...what?

    It's quite possible he simply doesn't like the word "privilege".

    Neither do I really, because it has unpleasant and accusatory overtones that can really ruffle the feathers of someone who, while they had white privilege, maybe feel that they didn't get so many other privileges. In most white guys minds "privilege" conjurs up a mental image of some preppy dude with a cashmere knitted pullover knotted around his shoulders talking about his family's summerhouse in the Hamptons. It can be difficult to explain that "privilege" only means that you're better off being white than black in otherwise equivalent circumstances.

    And then people get into the oppression olympics thing because there lots of different types of priv - race, gender, learning disabilities, physical challenges and so on. Did you know that you can be privileged depending on what time of year your goddamb birthday is? You absolutely can! If your birthday is in July, statistically you'll do significantly better at school than a kid who's birthday is in October.

    privilege exists, and there really is no better word for it. you can acknowledge it without having to feel guilty about it.

    also please never use the term "oppression olympics" ever again

    it's on par with "PC" in how it trivializes real ass problems and frankly it's a goosey thing to say

    Your request is denied, because it has frequently been used unironically by plenty of people here, including some mods, in relevent discussions and just because it's used in making a point you might not be wholly comfortable with doesn't make it unacceptable.

    okay, what the fuck

    the mods aren't a necessary authority on minority rights issues

    and you're grossly misrepresenting entire fields of academic study

    intersectionalism is a very real term that deals with the way that being part of more than one minority groups can fuck over someone extra hard

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    I'm pretty happy with how uncomfortable the word "privilege" makes people

    Because it's something you should feel fucking uncomfortable about

    Embrace it. Listen to the dark secrets it whispers in your ear.

    Yeah lets make people feel bad for being born into & raised in a circumstance they have no control over. it's totally their fault for being born white, male, cis, etc.

    Those assholes.

    How about focusing on making them understand and enlisting them in changing the situation rather than making feel bad and alienating them and enabling cheap identity politics that keep them on the wrong team for ever.

    please don't put words in my mouth, I'm perfectly capable of calling people "assholes" all on my own

    people generally don't get up and help when they feel like everything is all fine and dandy

    and if all it takes is a word to alienate someone, they would be just another shitty ally anyways so good riddance

    modifying a minority group's message to fit in with the majority narrative is called assimilation, btw

    Being unnecessarily hostile to those sympathetic to your cause is called short sighted.

    I agree with your point on feeling uncomfortable being useful and necessary, but when the "shitty ally" stuff comes out I can't help but shake my head. Even the worst allies to a cause, the ones who are just using it for grandstanding, are often also the ones who convince others who don't care at all to do so for the wrong reasons. I don't think there has ever been a positive change in minority/majority relations done entirely (or even mostly) through truly "pure" reasons. The asshole politicians who don't care a bit about others are often the ones signing the legislation to fix long-standing discrimination for a photo-op. Doesn't matter at that point that their reasoning isn't pure, it matters that they do their little but to move the cause forward.

    We don't have to agree here. I've seen numerous horrible people who with LGBT Ally stickers do things to harm the cause and the suspicion is warranted. But if they vote the right way for the right person who does the right thing, even if all of them do so for the wrong reasons, I'd still call that a win.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    I'm extremely cynical about the world, though.

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    Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Proud Father House GardenerRegistered User regular
    You can't throw people away. People have tried this for thousands of years and opposing philosophies and biases stick around. They fester if you let them.
    Evangelism is as important, if not more so, than truth, within the sphere of culture wars. Making folk uncomfortable or threatened encourages folk to dismiss your views.
    The most effective speakers of the ongoing civil rights movement. are the folk who displayed the most patience discussing oppression to the most ignorant of questioners.
    Privilege as a concept is a great thing to discuss. It is when privilege moves away from being an informative concept, into an dismissive insult, that it becomes ineffective in educating the ignorant.

    VayBJ4e.png
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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Trans people often get told to "wait their turn" for the LGBT cause, because we're seen as less digestible by popular social conventions than other queer groups

    it's well-meaning bullshit, and is exactly why I don't take pragmatic stances on pushing these issues

    especially since majority groups expect minorities to show superhuman levels of patience

    being hurt over a movement calling out your privilege and refusing to support them over it is making it about yourself

    Doobh on
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    Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    balerbower wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Thorn413 wrote: »
    I...what?

