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Stopping someone from driving?
Shogun
Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered User regular
Hair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered User regular
My grandmother is about to turn 89. She has congestive heart failure along with a huge myriad of other issues. She cannot walk on her own. The last three attempts of walking on her own resulted in two falls and when I say falls they were nasty. She face planted into asphalt and fucked her face all up just stepping off a two inch curb. She and my aunt live together but they lead separate lives. My aunt drives her around for the most part, but not always. There is also some longstanding gear-grinding going on between the two. This is a family of petty, narcissistic ladies that do little passive aggressive things to each other to get back at one another.
For example they attend different churches. My aunt goes to her church leaving my ancient gran to drive herself a good 20 miles to the next town to attend her own church. My mother has taken the responsibility of ferrying to and from church on sundays. Well if my mom wakes up with a migraine or something and cannot drive her Gran will just get in her car and drive herself. The last faceplant she did was when she drove herself to church for the very reason I just wrote out.
This has to stop. She cannot drive anymore but she will not listen to reason. This is an actual quote from her, "lol driving is easier than walking" (AND YET GRANDMOM WHEN YOU WERE A TODDLER YOU LEARNED TO WALK THEY DIDNT HAND YOU ANY FUCKING CAR KEYS) She knows she should not be driving and she knows her family wants her to stop. She knows so much that she keeps her car keys in her front pants pocket at all times. They are never out of reach. I am not making this up. My mom has laid this at my feet because she doesn't want to be the bad guy and she does not want to do anything clandestine or surreptitious.
I, on the other hand, have zero qualms with doing anything of the nature. And I'm sick and tired of watching my useless family pussyfoot around this and wait for someone to get injured or worse killed. The only thing I'm not willing to do is just go over there and take them from her. Like if push came to super-duper-shove I would do that but I really don't want to be that guy.
I feel like my options are trick her into giving me the keys (I already did this once pretty sure I could do it again) or sabotage her vehicle. For reference it is a 2001 Toyota RAV-4. When I say sabotage this has to be thorough. She has AAA and she will nag and nag so disconnecting the battery cable or airing out a tire is not gonna cut it. I'd prefer not to do anything sugar in the gas tank either. This old lady also has a lot of money at her disposal and if it comes down to someone taking something of hers away she will use any or all of her resources to get what she wants.
Really hoping someone here has some genius idea I can steal. I realize how this reads. I realize I sound ridiculous but if you guys knew who this damn lady was and the family history it might make more sense. The bottom line is she has to stop driving.
For example they attend different churches. My aunt goes to her church leaving my ancient gran to drive herself a good 20 miles to the next town to attend her own church. My mother has taken the responsibility of ferrying to and from church on sundays. Well if my mom wakes up with a migraine or something and cannot drive her Gran will just get in her car and drive herself. The last faceplant she did was when she drove herself to church for the very reason I just wrote out.
This has to stop. She cannot drive anymore but she will not listen to reason. This is an actual quote from her, "lol driving is easier than walking" (AND YET GRANDMOM WHEN YOU WERE A TODDLER YOU LEARNED TO WALK THEY DIDNT HAND YOU ANY FUCKING CAR KEYS) She knows she should not be driving and she knows her family wants her to stop. She knows so much that she keeps her car keys in her front pants pocket at all times. They are never out of reach. I am not making this up. My mom has laid this at my feet because she doesn't want to be the bad guy and she does not want to do anything clandestine or surreptitious.
I, on the other hand, have zero qualms with doing anything of the nature. And I'm sick and tired of watching my useless family pussyfoot around this and wait for someone to get injured or worse killed. The only thing I'm not willing to do is just go over there and take them from her. Like if push came to super-duper-shove I would do that but I really don't want to be that guy.
I feel like my options are trick her into giving me the keys (I already did this once pretty sure I could do it again) or sabotage her vehicle. For reference it is a 2001 Toyota RAV-4. When I say sabotage this has to be thorough. She has AAA and she will nag and nag so disconnecting the battery cable or airing out a tire is not gonna cut it. I'd prefer not to do anything sugar in the gas tank either. This old lady also has a lot of money at her disposal and if it comes down to someone taking something of hers away she will use any or all of her resources to get what she wants.
Really hoping someone here has some genius idea I can steal. I realize how this reads. I realize I sound ridiculous but if you guys knew who this damn lady was and the family history it might make more sense. The bottom line is she has to stop driving.
+1
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The way you describe the situation, you can't even steal her car and drive it off a cliff to destroy it because she will just go buy a new car.
She needs to decide on her own that she needs to stop driving. You need to start some Inception type of watching IIHS crash tests and reading aloud news reports of local car crashes. Or something.
Who owns the car? You don't want to be in a position where you can get done for criminal damage, grand theft auto, etc. Cover yourself legally.
