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[D&D 5E Discussion] It works just fine except when it doesn't.

DenadaDenada Registered User regular
edited November 2014 in Critical Failures
These are wizards:
4e_red_wizards.jpg

And this is a coast:
50840d1255381565-arizona-beautiful-anyone-agree-washington-coast.jpg

Put them together, and you get:
wizards_logo.png


Being a company that tries to make money and also makes D&D, Wizards of the Coast has released a new game. Or rather, is in the process of releasing a new game. That game is called Dungeons & Dragons, 5th Edition.

5E, as it will be called from here forward, has been quite a spectacle. There was a very public playtest while the game was being developed, which brought about a lot of enthusiasm, criticism, and Monte Cook's invention of Passive Perception.

Anyway, the playtest is over and the actual product is (sort of) out now. There's a Starter Set for anyone wanting to dip their toe for a little bit of money. There's also the Basic Rules for anyone that wants to look at some of the rules (but sort of more than the Starter Set while also sort of less than the Starter Set) without paying any money at all.

The Player's Handbook was released on August 19th, 2014. The Monster Manual was release on September 30th. The Dungeon Master's Guide, which is generally considered to be the third core D&D book, will be released on November 18 December 9. Actually you know what, just go look at the product page if you want to, because there's other stuff and I'm tired of pasting URLs.

Where D&D 4E had the D&D Insider digital suite of two kinda-functional tools, two magazines that are no longer being produced, and one compendium of rules, D&D 5E is was going to have DungeonScape, but it was cancelled. There are currently no stated plans for digital D&D products of any kind (PDFs or otherwise), though lip-service has been paid to the idea that there might one day be tentative plans for something to be, theoretically, made available in some fashion in the future.

The last thread is over now, so let's talk about 5E in this thread.

Great Ways to Introduce Yourself to the Thread
  • Complain about 5E in vague ways that offer no real criticism.
  • Complain about the people criticizing 5E, no matter how little attention you've actually paid to the discussion.
  • Complain about the people complaining about the people etc etc.
  • Ask if you can talk about 5E positively as if you need permission, but don't say anything more than "I like it."
  • Do the above, then complain about the lack of positive discussion.
  • Post the Iconic%2521+Ittybitty.gifgif.

Denada on
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Posts

  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Oh man, I am about to be inundated with DnD 5E.

    My FLGS is starting the DnD Adventurer's league tomorrow night, so I believe we will be doing character creation, and then I'm speculating we will be running the Hoard of the Dragon Queen campaign.

    I'm about jump into a PbP campaign.

    And finally another friend of mine texted me last night and asked if I wanted to play DnD via Google Hangouts with his brother in law.

    So I am sufficiently hyped. I'm thinking of rolling a Paladin, because I think it strikes a nice balance between heal-bot and smashing evil in the face.

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

    Elvenshae
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Are you going Paladin for each game, or doing something different to compare/contrast? I'm curious what it would feel like to play three different classes at once.

  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Hey!
    I really dislike the first three levels because I hate playing a dirt farmer. I dislike Advantage/Disadvantage because they feel too swingy in a game with such flat math. I don't like that Feats and Ability Increases share a resource. I HATE the fake warlord stuff. Don't tell me Temp Hit points are just as good as healing when we all know better.

    I dig the subclass system. I am a fan of the Warlock. The subraces are neat (except the Drow...why?...).

    I am hoping the DMG provides some good modules to fix my issues with the system and improve the things I like.

    Nealneal on
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Are you going Paladin for each game, or doing something different to compare/contrast? I'm curious what it would feel like to play three different classes at once.

    At my FLGS I am thinking of rolling a Paladin.

    For the PbP, I'm referring to Barrowtown, wherein I created an Eldritch Knight, which is sort of like an Arcane Paladin.

    For the Google Hangouts campaign, it will probably be a continuation of the Starter Campaign, so I will continue being a Cleric in that.

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

  • ArdentArdent Down UpsideRegistered User regular
    Could we get the Iconic gifs in the first post, please?

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  • belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    Paladin seems to have great flavor. Also, my table has a Vengance half-orc greatsword paladin (I keep telling him to switch to a great axe but he likes rerolling the six sided dice), and he does really well.

    I love the idea of an eldritch knight because it just reminds me so much of shardbearers from the Stormlight Archive.

    and while the life cleric might not be the crunchiest of the classes, I find that I had enough power due to auto getting the healing spells and heavy armor.

    Great choices, all around.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I hope that paladins get a fair shake this generation. As much as I like to poke at self-righteous holy people, paladins have been kind of dragged through the dirt in recent years, which has tainted their reception as a class.

  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Are you going Paladin for each game, or doing something different to compare/contrast? I'm curious what it would feel like to play three different classes at once.

    At my FLGS I am thinking of rolling a Paladin.

