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Business Points: Fear of a Feminine Market

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  • NickTheNewbieNickTheNewbie Registered User regular
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Eh, i'm not sure I agree. I think it would be faaaaaaaaaaar less toxic than the current situation. If a guy were to sleep around for a good review, it would be a pretty cut and dry case of "Man, what an asshole, not gonna buy his game," and less a case of "THIS MAN IS SINGLEHANDEDLY RUINING THE GAMING INDUSTRY."

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Can you cite a single actual example where a guy was targeted and viciously doxxed, shamed & harassed in such a perverse manner?


    If not, I don't think this argument holds any water at all.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Yeah there is literally a 0.00% chance of any of this happening if it had been a guy.

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  • BeezelBeezel Experience TranquilityRegistered User regular
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Eh, i'm not sure I agree. I think it would be faaaaaaaaaaar less toxic than the current situation. If a guy were to sleep around for a good review, it would be a pretty cut and dry case of "Man, what an asshole, not gonna buy his game," and less a case of "THIS MAN IS SINGLEHANDEDLY RUINING THE GAMING INDUSTRY."

    I'm pretty sure if it were found out that if a guy was sleeping around for positive media coverage, he would probably not be making games anymore and more than likely would carry that stigma through the rest of his professional career or what was left of it. And the people who reviewed said game would be out of a job and I'd bet any amount of money that it wouldn't take 3-4 weeks to reach that conclusion.

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  • Lindsay LohanLindsay Lohan Registered User regular
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Eh, i'm not sure I agree. I think it would be faaaaaaaaaaar less toxic than the current situation. If a guy were to sleep around for a good review, it would be a pretty cut and dry case of "Man, what an asshole, not gonna buy his game," and less a case of "THIS MAN IS SINGLEHANDEDLY RUINING THE GAMING INDUSTRY."

    It's funny - I was going to say far less toxic, but I think it would depend a lot on who. Fish would have been demolished, but someone like CliffyB or Schafer probably would have been more like you described. I think part of what makes it worse too is there is a subset of gamers that not only don't like things like Depression Quest or Gone Home but feel the games have no place in the industry, hate the good reviews they get, and see this as a chance to hurt that subset of gaming. They are hoping people won't make games about their feelings or personal stories if it's not a safe place to do so.

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  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Beezel wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Eh, i'm not sure I agree. I think it would be faaaaaaaaaaar less toxic than the current situation. If a guy were to sleep around for a good review, it would be a pretty cut and dry case of "Man, what an asshole, not gonna buy his game," and less a case of "THIS MAN IS SINGLEHANDEDLY RUINING THE GAMING INDUSTRY."

    I'm pretty sure if it were found out that if a guy was sleeping around for positive media coverage, he would probably not be making games anymore and more than likely would carry that stigma through the rest of his professional career or what was left of it. And the people who reviewed said game would be out of a job and I'd bet any amount of money that it wouldn't take 3-4 weeks to reach that conclusion.

    And I'm pretty sure you're completely wrong. Can you show an incident of that ever happening? Or even coming close to happening? In any industry ever?

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  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Beezel wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Eh, i'm not sure I agree. I think it would be faaaaaaaaaaar less toxic than the current situation. If a guy were to sleep around for a good review, it would be a pretty cut and dry case of "Man, what an asshole, not gonna buy his game," and less a case of "THIS MAN IS SINGLEHANDEDLY RUINING THE GAMING INDUSTRY."

    I'm pretty sure if it were found out that if a guy was sleeping around for positive media coverage, he would probably not be making games anymore and more than likely would carry that stigma through the rest of his professional career or what was left of it. And the people who reviewed said game would be out of a job and I'd bet any amount of money that it wouldn't take 3-4 weeks to reach that conclusion.

    Well I can't really disagree since that's just your feeling but

    No, that wouldn't happen

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  • LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Angry people also probably wouldn't be targeting the Patreons of game devs. And there'd be more people quick to point out that the reviewer he slept with didn't actually review his game.