    It's quite possible he simply doesn't like the word "privilege".

    Neither do I really, because it has unpleasant and accusatory overtones that can really ruffle the feathers of someone who, while they had white privilege, maybe feel that they didn't get so many other privileges. In most white guys minds "privilege" conjurs up a mental image of some preppy dude with a cashmere knitted pullover knotted around his shoulders talking about his family's summerhouse in the Hamptons. It can be difficult to explain that "privilege" only means that you're better off being white than black in otherwise equivalent circumstances.

    And then people get into the oppression olympics thing because there lots of different types of priv - race, gender, learning disabilities, physical challenges and so on. Did you know that you can be privileged depending on what time of year your goddamb birthday is? You absolutely can! If your birthday is in July, statistically you'll do significantly better at school than a kid who's birthday is in October.

    privilege exists, and there really is no better word for it. you can acknowledge it without having to feel guilty about it.

    also please never use the term "oppression olympics" ever again

    it's on par with "PC" in how it trivializes real ass problems and frankly it's a goosey thing to say

    Your request is denied, because it has frequently been used unironically by plenty of people here, including some mods, in relevent discussions and just because it's used in making a point you might not be wholly comfortable with doesn't make it unacceptable.

    So, far be it from you to rise above using that kind of language because other people use it?

    jnij103vqi2i.png
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Lockout wrote: »
    "Ignorance of true suffering"? That feels so obtuse. seems like it'd make talking about how privilege in our society functions more difficult

    Say if I wanted to make the argument that cis gendered males are actually underprivileged in terms of knowing how to analyze and deal with their emotions intelligently? Masculinity is often associated with repressing emotion and not talking about how one feels because it isn't "manly". Generally men aren't taught that it's okay to feel certain things and that can stunt emotional development

    How would I frame that discussion using "ignorance of true suffering" instead of privilege?

    That's hard to answer, because to me it looks like you've defined the situation pretty well without even having to use the concept of privilege. Privilege as a concept is best used in the comparison of one trait between two groups. Without making the fact that people other people and other cultures allow a greater freedom of emotional expression your focus, what you're describing here is not a lack of privilege - it's a problem, or neutrally a property.

    Now, when you do make other parties who do not face this problem or property involved in your discussion, you can use privilege to describe how communication and understanding breaks down, but you always have to take the second step: Why does it break down? Why can't people understand those who've been through more horrible experiences? It's because not having had this experience themselves, they are ignorant of the true suffering the unfortunate ones had to endure.

    Why? Because they're "privileged" - but there's your problem. You can be privileged in one area (have a lot of money) but not another (you watched your family burn alive). Calling someone sum-total "privileged" is reductionist and can be offensive to those living in true pain despite the fact that they're able to eat 3 meals a day. It's a word that starts more fights and misunderstandings than it solves, so it helps to cut out the middleman and be specific.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    I don't disagree, but by refusing to support those groups you also encourage them to refuse to support you, even in platitude form. Finding common ground and working with those groups, not being a doormat but a partner that cannot be denied in it's contributions through political, effort, and financial necessity, it likely to get a better endgame than isolating oneself.

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    DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    "allies" amirite

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Lockout wrote: »
    "Ignorance of true suffering"? That feels so obtuse. seems like it'd make talking about how privilege in our society functions more difficult

    Say if I wanted to make the argument that cis gendered males are actually underprivileged in terms of knowing how to analyze and deal with their emotions intelligently? Masculinity is often associated with repressing emotion and not talking about how one feels because it isn't "manly". Generally men aren't taught that it's okay to feel certain things and that can stunt emotional development

    How would I frame that discussion using "ignorance of true suffering" instead of privilege?

    That's hard to answer, because to me it looks like you've defined the situation pretty well without even having to use the concept of privilege. Privilege as a concept is best used in the comparison of one trait between two groups. Without making the fact that people other people and other cultures allow a greater freedom of emotional expression your focus, what you're describing here is not a lack of privilege - it's a problem, or neutrally a property.

    Now, when you do make other parties who do not face this problem or property involved in your discussion, you can use privilege to describe how communication and understanding breaks down, but you always have to take the second step: Why does it break down? Why can't people understand those who've been through more horrible experiences? It's because not having had this experience themselves, they are ignorant of the true suffering the unfortunate ones had to endure.