Maybe a compromise? She gives you the car and the keys, and you drive her everywhere. Downside, you are her chauffeur. Upside? You get a car.
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My Digital Pin Lanyard
Nail on the head DD. If I break the key off in her lock or ignition she will call the Toyota dealership and pay them to come pick the car up and tow it to the dealer. She will then pay the thousands for a new door, doorlock, ignition, or whatever is required to get her car back. I feel like she would not be able to outright go buy a new car because without transportation she could not get to a dealer to buy a new car. But knowing her she will call a cab when no one is there or something and she will find a way to a dealer to buy a new car.
She doesn't so much have a fear of losing her independence as she has a flat out refusal to do so. This is someone who has gotten what she wanted almost her entire life. And the last we'll say 30-40 years have been especially that way. She is the family matriarch ergo the most important person in the family.
Shogun Streams Vidya
Taking the keys is a good start, but it sounds like that's been done often enough that she anticipates it. It's not likely to work again, and she may get a spare key set if it keeps happening.
Second thing I'd suggest, get her policy numbers and talk to her insurance and AAA. You probably won't have the ability to cancel the policies, but making it clear that she's not physically able to drive safely may convince them to help you convince her not to drive. They may be able to recommend resources to help with the process as well.
If they're unable or unwilling to help then disabling the car may be your last option. If you go this route, don't do it subtly or in a way that may be mistaken for anything but intentionally disabling the car or that can be repaired quickly/easily. Maybe put the car up on jack stands and take the wheels, remove (not just disconnect) the battery, pull the fuses, that kind of thing. AAA may be happy to reconnect or recharge a battery or fill a low tire, but replacing all 4? Not so much. If you don't have a place to put 4 wheels/tires that AAA wouldn't be able to find easily, then get 15 feet (or so) of heavy chain and a padlock to lock all the tires together. The idea is to give the AAA guy enough time to think "Hey, maybe it wasn't an accident that this car was disabled and I should ask a question or two".
You might also look into alternatives to her driving. If she drives primarily to church and back, maybe speak with the head of her church and ask if there's any way to set up a car pool so somebody is driving her to/from church. Presumably, she's not the only person in her town that goes to the church in the other town.
Ideally, what David said is the best option (maybe not the best methodology, but...).
Convincing her not to drive is preferable, but if her memory is going, she may not remember that she shouldn't drive or why she shouldn't drive. In such a case, it may be necessary that the option to drive be removed, not just for her safety, but for the safety of the other drivers on the road.
http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/incident/TGHS-27770 Caregiver booklet 5.pdf
It basically lists all the shit we're talking about now. There is no legal recourse. I cannot take her down to the DMV and tell them to take her license away. She has passed her most recent vision test. Also I'm afraid that just taking her license away would not stop her.
My grandmother owns her car. Even if I got the keys I would not take the car. That is absolutely grand theft auto and I'm not about to do anything like that. I don't think she would call the police on me in that situation, but knowing her I'm not 100% on it. Either way I will not steal the car from her.
I have considered taking up more driving responsibility for her. I semi do not have the time and you are underestimating the demands this person would place on someone in that role. There is a reason my aunt doesn't want to drive her around 100% of the time.
Shogun Streams Vidya
this is something i had not considered and you're absolutely fucking right DD
goddamnit
Shogun Streams Vidya
Locally for us, you have to pass a medical exam (i.e. have a doctor sign a document and if the doctor lies, they become liable) saying she is still fit to drive, you have to do that every 2 years after 80. If not, she can't have a licence. It's more than just a vision test. As well, you can call in and put in concerns against a driver to have to be re-tested. Does your DMV have a call center? Call in and ask? or go in person to an office and see what kind of limits/holds or whatever can be added. I'm surprised it's just a vision test for that old.
88 year old killed a 90 year old in grocery store parking lot at low rate of speed so just didn't see her.
Ask is she wants to be that driver.
Hit her with the You're tearing me apart angle.
Buuuut it doesnt look like she'd buy that.
the first question is whether she's actually an unsafe driver; if she can move around and still has complete motor control (a bad fall nonwithstanding), it's possible she still is, at least in decent conditions. I mean we let 16 year olds drive, it really isn't that difficult. If she doesn't believe she's impaired it's going to be pretty difficult to convince her to stop driving.
As you've learned, there's basically no way to compel her to stop driving as long as she's still able to advocate for herself, so you're going to have to convince her. That pamphlet seems like a good resource, maybe go with her on a drive to church or wherever and see if she makes any of the performance errors it mentions, then talk to her about it afterward.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
No one is willing to get in a car with her if she is driving. She doesn't even really want to drive herself. It is the idea of completely losing the ability to do so that bothers her I think. Upon closer inspection of that State of Tennessee thing I can write a letter to the department of safety or some such accompanied with a letter from her doctor. The state may send her a thing saying she has to take a special test and if she can't pass it they will suspend her license. If she loses her license she loses her car insurance. No license and no car insurance is something she simply cannot argue with. And at that point if she does I will start considering vehicle sabotage.