    Like when Phil Fish was a jerk, people were like, "Man, Phil Fish sure is a jerk." It wasn't until he defended a woman that his shit was hacked

    The other day I was wondering what it'd been like if a couple controversial game devs were women. Like Peter Molyneux. People agree that you can't really trust what he says because he over-promises and under-delivers. If he was female, I wonder if the discussion would be more along the lines of "That woman who lies about her games and tricks us gamers"

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  • Lindsay LohanLindsay Lohan Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Can you cite a single actual example where a guy was targeted and viciously doxxed, shamed & harassed in such a perverse manner?


    If not, I don't think this argument holds any water at all.
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    Tinkles
  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Can you cite a single actual example where a guy was targeted and viciously doxxed, shamed & harassed in such a perverse manner?


    If not, I don't think this argument holds any water at all.
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    Uh, no. Phil Fish took his ball and went home in the biggest snit-fit I've ever seen. He was not driven out. There are TONS of people still supporting him and claiming he never did anything wrong. The worst that happened to him, from what I've seen, is that people called him out on being rude in admittedly immature ways I'm sure. I don't recall anyone posting his personal info or spreading photoshops of him naked.

  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    f3rret wrote: »
    I'm so happy to see this thread on these forums. This is probably the only place on the internet where we could have a mature conversation about a sensitive topic.
    This is a bit off topic, but I think we are rapidly approaching a time where Internet anonymity will be a thing of the past, like pleated pants or Doogie Howser. This is both good and bad--bad in victims may face even more threats and exposure, but good because the perpetrators of this stuff will be just as vulnerable to exposure. Presumably law enforcement, completely ill-equipped to handle these kinds of threats right now, will eventually get better at policing this kind of threat. Unfortunately, it's a slow process and it doesn't solve the very real problem that is happening right now.

    Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have them, outlaw internet anonymity and only trolls will have it.

    I don't know if your comparison is exactly right, but your point is well taken. Regardless, we are rapidly moving in a direction where the anonymous internet will not exist, or shrink to such a small degree that it might as well exist. I think the best solution is to give law enforcement the tools they need to address real and credible threats that people make on the internet. (Again, free speech does not give one license to cause verbal threats or abuse).

    But I don't want to go down this road because it's kind of tangential to what we're discussing. But I will say that I agree with you that an internet where real IDs are accessible is more dangerous to the victims, at least in the short term.

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  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Dino FuckerRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Can you show an incident of that ever happening? Or even coming close to happening? In any industry ever?

    Are you counting politics as an industry?

    Because there have been (to put it politely) a few examples of men's careers being negatively impacted or even destroyed by sex scandals.

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  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Can you show an incident of that ever happening? Or even coming close to happening? In any industry ever?

    Are you counting politics as an industry?

    Because there have been (to put it politely) a few examples of men's careers being negatively impacted or even destroyed by sex scandals.

    You know, that's a good point. That IS true but I wonder why it's different? Is it because we keep needing our politicians to represent some ridiculous standard of morals that literally 1% of the population ever comes close to achieving? In any case I still think their treatment is much more mature then what the women in this industry have to deal with. I mean they just seem to lose their job, not get death/rape threats and the like. That I know of, obviously.

  • darleysamdarleysam UKRegistered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Yeah there is literally a 0.00% chance of any of this happening if it had been a guy.

    Yup. It would, however, happen to the women he was alleged to have slept with.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    I mean, a fundamental component of these attacks against women in the industry is trying to vindicate the viewpoint, "See, all of these women are just sluts. Look at these sluts! We can treat them however we want & we can present them however we want because they really are nothing but their sexuality,"


    How likely is it that any of, say, TotalBiscuit or James Rolf's worst critics spend their afternoons overturning every digital rock they come across in a mad effort to find nude images that they can then post-up as PROOF that they are just sexual objects? Now, how likely is it that any of Anita Sarkeesian's worst critics do the same thing?

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  • darleysamdarleysam UKRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Can you cite a single actual example where a guy was targeted and viciously doxxed, shamed & harassed in such a perverse manner?


    If not, I don't think this argument holds any water at all.
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    Uh, no. Phil Fish took his ball and went home in the biggest snit-fit I've ever seen. He was not driven out. There are TONS of people still supporting him and claiming he never did anything wrong. The worst that happened to him, from what I've seen, is that people called him out on being rude in admittedly immature ways I'm sure. I don't recall anyone posting his personal info or spreading photoshops of him naked.