    Why? Because they're "privileged" - but there's your problem. You can be privileged in one area (have a lot of money) but not another (you watched your family burn alive). Calling someone sum-total "privileged" is reductionist and can be offensive to those living in true pain despite the fact that they're able to eat 3 meals a day. It's a word that starts more fights and misunderstandings than it solves, so it helps to cut out the middleman and be specific.

    Which is solved entirely by divorcing the concepts of privilege and suffering, as they are not the same thing. Explaining the difference between the two, like using the footrace thing, is how you start this being a useful conversation. Everyone's pain is worthy of sympathy. That doesn't mean everyone has the same remedies available to treat the pain.

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    intropintrop Registered User regular
    Almost any time you approach an oppressed group and criticize a term they/we use, you're going to get very strong reactions. That sort of argument about terms or tone has been used, over and over again, to disarm oppressed groups throughout history. Those arguments are old and tired, and almost everyone is really really tired of hearing them when 99% of the time (disclaimer: number pulled out of my ass) they're used a tool of oppression. So unless you're really, very, extremely, super careful about how you make your criticism, you're going to trip alarms, and rightly so.

    Steam ID: highentropy
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    Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    The majority* in literally every sociopolitical dynamic enjoys certain advantages

    From a scholarly perspective, my only problem with Privilege is that it's such a ubiquitous part of all aspects of social theory that proposing to examine issues primarily through that lens is kind of redundant.

    *in terms of power, not absolute numbers

    Dongs Galore on
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    DaMoonRulzDaMoonRulz Mare ImbriumRegistered User regular
    So the local news station released video from the accident at the gun range yesterday. It stops before anything graphic happens, but you see what happens right up until the split before. I'm not gonna post the link here even though it doesn't show anything, but you can find it on YouTube. Even though you don't see anything happen it's the kind of footage you have to remind yourself to breathe again afterwards.

    3basnids3lf9.jpg




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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Lockout wrote: »
    "Ignorance of true suffering"? That feels so obtuse. seems like it'd make talking about how privilege in our society functions more difficult

    Say if I wanted to make the argument that cis gendered males are actually underprivileged in terms of knowing how to analyze and deal with their emotions intelligently? Masculinity is often associated with repressing emotion and not talking about how one feels because it isn't "manly". Generally men aren't taught that it's okay to feel certain things and that can stunt emotional development

    How would I frame that discussion using "ignorance of true suffering" instead of privilege?

    That's hard to answer, because to me it looks like you've defined the situation pretty well without even having to use the concept of privilege. Privilege as a concept is best used in the comparison of one trait between two groups. Without making the fact that people other people and other cultures allow a greater freedom of emotional expression your focus, what you're describing here is not a lack of privilege - it's a problem, or neutrally a property.

    Now, when you do make other parties who do not face this problem or property involved in your discussion, you can use privilege to describe how communication and understanding breaks down, but you always have to take the second step: Why does it break down? Why can't people understand those who've been through more horrible experiences? It's because not having had this experience themselves, they are ignorant of the true suffering the unfortunate ones had to endure.

    Why? Because they're "privileged" - but there's your problem. You can be privileged in one area (have a lot of money) but not another (you watched your family burn alive). Calling someone sum-total "privileged" is reductionist and can be offensive to those living in true pain despite the fact that they're able to eat 3 meals a day. It's a word that starts more fights and misunderstandings than it solves, so it helps to cut out the middleman and be specific.

    Which is solved entirely by divorcing the concepts of privilege and suffering, as they are not the same thing. Explaining the difference between the two, like using the footrace thing, is how you start this being a useful conversation. Everyone's pain is worthy of sympathy. That doesn't mean everyone has the same remedies available to treat the pain.

    Yes, privilege and suffering should be divorced, because it is not guaranteed that a person who has certain privileges suffers less, although usually having key privileges mitigates the extent of this suffering. However, issues such as healthcare access have little in common with criticisms of privilege on an individual level. When a person fails to understand why, when a homeless man breaks his foot he does not go to the hospital and now has to get an amputation, this is directly due to this person's ignorance of the experience. Privilege may be a factor but it is not the only factor, and focusing on it leaves a whole lot of the problem unsolved.

