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The Ferguson Protests

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    The point I was trying to make is that understanding and accepting privilege as a concept requires a degree of self awareness and care for others that does not come naturally. People of privilege tend to resist the conversation because it's threatening their very world view. Getting stuck in arguments about the word itself is exactly the kind of defense mechanism that comes up to distract from the actual problem

    On the contrary, brainstorming about it has given me some ideas on how to broach the topic to the wary

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    That is awesome and I hope they follow through on it because I sure would like to trust police again.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

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    EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    And oh god our evil clown overlords whyyy

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    Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    Universal healthcare!

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    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.
    "Donut? What's a donut?"

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    Universal healthcare!

    Predominantly unarmed police!

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    I would argue that accusing someone of being ignorant is far more likely to make them immediately dismiss the words that follow than saying that someone is speaking from a position of privilege.

    You don't have to call people ignorant; you can teach them instead. That's why I think it's better than privilege.

    Anyway, if nobody but me learned anything, then I lost the argument. My on topic light blinks harder with every post, and it's blinking really hard now, so I won't distract you from talking about what you want and need to talk about.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Xehalus wrote: »
    my local police is putting out ads about having a number you can call to report abuse of power and stating their mission is to serve the public

    I hope this is a trend
    In other news that I hope would become a wide spread trend:
    Heard on the radio that my local police are looking to purchase something like 800 new body cameras after the 125 camera pilot program was a success.
    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26417279/denver-police-are-asking-800-body-cameras-officers
    "Citizens should know officers are being held accountable," White said. "The only officers who would have a problem with body cameras are bad officers."

    see317 on
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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I think we've covered this a lot on this forum in particular before, but it definitely should not be the responsibility of the oppressed to educate.

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    DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    1. Living as a brit is a bonus in my estimation

    2. If tacos don't exist in this alternate universe, then I invent tacos/become wealthy

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    I would argue that accusing someone of being ignorant is far more likely to make them immediately dismiss the words that follow than saying that someone is speaking from a position of privilege.

    You don't have to call people ignorant; you can teach them instead. That's why I think it's better than privilege.

    Anyway, if nobody but me learned anything, then I lost the argument. My on topic light blinks harder with every post, and it's blinking really hard now, so I won't distract you from talking about what you want and need to talk about.

    You want to argue over which term to use to describe the problem people have understanding an inherent disparity in circumstances, and then not use either of the terms when trying to explain it to them.

    Okay.

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    Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    Universal healthcare!

    Predominantly unarmed police!

    Attractive people with alarmingly sexy accents! Also, tea! And antiques! And really cute countryside cottages and stuff!

    I love tacos but this is all seeming better and better.

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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    1. Living as a brit is a bonus in my estimation

    2. If tacos don't exist in this alternate universe, then I invent tacos/become wealthy

    Your name in this universe will be WealthyWealthyVagrant.

    488W936.png
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    LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    I would argue that accusing someone of being ignorant is far more likely to make them immediately dismiss the words that follow than saying that someone is speaking from a position of privilege.

    You don't have to call people ignorant; you can teach them instead. That's why I think it's better than privilege.

    Anyway, if nobody but me learned anything, then I lost the argument. My on topic light blinks harder with every post, and it's blinking really hard now, so I won't distract you from talking about what you want and need to talk about.

    you can teach them things like... the actual (academically agreed upon) definition of the term "privilege" and how it functions in society? instead of hand wringing over the semantics and/or confusing it with a lack of empathy?

    utter madness

    f24GSaF.jpg
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    Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    1. Living as a brit is a bonus in my estimation

    2. If tacos don't exist in this alternate universe, then I invent tacos/become wealthy

    Your name in this universe will be WealthyWealthyVagrant.

    I boo the Taco!

    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    Universal healthcare!

    Predominantly unarmed police!

    Attractive people with alarmingly sexy accents! Also, tea! And antiques! And really cute countryside cottages and stuff!

    I love tacos but this is all seeming better and better.

    Tacos can be replaced by Cornish pasties.

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    1. Living as a brit is a bonus in my estimation

    2. If tacos don't exist in this alternate universe, then I invent tacos/become wealthy

    Your name in this universe will be WealthyWealthyVagrant.

    More like Dirtydirtymoneybags

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    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    1. Living as a brit is a bonus in my estimation

    2. If tacos don't exist in this alternate universe, then I invent tacos/become wealthy

    Your name in this universe will be WealthyWealthyVagrant.

    I bet being a vagrant would be fun if you were doing it by choice and had money to fall back on.

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    I think we've covered this a lot on this forum in particular before, but it definitely should not be the responsibility of the oppressed to educate.
    It's the responsibility of the knowledgeable to educate if they expect others to be knowledgeable. Some may be oppressed, some may not. The responsibility isn't based on who is oppressed, it's based on who has the knowledge to dispel ignorance.

    However, if the oppressed don't speak up, they cannot expect change. It should not be that way, but this is never going to be an ideal world. Unfortunately oppression cannot be changed without concerted and nearly inhuman efforts. This is why those who fight oppression are treated as mythic figures.