    A whole load of his personal info, including bank details, were posted online.

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  • BeezelBeezel Experience TranquilityRegistered User regular
    Well in any case the next time Shigeru Miyamoto cheats on his wife and she gets mad enough to air out their dirty laundry to the gaming public we can only hope to finally see what secrets he keeps under those turtleneck sweaters.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    ...Phil Fish? The guy who sent out death threats, multiple times to different people on different occasions, for daring to criticize his games? The guy who is unstable and goes flying off the handle, often provoking stern but sympathetic condemnation because he clearly has mental health problems?


    I don't think he's a very good comparison.

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  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    darleysam wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Can you cite a single actual example where a guy was targeted and viciously doxxed, shamed & harassed in such a perverse manner?


    If not, I don't think this argument holds any water at all.
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    Uh, no. Phil Fish took his ball and went home in the biggest snit-fit I've ever seen. He was not driven out. There are TONS of people still supporting him and claiming he never did anything wrong. The worst that happened to him, from what I've seen, is that people called him out on being rude in admittedly immature ways I'm sure. I don't recall anyone posting his personal info or spreading photoshops of him naked.

    A whole load of his personal info, including bank details, were posted online.

    Holy crap really? How did I never hear about that? That's completely not ok. I guess he was horribly mistreated then.

    edit: Or not. This was in response to him defending Quinn, not for all the rude stuff he was spouting prior.

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  • cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Yup, his address, his bank accounts, etc.

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  • BeezelBeezel Experience TranquilityRegistered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    ...Phil Fish? The guy who sent out death threats, multiple times to different people on different occasions, for daring to criticize his games? The guy who is unstable and goes flying off the handle, often provoking stern but sympathetic condemnation because he clearly has mental health problems?


    I don't think he's a very good comparison.

    Yeah I don't...I don't think Phil Fish is a very nice human being. I've come out as saying much very vocally in the past but that doesn't really condone what happened to him.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    This was after he stuck up for Zoe.

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  • Lindsay LohanLindsay Lohan Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Can you cite a single actual example where a guy was targeted and viciously doxxed, shamed & harassed in such a perverse manner?


    If not, I don't think this argument holds any water at all.
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    Uh, no. Phil Fish took his ball and went home in the biggest snit-fit I've ever seen. He was not driven out. There are TONS of people still supporting him and claiming he never did anything wrong. The worst that happened to him, from what I've seen, is that people called him out on being rude in admittedly immature ways I'm sure. I don't recall anyone posting his personal info or spreading photoshops of him naked.

    Yes, he pitched a fit and took his ball and went home. However, there are many developers less snippy than him that admit to regularly receiving death threats and threats against family members, so I'm certain that he probably received some doozies as well.

    I'm admittedly not in their shoes, but for me I'd struggle as much with my nuts on Twitter as emailed threats towards my child. In fact, the latter would probably upset me more. While I think this is a far more extreme case than the random "you took out my favorite COD map so I'm going to threaten you" type of thing, I am just saying that the idea of someone being driven out of the gaming industry due to it's gross culture may not be totally gender specific.

  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Dino FuckerRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Can you show an incident of that ever happening? Or even coming close to happening? In any industry ever?

    Are you counting politics as an industry?

    Because there have been (to put it politely) a few examples of men's careers being negatively impacted or even destroyed by sex scandals.

    You know, that's a good point. That IS true but I wonder why it's different? Is it because we keep needing our politicians to represent some ridiculous standard of morals that literally 1% of the population ever comes close to achieving? In any case I still think their treatment is much more mature then what the women in this industry have to deal with. I mean they just seem to lose their job, not get death/rape threats and the like. That I know of, obviously.

    I just don't like the notion that is being pressed that there is a 0% chance of a similar backlash if Zoe Quinn had been Zach Quinn instead.

    As far as I know, a situation like this in the videogame industry is unprecedented, so any comments about how a man would be treated easier by virtue of gender don't sit well, especially considering a recent study that showed that among prominent twitter users men receive more abuse than women do.

    "But it would be different if she was a man" holds no water until a man is caught in a similar set of circumstances, and parroting that line reinforces the idea that gamergate is a mass attack on Zoe Quinn instead of a mass attack on unprofessionalism in videogame journalism.