    Whereas, if you're not talking about anybody in particular, but are considering whole faceless population trends, you can afford to utilize privilege averages because it's a quick and dirty way to look for trends in a general direction. It's sensitive, not specific. On a case-by-case basis, you're better off going back to the drawing board and looking for other factors instead of using privilege as a base and deriving every behavior from its sole influence.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    PsykomaPsykoma Registered User regular
    holy shit that was even worse than I had imagined

    Also, the news reporter was like "and now you can hear the man give the girl instructions" cut to the instructor telling hte child "now you hold that, or the gun won't fire"

    Maybe happened before that point, but nothing about safety.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Lockout wrote: »
    "Ignorance of true suffering"? That feels so obtuse. seems like it'd make talking about how privilege in our society functions more difficult

    Say if I wanted to make the argument that cis gendered males are actually underprivileged in terms of knowing how to analyze and deal with their emotions intelligently? Masculinity is often associated with repressing emotion and not talking about how one feels because it isn't "manly". Generally men aren't taught that it's okay to feel certain things and that can stunt emotional development

    How would I frame that discussion using "ignorance of true suffering" instead of privilege?

    That's hard to answer, because to me it looks like you've defined the situation pretty well without even having to use the concept of privilege. Privilege as a concept is best used in the comparison of one trait between two groups. Without making the fact that people other people and other cultures allow a greater freedom of emotional expression your focus, what you're describing here is not a lack of privilege - it's a problem, or neutrally a property.

    Now, when you do make other parties who do not face this problem or property involved in your discussion, you can use privilege to describe how communication and understanding breaks down, but you always have to take the second step: Why does it break down? Why can't people understand those who've been through more horrible experiences? It's because not having had this experience themselves, they are ignorant of the true suffering the unfortunate ones had to endure.

    Why? Because they're "privileged" - but there's your problem. You can be privileged in one area (have a lot of money) but not another (you watched your family burn alive). Calling someone sum-total "privileged" is reductionist and can be offensive to those living in true pain despite the fact that they're able to eat 3 meals a day. It's a word that starts more fights and misunderstandings than it solves, so it helps to cut out the middleman and be specific.

    Which is solved entirely by divorcing the concepts of privilege and suffering, as they are not the same thing. Explaining the difference between the two, like using the footrace thing, is how you start this being a useful conversation. Everyone's pain is worthy of sympathy. That doesn't mean everyone has the same remedies available to treat the pain.

    Yes, privilege and suffering should be divorced, because it is not guaranteed that a person who has certain privileges suffers less, although usually having key privileges mitigates the extent of this suffering. However, issues such as healthcare access have little in common with criticisms of privilege on an individual level. When a person fails to understand why, when a homeless man breaks his foot he does not go to the hospital and now has to get an amputation, this is directly due to this person's ignorance of the experience. Privilege may be a factor but it is not the only factor, and focusing on it leaves a whole lot of the problem unsolved.

    Whereas, if you're not talking about anybody in particular, but are considering whole faceless population trends, you can afford to utilize privilege averages because it's a quick and dirty way to look for trends in a general direction. It's sensitive, not specific. On a case-by-case basis, you're better off going back to the drawing board and looking for other factors instead of using privilege as a base and deriving every behavior from its sole influence.

    I can't think of any compelling reason why this argument is true. I can just as easily detail out the specific advantages guy X would have being a high-school educated person who watches TV between his shifts at Burger King and the homeless guy when it comes to dealing with a leg wound on an individual level in relation to privilege in a way that is non destructive.

    The Burger King employee may have:
    -Health insurance, or at least knowledge that such insurance exists and a vague idea as to why.
    -Has seen medical television shows rampant on TV and the consequences of festering (or other such common media access).
    -Has access to public transportation or a support network to provide transport to medical facilities.
    -Have a generalized understanding of where a hospital might be, how to enter one and ask for treatment, and a rough undrstanding of what that treatment may entail.
    -The ability to identify a damaging injury in relation to the rest of his existence as he can focus on it over more immediate ailments such as hunger or thirst.

    And that's just without looking at education, birth situation, mental capacity/ailments and more.

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    SticksSticks I'd rather be in bed.Registered User regular
    I don't like the word "privilege" because I always want to spell it "priviledge" and then spell checker yells at me.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    DaMoonRulz wrote: »
    So the local news station released video from the accident at the gun range yesterday. It stops before anything graphic happens, but you see what happens right up until the split before. I'm not gonna post the link here even though it doesn't show anything, but you can find it on YouTube. Even though you don't see anything happen it's the kind of footage you have to remind yourself to breathe again afterwards.

