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Ferguson

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Posts

  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity What a lovely day for tea Secret British ThreadRegistered User regular
    This thread has three god damn pages

    Y'all need to pay attention to this

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    DiannaoChong
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    It was split off from the general policing thread because we were dominating the discussion over there, cut us some slack.

    LilnoobsShadowen
  • Ethan SmithEthan Smith Origin name: Beart4to Arlington, VARegistered User regular
    I get _j_'s point but I'm more concerned that the appointment of Johnson has done such a good job at diffusing the situation that we're going to lose track of the goal of the protests.

    I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from the ranks..
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    is kettling now an unacceptable response to large protests, because that definitely wasn't the tenor in yesterday's brief spiel of remarks on riot policing in [chat]

    Kettling is an approach to policing protests that seems to exist mostly so that police can feel comfortable and up their numbers rather than in the pursuit of preventing any negative action on the part of protestors.

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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    from page 1 -
    TOGSolid wrote: »

    there's some degree of revisionism here, one that makes the argument go off course

    the 1999 WTO protests marked the revival of illegalist direct action tactics during mass protests in the US (it reappeared about two decades earlier in Western Europe). these tactics were themselves evolved in response to the very same kind of police tactics that the article goes on to praise - namely, peaceful mostly-cooperative eviction - that direct action activists came to see as representative of the corruption/weakness of protesters dedicated to passive resistance (i.e. the kind of protesters that focus on making it easier for themselves to be injured, e.g., by stuffing their limbs into pipes, that sort of thing. Remember those?).

    if you have protesters who are dedicated to direct action, then Salt-Lake-City style eviction described in the article is weak; the whole point of the tactic is to prevent such evictions from being successful at dismantling protest sites, and forcing a physical confrontation with the police

    it's been more than a decade since 1999 and, at least in the US, swaggering rhetoric about the power of direct action against the state has largely shifted from the left to the right. Occupy went through a period of angst where its leading organisers took pains to publicly denounce direct action. It was always dubious to convince oneself that one can out-bomb the riot police, so some evolution in attitudes is to be expected. But the important point is that there is no one universally-applicable way for police to respond to protests - rather, it is a continually shifting landscape of police tactics against protester tactics. There are scenarios where rolling in the armoured trucks is sensible - e.g., when the use of molotov cocktails and opportunistic attacks on despised local enemies has become institutionalized amongst protesters. It is hard to envision a scenario where a Belfast protest will turn out better with fewer armoured officers and cars.

    how can the police keep up with what protesters intend to do? well, this is the bit where 'engagement with the community' and a deeper empathy with the discontented comes into play. That doesn't mean agreement - to bring up Belfast as an example again, one doesn't have to agree to sense that what loyalists want is a right to march through republican neighbourhoods and vice versa, to predictable results (and that the answer should be a continual denial of this desire). But there must be some sense of the scope of the dispute.

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    belligerent
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    is kettling now an unacceptable response to large protests, because that definitely wasn't the tenor in yesterday's brief spiel of remarks on riot policing in [chat]

    Kettling is an approach to policing protests that seems to exist mostly so that police can feel comfortable and up their numbers rather than in the pursuit of preventing any negative action on the part of protestors.

    it is a direct answer to the tactic of smashing things and then vanishing into a fast-moving crowd, by making the crowd not fast moving at all, to put it simply

    things are still smashed but in a much smaller area

    what do you suggest instead?

    aRkpc.gif
  • SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Officer named. Darren Wilson.

    Edit: They've released details of a forced robbery that took place before the shooting, of which he was on the scene. The police department isn't explicitely linking the two, but it appears the narrative is that of being mistaken for the one who commited the robbery.

    Suriko on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I think you are probably reading that situation wrong, @_J_‌

    I get where you're coming from, but I think the change in the tone of reporting is because of how much of a 180 this situation turned once they brought in police weren't treating the civilian population like enemy combatants in a military zone.

    Elvenshae
  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Bogart wrote: »

    Talk about being on the wrong side of history here.

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  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    No disciplinary action taken. At all.

    wtf

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Ferguson is also apparently the place where a man arrested in a case of mistaken identity was charged with property damage for getting blood on a police officer's shirt.