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  • darleysamdarleysam UKRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Can you cite a single actual example where a guy was targeted and viciously doxxed, shamed & harassed in such a perverse manner?


    If not, I don't think this argument holds any water at all.
    I think Fish is a pretty strong example of targeted attacks. I have no idea on doxxing and all that, but I think that although he has publicly been snippy with people they have absolutely destroyed him every time possible. He was completely driven out of the industry by assholes.

    Uh, no. Phil Fish took his ball and went home in the biggest snit-fit I've ever seen. He was not driven out. There are TONS of people still supporting him and claiming he never did anything wrong. The worst that happened to him, from what I've seen, is that people called him out on being rude in admittedly immature ways I'm sure. I don't recall anyone posting his personal info or spreading photoshops of him naked.

    A whole load of his personal info, including bank details, were posted online.

    Holy crap really? How did I never hear about that? That's completely not ok. I guess he was horribly mistreated then.

    Yup, then both he and Quinn were accused of doing it to themselves, to gain sympathy.

    The accusers, naturally, were complete dickholes.

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  • BeezelBeezel Experience TranquilityRegistered User regular
    From what I understand the whole thing that kicked this off was Quinn's ex releasing a lot of private information from their relationship for whatever reason it is that he chose to do it. I doubt most people didn't even know or care who she was outside of the usual "NOT A GAME!" mumblings from the dark that tend to accompany most indie releases

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  • LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    It's clearly a mass attack on the perceived "feminist illuminati" control of the industry and the faces of that illuminati: Sarkeesian, Quinn, and other female game devs/journalists

    If you honestly think gamergate is about unprofessionalism you haven't been paying any real attention

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Can you show an incident of that ever happening? Or even coming close to happening? In any industry ever?

    Are you counting politics as an industry?

    Because there have been (to put it politely) a few examples of men's careers being negatively impacted or even destroyed by sex scandals.

    You know, that's a good point. That IS true but I wonder why it's different? Is it because we keep needing our politicians to represent some ridiculous standard of morals that literally 1% of the population ever comes close to achieving? In any case I still think their treatment is much more mature then what the women in this industry have to deal with. I mean they just seem to lose their job, not get death/rape threats and the like. That I know of, obviously.

    I just don't like the notion that is being pressed that there is a 0% chance of a similar backlash if Zoe Quinn had been Zach Quinn instead.

    As far as I know, a situation like this in the videogame industry is unprecedented, so any comments about how a man would be treated easier by virtue of gender don't sit well, especially considering a recent study that showed that among prominent twitter users men receive more abuse than women do.

    "But it would be different if she was a man" holds no water until a man is caught in a similar set of circumstances, and parroting that line reinforces the idea that gamergate is a mass attack on Zoe Quinn instead of a mass attack on unprofessionalism in videogame journalism.

    If it was Zach Quinn, the worst that would have happened was people saying they were going to boycott his games and possibly the publication. There would not be death threats, there would not be doxxing, there would not be anything remotely even close to what is happening and to try and equate the two is tone-deafness, stubborness, and turning a blind eye to the misogyny inherent in what is happening to a stunning degree.

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  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    Lockout wrote: »
    Frozenzen wrote: »
    Every time one of these shitstorms happen I wonder what I can do about it. I tend to call people on their bullshit in real life as often as I can when they talk about "those damn feminists", but it feels pointless on the internet. Whatever I do, it feels like I feed the toxic discourse, since the discussion is always forced to be about the harassed person and how they deserved it, rather than how fucked up the general climate on the internet is.

    I'm echoing a sentiment I posted yesterday, but the best thing you can do is to send supportive messages to those under attack.

    Engaging is good when it's with individuals interested in honest discussions and maybe changing their minds. Arguing with an internet mob is a waste of your time.

    Actually, when you engage these assholes online, they actually win by default. They have nothing to lose, whereas you're wasting your time (legitimizing their position even) when you could be focusing on positive action.

    On the sexism-in-gaming issue it seems like there are plenty of people out there who can be convinced this is a problem. Filter out the comments that are straight up misogynist vitriol and you see a lot of people who just don't get it but seem more clueless than hateful.