    Our local news showed it without warning or preface as the introduction to the night's news highlights, which was horrifying and tasteless.

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    Sticks wrote: »
    I don't like the word "privilege" because I always want to spell it "priviledge" and then spell checker yells at me.

    Not many people have those anymore, shitting off a ledge went out of style when indoor plumbing got big

    2x39jD4.jpg
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    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    This all comes down to one basic concept (that's at the root of most human awfulness) that I mentioned briefly in my last post: self-awareness and empathy. Privilege of any sort is lacking the ability (or more often, the desire) to look outside one's little reality bubble and see other people as people and not just supporting actors in one's personal play. You can argue semantics about what exactly privilege means, compare levels of suffering, and nit-pick to death, but that all is just a good way to talk around the ultimate problem which is that each and every one of us is inherently biased toward ourselves (or, in a few fringe cases, against ourselves), and until a person can recognize his or her tendency to view his or her own life as more valuable than everyone else's, nothing of value can be accomplished in this sort of discussion. If people want the benefits of a society, they need to start caring about what's best for the society, regardless of whether it's what's best for them personally.

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

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    SticksSticks I'd rather be in bed.Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Sticks wrote: »
    I don't like the word "privilege" because I always want to spell it "priviledge" and then spell checker yells at me.

    Not many people have those anymore, shitting off a ledge went out of style when indoor plumbing got big

    It's not often that I want to use all of the reactions for a single post, but this might be one of those instances.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    I love tips on how to please privileged folk
    It just says so much about privilege

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    I love tips on how to please privileged folk
    It just says so much about privilege

    Is this just generalized sarcasm or are you referring to a specific post here?

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    NeoTomaNeoToma Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    I love tips on how to please privileged folk
    It just says so much about privilege

    "I know you are literally being murdered for you existence, but that's no excuse for making me feel bad that I'm not getting murdered. You should really think of other people if you want make allies,"

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    NeoTomaNeoToma Registered User regular
    Why do you have to say MEAN things about the people who are murdering you? We're all humans, watch your tone, and try not to bleed on my privilege.

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    L Ron HowardL Ron Howard The duck MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    Check your privilege! I got a right to bleed wherever and whenever I want.

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Lockout wrote: »
    "Ignorance of true suffering"? That feels so obtuse. seems like it'd make talking about how privilege in our society functions more difficult

    Say if I wanted to make the argument that cis gendered males are actually underprivileged in terms of knowing how to analyze and deal with their emotions intelligently? Masculinity is often associated with repressing emotion and not talking about how one feels because it isn't "manly". Generally men aren't taught that it's okay to feel certain things and that can stunt emotional development

    How would I frame that discussion using "ignorance of true suffering" instead of privilege?

    That's hard to answer, because to me it looks like you've defined the situation pretty well without even having to use the concept of privilege. Privilege as a concept is best used in the comparison of one trait between two groups. Without making the fact that people other people and other cultures allow a greater freedom of emotional expression your focus, what you're describing here is not a lack of privilege - it's a problem, or neutrally a property.

    Now, when you do make other parties who do not face this problem or property involved in your discussion, you can use privilege to describe how communication and understanding breaks down, but you always have to take the second step: Why does it break down? Why can't people understand those who've been through more horrible experiences? It's because not having had this experience themselves, they are ignorant of the true suffering the unfortunate ones had to endure.

    Why? Because they're "privileged" - but there's your problem. You can be privileged in one area (have a lot of money) but not another (you watched your family burn alive). Calling someone sum-total "privileged" is reductionist and can be offensive to those living in true pain despite the fact that they're able to eat 3 meals a day. It's a word that starts more fights and misunderstandings than it solves, so it helps to cut out the middleman and be specific.

    Which is solved entirely by divorcing the concepts of privilege and suffering, as they are not the same thing. Explaining the difference between the two, like using the footrace thing, is how you start this being a useful conversation. Everyone's pain is worthy of sympathy. That doesn't mean everyone has the same remedies available to treat the pain.

    Yes, privilege and suffering should be divorced, because it is not guaranteed that a person who has certain privileges suffers less, although usually having key privileges mitigates the extent of this suffering. However, issues such as healthcare access have little in common with criticisms of privilege on an individual level. When a person fails to understand why, when a homeless man breaks his foot he does not go to the hospital and now has to get an amputation, this is directly due to this person's ignorance of the experience. Privilege may be a factor but it is not the only factor, and focusing on it leaves a whole lot of the problem unsolved.

