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[Wildstar] Everybody's dead, Dave.

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  • Crippl3Crippl3 oh noRegistered User regular
    That stuff about Paragon conflicts with basically everything I've read/seen since the game closed but I don't doubt the rest of it

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    It kind of lines up with nerdSlayer's Death of a Game: Wildstar from a couple months back and seems to fill in some of the information gaps from his essay.

    https://youtu.be/ru0dXDz9qoY

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    I mean, after you got to take a step back from the game when it started to shit the bed, a lot of that became somewhat obvious. Mostly how a lot of the higher ups were clearly abandoning ship before the first layoff, and how when the game was obviously at deaths door (which was like, years before it died which is really shocking) suddenly a lot of boneheaded decisions were reversed and seemed to actually aim to be fair to players. Also enough rumors of how much of a shitshow the company was to the people working there just fit in perfectly with the amount of bugs and just badly designed game systems (I am pretty sure teenage me could have developed better character stats and gear balance because wtf was that shit even before they reworked it? There wasn't even progression in gear from raids, just the ilvl went up).

    All that stuff being true, it is almost amazing that a decent core of a game WAS made. I still liked the little things such as the way they handed combat (which while the telegraphs were neat, it was just a really cool edit of a tab targetting system that they originally had) and how they were actually willing to implement momentum based movement in an MMO as opposed to the basically completely universally used on off movement.

  • SCREECH OF THE FARGSCREECH OF THE FARG #1 PARROTHEAD margaritavilleRegistered User regular
    There were good ideas and good execution but they were dwarfed by stupid stupid design choices that were in service of the HARDCOREEE attitude. There were class and spec defining items and abilities that could only be obtained as very rare world drops, or one time quest reward options. 40 man raids were a thing they thought were a good idea with a large audience in 2014

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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    so then not point fingers but would Frost be a contributing factor the game's demise or was he just a useful idiot mouthpiece.

    my red flag for the game came when he jumped ship before launch month was over.

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    He was absolutely a problem. Basically anyone who jumped ship in the first two months was part of the crappy management who knew they had to get ANY job they could while Wildstar was still popular enough to be a plus on their résumé.

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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Crippl3 wrote: »
    That stuff about Paragon conflicts with basically everything I've read/seen since the game closed but I don't doubt the rest of it

    There's a direct rebuttal to the CoH stuff from pohsyb on reddit. Also it doesn't make a goddamn lick of sense for any of the players involved: Ncsoft decides to shutter a profitable game to teach the devs a lesson, but lets said devs go with an untarnished reputation? It's silly.

    I don't know anything about Wildstar, but I'd take that post with a lot of salt

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    companies generally do not 'tarnish' the reputation of people they let go because doing so exposes them to significant liability

    I dunno whether these comments are true, but there was also never really an explanation that made sense as to why NCsoft would shutter a game that was at least supposedly making a marginal profit

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    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    It's important to remember that NCSoft is a Korean country. If they're anything like Japanese companies, then taking their money and pissing it away on something they did not ask for is a huge insult and would put you in a world of hurt. Shit, even in the USA having subordinates go behind your back and waste your cash would likely get you fired. Even if a game was profitable, having rogue employees that lie to you is probably not worth the hassle. CoH was not making the kind of WoW dollars that would justify putting up with that nonsense, and the whole situation may have made CoH UNPROFITABLE when you consider the investment into CoH 2 went straight into the crapper.

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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Yes but the obvious response to that would be fire those devs with cause and replace them. Not mothball the entire product, keep silent about why, and sit on the IP for six+ years without making any money on it.

    I mean, Ncsoft may have certainly done that! But no one has even suggested anything like that in six years until this anonymous comment post. So it gets side-eye from me

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Not saying it's true, but it seems feasible.

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  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    It's not very verifiable, but tbh it makes more sense than the "they did it because they're evil" theory

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  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    It's not very verifiable, but tbh it makes more sense than the "they did it because they're evil" theory

    As a counterpoint, this is the same company that forged Richard Garriot’s resignation while he was in mother fucking space so they wouldn’t have to pay him for his stocks.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    IIRC, NCSoft is also the company that lost a lawsuit to Richard Garriott after they forged a publicly released letter of resignation in an attempt to cheat him out of compensation they'd have to pay if they fired him. So I wouldn't trust any hearsay a supposed Carbine ex-employee might have been provided about what went down between the mothership and a different studio.

    Edit: Hah, Axen beat me to the point. Should've hit refresh before posting.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
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  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    I love that friggin story so much. NCSoft’s plan was almost 80’s cartoon supervillain levels of dumb-evil.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    It's funny, because the version I'd heard was that NCSoft had been leaning on Paragon to make something besides just updating CoH (running twice as fast to stay in the same place). So first came the aborted Korean port, and then they nixed Paragon's pitch for CoH2, so Paragon gave up on a direct sequel and began trying to come up with a new/different property to justify their existence beyond CoH and when NCSoft didn't like these other ideas, it was only a matter of time before they decided to shut it down. The only real surprise was when they chose to do it, but common speculation was that they were trying to groom their product portfolio as the Nexon deal was still in the works at that point. There are similarities to what the anonymous Kotaku poster is claiming, but it puts a very different spin on things.