She has no business driving a car. After the stroke she had earlier in the year she can barely maintain basic motor skills. She has a hard time keeping her eyes focused and she even has a hard time keeping herself focused on a task at hand. My family will not let her spend the night by herself if that gives you any idea what sort of state she is in. The neurologist after the stroke told her no more driving. Refused to listen. The eye doctor told her she may completely lose her sight within a year. Refuses to listen. Her shitass worthless fucking GP just said "that is something for the family to deal with not a doctor." (in response to whether or not she should be driving). If you couple all this with the medications she is taking she has zero business behind the wheel of a car. Her reaction times are so bad I don't think she could respond in time if she needed to.
This is also my final thought on a way to reason with her. My mother has power of attorney and her name is also on my gran's bank account and whatnot. We're going to sit down with Gran and explain that if she ends up killing someone she will ruin the family forever. God forbid if someone dies and there is a civil suit against my gran she'll lose everything. She has money but she is not rich. House, cars, assets, inheritances for her children will all be gone in the event of a wrongful death suit. The property and home she bought for my cousin would go as well. A wrongful death suit would have far reaching consequences for all of us. Even if Gran were to die in this hypothetical accident a wrongful death suit could still be brought against my mother as her name is tied to everything. Surely she could see this involves so much more than just herself. She is risking her entire family not to mention the safety of people out on the road.
Shogun Streams Vidya
You don't have to be mean spirited about it and you should certainly explain all the reasons you're doing it (her safety, others' safety, family finances, etc.) There's a good chance it will be awful but it'll be a lot less awful than something terrible happening to her or somebody else.
It may also get through to her in a way that simply explaining things won't.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Then one day her daughter's best friend, a guy who practically grew up in her house, was hit on his bike and dragged eleven blocks by an 80-year-old woman who couldn't see or hear passersby shouting at her to stop. He was left in a coma as his brain died over the course of a year, and from the moment she found out about the accident she said that would never be her, and she never picked up her keys again.
I don't have much advice for you, I'm afraid. I hope it doesn't take something that to get her to see that she shouldn't be behind the wheel. I do think that whatever you do you should try to keep it honest.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Your family could hire a person to drive her to church as well as one day per week of shopping/hairdressing/doctor/etc.
That might take some of the pressure off of your Aunt and Mom as well as helping Grandma retain her sense of independence.
Page 17 of that booklet has the following:
Page 18 also says this:
So on the basis of this, you need to talk to her doctor, write a letter to the TDOS and get the doctor to verify the medical issues you spoke of earlier. Don't let the doctor wuss out of doing it. From what you said earlier they are trying to avoid doing anything one way or the other. But this letter is to state the medical issues, which is exactly their area of expertise and their job.
That booklet has a list at the end of resources you can use to get her where she needs to go.
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My Digital Pin Lanyard
This is likely because with her inability to walk, once she gives up driving she is stuck. She is immobile.
No-one wants to be immobile and totally reliant on others.
Get her a decent mobility scooter and she'll likely give up driving.
Your family might.
Tell them you will be happy to do the talking, but you need to come together and explain all of your concerns to her. The risks to her, and to the community.
More importantly you and your family need to explain to her that you will be there to support her she does lose her license.
Satans..... hints.....
Your grandmother is independent, and wants to remain independent.
But she lives in the middle of nowhere and needs a car to remain independent.
Thus, your best solution is to get her a mobility scooter:
And move your grandmother to an apartment close by her church, a grocery store, a drug store, and restaurants.
Close enough that she can take her scooter everywhere, and won't think twice about getting in her car.
@knitdan my mom would never make that threat let alone follow through on it. Gran lives with my aunt because that is the arrangement they made. My aunt takes care of my Gran in her old age and Gran gives my aunt the house as her inheritance. It would be nice if my aunt and my gran weren't always rubbing each other the wrong way, but that shit goes all the way back to the 50's and I have no interest in trying to mediate that.
@November Fifth I like this idea but driving her will be a full time thing. She doesn't just go out one day per week. This 88 year old lady has schedules son. Bridge, Orchid Society, multiple trips for massages per week, eating out nearly every meal except for breakfast, etc etc. This is why I said earlier that we're underestimating the demands that would be placed on a driver.