    Whereas, if you're not talking about anybody in particular, but are considering whole faceless population trends, you can afford to utilize privilege averages because it's a quick and dirty way to look for trends in a general direction. It's sensitive, not specific. On a case-by-case basis, you're better off going back to the drawing board and looking for other factors instead of using privilege as a base and deriving every behavior from its sole influence.

    I can't think of any compelling reason why this argument is true. I can just as easily detail out the specific advantages guy X would have being a high-school educated person who watches TV between his shifts at Burger King and the homeless guy when it comes to dealing with a leg wound on an individual level in relation to privilege in a way that is non destructive.

    The Burger King employee may have:
    -Health insurance, or at least knowledge that such insurance exists and a vague idea as to why.
    -Has seen medical television shows rampant on TV and the consequences of festering (or other such common media access).
    -Has access to public transportation or a support network to provide transport to medical facilities.
    -Have a generalized understanding of where a hospital might be, how to enter one and ask for treatment, and a rough understanding of what that treatment may entail.
    -The ability to identify a damaging injury in relation to the rest of his existence as he can focus on it over more immediate ailments such as hunger or thirst.

    And that's just without looking at education, birth situation, mental capacity/ailments and more.

    On the other hand, the homeless guy could (hypothetically):
    - Not having a domicile, be situated right next to the hospital
    - Have a repeat record on file and more familiarity with the ED than the average person
    - Have no current obligations or schedules that preclude him from taking care of his health
    - Having no wage, the entirety of medical care is subsidized and of no cost to him

    These are "privileges" of being homeless, taken a la carte and obviously out of context of deficits that may mitigate or cancel them out, without regard to how they actually pertain to the tragedy at hand. It is topically worthwhile to note that while the healthcare law is commendable in providing insurance to the uninsured, in reality it could have had a lot more impact by focusing on the underinsured like Burger King guy probably is.

    So when people argue from a standpoint of privilege, either pointing to privilege in general or only citing the privileges a person enjoys, they lose sight of how much that privilege actually matters. Maybe these privileges are useless in certain contexts or canceled out by the lack of certain necessary co-privileges. Do you know how to sort that out and explain why certain decisions are made or not made? Knowing the true experience - the true suffering - the person endures as a result of all the factors of their being, privilege included but not sufficient.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Why do you have to say MEAN things about the people who are murdering you? We're all humans, watch your tone, and try not to bleed on my privilege.

    #notallmurderers

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    PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    If how a word makes you feel is enough for you to dismiss/diminish how life feels for an entire group of people, you a damn asshole

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    curly haired boycurly haired boy Your Friendly Neighborhood Torgue Dealer Registered User regular
    reminds me of my favorite part about the occupy protests

    the various editorials by the 1% upset that people didn't like them

    it's so very very important to those in power to enjoy the adulation - or, failing that, the unspoken grumblings - of those they oppress

    nothing imbues panic among the privileged than open and blatant anger and disgust

    because having money is one thing

    being hated is quite another


    my mother grew up during segregation and she has various horror stories to tell

    but she always reserved her deepest disgust not for those who were openly racist

    she hated those who pretended to sympathize, those who urged patience

    justice delayed is justice denied. and comfort is the enemy of progress.

    RxI0N.png
    Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
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    TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    Check your privilege! I got a right to bleed wherever and whenever I want.

    No you don't.

    http://rt.com/usa/180680-ferguson-henry-davis-blood/
    Nearly four years to the day before Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson opened fire and killed Brown, 18, a complaint filed in federal court accused the same law enforcement agency of violating the civil rights of a man who says he was badly beaten after being wrongly arrested, then later charged with “destruction of property” for bleeding on the uniforms of the cops alleged to have injured him.

    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
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    Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    The problem with using privilege the way people keep doing in internet arguments, i.e. inviting participants in a discussion to check theirs, is that it tends to obscure the possibility that disprivilege is just as liable to color or distort someone's perception of an issue.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    I don't understand what you are advocating, Paladin. None of those things you listed are privileges in the context of the term used here.

    The argument rings vaguely to the tune of the "but hypothetically one person could be abusing welfare so everyone is a cheat" rhetoric, which I'm not sure is your point or position. But it is how it feels on reading it.