    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Oh this comes up in the CoH thread a lot, but the game Cryptic was working on during CoH was supposed to be Marvel Universe Online. Cryptic sold the CoH IP to NCSoft and Paragon Studios was formed to continue CoH support. Paragon Studios was only doing CoH stuff.

    Cryptic meanwhile was hard at work on Marvel Universe Online until Marvel just up and walked away from the whole project. This left Cryptic in a bit of a crisis as a lot of the game had been finished. So they just pulled out all Marvel references and carried on hoping to recoup their costs. Thus they released Champions Online. As an aside, IMHO this explains why CO seems to lack heart when CoH had heart to spare.

    There were a number of other factors at work for NCSoft's closure of CoH.

    For one NCSoft had hit a bit of a rocky financial patch. Two, NA revenue at that time amounted to signal digits of their total percentage of revenue (I think like 4%?). Three, they relocated Paragon Studios's office when they were spun-off from Cryptic to Northern California where the girls are warm, but the rent is really high. All that plus they had at least 3 other MMOs in the works, one of which being Guild Wars 2 which a lot of people were already super hyped for.

    So while I loved CoH and therefore NCSoft will always be The Devil to me, their shutdown of CoH was almost certainly nothing personal, just business. :razz:

    Axen on
    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • BasilBasil Registered User regular
    Bwaaahaha. That is delightful.

    Also that's why no cox2? I see.

    If the word hate, etc.

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    I can’t believe CO is still running.

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  • BeezelBeezel There was no agreement little morsel..Registered User regular
    The funny thing to me is that Frost jumped ship to Blizzard where I figure a lot of his shenanigans wouldn't fly. He ended up "Parting ways" from there and now works at Amazon or some branch thereof doing....something.Wildstar's original class designer ended up at blizzard and I think works on HOTS

    PSN: Waybackkidd
    "...only mights and maybes."
  • cptruggedcptrugged I think it has something to do with free will. Registered User regular
    Had a great time for 2 months on this one.

    Loved the combat, loved the housing and aesthetic. But the brutal difficulty of small group content just killed it for me. It had some neat ideas. I'd totally forgotten about the sub classes until I watched that video linked above. That was an interesting idea that didn't do much in the end. I remember being so jazzed about building buff stations for folks.

    This was another one of those times where I played an MMO and really hope someone takes the best parts of this one and tries them again in other games.

  • DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    I think I loved and hated Wildstar in equal measure. The combat was really fun, but at the same time grindy and repetitive enough to get boring well before the level cap. The lore and world were super interesting, but told so sparingly, and the quests were so barebones that I never cared about why I was doing anything. And this was when MMOs were really learning how to tell a great story too (SWTOR, Secret World, TESO spring to mind).

    Wildstar really felt like a missed opportunity.

  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited September 2018
    Beezel wrote: »
    The funny thing to me is that Frost jumped ship to Blizzard where I figure a lot of his shenanigans wouldn't fly. He ended up "Parting ways" from there and now works at Amazon or some branch thereof doing....something.Wildstar's original class designer ended up at blizzard and I think works on HOTS
    I think he originally was working on some new mobile dept for Amazon.

    It would be fantastic if the rest of his days were spent designing shitty cash-grab mobile games.

    Sterica on
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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Never realized just how hilariously severe the mismanagement was of everything. I knew they'd had issues, but...

    Did they ever do anything with the whole Aurin Queen as Mule bit they hinted at? There was some stuff that led me (and others) to speculate if they were pulling a page out of Asimov with that back at launch but...

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    The lore was pretty much killed in the crib once the game launch. By the time F2P rolled out, they basically had a skeleton crew and were counting on the transition to fund enough staff to get the game going again.

    Obviously that did not happen so there weren't really any major developments post-launch.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    That figures.

    There was such potential there. Generic hippy happy elves type such oh wait it's because their leader has subtle mind control powers to just make people happy and obedient.

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Honestly that's about it? The other races were fairly generic with the exception of the Mechari since robots are tragically underrepresented in MMOs.

    The chua are your typical small, amoral inventor race. Draken were the bloodthirsty fighter race and Granok were typical rock warrior guy race. Humans were the mix of southern rebel types and stuffy imperialist aristocrats.

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  • destroyah87destroyah87 They/Them Preferred: She/Her - Please UseRegistered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    Honestly that's about it? The other races were fairly generic with the exception of the Mechari since robots are tragically underrepresented in MMOs.

    The chua are your typical small, amoral inventor race. Draken were the bloodthirsty fighter race and Granok were typical rock warrior guy race. Humans were the mix of southern rebel types and stuffy imperialist aristocrats.

    There's also the Mordesh. Your typical tall, amoral inventor race.

    steam_sig.png
  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    Honestly that's about it? The other races were fairly generic with the exception of the Mechari since robots are tragically underrepresented in MMOs.