    For the PbP, I'm referring to Barrowtown, wherein I created an Eldritch Knight, which is sort of like an Arcane Paladin.

    For the Google Hangouts campaign, it will probably be a continuation of the Starter Campaign, so I will continue being a Cleric in that.

    Haha I was even thinking "hey I have a 5e pbp too" and didn't put that together.

    Also @Ardent yeah I'll get them in the there.

    am0n
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Paladin seems to have great flavor. Also, my table has a Vengance half-orc greatsword paladin (I keep telling him to switch to a great axe but he likes rerolling the six sided dice), and he does really well.

    I love the idea of an eldritch knight because it just reminds me so much of shardbearers from the Stormlight Archive.

    and while the life cleric might not be the crunchiest of the classes, I find that I had enough power due to auto getting the healing spells and heavy armor.

    Great choices, all around.

    Doesn't the Greatsword, with its 2d6 damage die, do more damage, both on average, and with Two-Handed Weapon mastery, than just a 1d12, because you're rerolling low numbers more often?
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I hope that paladins get a fair shake this generation. As much as I like to poke at self-righteous holy people, paladins have been kind of dragged through the dirt in recent years, which has tainted their reception as a class.

    Well for the Paladin I'm planning on rolling, it's going to be a Tiefling, because their racial abilities are fairly well-suited to the class. However, this called for a convincing backstory, and what I've come up with is:

    "Raised by his Human Paladin grandfather, who brought up his demonic looking grandson to be a Paladin, because the grandfather is the only Paladin in the world with a sense of irony."

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

  • KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    Are paladins back to only being Lawful Good, or can you still make a paladin of any alignment? I hope the latter but fear it's the former. :confused:

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  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Are paladins back to only being Lawful Good, or can you still make a paladin of any alignment? I hope the latter but fear it's the former. :confused:

    You can be anything within reason.

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

    Kalnaur
  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Please let it be noted, people ARE allowed to voice their displeasure with 5E in this thread. This isn't a new edition hugbox, I'm sure you can find that somewhere else if you look hard enough.

    am0nKalnaurAegeriArdentElldren
  • KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Are paladins back to only being Lawful Good, or can you still make a paladin of any alignment? I hope the latter but fear it's the former. :confused:

    You can be anything within reason.

    Is "reason" defined as "not evil"?

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  • YoshuaYoshua Registered User regular
    The rules in the PHB cover the classic good aligned paladins. It doesn't forbid evil paladins, but the rules don't really account for them yet. I don't think it would take much effort to translate the Paladin to a more evil version.

  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Are paladins back to only being Lawful Good, or can you still make a paladin of any alignment? I hope the latter but fear it's the former. :confused:

    As far as I can tell, you can make a Paladin of any alignment. All of the fluff talks about righteousness and justice and all that, but nothing I can see actually tags alignment in any mechanical way.

    Kalnaur
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Denada wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Are you going Paladin for each game, or doing something different to compare/contrast? I'm curious what it would feel like to play three different classes at once.

    At my FLGS I am thinking of rolling a Paladin.

    For the PbP, I'm referring to Barrowtown, wherein I created an Eldritch Knight, which is sort of like an Arcane Paladin.

    For the Google Hangouts campaign, it will probably be a continuation of the Starter Campaign, so I will continue being a Cleric in that.

    Haha I was even thinking "hey I have a 5e pbp too" and didn't put that together.

    Also @Ardent yeah I'll get them in the there.

    Speaking of that PBP game... When do we start? I am looking forward to when I get to walk around a corner and get cinderbombed to death! ;)

    Edit: And nice picture in OP. I am half tempted to take that for my Sorcerer-Bard I rolled up.

    am0n on
  • CapfalconCapfalcon Tunnel Snakes Rule Capital WastelandRegistered User regular
    I've always pictured Tieflings of every alignment to be giant hams, so I think that a Paladin that goes about honorable and good deeds as if he were a vaudevillian "villain" is my new favorite character concept.

    "You fools! While you were busy in my death-free severe discomfort trap, I donated enough money to the local orphanage to keep their doors open for years! YEARS, I SAY! Now, I'm off to pay down all of the local widow's mortgages! AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP ME! BWAHAHAHAH!"

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  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Are paladins back to only being Lawful Good, or can you still make a paladin of any alignment? I hope the latter but fear it's the former. :confused:

    You can be anything within reason.

    Is "reason" defined as "not evil"?

    You just need to be able to pitch a plausible reason for a Chaotic and/or Evil Paladin. I think a Lawful Evil Vengeance Paladin is a pretty easy sell, but a Chaotic Paladin of any kind would take some backstory finagling.

    silence1186 on
    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

    Kalnaur
  • Chomp-ChompChomp-Chomp Shonen Princess Registered User regular
    A Paladin of the Ancients seems like it could be chaotic easily. It's almost a Druididin... Paladuid... Nature Knight?

    fuck it - we all know it's the 4e Warden.