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    Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.
    "Donut? What's a donut?"

    What are you talking about? We have doughnuts.

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    LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    I think we've covered this a lot on this forum in particular before, but it definitely should not be the responsibility of the oppressed to educate.
    It's the responsibility of the knowledgeable to educate if they expect others to be knowledgeable. Some may be oppressed, some may not. The responsibility isn't based on who is oppressed, it's based on who has the knowledge to dispel ignorance.

    However, if the oppressed don't speak up, they cannot expect change. It should not be that way, but this is never going to be an ideal world. Unfortunately oppression cannot be changed without concerted and nearly inhuman efforts. This is why those who fight oppression are treated as mythic figures.

    seems awful close to the idea of outing closeted LGBT people in order to force them to vocally support the cause

    Lockout on
    f24GSaF.jpg
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    WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    If I had any sense I'd stay out of the privilege discussion, but apparently I don't.

    When the subject of privileged is broached, it's usually in one of two ways:

    1) Calmly and academically, using specific examples ("coming from a rich white family allowed you to get a good education with very little debt, and you can't assume that a black person is going to go through life with that kind of safety net").

    2) With extreme hostility, in the vein of, "You're white, so you're incapable of experiencing anything thai I acknowledge as suffering and you have no business having any sort of opinion in this discussion."

    I see the latter quite a lot. So what happens is people run into that attitude a few times, assume that everyone who ever uses the word "privilege" is being hostile for the sake of being hostile, abandon the whole concept, and are no longer willing to reevaluate their position when someone later tries to explain what privilege actually means and why it's so critical to understanding social dynamics. Meanwhile, the people who provoked that response likewise probably started out with a more conciliatory attitude, ran into a nasty string of uncooperative people, and gave up, assuming that everyone who doesn't immediately profess white guilt is de facto uneducateable.

    The exact same thing happened with the word "cis", where people went years without ever hearing it in any context other than "die cis scum", wrote it off as a slur, and refused to reevaluate their understanding later on.

    The exact same thing happened with the whole feminisim/#notallmen situation.

    Changing the word wouldn't do anything because this issue has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with how rival social groups tend to communicate and generalize with one another as a general human principle. Any new word you pick will see the same pattern.

    What would probably help is if people treated privilege as less of a binary personal attribute where you have it or you don't, and more of a collection of different (albeit frequently interrelated) social trends.

    A trans woman from a rich family with a modest inheritance and no student loans is socioeconomically privileged as FUCK compared to a poor trans woman who was in debt before she started transitioning. She might even be socioeconomically privileged over some poor cis people. But, at the same time, they both face challenges that a cis person doesn't, including many that wealth doesn't protect you against at all. Putting the rich trans woman into a contest against the poor cis person to decide who is more deserving of wearing the scarlet P is super not useful at all, because economic privilage and gender identity privilege are both independently* important sociological concepts.

    But when faced with a hypothetical cripplingly poor cis white male person, the prevailing attitude is often, "You're white, you're a member of the Privileged Group(tm), and as a consequence your poverty is of little to no relevance", when it would probably be more useful to say, "You're legitimately economically disadvantaged, but even given that, being white confers to you protection from other things, such as running afoul of police brutality or getting passed over for college admission."

    *They aren't LITERALLY independent, since the poor trans person is actually in a much more precarious position than the poor cis person for a number of reasons, but they're not synonymous either.

    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
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    fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell #BLMRegistered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    Universal healthcare!

    Predominantly unarmed police!

    Attractive people with alarmingly sexy accents! Also, tea! And antiques! And really cute countryside cottages and stuff!

    I love tacos but this is all seeming better and better.

    Tacos can be replaced by Cornish pasties.

    so the moral of the story is, we're currently in the bad timeline and need a TARDIS and/or DeLorean and/or Sam Beckett to put things right that once went wrong.

    ffNewSig.png
    steam | Dokkan: 868846562
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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg


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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Lockout wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    I think we've covered this a lot on this forum in particular before, but it definitely should not be the responsibility of the oppressed to educate.
    It's the responsibility of the knowledgeable to educate if they expect others to be knowledgeable. Some may be oppressed, some may not. The responsibility isn't based on who is oppressed, it's based on who has the knowledge to dispel ignorance.

    However, if the oppressed don't speak up, they cannot expect change. It should not be that way, but this is never going to be an ideal world. Unfortunately oppression cannot be changed without concerted and nearly inhuman efforts. This is why those who fight oppression are treated as mythic figures.

    seems awful close to the idea of outing closeted LGBT people in order to force them to vocally support the cause

    If the world was a binary "do this or you are to blame" sure. But the world is not binary.
    You can fail to act without being guilty or responsible.
    You can choose not to educate without being responsible for ignorance.
    You can want change without being able to enact it.
    You can be oppressed without wanting to act.
    Everyone can think differently from everyone else.