    The chua are your typical small, amoral inventor race. Draken were the bloodthirsty fighter race and Granok were typical rock warrior guy race. Humans were the mix of southern rebel types and stuffy imperialist aristocrats.

    There's also the Mordesh. Your typical tall, amoral inventor race.

    Well, they hit two things; dark elves/eldar, and undead mad scientists/wizards

    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
  • ToothyToothy Registered User regular
    I think even if they were stereotypical, all the races had such personality. It was wonderful in that way.

  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    I mean, people love Games Workshop's two Warhammer settings, as well as Blizzard's Warcraft & Starcraft settings, and they were all super derivative for a long time. Sometimes just iterating on well-known concepts with high polish and a bit of a twist can be just as good as, or even better than, a more innovative approach. Especially when it comes to world building (worlds need to be appealing and well thought out, but they aren't the story, just the stage).

    When I talk about stuff like what archetypes Wildstar's races fill, it is not intended as derision, merely analysis.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    I mean if you really want to just say everything is derivative, then the aurin checked off the furry box.

    #chua4life

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  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    I mean, people love Games Workshop's two Warhammer settings, as well as Blizzard's Warcraft & Starcraft settings, and they were all super derivative for a long time. Sometimes just iterating on well-known concepts with high polish and a bit of a twist can be just as good as, or even better than, a more innovative approach. Especially when it comes to world building (worlds need to be appealing and well thought out, but they aren't the story, just the stage).

    When I talk about stuff like what archetypes Wildstar's races fill, it is not intended as derision, merely analysis.

    I’ve long held the belief that I’d rather have a cliche done well than an original idea half-assed.

    Wildstar filled the “cliche done well” box IMHO.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    Honestly that's about it? The other races were fairly generic with the exception of the Mechari since robots are tragically underrepresented in MMOs.

    The chua are your typical small, amoral inventor race. Draken were the bloodthirsty fighter race and Granok were typical rock warrior guy race. Humans were the mix of southern rebel types and stuffy imperialist aristocrats.

    Truthfully I'm not sure they actually intended on that undertone. The good versus evil was so black and white in many ways and then there's some giant blotch of grey in one out of eight cases? (Maybe two, in so far as the Draken weren't puppy-kicking evil)

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  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    There was always one sticking point to the character design for me: as far as I can recall, all the women had the same body shape, including from the race of literal rock people.

    I mean, I know why, but it was still bad

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  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered User regular
    There was always one sticking point to the character design for me: as far as I can recall, all the women had the same body shape, including from the race of literal rock people.

    I mean, I know why, but it was still bad

    Agreed, that always bothered me too. And part of that crap was not having a female option for the Chua. The one race you couldn't possibly make into a ridiculous hour-glass figure for a female was given no female option at all. I mean, if you want to go with the lore that it's too hard for anyone to tell them apart visually fine, that's actually a funny bit of lore, keep them the same visually. But come the fuck on.

    Still, that was a single errant raisin in an chocolate-chip oatmeal cookie of glorious character and creature design. I loved the artstyle and ceatures in this gam. I'm going to remember my runs through the Genetic Archives with fondness.

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  • naengwennaengwen Registered User regular
    Chua are the benchmark for amoral midget inventor races in game worlds going forward. So much personality packed into those tiny things. Also you could be a skunk! Or pink. A pink skunk, even!

    Also female chua weren't stupidly sexualized chibi girls in bikinis, that's a cool thing.

    Ah well. See you space skunkboy.

    cBAvBR2.jpg

  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered User regular
    naengwen wrote: »
    Chua are the benchmark for amoral midget inventor races in game worlds going forward. So much personality packed into those tiny things. Also you could be a skunk! Or pink. A pink skunk, even!

    Mine was named 'Trinket Fizzlebink.'

    H9f4bVe.png
  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Thash grape! Registered User regular
    Beezel wrote: »
    The funny thing to me is that Frost jumped ship to Blizzard where I figure a lot of his shenanigans wouldn't fly. He ended up "Parting ways" from there and now works at Amazon or some branch thereof doing....something.Wildstar's original class designer ended up at blizzard and I think works on HOTS

    That's interesting, because I just read the other day how Amazon is for reasons making an MMO. Who could they have put in charge of that, do you think? :?

  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    Beezel wrote: »
    The funny thing to me is that Frost jumped ship to Blizzard where I figure a lot of his shenanigans wouldn't fly. He ended up "Parting ways" from there and now works at Amazon or some branch thereof doing....something.Wildstar's original class designer ended up at blizzard and I think works on HOTS

    That's interesting, because I just read the other day how Amazon is for reasons making an MMO. Who could they have put in charge of that, do you think? :?

    Holy Crap, first that I've heard about this. Could that "Forbes" article be any more lazy ? Come on, doofus, put in a little effort would you ?

    Putting that aside, with Amazon's ability to throw infinite money at a MMO project, this has all sorts of potential.

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