    Anyway, that path doesn't bend toward law that much. Easily neutral good, certainly understandable as chaotic good too.

  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    A Paladin of the Faerie/Eladrin courts could quite possibly be Chaotic, inasmuch as such a Paladin could be created. It's in their nature, in many ways, and one reason why you might be selected as a champion by them.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    I got a look at the 5E PHB the other day. I will say that it superficially looks a lot better than the 4E PHB did and has lots of neat roleplaying advice.

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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    Paladin seems to have great flavor. Also, my table has a Vengance half-orc greatsword paladin (I keep telling him to switch to a great axe but he likes rerolling the six sided dice), and he does really well.

    I love the idea of an eldritch knight because it just reminds me so much of shardbearers from the Stormlight Archive.

    and while the life cleric might not be the crunchiest of the classes, I find that I had enough power due to auto getting the healing spells and heavy armor.

    Great choices, all around.

    Doesn't the Greatsword, with its 2d6 damage die, do more damage, both on average, and with Two-Handed Weapon mastery, than just a 1d12, because you're rerolling low numbers more often?

    Yes, the greatsword is objectively a better weapon unless you're a half-orc, because they get a thing that lets them add one extra weapon damage die on crits. So with a greatsword, you'd only add another 1d6, whereas a greataxe would add 1d12. At least, that's the way I read it.

  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Adding an extra weapon die on crits means you add all the dice for a weapon. It seems to be a case of 5e un-solving a wording issue that 4e fixed with clear technical language. (ie the 1[W]+stat terminology.) I would absolutely rule it as 2d6 extra on a crit with the Greatsword.

    Nealneal on
    am0nElvenshaeSlayer of DreamsArdent
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Could a Chaotic Paladin work in the sense that they obey the rules of narrative, rather than the rules of men?

    It might be getting a bit metagamey for D&D, but the idea would be that a Paladin's aim is for a new story to be created with their deity at the centre of it, or for an old story to be retold to reinforce it in the public consciousness. A Chaotic Paladin's thought process wouldn't be, "Is this the just thing to do?" but, "Does this make sense as a story?"

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
  • belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular

    Could a Chaotic Paladin work in the sense that they obey the rules of narrative, rather than the rules of men?

    It might be getting a bit metagamey for D&D, but the idea would be that a Paladin's aim is for a new story to be created with their deity at the centre of it, or for an old story to be retold to reinforce it in the public consciousness. A Chaotic Paladin's thought process wouldn't be, "Is this the just thing to do?" but, "Does this make sense as a story?"

    Chaotic paladins are absolutely a thing because it's not following a rule system but following the oath system. What I mean is that there are two specific oaths (ancients and vengeance) that aren't about the law, but about either the "greater good" or vengeance. So a chaotic good paladin could totally swear an oath of the ancients, vowing to protect the light by whatever means necessary. A chaotic neutral paladin could swear a pact of vengeance against the orcs that killed her family, damn the laws that failed her.

    Vengeance only really seems feasible with evil characters, if only that I don't see evil as protecting the light.

    And yes, a greatsword is objectively better with two weapon fighting style, and I'm cool with that as sometimes I think it's okay to have something be the best. However, It may be intended that half-orcs get to roll 2 extra die on a GS crit, but that's not what it says, so we went with RAW. I like this because, for half orcs, it's now a choice. Reroll those ones and twos more often with a GS, or roll bigger dice when you crit? YMMV.

  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Lawful doesn't necessarily mean you follow "The Law." Lawful is more, you follow a structured system. It's the whole Darth Vader is Lawful Evil thing. He's Lawful because he follows a code of conduct, even if that code of conduct isn't what we'd consider "Law Abiding." So, if your character follows any kind of structured system that heavily influences their actions, they are Lawful, not Chaotic. This could include an oath, pending on what that oath is.

    YoshuaArdentShadowen
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Could a Chaotic Paladin work in the sense that they obey the rules of narrative, rather than the rules of men?

    It might be getting a bit metagamey for D&D, but the idea would be that a Paladin's aim is for a new story to be created with their deity at the centre of it, or for an old story to be retold to reinforce it in the public consciousness. A Chaotic Paladin's thought process wouldn't be, "Is this the just thing to do?" but, "Does this make sense as a story?"

    One of the villains in Order of the Stick is focused on being the best villain in a story possible, so this is totally a way someone should play a Paladin.

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

    Fuselage
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Also, I don't have the Basic Rules in front of me, but from the old playtest package on critical hits:
    In addition, the target takes extra damage. Roll One of the attack’s damage dice, and add it to the damage. For example, if your attack normally deals 2d6 + 2 Piercing damage, you would roll one extra d6 and add it to the damage of a critical hit.