  • mxmarksmxmarks Registered User regular
    Heads up - friends in news said the live stream of that presser was insane before most networks covered it. On Mic about 40 before the presser you can hear his assistant saying "no no we can't move it everyone is here."

    Among other things indicating this chief was stalling like crazy. I'm sure the video will leak at some point.

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    Vanguard
  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I thought bad cop, good cop was only in the movies yet local police and state police seem to be doing a fine job of reenacting it. That plus they escalated the situation to the boiling point and it's now simmering down to, you know, give folks some semblance that they won. I believe that's called a pyrrhic victory right there.

    Crayon on
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  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    ronya wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    is kettling now an unacceptable response to large protests, because that definitely wasn't the tenor in yesterday's brief spiel of remarks on riot policing in [chat]

    Kettling is an approach to policing protests that seems to exist mostly so that police can feel comfortable and up their numbers rather than in the pursuit of preventing any negative action on the part of protestors.

    it is a direct answer to the tactic of smashing things and then vanishing into a fast-moving crowd, by making the crowd not fast moving at all, to put it simply

    things are still smashed but in a much smaller area

    what do you suggest instead?

    abolish the wage system

    TL DREthan SmithCalica
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it is tantamount to defeat.

    So, no?

    ronyaHakkekageElvenshaejoshofalltradesGnome-Interruptusshryke
  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    it's interesting comparing sources of reporting on this story between the typical media outlets, here, and something like drudge. Drudge would have you believe that an afro-islamic offshoot of the black panthers — that are specifically displeased with obama — have taken over parts of the city.

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    No disciplinary action taken. At all.

    wtf

    link?

    Delmain
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    This thread has three god damn pages

    Y'all need to pay attention to this

    There's like a hundred pages of discussion in the police thread, so...

    Lh96QHG.png
    Delmain
  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it is tantamount to defeat.

    So, no?

    Yes? If nothing comes of this except "the state police sure are nice" and everyone walks away without anything coming of it then it most certainly is.

    "I am conscious of my inability to grasp, in all its details and positive developments, any very large portion of human knowledge."
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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    kaleedity wrote: »
    it's interesting comparing sources of reporting on this story between the typical media outlets, here, and something like drudge. Drudge would have you believe that an afro-islamic offshoot of the black panthers — that are specifically displeased with obama — have taken over parts of the city.

    if you dig through papers from the 1960s and 1970s directly covering the CRM, such fear and misinformation seems typical (the keyword is "communists", though)

    it is only after the fact that everyone pretends that they totally didn't believe all that stuff

    aRkpc.gif
    GethkaleedityFrankiedarling
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Crayon wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it is tantamount to defeat.

    So, no?

    Yes? If nothing comes of this except "the state police sure are nice" and everyone walks away without anything coming of it then it most certainly is.

    If everyone walks away without anything coming of it it's not a victory. It's a defeat. If people walk away with nothing coming of it except the idle thought that the state police sure are nice then it would be 'cold comfort', or a 'silver lining'.

    AManFromEarthGnome-Interruptus
  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    Ugh. That's what I'm saying. It seems I may have used the wrong word, that there's the belief of victory yet they lost more and gained nothing. That seems to fit the definition, but this seems to be semantics anyhow, or me just being a dummy dumb.

    "I am conscious of my inability to grasp, in all its details and positive developments, any very large portion of human knowledge."
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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    racial policy reform was probably not going to happen in ferguson anyway, in part because a mostly white national media wrote its own pet issue of police militarization into it

    aRkpc.gif
  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    Ferguson PD has handed out a sunshine packet that names Darren Wilson as the shooting officer (a name that was directly denied earlier on). It paints a narrative of Brown swiping a box of cigars from a convenience store in a strongarm robbery. There are also some rather unclear surveillance pictures that nobody, at least in the media, are able to tell if it's even Brown or not. All they have is Brown 'fitting the description'.

    Not part of the packet: any report whatsoever from Wilson or any narrative of the shooting. Or the use of force report that was asked for in the first place. The people of Ferguson have promptly restarted protests because they are not satisfied.

    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
    Vanguard
  • SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ferguson PD has handed out a sunshine packet that names Darren Wilson as the shooting officer (a name that was directly denied earlier on). It paints a narrative of Brown swiping a box of cigars from a convenience store in a strongarm robbery. There are also some rather unclear surveillance pictures that nobody, at least in the media, are able to tell if it's even Brown or not. All they have is Brown 'fitting the description'.