    I mostly engage only those people and send support to victims in the face of the hate.
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Except that's a totally different situation because:
    - this wasn't released by someone in the business but a former significant other
    - it wasn't real evidence
    - this wasn't about a relationship but about people she maybe had hooked up with

    So let's reframe - what would happen if CliffyB's ex-girlfriend released some info about some former hookups he had had with female game journalists? No doubt in my mind the mob would jump at the chance to slam the traitorous snake who would say such awful things about CliffyB. The same shit happens over and over.

    And the bolded part of your statement is exactly at the crux of this entire broader issue - the misuse of female sexuality. You wouldn't be seeing pics of his junk floating about, because there isn't the same social stigma about it, which is the entire point of Sarkeesian's and others' arguments on the issue.

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  • BeezelBeezel Experience TranquilityRegistered User regular
    edited September 2014
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    Lockout wrote: »
    Frozenzen wrote: »
    Every time one of these shitstorms happen I wonder what I can do about it. I tend to call people on their bullshit in real life as often as I can when they talk about "those damn feminists", but it feels pointless on the internet. Whatever I do, it feels like I feed the toxic discourse, since the discussion is always forced to be about the harassed person and how they deserved it, rather than how fucked up the general climate on the internet is.

    I'm echoing a sentiment I posted yesterday, but the best thing you can do is to send supportive messages to those under attack.

    Engaging is good when it's with individuals interested in honest discussions and maybe changing their minds. Arguing with an internet mob is a waste of your time.

    Actually, when you engage these assholes online, they actually win by default. They have nothing to lose, whereas you're wasting your time (legitimizing their position even) when you could be focusing on positive action.

    On the sexism-in-gaming issue it seems like there are plenty of people out there who can be convinced this is a problem. Filter out the comments that are straight up misogynist vitriol and you see a lot of people who just don't get it but seem more clueless than hateful.

    I mostly engage only those people and send support to victims in the face of the hate.
    The only thing I'm not sure I agree with (I'm still just learning about all these events) is that aside from some of the vindictive content being released, I don't necessarily think this would have been a unique situation for a woman. If a similar situation occurred with a guy...let's say someone at CliffyB's former company released a file with emails showing he was dating an IGN reporter who happened to review a game of his glowingly...I think a similar shitstorm likely would have occurred. Admittedly we probably wouldn't be seeing Twitter posts of his junk floating about, but I think the stupid doxxing of people that defend them or the harassment that's been happening would have probably still happened. It would just be slightly less vile and toxic.

    Except that's a totally different situation because:
    - this wasn't released by someone in the business but a former significant other
    - it wasn't real evidence
    - this wasn't about a relationship but about people she maybe had hooked up with

    So let's reframe - what would happen if CliffyB's ex-girlfriend released some info about some former hookups he had had with female game journalists? No doubt in my mind the mob would jump at the chance to slam the traitorous snake who would say such awful things about CliffyB. The same shit happens over and over.

    And the bolded part of your statement is exactly at the crux of this entire broader issue - the misuse of female sexuality. You wouldn't be seeing pics of his junk floating about, because there isn't the same social stigma about it, which is the entire point of Sarkeesian's and others' arguments on the issue.

    Nobody likes CliffyB enough to want to stick up for him in most contexts.

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  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Dino FuckerRegistered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    If it was Zach Quinn, the worst that would have happened was people saying they were going to boycott his games and possibly the publication. There would not be death threats, there would not be doxxing, there would not be anything remotely even close to what is happening and to try and equate the two is tone-deafness, stubborness, and turning a blind eye to the misogyny inherent in what is happening to a stunning degree.

    How do you know this?

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    If it was Zach Quinn, the worst that would have happened was people saying they were going to boycott his games and possibly the publication. There would not be death threats, there would not be doxxing, there would not be anything remotely even close to what is happening and to try and equate the two is tone-deafness, stubborness, and turning a blind eye to the misogyny inherent in what is happening to a stunning degree.

    How do you know this?

    Because I have a brain.

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  • LockoutLockout I am still searching Registered User regular
    Like, I don't even think Zoe Quinn is a particularly nice person. Her ex had a fair amount of evidence that she legitimately abused him emotionally, and I disagree he was wrong in putting that information online. I believe him when he says he was just trying to out an abuser. I also don't know what she had against The Fine Young Capitalists. They had a nice idea that she tried to drag through the mud.