    Assuming this carried over, it seems like belligerent's interpretation may be correct.

  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    The crit rules are different now.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Oh man, when we played we had one of those guys who takes forever to make up his mind, forever to roll the dice and all that jazz. Of course he was playing a wild mage so he had more rolls to make and more things that had to be tediously looked up in books. Felt like taking a nap whenever his turn came up.

  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    The crit rules are different now.

    F*#^$().

    Okay. Then apparently I need to put a copy of the new rules on my flash drive (work blocks it) so I know what I am talking about next time. =P

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    I don't like that Feats and Ability Increases share a resource.

    This is something I don't mind so much.
    I'm bothered by the fact that there are no free Feats at first level, as this means you're stuck with background/class/race choices at level 1, with class (and any relevant class choices) being the only decision that really affects battle playstyle. So if you're a melee fighter, you just run at things and hit things (and die).
    But as for Feats and Ability Increases sharing a resource, I think at least some of the Feats hit a good balance with a straight Ability Increase, or at least they did.

    I think at level 4 I took Heavy Armour mastery as a melee fighter in the playtest. This gave proficiency in the armour, effectively increasing my AC, and resistance (of some kind) to all physical damage. It didn't matter that I'd traded in the +1 to attack, when I had received +1 to AC and huge damage soak instead.
    Now, this Feat may have been a great pick for my char, but most Feats looked to provide either really powerful benefits such as above, where I couldn't really tell if the bonus would match the ability increase I was trading up, or the Feat ability was more a utility power and it still gave you a single point ability increase.

    So, if a Feat can provide as much usefulness in combat as a straight +1 to hit in combat, then I'm fine with trading that +1 in.
    But that means we give up variety at the low levels, as the Feats are "too powerful" to give out for free.

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  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Solution: Start at Level 4. Now you get a free feat -and- better survivability!

    GethNealnealElvenshaeKalnaurSlayer of DreamsArdent
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    am0n wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Are you going Paladin for each game, or doing something different to compare/contrast? I'm curious what it would feel like to play three different classes at once.

    At my FLGS I am thinking of rolling a Paladin.

    For the PbP, I'm referring to Barrowtown, wherein I created an Eldritch Knight, which is sort of like an Arcane Paladin.

    For the Google Hangouts campaign, it will probably be a continuation of the Starter Campaign, so I will continue being a Cleric in that.

    Haha I was even thinking "hey I have a 5e pbp too" and didn't put that together.

    Also @Ardent yeah I'll get them in the there.

    Speaking of that PBP game... When do we start? I am looking forward to when I get to walk around a corner and get cinderbombed to death! ;)

    Edit: And nice picture in OP. I am half tempted to take that for my Sorcerer-Bard I rolled up.

    Soon! I think I'm just waiting on Tox's sheet and then we should be good to go.

  • NyhtNyht Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I hope that paladins get a fair shake this generation. As much as I like to poke at self-righteous holy people, paladins have been kind of dragged through the dirt in recent years, which has tainted their reception as a class.

    The whole Green Knight/ Fey Knight thing for the Ancient One oath is going to be a huge thing in the game I'm running too. That just sounds AMAZINGLY cool and flavorful for the elves/fey. I've always wanted more for the paladins and this is doing a great job. 4e did too with getting rid of the alignment of LG only and this is continuing that for me.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Denada, the title change. <3

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  • Fleur de AlysFleur de Alys Biohacker Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    3E had a chaotic good paladin of freedom. I multiclassed one with my aasimar divine bard (she had lillend blood).

    You have to be careful not to extrapolate too far with chaotic's definition. If you go too strongly toward "lives by no rules even of their own" you eventually reach a point where only the insane and the magical / fantastic could ever be chaotic. Everyone behaves according to some internal system of guidance.

    In 4E, Heartwarder was a paladin paragon path. Sune is chaotic good. Requiring her paladins to be LG makes less sense then having them match her alignment, I think.

    I'd assume 5E would permit these same character concepts?

    Fleur de Alys on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    3E actually had Dragon Magazine write ups of every alignments paladins.

  • NyhtNyht Registered User regular
    3E actually had Dragon Magazine write ups of every alignments paladins.

    I saw some of it creeping into 3e later on but I'm more speaking to initial release of the class I suppose. Plus, the paladin wasn't too exciting in 3rd for me anyway.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Nyht wrote: »
    3E actually had Dragon Magazine write ups of every alignments paladins.

    I saw some of it creeping into 3e later on but I'm more speaking to initial release of the class I suppose. Plus, the paladin wasn't too exciting in 3rd for me anyway.

    The default one was really kinda bound by tradition until they started exploring the spell space for them.

    All the alternate alignment ones were a bit better flavor wise for not having to adhere to all the previous traditions that are of practical application (Remove disease? Oh YEAH!)

This discussion has been closed.