    The world is not the idealistic dream we sell ourselves about how things should be, or how evil should be obvious and morality is clear cut.

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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg


    I don't know what that is, but I wants it all inside me

    JtgVX0H.png
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    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.
    "Donut? What's a donut?"

    What are you talking about? We have doughnuts.

    I can't find a clip, but it's referencing The Simpsons Treehouse of Horror V.
    V1m wrote: »
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg

    Reminds me of käsekuchen. This is a good thing.

    OmnipotentBagel on
    cdci44qazyo3.gif

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg


    I don't know what that is, but I wants it all inside me

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/yorkshire_curd_tart_20002

    If I'm destined to derail, I may as well derail deliciously.

    EDIT: they're extra super fucking nice with a glass of chilled Fino sherry

    V1m on
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    PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.
    "Donut? What's a donut?"

    What are you talking about? We have doughnuts.

    Doughnuts is cheating at Scrabble.

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    tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    .
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    Universal healthcare!

    Predominantly unarmed police!

    Attractive people with alarmingly sexy accents!

    what? wait, where? I'm missing out!

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    LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    Wyvern wrote: »
    snip snap

    You're comparing running into crazy rhetoric on extremist parts of tumblr and "all PIV is rape" radfem blogs to the sort of bigoted shit you see from people in real life, out in the world. People aren't normally going to run into the former unless they go mining for it online (or visit /r/TumblrInAction) whereas you can walk outside and run into the latter

    And if someone refuses to listen to reason after encountering "SJWs" on the internet, chances are they were never going to come around anyway

    f24GSaF.jpg
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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg


    I don't know what that is, but I wants it all inside me

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/yorkshire_curd_tart_20002

    If I'm destined to derail, I may as well derail deliciously.

    What's it taste like? I keep imagining it tastes like a lemon bar or creme brulee or cheesecake and I'm nearly drooling over here

    JtgVX0H.png
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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    tynic wrote: »
    .
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.

    Universal healthcare!

    Predominantly unarmed police!

    Attractive people with alarmingly sexy accents!

    what? wait, where? I'm missing out!

    *sucks in gut

    *arches eyebrow

    Helloooo

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg


    I don't know what that is, but I wants it all inside me

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/yorkshire_curd_tart_20002

    If I'm destined to derail, I may as well derail deliciously.

    What's it taste like? I keep imagining it tastes like a lemon bar or creme brulee or cheesecake and I'm nearly drooling over here

    Cheesecake crossed with custard flavoured with nutmeg and currants and lemon is closest but not exactly but fairly close

    I mean look I linked a recipe


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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    There was a thing not so long ago where someone was trying to demand one of the Game Grumps to out themself under the pretense that it's going to help young LGBT folk that watch their show

    It was some tremendous mistreatment of said Grump - and is also a reminder that nobody is responsible for representing any minority group they belong to.

    Miss me? Find me on:

    Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
    Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg


    I don't know what that is, but I wants it all inside me

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/yorkshire_curd_tart_20002

    If I'm destined to derail, I may as well derail deliciously.

    What's it taste like? I keep imagining it tastes like a lemon bar or creme brulee or cheesecake and I'm nearly drooling over here

    Cheesecake crossed with custard flavoured with nutmeg and currants and lemon is closest but not exactly but fairly close

    I mean look I linked a recipe


    I can't figure out exactly how a thing tastes by looking at a list of ingredients! I need descriptions, like you just gave! You make it sound wonderful, by the way, and now I'm going to try and bug my wife into making some.

    JtgVX0H.png
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    RandomEncounterRandomEncounter Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Enc wrote: »
    I dream of a day where tee shirts and popular music lyrics unironically say "TRUST THE POLICE"

    That would be a good alternative universe to find yourself in, until you realize that tacos never existed and we're still part of the British Empire.
    "Donut? What's a donut?"

    What are you talking about? We have doughnuts.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-VWLim2omk

    this terrible quality video is the only one i could find after an exhaustive ten second search

    RandomEncounter on
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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Darmak wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    I don't even know how the thread got to this place but I do know I love you guys dearly

    I'm a little meh about do(ugh)nuts but I do love curd tarts, they are from my homeland and are sacred to my people here is a picture:
    yorkshire_curd_tart_20002_16x9.jpg


    I don't know what that is, but I wants it all inside me

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/yorkshire_curd_tart_20002

    If I'm destined to derail, I may as well derail deliciously.

    What's it taste like? I keep imagining it tastes like a lemon bar or creme brulee or cheesecake and I'm nearly drooling over here

    Cheesecake crossed with custard flavoured with nutmeg and currants and lemon is closest but not exactly but fairly close

    I mean look I linked a recipe


    I can't figure out exactly how a thing tastes by looking at a list of ingredients! I need descriptions, like you just gave! You make it sound wonderful, by the way, and now I'm going to try and bug my wife into making some.

    Secretly make it for her and confound her unexamined gender essentialist assumptions!

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Srs tho, chicks love curd tart

This discussion has been closed.