@PedroAsani I posted about that previously and that is without a doubt an angle of attack I'm going to look into. I think her eye doctor alone would be enough but I'm going to speak with her neurologist as well. Between the eyes and the lack of response and motor coordination I feel like that should be enough. Also the public transportation "resources" in this state are a joke. ETHRA is the only thing available in this area and it is not ideal. Everything has to be scheduled 72 hours in advance unless it is a medical appointment which gets priority. I've also never seen an ETHRA transit vehicle operating on the weekend, but I could be and hope I'm wrong about that. Usually I see them all parked at the local community college campus.
I love the idea of a mobility scooter. I think it would involve having to modify her car so it could be ferried about with her, but I don't see why that would be a problem. My aunts car couldn't be modified because she refuses to buy cars and only leases, but they drive Gran's car almost everywhere anyway. And when they travel that is the only car they drive because my aunt refuses to rack up mileage or pay for gas.
Regardless of whether or not I can get her to give up driving I think the scooter is a damn good idea and me and my family are all idiots for not thinking of it sooner. After the first face plant this should have been fucking obvious.
Shogun Streams Vidya
She should live in the village of the church and as close as possible to the grocery store/pharmacy and church.
The process would be:
They may have something set up with the more spry older folks or younger kids looking to do some Godly/Community service.
It just sucks to have to carless there.
I mean, your grandmother should move to a walkable/scooterable location, but the only places like that are the colleges.
Yeah, pretty much the entirety of the US is terrible outside of the largeeeee metropolitan areas. The midwest is pretty much barren for that kind of urban living.
There is no 'village' there is Knoxville. Capital of rural sprawl. If you don't have a car here you are going to have serious problems with daily life. The area immediately surrounding the church is an enormous, sprawling wealthy neighborhood. Like the wealthiest spot in Knoxville. She could never afford to purchase a home there, and she probably wouldn't want to anyway. She also cannot live by herself. We will not even let her spend the night in her home by herself. If my aunt is travelling someone goes over to stay with her.
@michaellc I've asked my Gran about this. She commutes to the church from another county so it would involve finding someone else within our town who was agreeable and also attends that church. She claims she doesn't know of anyone, but I haven't looked into it beyond that. It also isn't just about church, that is just the weekly sunday thing that always has to be sorted out. There would still be every other thing she needs or wants to do.
@hsu carless is a serious disadvantage in this area. It is almost a death knell in terms of supporting one's self.
Shogun Streams Vidya
You're already at the stage since you don't want her by herself (family member living with her) but that means she's going to need to give up driving and going to her church. If it's a county over, then, I'm sorry there really isn't a solution, especially if you feel she's unsafe to drive.
You may want to discuss that with her and see what she'd prefer to do, just make sure "car" and "driving" are off the table and are no longer options for her in her state of well being and age.
Those are pretty much your only options besides "keeps driving" the scooter isn't going to help her be any less danger to herself, others, or anything really, you still need someone to help you with the car part in most cases.
She may even find a nursing home that has an agreeable church to her, or they shuttle people to a church.
It may be a disadvantage and death knell, but old people cannot drive forever, it's good to address this ASAP because it's going to happen even if you disagree with the advice or not, even if it's in 10 years.
This is a near-infractable Bad Idea for just... so many reasons. Don't do this.
I don't see why. OP is concerced his grandmother is an impaired driver who is a hazard to herself and others. If police observe she is, then she's off the road. If not, she drives away no harm done and OP can rest esasy.
...because if she's not drunk, the police will just turn around and nail him for filing a false report, among other things? The OP just wants to convince his grandmother to stop driving, not get her arrested.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
You don't.. see why it's a bad idea to call the police and tell them that his grandmother is driving drunk when he knows for a fact that she isn't?
I mean maybe he could explain the possibility and dangers of actually getting a DUI to her, or as others have said, get a doctor to explain the dangers of her health and driving etc.
But actually calling the cops on your grandma and expecting a good result out of it seems incredibly dumb.
She's not under the influence, though. There's nothing in her system that would make her qualify for that particular charge. There has to be something in your system that is making you drive like an idiot. If she's not on anything, then the police will just nail the OP with a charge of making a false police report, not to mention all the drama it would cause among their family.
Ceres has it right- this is a capital Bad Idea. Stick to talking with doctors and trying to get her license pulled legally.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
Best thing I can think of is get a doctor saying that she is not allowed to be driving, this will not revoke her license and also will not get in trouble with police. But if documented can cause a huge nightmare for insurance of something does happen, enough depending on circumstances to bankrupt a person. (This mostly pertains to seizures where you are not allowed to drive for 90 days, but could be for other medical reasons).
For calling the cops comment, I don't see it being all that stupid as people are making it sound. Just don't tell the police a lie... You know she is driving to church, get on road and if she is swerving driving recklessly call the non-emergency number and report the person swerving on the road. Than the cops will determine its not a drunk at 7am its an old blind lady that needs license revoked.
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