    Not part of the packet: any report whatsoever from Wilson or any narrative of the shooting. Or the use of force report that was asked for in the first place. The people of Ferguson have promptly restarted protests because they are not satisfied.

    Not surprised, given that the entire presser amounted to "It, err, was, uh, um, Darren Wilson and oh hey look at this robbery we're going to spend our time talking about."

  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »

    siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

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  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    It just smacks of the "bury media in irrelevant bullshit" method of "complying" with a sunshine request. Someone asks for two pages of something and you send them 8 million pages of stuff that has nothing to do with it, and you hope they throw their hands up and go away before noticing the two pages they actually asked for aren't among the 8 million pages they got. Which, like, never works.

    Besides, if you're going to bury the media in bullshit, BURY them in bullshit. If it's a packet they can sift through in 15 minutes, they're going to notice real fast that you didn't give them what they asked for.

    Gosling on
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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    After the press conference ended and the police chief left was there the sound of a car door slamming shut and tires peeling away and then the far-off sound of a plane taking off?

    OneAngryPossumEthan Smith
  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly has links to stills from the robbery and what looks like redacted pages from the police report. I'm sure better quality stuff will be released by the media soon.

    Surprise.
    - Spy
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/us/darren-wilson-identified-as-officer-in-fatal-shooting-in-ferguson-missouri.html?_r=0

    The Ferguson police chief, Thomas Jackson, said the officer was Darren Wilson, a six-year veteran of the force who had no disciplinary actions taken against him.

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown

    The officer was identified as Darren Wilson, who is white, and has been on the police force for six years. He is currently on paid administrative leave.

    In his brief appearance before the media, Jackson said that no disciplinary action had been taken against Wilson. Brown was not believed to have a criminal record, either.


    Okay apparently no -prior- disciplinary actions. But paid administrative leave?

    Trace on
  • CogCog Registered User regular
    I don't particularly give a shit if Brown stole cigars or not. You don't shoot robbery suspects to death full stop.

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  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    Well...he did just shoot a kid, so leave is standard I'd think for several reasons.

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  • CogCog Registered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    Okay apparently no -prior- disciplinary actions. But paid administrative leave?

    SOP for any LEO who shoots a suspect.

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  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Cog wrote: »
    I don't particularly give a shit if Brown stole cigars or not. You don't shoot robbery suspects to death full stop.

    Paid administrative leave or desk duty is pretty common for officers who do heinous shit. I'm sure there are examples, but I can't remember a single instance of an officer being outright suspended without pay.

  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    It's not necessarily because the officer was assumed to have done something wrong, it's so that officers aren't out on duty while a) the department figures out if the shooting was justified and b) the officer might be going through some shit.

    why's the leave paid? because the police union.

    the department are still being shitbags -- none of their release addresses the actual events of the officer shooting michael brown 10 times. i don't think anyone's going to just accept what they've released as good enough calm down until the investigation into the shooting is over.

  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    If no disciplinary action is taken, the only lesson black men in Ferguson can really take is that ifyou fight back against the cops as if your life depended on it, should you be told to lie down and you know you are innocent, you at least have better odds.

    He was about to go to college for fuck's sake. He was a "good" black man rather than a thuggy hipper-rapper. But nope. Still dead with impunity thanks to some yokel who really should know a little better.

    Some areas just need a moratorium on white male police force applicants.

    Absalon on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Absalon wrote: »
    Some areas just need a moratorium on white male police force applicants.

    Okay so no white folks can be police officers.

    What happens when no blacks or latinos want the job?

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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    I don't particularly give a shit if Brown stole cigars or not. You don't shoot robbery suspects to death full stop.

    Of course not. Now the argument's going to be about what happened on the side of the road after the cop told them to get the fuck on the sidewalk (I believe that was the quote). Does Ferguson not have dash-cams in their cars? Or was the cop in a personal vehicle?

    It's also my understanding that the robbery hadn't even been called in (or called in at that point), so I don't believe the officer could have possibly been treating Brown as a robbery suspect. Maybe I've got that timeline wrong though...

  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Ferguson doesn't have dash-cams.

    They have like 2, but don't have any money to put them on the cruisers or something like that.

    syndalis wrote: »
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This discussion has been closed.