    It doesn't change that the internet and the gaming industry is an incredibly hostile place for minorities. Quinn should have never received any threats or sexual harassment even if the evidence is all true.

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  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    I just stumbled on a link in Youtube to a guy's THREE HOUR RANT about how Sarkeesian is lying to suit her agenda in her latest video posting.

    Seriously, what the fuck internet.

  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    Yup, his address, his bank accounts, etc.

    Wait, was this before he defended Quinn or after?

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Yup, his address, his bank accounts, etc.

    Wait, was this before he defended Quinn or after?

    After. It had nothing to do with what he has ever done besides that.

    SurfpossumCambiata
  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Dino FuckerRegistered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    If it was Zach Quinn, the worst that would have happened was people saying they were going to boycott his games and possibly the publication. There would not be death threats, there would not be doxxing, there would not be anything remotely even close to what is happening and to try and equate the two is tone-deafness, stubborness, and turning a blind eye to the misogyny inherent in what is happening to a stunning degree.

    How do you know this?

    Because I have a brain.

    You have an opinion.

    "This is correct because I think it is correct" is not and never will be conducive to a mature discourse.

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  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Can you show an incident of that ever happening? Or even coming close to happening? In any industry ever?

    Are you counting politics as an industry?

    Because there have been (to put it politely) a few examples of men's careers being negatively impacted or even destroyed by sex scandals.

    You know, that's a good point. That IS true but I wonder why it's different? Is it because we keep needing our politicians to represent some ridiculous standard of morals that literally 1% of the population ever comes close to achieving? In any case I still think their treatment is much more mature then what the women in this industry have to deal with. I mean they just seem to lose their job, not get death/rape threats and the like. That I know of, obviously.

    I just don't like the notion that is being pressed that there is a 0% chance of a similar backlash if Zoe Quinn had been Zach Quinn instead.

    As far as I know, a situation like this in the videogame industry is unprecedented, so any comments about how a man would be treated easier by virtue of gender don't sit well, especially considering a recent study that showed that among prominent twitter users men receive more abuse than women do.

    "But it would be different if she was a man" holds no water until a man is caught in a similar set of circumstances, and parroting that line reinforces the idea that gamergate is a mass attack on Zoe Quinn instead of a mass attack on unprofessionalism in videogame journalism.

    Well, we do have the corporate head of Stardock, Brad Wardell, to look at. He's been accused of pulling some really disgusting sexist behaviour to his female employess that's been backed up by emails from him but he's still in his job.

    And for some insane reason, people still listen to and publish Jim Sterling.

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  • ZavianZavian Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Registered User regular
    when I first heard about this, I thought hey, since when is there some huge taboo against a woman cheating on her boyfriend, or even using said cheating to gain some competitive advantage in the sphere of business? this stuff has been going on since Ancient Rome, and yeah it does lower journalistic integrity of those involved if there were indeed journalists she slept with in exchange for good reviews, but that's a shame on those journalists not her in my opinion. shrewd and extremely crude? for sure. much worse than what else goes on in the industry? not really, although certainly very sensational compared to 'here's a couple thousand dollars for running ads and previews on our game, but don't let that influence you or anything when it comes time to review it'

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  • Lindsay LohanLindsay Lohan Registered User regular
    Lockout wrote: »
    Like, I don't even think Zoe Quinn is a particularly nice person. Her ex had a fair amount of evidence that she legitimately abused him emotionally, and I disagree he was wrong in putting that information online. I believe him when he says he was just trying to out an abuser. I also don't know what she had against The Fine Young Capitalists. They had a nice idea that she tried to drag through the mud.

    It doesn't change that the internet and the gaming industry is an incredibly hostile place for minorities. Quinn should have never received any threats or sexual harassment even if the evidence is all true.

    Honestly, I don't think it's limited to minorities either. Frequently articles come out from both developers and reviewers that say they receive so many death threats they basically just stop taking them seriously. I was just re-reading an article about the whole Kane & Lynch blow up and Jeff Gerstmann mentions specifically that he received many of them for reviews he'd written.

This discussion has been closed.