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Privilege of any sort is lacking the ability (or more often, the desire) to look outside one's little reality bubble and see other people as people and not just supporting actors in one's personal play. You can argue semantics about what exactly privilege means, compare levels of suffering, and nit-pick to death, but that all is just a good way to talk around the ultimate problem which is that each and every one of us is inherently biased toward ourselves (or, in a few fringe cases, against ourselves), and until a person can recognize his or her tendency to view his or her own life as more valuable than everyone else's, nothing of value can be accomplished in this sort of discussion. If people want the benefits of a society, they need to start caring about what's best for the society, regardless of whether it's what's best for them personally.

    The reason semantics are important is that some people will think "privilege - n. a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people" and see your definition of "privileged - adv. lacking the ability (or more often, the desire) to look outside one's little reality bubble and see other people as people and not just supporting actors in one's personal play" and think you're arguing that everyone that fits the first definition also fits the second definition. Like, you can't be privileged without being privileged. You can see where the confusion comes from.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    L Ron HowardL Ron Howard The duck MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    TheStig wrote: »
    Check your privilege! I got a right to bleed wherever and whenever I want.

    No you don't.

    I know. :(

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    FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    "Hey Jackass", Chicago murderstatistics in an informative yet probably somewhat offensive form.
    http://heyjackass.com/

    On the upside, apparently Chicago guns are feminists (unlike their users). The survival rate from being shot is absolutely equal between the genders.
    Also, the Austin and Englewood neighbourhoods might want to consider applying for the "Warzone" status.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    Where I think a lot of privileged people, primarily white straight cis men, get antsy when privilege comes up as a topic is they can't tell the difference between fault and responsibility.

    I harp about this distinction a lot because it's important and it's one people overlook in a lot of areas.

    They hear talk about privilege and what they are taking from it is how their privilege is their fault, how they should feel bad about being white or cis or whatever because other people are not that and they objectively have it worse.

    So the privileged get all defensive about it, either getting all "Why should I feel bad just because I have it easier on account of being white? I didn't choose to be white, you know! It's not my fault that black people have it worse than me, I'm not a racist. Racism isn't my fault just because I have this so-called 'white privilege'."

    But it's not about fault. Nobody is blaming you unless you're actually part of the problem and contributing to it.

    It's about responsibility. Not responsibility for other people, and what they've done and are doing, but responsibility for yourself and your own privilege. It's about acknowledging and understanding how privilege influences and shapes your life and using that as a net good for the world around you.

    The step 1 of that is acknowledging that privilege exists, that you have some, and where you do and do not have it. If you can't do that without feeling guilty, anxious, ashamed, annoyed, angry, or flippant about the very idea of privilege, then you aren't past step 1.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Why do you have to say MEAN things about the people who are murdering you? We're all humans, watch your tone, and try not to bleed on my privilege.

    I don't know about others, but I think at worst what I've said here is more of a "Maybe shoot at one of the ten murderers assaulting you than at the guy only holding the eleventh back (when clearly he could have been holding two)." That guy probably should have done more, as others willing to protect whole-heartedly are holding back two or three murderers at a time, and his lack of effort is noted and worth pointing out. But perhaps not at the same level as the murderers themselves.

    When my dad transitioned a lot of her coworkers actively tried to get her fired. Plenty didn't and advocated for her to keep her job. Some didn't do either and just stayed out of it. Some said one thing and did another. There weren't really any universal sides there (especially as my dad was often a jerk at the time due to the constant pressures of living as not herself). Five years later, most everyone but the ones who advocated for her to be fired are friends and ok with her as she was always meant to be. If she had held their silence against them, that probably wouldn't have allowed that to happen. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing from the trans perspective because I am not trans. I'm a cis white male with a decent income, I can't really know that pain beyond having seen it secondhand. Is it fair to let people who stood aside and didn't do as much as they could be considered allies? I don't know that either. Probably it isn't.

    But I do know my dad is much happier having people who accept her, even if it took a while for them to do so. She also had a lot of privilege being born white and in a nice community that assisted in getting her a job that paid well enough to be able to use corporate culture to back her transition and keep her job. Plenty of people without those gifts would have faced far worse a time.

    Your position here isn't wrong. I just want to share where mine is coming from, for as little as it is worth.

This discussion has been closed.